Replies

1. 
   oldusty | Jul 07, 2006 05:40pm | #1

   Tom,              A bandsaw could work , if one is not available the hand saw and plane   may be your best way . You could also make a support sled / miter gauge that will make things easier to run long pieces .

                        necessity is the mother of invention

                                 regards     dusty

1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 07, 2006 08:58pm | #2

   Thanks.  I have access to a bandsaw and that could be the best way--especially with two people working together.  My friend with the bandsaw is encouraging me to use dowels instead of a tenon, but with the table being 8' long by 30" wide, I'm leaning towards the tenon for strength.  Tom

2. 
   joinerswork | Jul 07, 2006 09:10pm | #3

   Tom,

   Do you have a radial arm saw? If so, that would be an easy way to cut the tenons. 

   As already suggested, they could be bandsawn. 

   Also, you can set up your router with flat bit, and fence clamped onto the rail to set the shoulder.  If the rails are narrow, you might want to crib up additional support for the router's base--sort of a horseshoe shaped jig that straddles the rail, with crossbar to clamp to the rail, and provide fence to run the router base against.

   Worst case, clamp a square wooden block as a stop to the rail, use it to guide any handsaw, even a hacksaw, or chisel, to cut the shoulder (no need to buy a tenon saw), split off the waste with your pocket knife (chisel if you have one), pare to layout line with chisel/ plane blade/rasp/cheese grater.

   Regards,

   Ray Pine

1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 08, 2006 06:49am | #8

   I don't have a radial arm saw--this was my first thought.  I have access to one--one of my church members is a retired cabinet maker with two of everything.  I could get him to help.  The bandsaw sounds good until you think about a rail nearly eight feet long.  Thanks for the help.  I'll post back and let you know how I did.  It may be a week or so.  Tom

3. 
   JohnWW | Jul 07, 2006 11:48pm | #4

   Tom,

   With a sturdy miter gauge, and a stock support to pick up the board a few feet out to the left of the table, you could still do this on a table saw.  If you wax the surface of the table and the support, and clamp the stock to the gauge, the board should slide easily and the cut will be accurate.  Doing it on a sled would also make this a relatively easy cut on a table saw.

   Of the alternative methods, using a router with a simple jig is probably the best approach to making an accurately sized tenon.

   John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine

1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 08, 2006 06:53am | #9

   Thanks John.   My problem is I'm just starting out in the building of my shop and tools--I've already gleaned a new jointer and plate jointer for this project, so I get a dirty look from my spouse when I mention I need something else.  Since it's for her mother and I'll get to use it again, who knows?  A roller bearing support sounds like it would be the best for this job, since the distance through the blade and back is not that far.  Appreciate the suggestion.  Tom

1. 
   BG | Jul 08, 2006 01:30pm | #12

   ctsjr,

   The most important aspect of cutting the tenons is making sure the shoulders are square and in the same plane. If they are not square and in the same plane you'll not get the nice tight looking joint. Screw-ups cutting the rest of the tenon can be fixed and won't be seen.

   With that in mind, mark your stock well using a marking knife. Saw or chisel out the waste to form the tenon. I'd clamp a straight piece of stock on the apron to keep the chisel verticle ..tap straight down, jump to the end grain and tap horizontally to remove waste. By the time you get to the fourth joint you'll be cutting them in about 3 minutes. 

4. 
   BossCrunk | Jul 07, 2006 11:55pm | #5

   Hand tools would be the easiest way to go.  The butcher factor is high trying to manipulate a workpiece that size on the bandsaw for the accurate cut you need.

   You're building a project for your wife's mother and she's worried about the tools you need to do the job?  That ain't right, bro.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/7/2006 4:56 pm ET by BossCrunk

1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 08, 2006 06:54am | #10

   Boss

   I've already bought a jointer and plate jointer for this project.  My wife is tolerant of my tool buying but not immune!  Thanks for the suggestion.  Tom

5. 
   skidkid | Jul 08, 2006 05:08am | #6

   Tom,

   With an 8 foot long table would you consider tusk tenons which was recently suggested to me for a long drafting table and narrow doorways. 

   Just a thought. 

1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 08, 2006 06:55am | #11

   My ignorance is showing--what's a tusk tenon?  Tom

1. 
   skidkid | Jul 08, 2006 05:21pm | #13

   Basically a through tenon with a wedge (tusk) for knock down purposes.

1. 
   joinerswork | Jul 10, 2006 04:27pm | #26

   skid,

   Roy Underhill in one of his books says of tusk tenons, they should be a fairly tight slip fit, "except in Alabama, where the Tuskaloosa."

   I'm sure this'll help,

   Ray

   Edited 7/10/2006 9:27 am ET by joinerswork

1. 
   Rennie | Jul 10, 2006 04:28pm | #27

   Hmmmm..... If Underhill really said this, then he stole it from Groucho.   ;o)Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright

2. 
   joinerswork | Jul 10, 2006 08:17pm | #29

   Rennie,

   Then I don't mind stealing it from him.  From now on, I won't bother with the attribution!

   Cheers,

   Ray

3. 
   skidkid | Jul 10, 2006 05:29pm | #28

   Ray,

   It is funny in English but loses something in translation to Dutch and Papiamentu.

   Maybe a southern accent would help.

   My wife says I am from northern Bonaire because I burn easily so I am a hopeless case.

   Pasa bon dia.

