I’m in the process of finishing a hope chest and am stuck. I’m finishing with a four step process:
1. Oil stain
2. De-waxed shellac
3. Gel Stain
4. Wipe-on Poly
Unfortunately the local Woodcraft (the only place in Salt Lake City that I have found with de-waxed shellac) is closed until Wednesday, and I was hoping to have this project finished by then! Here’s my question:
What would happen if I skipped the shellac step? Can I substitute a coat of the wipe-on poly for the shellac and then apply the gel stain over it? What other options do I have?
Replies
Have you tried a sample without anything between the two stains? Gel stain doesn't penetrate much so you may not need a penetration blocking layer which the shellac provides.
But doesn't some paint store in Salt Lake sell Zinsser's Seal Coat.? I'd call around for that. Or use the aerosol shellac from Zinsser. Its also dewaxed.
I didn't realize the aerosol shellac is all dewaxed. HD and Lowe's both carry that. I have a scrap that has been stained. I'll try to put the gel stain over it and see what I get. Thanks for the suggestion.
(And I tried Sherwin Williams, HD, Lowe's, and Kwal Howell's and none of them had de-waxed shellac - except for the aerosol at the big boxes).
"I tried Sherwin Williams, HD, Lowe's, and Kwal Howell's and none of them had de-waxed shellac "
That's 'cause you asked for de-waxed shellac! Try asking for Zinsser Seal Coat - bet at least SW carries it. It's pure 2# cut de-waxed shellac, but most places only know it as sanding sealer. I buy mine at the local corner hardware store.
My local HD carries Zinsser sealcoat - but, it's in the section with the latex house paint, etc. - not with the wood finishes. I agree that asking for dewaxed shallac will likely get you nothing but vacant stares, but I bet you'll find that Sealcoat is widely available if you ask for it by name.As to finishes on the inside - oil-based products inside casework have a nasty habit of smelling ... like, forever. If you don't need staining but want to do something inside, shellac (Sealcoat's fine here too) and then paste wax is time-tested and fine. If you want to stain the interior, best may be water- or alcohol-based stain, then shellac and wax. (Some people tint the shellac to save a step, I've found it too hard to apply evenly.) If you've already put an oilstain on the interior, it may help to let that oil cure good and hard (maybe 2-3 weeks, even) before you insert any drawers, close any doors, whatever. The harder/longer it can cure before you close it up, the better, and then seal that inside with shellac too -- this is an attempt to seal in any oil remnant that might give you a smell.Good luck, and post some pics to let us know how it came out!Clay
I'm not sure the Zinsser spray os de-waxed. I've also noticed that SealCoat is not stocked by HD or Lowes, but my local Ace hardware has it. Check out paint stores, too.
Poly is not the same as shellac; shellac is a better moisture barrier. I wouldn't skip the step, but it's a personal preference, not a matter or life or death!
>> I'm not sure the Zinsser spray os de-waxed.
Here is a reponce from Zinsser when I asked the question.
*******
This email is being sent from http://WWW.ZINSSER.COM
Our Bulls Eye Shellac Spray is a dewaxed product. We also manufacture SealCoat Universal Sanding Sealer which is a 100% dewaxed shellac. However, this product is currently not available in a spray application.
*******Howie.........
Thanks Howard -- I use the spray from time to time, and it's good to know that it is dewaxed. Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
First, you don't say, but DO NOT put any varnish on the interior. Either leave it un-finished or use shellac.
Why are you using oil stain and gel stain.
Why not use a non-poly varnish and then the shellac "wax" doesn't matter.
I believe you need to do the entire process on a piece of scrap to determine what it is you are going to get.
Sealing the first coat of stain with shellac is a fairly frequent process. It isolates the color of the original stain preventing it being diluted by the later application of the gel. The gel acts sort of as a toner. The gel stain can also be used to highlight the deeper pores of some woods. When wiped off, the gel is left in the pores and the shellac undercoat allows removing almost all the gel coloring from the non-pored area. Any thinned clear finish will work but shellac dries faster allowing you to get on with your finishing.Howie.........
I sort of understand all that, but it just seemed to be a lot of different stuff going on without visualizing what the final finish would look like.Gretchen
Sealing the first coat of stain certainly is a very common practice, and for the reason you mentioned. But, I'm not sure it applicable here. Aren't most oil stains "self-sealing"?
It seems to me that as long as the oil stain is given sufficient time to react with oxygen and seal itself, there should be no reason that a gel stain would bite into it and dilute it's color. Not that I'd know from personal experience, mind you. I never use an oil stain that way. Solvent stains or dyes are so much faster in a multi-step finish that I just never considered using an oil stain that way. So... I'm going off of theory here. Am I missing the obvious somewhere?
>> Aren't most oil stains "self-sealing"?
Yes and no. Most claim to be but if you are using a stain with heavy, dark pigment, there is not enough resin in the mixture to truly "seal" the surface.
Try this next time you use an oil based pigment stain like a dark or red mahogany oil stain. Apply it per the directions, wipe the excess and let it dry for a couple of days. Now take a rag dampened with mineral spirits and wipe it across the surface. You will see the pigment on the rag.
Of course, the finisher can do anything he/she wants that produces a finish that is acceptable to them. All I am doing is suggesting that specifically sealing the prior stain coat is a normal and frequently used process.Howie.........
