I own several books on Veneering and have read at least 50 articles in periodicals. None suggested these 2 tips BUT they work.
Don’t use water based glue on veneer, it just makes the veneer curl up and be hard to handle. There are glues available that perform just great and don’t curl the veneer.
I know a furniture restorer that says he never puts water on wood unless it’s on fire. hehe
The other veneer tip is to cut smaller pieces with a regular paper cutter. The kind with a wood base scored in 1/2″ squares and cutting knife with handle. It works just great. Edges are perpendicular and the cutting action pinches to the center of the veneer. Printers and veneer industry use giahteen (sp)cutters that pinch to center. So do guys that install veneer strips on cabinet face frames when resurfacing. Their cutter is 2 rollers that pinch to center.
Replies
Don't use water based glue on veneer, it just makes the veneer curl up and be hard to handle. There are glues available that perform just great and don't curl the veneer.
Not real sure on that rule Don. Moisture applied to both sides of the veneer works to stop curl action.
Some apply veneer with contact cement. Not me. Nuf said on that topic if you want to explore the site.
With the advent of veneer bags(vacuum) guys are doing some spectacular work and some mention glues with water. So... I guess I'll go on with the old standby hide glue.
good luck
dan
Edited 11/17/2009 10:14 am ET by danmart
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your reply.
I agree contact cement and veneer don't mix. My suggestion in my initial post was to buy what the vacuum press folks have to sell. It does NOT contain water. And for good reason. I still don't know why magazines and books suggest water based glues when truely a COMPETENT author who has and ,been there done that, SHOULD start off by saying in chapter one....DON"T use water based glues on veneer. If you do, taped bookmatch and slip match seams they will seperate. It does not matter if it's alphatic or plastic resin, if it's water based it has no business being on veneer.
If a guy decides to use water based glues, it helps a great deal and with usual success to burnish the veneer tape with a hardwood wallpaper roller but it still is lame compared to non water based glues.
The only worse advice....is to follow the suggestions of guys/authors/parroters of mis-information that advocate apply alphatic glues to both surfaces and let it dry, Then iron it on with a cotton hot setting. Trust me...every book match that you worked for so hard for will sepreate. Heat and moisture and thin veneer don't mix. This method only is good IF you are applying a solid sheet of veneer that is oversized to a concave and convex surface and you don't own a vacuum bag.
I have read articles on all kinds of testing. WHY don't we see a comparative article on the merits of glues for veneer in some periodicals?? Let's finally tell the truth on how to "get er done" and put the money on the kitchen table for the family without call backs for seperated seams. The objective is to get er done, water and wood don't mix, unless the wood is on fire!
By the way, advocates of water based dyes like Glen Huey suggest flooding the wood product with water based dye until it no longer sucks up the dye. DUH!
A much better way is to use alchol and laquer thinner 50/50 with liquid dyes like Transtint or comparable. You can apply the dye with rags and it won't dry/flash out overly quickly. You still have control over your color. No grain raising step with water before applying any silly water based dye. Remember water and wood don't mix UNLESS the wood is on fire.
Hopefully the truth is out now and publishers will write articles on the merits of what the vacuum bag folks already know. I only hope Chapter One wil be entitled, "Don't put water on wood unless it's on fire."
Don C
Don
In the past, I've done plenty of veneering using plastic resin glue, which is a powder mixed with water. I have never, ever had a problem with any of the panels delaminating, or with veneer curling to the point where it affected the quality of the job. I do not use a veneer hammer. I use a vacuum bag setup. If you know what you're doing, and use proper cauls for a good sandwich inside the bag, it's not a big deal.
I wouldn't tell anyone to "never" use water based glue for veneering.
Jeff
I'm getting into the veneering game and as a newbie, i'd appreciate any tips. I'm doing a couple cherry wine cabinets and am going to incorporate a ambonya burl into the top wrapped in cherry (aprox 13" x 21"). I've been to http://www.joewoodworker.com and I'm in the process of building my vacum press any suggestions or things to avoid? I plan on using the glue he sells. ...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
I bought a vacuum bag setup from him, and I am very happy with it. I use his glue and tape and have had good results so far. His web site is a wealth of information. Make sure you use a backer veneer of the same thickness. After the panels come out of the press, stack them with stickers just like lumber, and be sure to place a scrap piece on top of the stack to make sure all sides of all panels cure at the same rate. If you don't the top panel will likely warp. I also recommend using the breather mesh instead of a top platen.
Glue isn't always applied in a perfectly flat layer, so the purpose of the top caul is to force the top of the veneer to be flat, bedded into the glue layer. If just the netting is used, the veneer surface may not be perfectly flat. With an oil or satin finish, this may not be noticeable (unless there is a sand through) but with a gloss finish any rippling may be very visible. My two cents.
everything has turned out great so far even with gloss finishes. If the veneer is flat and the backer is flat, the glue up will be flat. I use a glue roller from Veneer Supplies. It gets a very even glue layer. The spaces in the mesh are about 1mm. No veneer can warp in that small of a space. The vacuum bag presses the veneer flat against backer. That's the true beauty of the vacuum bag versus clamps and platens. The breather mesh just assures all the air is evacuated, guarantying even pressure. There's no need to complicate the process. Let the vacuum bag do the work.
Sometimes I get a wrinkle in the vacuum bag on top of the pressing. The wrinkle will press down unevenly, and would leave less glue and therefore a rippled surface under just netting. It might also under the wrinkle actually press the netting pattern into the veneer.
Another situation would be where bag happens to get tight around the edges of the pressing before the middle of the pressing. This would mean there is uneven initial clamping pressure, which would try to push the glue towards the middle. If the glue does move and puddle as a result, the veneer will not be flat when the glue cures.
By all means, if you are comfortable with just netting above the veneer and want to continue, do so. My opinion, there isn't any advantage to omitting the top caul but some risk. At minimum, I would have a 1/4" top caul under the netting if the latter provides some benefit.
Hope everything continues well for you.
Good advice Don. Why take a risk. Fancy veneer should be done in a "one shot" no forgiven opportunity for success.
Thanks. I've bought some of the mesh I have digested about all the info I can find on his sight. I'm looking forward to building the press. Thanks for the heads up about the backer the same thickness. I knew I needed backer, but had not thought about the thickness. Have you used his softener? Secondly, did you go with the vynl back or the poly. ...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
I have a vinyl bag. It is very well built, and I am happy with it. I havn't used the softener, but I am going to order some. I have some crotch veneer that needs it.
I was wondering if anyone out there using the Joewoodworker vacuum kits has experience with the system using a compressor. I have wondered about getting a vacuum bag-- it seems like a great way to go for big pieces.
I have a couple compressors and wondered how many have gone the venturi path?
Like to hear some feedback on that.
thanks
dan
I haven't used a venturi for the vacuum pressing, but I have used one as a vacuum clamp for attaching integrated sinks in solid surface countertops, and it worked very well. The more air pressure you supply the venturi, the more vacuum it produces. I just didn't want to listen to the compressor run constantly during long pressing times. Joe has a re-manufactured pump that is economical and inexpensive.
dan,
I have a shop built bag that uses a venturi to pull the vacuum. It works very well. I don't have need for the bag very often, it's been a year or more since I last used it. Perhaps a pump will exhaust air faster than the venturi, a factor if you are using it often. My system has a valve that I close when the guage reads 20 or so ins of Hg, (the venturi pulls up to 24-25 if you leave it pull for a long time) then only open it if/when the vacuum drops, so that you don't have to listen to the whistling except when it is drawing down. I've learnt to try and exhaust as much air from the bag as I can before sealing the bag and turning on the venturi.
Ray
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