6. 
   mudman | Jul 08, 2006 06:13am | #7

   I'd use a Radial Arm Saw, but I assume you don't have one. So then I would probably use a router and a simple one time jig. Joint and plane two boards 1/4" wider than the rails are thick and about a foot long. Use the flattest surface you have clamp the rail down and clamp the two guide boards to the table on either side of the rail. then set base of the router on the guide boards set the depth of cut  and rout the waste out. use a simple stop clamped to the rail to control the leingth of the tennon. You will have to make another set of guide boards for the cheeks if there are any.

   The band saw is another option and I have done it a few times but I think 8 feet is too long for that aproach, and you generally need a hand plane to clean it up.

   Mike

   Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

7. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Jul 08, 2006 05:36pm | #14

   Do you have a router?  If you do, you can use it to machine the tenon.  Or if it is a plunge router, you can use it to cut mortises in both pieces, and use a loose tenon.

1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 08, 2006 06:12pm | #15

   Jamie

   I've thought about this one--seems to be a good safe way to accomplish the task.  There is a video on FWW that shows how to make floating tenon joints using the router.  Think I'll go give it a view again. Thanks.  Tom

1. 
   sapwood | Jul 08, 2006 07:40pm | #17

   Using a router on this is nuts. Too much noise and dust and time consuming. I love using floating tennons but to cut one on the end of an 8' board will require you hold the router horizontal or work from a ladder with the stock vertical. Both approaches are awkward. Any sharp saw will cut the shoulders. I'd use my tablesaw and sled or you could use a power circular saw. A hand saw of any sort will work great. Eight foot long is certainly not too long to handle in the bandsaw to cut the cheeks. Use an auxiliary support on the free end, then all you have to do is guide and push.

8. 
   pins | Jul 08, 2006 07:24pm | #16

   I made my wife an 8' sewing table with drop down leaves on each side and even though the table open is wider than 4' the base is only 6' long with 3 1/2" square legs and the rails are about 67". The top is 27" wide with the leaves down and the base is 23" deep. The leaves are about 13" each. The table heighth is about 36" because my wife is tall and she uses it to cut out patterns, etc, and its plenty stable for her purposes.

   The point is that if your are building an 8' table you don't need, IMO,
   8' rails and certainly 5 1/2' rails are easier to cut tenons on than 8' rails.

   John

1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 08, 2006 07:42pm | #18

   John

   Thanks for the reply.  In my initial design, the legs (3" inside tapered to 1.75") are inset 3" from the ends and sides, so the rails are "only" 7 feet long on the long side, if the math in my head is correct--my drawing is downstairs.  The top is going to be 30" wide and 8' long and 30" high--she wants to put her surger, sewing machine and embrodery machine all in a row.  She is happy with the design size.  If you have  photo of your table I'd love to see it.  On paper, I want the proportions to look right and I want the table to be stable enough so that it won't be prone to tipping, thus the wide footprint.  Plus, I didn't want her to have to wrestle with a table leg in her way.   Thanks again for the reply--you've got me thinking!  Tom

1. 
   pins | Jul 08, 2006 10:01pm | #20

   OK. When I get a minute I take a picture but it will be in place and
   with all the sewing stuff on and around it.John

2. 
   pins | Jul 08, 2006 10:34pm | #21

   As promised, with sewing 'work in progress' and storage.The top is white ash, the legs dyed poplar and the rails mortised and pinned.John

   
1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 09, 2006 03:48am | #22

   John

   Thanks for the photos.  I'm inspired even more.  Nice work.  Tom

1. 
   highfigh | Jul 09, 2006 06:23pm | #23

   A router was suggested with loose tenons, but if you make the tenon with the router and cut the mortice in the cap end, you won't make as much noise and dust to bother the person who doesn't think you should do it that way. It's your project, not theirs. Personally, if you don't want to use biscuits (which would work well if the expansion/contraction aren't a problem) routing the tenon on the ends of the top and the mortice would be the way to go. Centering the mortice is pretty easy and the depth can be reached in stages if you don't have a plunge router. If you don't have a router at all, you could use bed bolts and plug the holes or knock-down inserts with thread lock on the bolts. As you can see, there are as many ways to do this as there are people who will add their two cents, so use what you have if you aren't able to go nuts buying tools. Just remember that cross-grain expansion could come into the picture if the room where the table will live has wide variances in humidity, so allow for that when you assemble it by leaving the tenon(s) a bit shorter than the mortice(s) and make sure the moisture content of the wood is low when you assemble it.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   QCInspector | Jul 08, 2006 07:54pm | #19

   You have stated that you have a plate joiner, and at the risk of riling up the masses, I'm going to tell you to use it. A pair of the #20 biscuits at each joint will give you a joint that will outlast your Mother in Law. There have been articles in the past in FWW outlining the holding ability of biscuits including for joints in chairs and doors. However if you believe that tenons are the way to go then use any of the methods previously suggested. All will work nicely.

9. 
   Little_Joe | Jul 09, 2006 08:03pm | #24

   Have you actually tested how you would get the table through the doorways in her house, down a possible hall, going around corners, etc.??

   I made my wife a nice huge sewing desk years ago... (in the garage)...

   When the proud moment came to give it to her, we couldn't get it into the house at all!! Would not fit through any windows or doors...
   Sad... very sad day...

   May I suggest a series of smaller units tied together with the special fasteners, etc. for that purpose, covered by one long top (providing you can turn all of the curves / corners).

   You could design it so that the modules could be arranged in various sequences to meet her desires.

   Just a little food for thought for you...

   Good luck,
   LJ

1. 
   ctsjr | Jul 09, 2006 10:21pm | #25

   Because she lives in a different location, I'm going to have to finish the assembly at her house.  The table will be able to be moved out of her house or vice versa with some effort--already thought about that aspect.  Thanks for the double check.  Tom