Hey guys, I’m new to the forum, but I’ve been working as a carpenter for the last nine years and I’ve recently decided to go on my own in hopes of existing outside the industry of fast and cheap, good enough garbage. A friend of mine is opening a new restaurant in what used to be an auto shop and wants me to build doors to fill up the space left from the old overhead door. The opening is 12′ high, 13′ wide and the “architect” wants four double doors going full height. One pair of the doors will not function and all four doors will have a relatively large glass panel in them. I have a couple problems here:
1 – If going from left to right the doors are numbered one to four, door number 3 will be hung from door number two. No jamb or column between them.
2 – Door number 2 is to be secured at the bottom to a cleat that will be secured to the slab floor (hidden by a sink)
3 – They have requested that I construct the door out of 3 laminations of 1x clear pine.
4 – There are no detail/shop drawings and it is in my opinion a very unorthodox method of build/install that they are requesting.
I know this may sound like a high school math problem here, but I just want to know if I’m being too uptight. I’m hesitant to do these doors without scaling them down a bit and putting a column down the centre to create two double doors with a transom above. The bottom panel will be plywood, the joinery will be haunched mortise and tenon, and the doors will be painted on the inside, stained/polyurethaned on the outside.
Any advice/opinions are hugely appreciated.
Marc
Replies
I would be weary too.
My first concern would be the weight of the glass in the doors, Seems to me the method to attach the doors will not support the weight of two large glass panes. You did not specify the width of the rails and stiles you plan to use, but even at a minimum to support the weight of the glass you are talking about a heavy frame as well. You will need a kick ass support and hinges to manage this, specially if you plan to hang door 3 from door 2. For my shop and display shop I had an iron frame and doors made for greater security, I have normal size door with 6 mm glass pane on them and the doors actually gave down due to the glass weight about 5/8 of an inch. From your description it does not sound like your doors and frame will hold all that weight.
Even with a haunched tenon I would still pin them, even so, I don't think you need to scale them down, I think you need to make the architect understand that his fastening method will not hold all the weight and that you need greater support to pull it off.
Not impossible
Marc, if I understand correctly doors #1 and 2 are actually fixed in place and do not open. So they function like a wall if they are sturdily fixed all around, and door #3 will hinge on door #2 with no special problem. Basically you've got doors #3 and 4, each about 39" wide.
Personally I don't like pine for doors and I'd try to change it to Douglas Fir or something else, but that's another issue. I'd make the tenons through and wedged from the outside, and use wide (like 8" at least) bottom and mid rails with double tenons. Making the ply panel a good fit and gluing it in place will go a long way to hold out against racking.
There's nothing in your specs that hasn't been done a thousand times. Build 'em right and they'll be fine.
A Fork in the Road
Marc - This would go either of two ways. Either you are the 'worker' and merely assemble things with materials and methods that are largely given to you, therefore absolving you of any responsibility when or if there are problems OR You employ someone that has experience with doors of this size and requested performance and use their expertise to deliver a sound product that will perform as expected.
11' tall dors are not rare, but they are not easy. You don't mention the climate, but insulated (code-conforming) glass is likely, exposure to weather and finish, as well as weatherstrip are all issues - especially at the door bottom, as is hardwaring (panic hardware?). What about a T-astragal? Edge bolts or surface bolts? And the big one - what is the latch and how will the doors be secured? Is there a Multipoint install in your future? 3 pcs of 3/4" (assumed) Pine will not keep a strong wind from bowing in the door 3/4" in 11'. And closers? What about code enforcement?
Yes, beefy mortise and tenon is basic, But there are about another 20 considerations to be made before I would continue. This is a case where there is no one specifying what is needed that is experienced enough to know what is needed. I would try to sell them on the idea of having the work specified, and then bidding it to professional shops.
This is not work to start out on your own with. Indeed, I have seen often where near predatory buyers use eager but naive tradesmen to do work for a fraction of the real cost, all the while encouraging them to 'follow that dream' only to slam them with all the problems that crop up. Sometimes everyone is well-intentioned, but the results are the same because everyone in the process was naive. Beware if you hear 'How hard can it be?'
Dave Sochar
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Thanks for all the input guys.
I'm glad to hear that the assembly is possible without a column down the middle. That seemed a little flimsy to me.
The weather stripping, hardware and code considerations are all under control and spec'd by the designer.
As far as my responsibilities go as the carpenter, I've voiced the concerns that I've read and written above, suggested that they order the doors and ultimately said that I would build whatever they want, but it's the designer who takes on warranty issues.
Its kind of a weird situation, in that everyone involved is from the same circle of friends, and an informal atmosphere, which I'm very wary of, is assumed.
Like I said, I'm just the carpenter. I'm billing a day rate, only for my labour and tools.
Again, thanks so much for the help guys. I have a tendency to plan for the worst and especially when trying to get myself off the ground, it can cause needless anxiety.
Marc
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled