Radial Arm Saws Obsolete? Check this:
In a sidebar to my RAS post, I found this little column while browsing through the Delta site. I think this unbiased skit will cover some of the things we have been discussing in the Radial Arm Saw post.
Radial Arm Saw Owners Unite
We got a lot of very strong opinions about the obsolescence of radial arm saws (RAS). It was far and away the topic that drew the most response from readers last time out. Most of the comments were passionate RAS supporters. We received 23 messages from this camp, and only three flat-out didn’t like the radial arm saw. With some qualifications and reservations, the rest saw it as a still useful tool if properly tuned and set up. Here are the detractors:
“My sliding compound miter saw does everything but rip and make overhead dadoes. It is far more accurate than a radial arm saw.”
“I got rid of my commercial radial arm saw three years ago and got a top of the line sliding compound miter saw. I have reduced the number of minor accidents in my shop to the point where a first aid kit has lasted more than two years. The miter saw will do all of the cross cutting that I normally require for a project and, with a little patience, can be set far more easily and accurately than my old radial arm saw…I would not go back to a radial arm saw at this point in my woodworking, even though the doctors at the emergency room say they miss me.”
We’ve decided not to include all 20 of the RAS boosters here, but here’s a sampling of what they said. Most had been using radial arm saws for upwards of 20 years, and most lauded its multiplicity of uses.
“I am an amateur woodworker who has two 60’s/70’s arm saws. I would not be without them…I often get the nasty feeling that they will still be going when both I and our more modern counterpart saws are not.”
“My first experience with my brother Jim’s radial arm was a disaster. I made the mistake of blindly cutting out mitered joints without checking with a square. After I aligned the saw, every cut was right on…the effort you put into your tools’ care will show in the final product.”
“I keep reading how inaccurate and unsafe radial arms saws are. What a bunch of hogwash! I have used a radial arm saw as a primary saw in my shop for more than 40 years.”
“When you only have one saw, I believe that the radial arm saw is the better choice.”
“I recently replaced my 24-year-old Craftsman with a new power feed (3 speeds) Craftsman radial arm saw. This feature keeps the blade from Ôclimbing the wood’ and is a lot safer.”
“The radial arm saw, in my opinion, has been maligned too often. It will do all the things mentioned — rout, cut off, drill, etc. — but what is missed is that it will rip if used correctly. The only exception is that short rips (under 2 feet) are a real hazard.”
“They do tend to take a while to set up, and if I’m careless I don’t get the kind of results I want. But I feel their versatility and the concentration required to get a consistently accurate and precise cut from it makes it a necessity for every beginner.”
“I use it for cross cutting, ripping, sanding and dadoing. I think the only thing it can’t do for me is crank up the coffee pot.”
“It is a fantastic tool and I feel it gets a lot of undeserved bad publicity. I recently bought a Delta contractor’s saw and it is great, but the radial arm is still king in my shop.”
On a final note, one message we got mentioned Wally Kunkel’s book How to Master The Radial Arm Saw! We will be reviewing that book in an upcoming issue of this eZine, right after I use it to tune up my old DeWalt RAS.
Thanks,
The Sicilian
Replies
Did you see my post about the old DeWalt? Title was "Anybody On Colorado's Front Range" in the Tools for WW folder. What a cool machine. Makes my Craftsman seem like a kid's toy. $275. The old machines are something to consider looking for since you're in the market. 12" too...
Charlie
Hi,
Is a radial arm saw the best machine to use when it comes to cutting 16 inch and wider boards/panels? What other tools can be used to safely cut wide panels? My table saw doesn' come with a good miter gauge so I haven't bothered using it to cut wide boards. I suppose one solution would be to build a crosscut sled. But then I'd have to build an outfeed table with slots. Could always buy one of those new clamp down miter gauges I guess. Right now I can't really justify buying an expensive RAS although I'd really love to have the General RAS that can cut a panel as wide as 25 inches. I used a RAS in a beginning woodworking class many yrs ago to build a workbench and it did a terrific job of cutting dadoes and rabbits. Don't know how else I would have managed cutting those wide dadoes in the 3x3 legs. Surely a RAS isn't anymore dangerous than a table saw.
wanda
I've got a very old craftsman RAS at home that I love and couldn't do without. But it only has about 14" of pull, so I have to find other strategies for crosscutting wide boards. I found some very nice self-clamping adjustable aluminum straight edges, so I typically will clamp one of these across my board and let it serve to guide my old B&D circular saw. If I'm near the end of the board, sometimes I freehand cut a little outside my line with the bandsaw, then use that straight-edge and a router to finish to my line.