Most claim to be but if you are using a stain with heavy, dark pigment, there is not enough resin in the mixture to truly "seal" the surface.
Interesting. I'll take your word for it as I can see no reason not to. As I said before, I never use an oil stain in a multi-color finish. In fact I rarily use oil stains at all, although I have in years past... but always as a single-step color process. I rarily use gel stains either, and for the same basic reason - production time. They're both just too laborious compared to solvent stains.
As is the case with most finishers, my knowledge base is largely the direct result of the job requirements of the various employers who have employed me over the years (currently: http://ppinc.com where I am the Paint Shop Manager). I'd known that some folks would put a sealer coat over oil stains exactly as you'd said. But, I'd always assumed that the reason was to achieve a specific visual effect... ie., forcing the second color to sit up above the wood surface rather than anything inherent in the initial oil stain. Now I know better.
>> forcing the second color to sit up above the wood surface rather than anything inherent in the initial oil stain.
That is still one of the primary reasons--preventing the intermixing of the first pigments and following colorings. The issue is with pigment stains.Howie.........
The issue is with pigment stains.
So... would it be fair to say that you're more talking about custom mixed dark oil stains where pigments have been used exclusively to achieve the dark coloration... as opposed to something like say a Minwax oil stain where a mixture of pigments and oil-soluable dyes are used to create dark colors?
I'm curious because I would have expected that the issue would revolve more around the type or blend of resins used to make the stain. Like the difference between so-called "Danish oil" stains like Watco and Minwax which use Tung oil... and others which use a mixture of some sort of drying oil and alkyd resin. But you appear to be saying that it's more about the extensive use of pigments displacing enough of the drying oil to effect how well the stain "dries" because the end product has less drying oil as opposed to lighter stain colors which don't require as much pigment to be added?
Edited 12/3/2005 9:53 pm ET by Kevin
I think you're digging us into a hole here. You're way over analysing it.
Let me restate, that oil base pigment and pigment/dye stains are characterized by the pigment staying on the surface of the wood. Pigments are not absorbed into the wood. In the absence of a resin, the pigment could be wiped right off the surface of the wood. The resin is what sort of "glues" the pigment lightly to the wood. Therefore, pigment stains need to be overcoated to be permanently set on the surface.
The more pigment--the darker colors--the more likely that abrasion by wiping or brushing an overcoating finish will partially remove some of the weakly affixed pigment. This pigment then ends up in the first coat of finish with the result that the overall finish can look muddy. If you spray, then this abrasion removal is not an issue.
To clear up a couple of points, the Watco colors use asphaltum for their colors--not a pigment and really not a dye. Minwax is not a tung oil, it's a linseed oil.Howie.........
You're way over analysing it.
That's because I had something else on my mind. When you made the statement about dark stains w/pigments it reminded me of an ongoing issue I've had here at work.
I've been using an M.L. Campbell line of intermix wipe stains for a couple years now. It's actually a line that they stopped marketing. But, the salesman is an old friend and coworker of mine and he says that he's using the specs from M.L. Campbell to recreate the line accurately for me.
The problem: I've noticed on several jobs, all of which involved very dark stains, that there was an adhesion problem between the stain and the topcoat. When you said something about dark stains and not enough resins... that made me wonder.
I'm actually planning on switching over to the full Sherwin Willaims wood finishes system for a variety of reasons... Mostly because the M.L. Campbell wipe stains are the only non-SW wood finishes that I use on a regular basis. Everything else, unless specified otherwise by a client, is SW and it'd be an advantage to be able to deal with just one set of lab guys when I've got questions. And of course each manufactorer formulates their finishes to work with each other. So, that'd be an advantage too.
So anyway... my SW rep says that the problem I'm having with the MLC is due to their pigments and nothing else inherent in their stains. Apparently SW uses a completely different line of pigments even though MLC is owned by SW. Of course he is a salesman and I have to keep that in mind. But... like with what you'd said, it was something seemingly unrelated that my SW rep said a while back that got me to wondering and asking and that's when he made the statement about the pigment line being the culprit. Naturally, you don't stand to make a dime off my using MLC or SW. So, I thought I might gain an impartial insight into what specifically might be causing the adhesion failure.
Make more sense now?
Gretchen, Why do you suggest I leave the interior unfinished? Can I stain it and THEN seal it with shellac? Will the stain transfer to anything I store in the chest? I didn't even think about not finishing the interior of the chest. What do I do if I've already applied stain?
The stain will continue to have an odor "forever". You can seal it (hopefully) with shellac.Gretchen
I applied the oil stain and gel stain to a piece of scrap. The result is a much richer tone than the oil stain alone. The oil stain I'm using is a bright red color and the gel stain is a dark brown, almost ebony color. I like putting the gel stain on top because it doesn't seem to penetrate as much as the oil stain so I can control the tone a bit more by adding coats or stripping with mineral spirits. The resulting effect is a rich reddish brown color.
Also, this chest is my first attempt with this plan and building a piece like this, so I'm doing it first with cheap pine that I already had before I drop a bunch of money on walnut, mahogany, or even cedar and botch up an expensive experiment. The gel stain does a better job of diminishing the contrast between the late wood and early wood in the pine and provides more uniform color.
Good information. Thanks.Gretchen
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