At my university shop we have a RAS with 24" pull. What it won't crosscut we send over to the panel saw. Narrow stuff (up to 12") usually gets crosscut with a sliding compound miter saw. Some days (with up to 15 students in a class) all machines are in use constantly.
4DThinker
Thought about a power circluar saw (sidewinder) and a straight edge to do your initial sizing? Then using a router and dado cutter to do your dados?
Scrit
Edited 11/23/2003 3:48:49 PM ET by Scrit
Anyone that thinks a radial arm saw is not an important and integral part of a fully functioning furniture making workshop probably doesn't know woodworking machinery all that well. It's true that the toy Craftsman offerings can be finicky, but the big boys from Delta, Wadkin, and the old DeWalts are very accurate once set up properly.
The sliding chop saws and snip saws have their place too, and I wouldn't be without one now, but what other machine cuts tenon shoulders on big stock-- like for architectural doors, bed rails, etc., as conveniently as a radial arm saw? Slainte.
"what other machine cuts tenon shoulders on big stock-- like for architectural doors, bed rails, etc., as conveniently as a radial arm saw?what other machine cuts tenon shoulders on big stock-- like for architectural doors, bed rails, etc., as conveniently as a radial arm saw?"
I agree about the value of a radial arm saw, but tenon shoulders we cut on the table saw with an extended and braced miter guage. Then we cut the faces on the table saw using a large (heavy) tenoning jig that slides in the miter slot and clamps the piece vertically. If you've ever watched Norm on New Yankee Workshop, we learned from him.
4DThinker ;-)
"but what other machine cuts tenon shoulders on big stock-- like for architectural doors, bed rails, etc., as conveniently as a radial arm saw?"
A single-end tenoner? ;-)
Scrit
The RAS was the first power saw that I could afford to buy back in 1971. I still have it and I use it all the time. It's my saw of choice even though I have two table saw's. I bought it from Montgomery Wards under the Powr Craft label. You can use it as a shaper/router as it has a arbor opposite the saw arbor that turns at 20k. This was the first router that I had also. Shaper cutters work fine also. You have to take time to keep it tuned up, like any piece of equiptment, and it will cut with great accuracy. I have ripped more lumber with this saw then any other saw I have owned, and it does a very good job.
I have been a full time professional wood worker for over 30 years, and feel pretty comfortable with everything from a pocketknife to a double-end tenoner, but I'll NEVER be comfortable ripping on a RAS. I think it's the scariest thing I've ever seen in a wood shop.
I have a radial arm, an old cast iron DeWalt - 1960's consumer version, but pretty good. I use it for large crosscuts, and occasional dadoes on long stock. I can also put a chuck on the "other" end of the motor shaft, and it makes a decent horizontal borer. It's probably the least used power tool in my shop, but it's handy when needed.
Michael R.
Michael
Then that makes two of us. I use the RAS for crosscutting and housings (dados). The thought of ripping on one makes me shudder. My RAS is located in the timber store where it can do most good
Scrit
Funny how things are.
I've used RAS and Tablesaws for 30 years.
While I don't rip on my RAS because the Tablesaw is better, the only bad kickback I've had was with a Tablesaw.
Jeff
Well, I have experienced kickback on the TS a few times, but I reckon it was down to either badly twisting stock, underpowered saw (my first couple of TSs were severely underpowered) or blunt blades. I find the more powerful the saw, the less likely yo are to hava a problem with it, but I still stand to the side when ripping ...
Scrit
When I bought my RAS it was the most versatile for the money and space at that time. I will agree that it is dangerous to rip, but it's something you get use too! By using ALL the safeguards that came with the saw and being familiar with it's limitations, and having respect for it, to me, it's no more dangerous than a table saw. I have two RAS's and it's great to have the ability to have one set for one operation and the other set for something else.
RAS machines have their place in the shop most definately! They can be highly accurate and convenient as well as your worst nightmare. I have owned three only to give them up due to the amount of space they take up. I have found alternate ways to accomplish everything that I could do on my RAS using other machines, and in some cases they are faster to set up and just as accurate if not more so.
I do a lot of cabinet making and I've found that for narrow cutoffs up to 12 1/4 in, a compound slider can out run a RAS any day. For wider crosscuts I use a sled on my table saw, or I simply use my panel saw. For shaper work, I use an undermount 3 1/4 hp Porter Cable router. My compound slider does dadoing as well. Granted not as nice as a RAS but it does it.
Ripping on a RAS is flat out risky! I don't care if you've never had an accident doing it, you would have to be plain ignorant to say that its better than even a semi decent table saw with a sharp blade.
So while I do appreciate the RAS, not everyone has the need for one.
Edited 11/25/2003 3:21:38 AM ET by CarpenterDave
I have the same WARDS radial arm saw and I use it quiet often for dados, long cross cuts,etc. It's old but not worn out. Keep it tuned and it does a real good job.
Thanks Bob; It's nice to know that someone else has that saw and still uses it. I use mine just about everyday I' m in my shop. I keep wondering when it will quit working but it just keeps on running. I have been hard on it over the year's, it's very noisy but I just put on ear muffs.
Yea, I do the same thing I put on ear protection and go to sawing.
scrit, I guess I have to say a double end tenoner beats that, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha-- not that it really matters if were up into that level of woodworking. Slainte.Website
Yeah Sgian
But whereas the D/E is a heavy production machine, there are a lot of small shops out there in Europe using single enders like the old Multico, Sedgwick, the small Dankaert from years back. Once you learn to set them up they are a fast way to produce tenons - maybe that's the joiner in me coming out
Scrit
I'll be quite content if I never see another DE Tenoner, profiler, automatic shaper, edgebander, CNC router, point to point machine, or any other heavy production machinery again. Industrial woodworking requires that the skill be put into the systems and setups, and reduces the work itself to pure drudgery, better done by robots. Even at the management end, it gets pretty boring, and is a pretty good recipe for burnout.
Custom work involves a lot of repetitive work, too, and takes a LOT of energy, but at least it keeps your mind engaged most of the time, and when you're done and the customer says "ooh!" and "wow!" it's a lot more fun.
By the way, a DET does lots more than cut tenons. They cope and contour ends, cut through and stop dadoes across the middle of pieces, sand the ends, and even more, depending on the number of stations.
The single end machines are pretty nice if you frequently have a fair number of identical tenons to run. Good precision and repeatability, saves a lot of steps. I'm for anything that reduces drudgery without limiting flexibility. Designing furniture to fit the process seems backwards to me.
Michael R
Michael
Yep, seen the sort of things D/E tenoners can do (doubt I'd even get one in the door of my shop though, they're huge), everything but make a decent cup of coffee (and there's probably some Italian company out there right now building one.... ;-) ) but I decided to buy a S/E tenoner when I set up because they take a lot of the grunt out of doing identical tenons in even small numbers, e.g. frame and panel doors, oak panelling, sets of dining chairs, etc. They are standard joinery shop practice in the UK, but I do know of a number of small cabinet shops who use them the same way as I do. I wouldn't waste time setting mine up if I were doing a single chair, but for a set of four, or for the tenons in a large framed carcase they can be a real time saver. You're right about not letting process dictate form, though, we're in this to produce something different to the big factories when all said and done - and hopefully have fun and make a living, too.
Scrit
Huge is right.
I once bought a Jenkins model 90, sort of the typical old style DET. Rented a 45 foot flatbed semi (articulated lorry to you), went to the factory from whom I bought it, and proceeded to dismantle it and load it on the trailer -- by myself. Lots pf pipes, jacks, and come-alongs. Took 2 or three days and made a pretty good truckload. At least I had a couple of forklifts and some help when I got back.
Ah, to be young and foolish!
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled