Hi guys and gals
Just wondering what you use to clean the gum off of saw blades. I’ve used easy off oven cleaner before and it works well but is kind of caustic I was thinking maybe there is a better way. So, what’s your method?
Thanks, ZABO
Edited 11/19/2009 3:30 pm ET by Zabo2
Replies
I use Easyoff's "fume free" oven cleaner, it has no lye in it and seams to work well with out damaging the carbide. Works on router bits as well.
Troy
Simple Green.. wipe it on.. semi-stiff nylon bristle brus.. wipe it off about 3 minutes latter.. If you have cuts and nicks on your hands constantly from being in the shop daily.. not a problem and no fumes.
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
I cleaned a fairly dirty WWII blade and a dado set with simply green last weekend. Let them soak and scrubbed with a small brass brush and a tooth brush. Works like a charm. I mean shiny clean. Wish I could remember where I heard the tip. I'll say thanks anyways. One word of caution, don't put one blade on top of another in the tub. One will leave an outline on the other.
>Simple green<
I have used so much of that to restore cars I am semi allergic to it. I get this throat thing going soon as I get a whiff.
I thought I was a smarty using GooGone. Don't do it. It took all the info painted on lettering off my dado blades.
I have good luck with Citrus degreaser.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Simple Green -- I think I helped get the SG movement started here at Knots, LOL. I use a large, cheap pizza pan to lay the blade in. It's concentrated in the bottle from the store, I use it straight on blade, only soak them for a few minutes. If you start using it for housecleaning, it should be diluted to one degree or another.
They make a BBQ formula that's a spray foam, it's pretty handy but more expensive of course.
You stole that from me FG!! - lolI've posted the Simple Green & throw away pizza pan idea a couple of times - the last one about a year ago.
Ya think, Dave? ROFL! I found a post I made to Wanda dated May, 2003. Sheesh, makes me feel old.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Ok, you win - lol. I was still gainfully employed as an Engineer in May, '03 and didn't even know about this forum.I gotta look at my Simple Green bottle and see if it mentions saw blades. I've used it for several years, but never really read the label. (That's a guy thing, ok!? - lmao)
I don't always read labels, but probably more often than you, LOL. When folks start worrying about soaking a blade for a long time in SG being dangerous, it makes me wonder how dirty they let the blade get before the clean it.
What I found, personally, was that because SG was simple and safe to my hands, I cleaned the blade much more frequently than when I used stuff that required gloves. The blade doesn't sit in the SG for any more than 10 minutes, usually more like 5 min.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I cleaned a blade earlier today and read everything written on the SG bottle. It does mention some things that it shouldn't be used on (plastic instrument panels, leather, etc) but there's nary a word about saw blades. I think that I'll continue my long standing practice. - lol
Well, if you're really in a reading frenzy, click here for the MSDS. Pretty much tells it all. Quite basic (pH=9.5 plus/minus .3), like most aggressive cleaners perhaps?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Can I wait for the Readers Digest condensed version? I gave that a quick scan, but didn't see anything about sawblades. - lol
At Simplegreen.com they do not recommend soaking saw blades in Simple Green. Carbide reacts to acid or alkaline PH, close to neutral PH is best. Try some CMT 2050 you will never use Simple Green again.
Charles McCracken, Freud America Inc., posted this at Sawmill Creek.
"Kerosene is the recommended solvent to clean Freud carbide tips. Soak overnight in a sealed container and brush clean with a stiff nylon bristle brush. Some time ago I posted images taken with a SEM of damage done to carbide by a commercially available bit and blade cleaner. It is not myth or legend that strong caustics and strong acids will deteriorate carbide. This link should take you to the information that Simple Green has published on the matter:"
http://www.simplegreen.com/solutions_cleaning_tips.php?sid=&action=artikel&cat=15&id=126&artlang=en&highlight=carbide&application=Blades,%20Carbide%20and%20Saw%20Blades
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
Edited 11/22/2009 9:46 am ET by JerryPacMan
As far as I can tell tungsten carbide is hardly, if at all, affected by caustic.However brazing compound is, so a caustic product will attack the brazing. This will weaken the tool and risk the tips breaking off.HOWEVER: Simple Green claim a pH of 9.5 for their products. This is alkaline but not caustic., ie in the "washing soda" not the "oven cleaner" range which would be at pH 11 or greater. (In the pH scale, one unit means "10 times the amount").Bottom line: I'd happily use Simple Green or similar to clean blades. However to maintain a 10x safety factor I would NOT soak the blades for hours. The general consensus here is that 15 minutes is enough. That should not be long enough to affect brazing metals.
"As far as I can tell tungsten carbide is hardly, if at all, affected by caustic. However brazing compound is, so a caustic product will attack the brazing. This will weaken the tool and risk the tips breaking off." Getting closer to the facts here. I hadn't had time to go back and fetch the origina post by Charles from Freud, but here it is now, direct quote from this thread.
That's post #58 out of 118. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I wonder what they use. Cobalt metal itself is, as far as I can tell, not affected by caustic. My copy of "Cotton and Wilkenson" is 5 miles away (at work) but I will try to check later.
In the quote in post 35 of this thread Charles M states that the cobalt binder in the carbide is attacked. Freud had some SEM pictures on-line a few years ago that showed that. If enough of the cobalt binder is missing, as was shown by the pictures, you have a carbide missile travelling at 100+ MPH as stated by Charles. Cobalt also leaches out on contact with skin oils, PH 5.5.
"Many manufacturers of this emerging jewelry material state that the use of a cobalt binder may cause unwanted reactions between the cobalt and the natural oils on human skin. Skin oils cause the cobalt to leach from the material. This is said to cause possible irritation of the skin and permanent staining of the jewelry itself. Many manufacturers now advertise that their jewelry is "cobalt free". This is achieved by replacing the cobalt with nickel as a binder."
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
JerryPacMan,Please see my response to FG. In the case of skin oils at pH 5.5 we are now talking acidic and Cobalt metal, as well as some salts, will happily dissolve in acids.I'm off to do some routing, with bits that have only been cleaned with alcohol, so hopefully I will not have to dodge any carbide bullets!
Work safely and have fun. If CMT 2050 is available in Malta try some as it works a lot better than SG & alcohol. Some day I would like to visit Malta as I hear it is close to paradise. I am in NE Ohio waiting for the first snowfall, oh joy!
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
Simple Green's Statement:
"Simple Green has been successfully used by many woodworkers over many years as a good "spray - wipe - rinse" cleaner for saw blades. When pitch is fairly fresh (typically within a 12-hr period since deposit) it is fairly easily removed with Simple Green. Older, dried-out pitch is much more difficult to remove. We do not recommend long-term soaking of Carbide blades in Simple Green. Long-term exposure like this can possibly cause cobalt leaching that will, in turn, affect the integrity or carbide. Shorter term "spray/wipe/rinse" applications do not create that kind of problem.
<!----><!----> <!---->
It has been reported to us that long-term soaking of carbide blades covered with older, tougher buildup of pitch in strong, black coffee does a great job of removing pitch without harming the blade."
<!----> <!----><!----> <!---->
http://www.simplegreen.com/solutions_cleaning_tips.php?sid=&action=artikel&cat=15&id=126&artlang=en&highlight=carbide&application=Blades, Carbide and Saw Blades
<!----> <!---->
Tungsten carbide is usually about 3 – 8% cobalt binder in woodworking grades. This is elemental or pure Cobalt. If you wear the binder away the grains of carbide come out.
<!----> <!---->
The effect Simple Green has on carbide is about the same effect you get washing a concrete patio. If you wash a concrete patio too often you will wear away the concrete and the racks and stones will come lose.
" '...long-term soaking of carbide blades covered with older, tougher buildup of pitch in strong, black coffee does a great job of removing pitch without harming the blade.' " Well, I can see I must change my ways. Being in the Seattle sphere of influence, the original home of Starbucks and the most cofee-centric city in the country, I must use coffee instead of SG! (IMHO, soaking blades is the only thing Starbucks coffee is good for, LOL!)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
fg,
all this talk of 100mph, cobalt leaching, caustic flying carbide has me most jittery. time for a cup of coffee, i say. yeah, starbuck's drek and i am no longer taking any chances on this one. i have soaked my sawblades and all things gummy and carbide in all of the above. i know one person for whom a bit of carbide actually came loose and entered via the tip of his nose. I AM SWITCHING TO COFFEE!!
eef
I keep an old drill under one of my benches with a wire brush chucked in it. WHen I change blades that are dirty, I lay the blade on the bench over a hole, then stick a screwdriver through the center. Then I run the drill so the bristles are coming off the plate, diagonally up the back of the saw-teeth. This is easy, faster than anything else that I have tried, and it is dry.
It is not who develops the idea first. It is who gets the patent first that counts. Hmm, Hmm. Hey wait.... It was me that developed that idea. Pay me the royalties.
Your check is right here on my desk. Now, all you gotta do is find the desk!! - lmao
Gee i'm thinking simple green is the way to go. main ingredient, or so i've been told, is from sassafras tree. Seems to me its a great cleaner for a tool that cuts wood (trees?). ???
Here is something that has been posted by the Freud representative in the past.
QUOTE
Definitely avoid oven cleaner and other caustics. They attack the cobalt binder in the carbide and can lead to carbide failure (translates to tiny missiles of carbide at 100+ mph). Also, Freud and some other brands of blades have a tri-metal brazing foil that uses copper alloy for a cushioning layer. The copper can also be affected by these cleaners (translates to larger missiles of carbide). We recommend soaking overnight in kerosene in a vented container and using a stiff nylon bristle brush to clean. Teflon coated plates will clean up with a soapy cloth (except for the teeth as mentioned earlier). There are commercial blade cleaning products that are not caustic but we don't officially sanction them.
The manufacturers of Simple Green recommend NOT USING their product for carbide tool cleaning. Freud recommends using kerosene.
Charles M.
Freud, Inc.
CLOSE QUOTE
howie,well, carbide missiles and all that...
i am one of those who has used caustic oven cleaner for years. i guess that party's over. so did you contact the good folks at simple green to get that quote?
soaking in kerosene ay? smelly old kerosene. like what, over-night?
eef
I wrote an article on cleaning saw blades
http://www.carbideprocessors.com/saw_blade_cleaning.htm
In that article are links to experiments I did with oven cleaner.
Tom
thank you, tom.
eef
>>> so did you contact the good folks at simple green to get that quote?The info and quote was from Frued, not me. I was just passing it along.>>> soaking in kerosene ay? smelly old kerosene. like what, over-night?I use mineral spirits. An overnight soak should be fine but I hurry it along by the use of a soft brass bristled "tooth" brush. In defence of kerosene, it leaves a slight oily residue that will tend to prevent any rust on the blades.Howie.........
H,
That sounds like good advice, not least because that caustic stuff may well loosen one's own teeth let alone those of the sawblade! On the other hand, having kerosene on one's skin is possibly not a good idea either. What else is in the kerosene (which is bad enough for my delicate skin as it is)?
Personally I like this made-for-the-job liquid, which is manufactured from orange skin and therefore green. It gets rid of pitch pine residues and even burnt-on nastiness from gummy timbers or others with strange goos in them. I've never had to soak a blade's teeth for longer than 30 minutes and an old toothbrush is generally tough enough in the bristle to take off the orange-softened gunk.
View Image
It doesn't seem to harm one's skin or make little cuts go sore. Also it smells delicious. What is the drawback? Well, it is a bit pricey.
Lataxe
I would venture to guess that the CMT blade cleaner is basically citrus oil from orange peels. And yep.. it's expensive bottled under the CMT label. You may find that any citrus oil based cleaner is much cheaper (you will)and it works just as well as I have used it also. Citrus oil will clean toilets... tubs.. and about everything else under the sun.
A note.. someone told me about Louisville Slugger ( a famous U.S. baseball bat maker) Glove Oil to use on new leather baseball gloves. It cost $5.00 for a 2 oz. bottle in the early 80's. I had always used simple mineral oil that cost about $.89 cents then in a 12 oz. plastic bottle as it had always been a go-to for BB gloves since Christ was a corporal.
But.. the young gentlemen told me this LS glove oil was the cat's meow. He brought it to my desk at work and sat it in front of me while I was on the phone. When I got off the phone I looked it over and turned to the back label to try to pick up any ingredients.
In plain view... 99.5% mineral oil.. .5% dye. When I took it to him to return I showed him that label. His face turned red and he threw the remainder of the bottle in the trash can with a few choice words uttered under his breath. On lunch break he went across the street to the pharmacy and got the 12 oz. bottle for under $1..
Ain't life simple... until someone finds a way to complicate it. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 11/20/2009 4:26 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Simple Green and a toothbrush works great but, I think the wife is getting suspicious . Hope she doesen't find out I'm using her toothbrush!
You're a bad boy, Quack. Go to your shop until you learn to behave like a gentlemen! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
>>> On the other hand, having kerosene on one's skin is possibly not a good idea either.Kerosene is not significantly more or less dangerous than mineral spirits. The two are very close in the distillation of oil process. Not that I would want to take a bath in either.Howie.........
In defense of recommending Simple Green after the post made by Howard quoting Freud and Simple Green not recommending using it for blades.. a debate appears often on numerous forums concerning just whether you should or shouldn't. Manufacturers do have liability issue's that have to be addressed and that is definitely a concern of business in our sue-happy world.
From what I have seen posted over the years the majority of WW's I have seen comment on this issue do use Simple Green. I have not seen one state that they have en-counted flying missiles of carbide from it's use. I have 4 rip blades.. 4 cross-cut blades and a Freud Box Joint set that get a "quick" bath with Simple Green about every two weeks.
Three of those blades are over 8 years old as I have them sharpened locally often being in the shop daily. I have personally not seen any evidence of de-composure of carbide or the weld from my long use of Simple Green and I don't dilute it.. I simply spray on.. wait about a minute or two... brush around the teeth and gullets.. then wipe it clean and allow to dry before I put it back on my blade rack.
So.. yes, Freud and Simple Green have warnings but.. I personally chose to continue using it until I see actual evidence from shop use that it can indeed be dangerous over a long haul. I think the general sentiment of those that are aware of the warning will also from my observation as the Warning's Howie posted are common knowledge around about all the forums I pass through.
Just my thoughts and not those of the manufacturers of Freud or Simple Green. Everyone must chose on based on what their personal thoughts are. BTW... kerosene will work if you let it soak over-night. And the fumes will stink to high heaven from the very moment you pour it into an open container so best to use it outside IMO or you open up a whole new can of worms on what can be potentially dangerous to your health. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Amen, Sarge. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
WOW!! Looks like I opened up quite a debate. I must admit that I have a couple of blades that I've neglected and these I think I will give a good soak overnight in kerosene. The rest of the blades and bits I'll use simple green, seems like the most of you use it and are satisfied.
Thanks, ZABO
409 cleaner in the plastic spray bottle has cleaned my saw blades for years. A toothbrush (not your good one) is all that is needed to scrub with after the soap soaks in......rinse blade with water after......
The guy who sharpens my blades and hundreds of others uses whitewall tire cleaner he gets from Autozone, I believe.
I have too agree with Lataxe. The CMT Blade and Bit cleaner really works. I spray it on and use a stiff nylon tooth brush to get each tooth spotless. I does have a faint smell but no where near the citrus smell of Goo-Gone. I really don't think it is citrus based.
I tried some Aircraft Simple Green and it was just OK. I did not use regular Simple Green because of some of the warnings I have read on-line. Simple Green does not recommend soaking saw blades. One of my Hammer slider blades cost close to $200 and I give it the best care I can. Some have commented that it is too expensive. To me $10 is a small price to pay to keep your blades and bits clean and require less sharpening.
Most blade and bit cleaning products work with a dissolving action, using some powerful and nasty chemicals to dissolve wood residues and adhesives. Our safe and non-toxic Formula 2050 penetrates the microscopic cracks in the resin and attacks the bond between it and the carbide or stele surfaces. The resin releases its grip and you simply wipe it off. Formula 2050 keeps your tooling clean and helps you increase the time between sharpenings and replacement. Your satisfaction is guaranteed!
-removes pitch, resin and adhesive residue from all woodworking cutting tools (saw blades, router bits, drill bits, shaper cutter heads, planer blades, etc.);
A five star rating from Wood Magazine.
-completely non-toxic, non-flammable and certified biodegradable. Formula 2050 is a safe, earth-friendly product;
-do not rinse after cleaning. Formula 2050 provides protection from rust and corrosion. Keeps your table saw top rust free too;
Amazon review below:
This is an excellent pitch remover. CMT 2050 is fast, effective, and easy to use with little to no scrubbing. I have also tried Simple Green to clean blades and bits, and don't know how the two could be confused.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
Edited 11/22/2009 10:13 am ET by JerryPacMan
I use the CMT 2050 spray and a tooth brush. I like it cause it's not caustic and it WORKS!
You forgot to add that it works quickly, no soaking required !!!
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
I just dissolve some baking soda in hot water and soak the blade for about 10 minutes, all the pitch and gunk floats right off and a bit of scrubbing with a stiff bristle brush and it is good as new.
OK, I've checked. Cobalt metal does not react with Caustic. Obviously the "Cobalt binder" is a cobalt salt in which case all bets are off as the argument depends on precisely what Cobalt salt is used. However many Cobalt Salts will react with Sodium Hydroxide.All in all therefore the use of Caustic preparations must be avoided. However It seems to me that "baking soda" type cleaners, up to a pH of about 9.5, for a short time should not be a problem.However I've found alcohol to work well. You are removing an organic gunk with an organic solvent and I am an organic chemist :-)Using a solvent bypasses all the possible pitfalls.
Most commonly the Cobalt binder starts out as pure Cobalt. (Exceptions as alloys). Exposure to wood acids during cutting will form a layer of cobalt salts but it is only nanograms thick. A strong caustic may react with these salts but, again, the effect is so small as to be unimportant. <!----><!----><!---->
Baking soda up to a ph of 9.5? isn't that the same ph as simple green?
Yes, that's what I meant. ie Simple Green is OK.Apologies if I was unclear.
For your viewing pleasure courtesy of Charles McCracken at Freud.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=821475&postcount=17
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
I use Boeshield blade & bit cleaner. It is alcohol based.
Which ever you use, clean your blades and bit frequently rather than letting the gunk build up.
Don
Another vote for the CMT 2050. Great stuff.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
There are so many good methods that work well. No reason to spend a lot on specific brands to the same job that many generic cleaners will do. I've had success with 409, Totally Awesome, Simple Green, Goo Gone, Greased Lightning, Fantastic, Dawn, Easy Off, Boeshield Blade n Bit, and probably others I've forgotten about. I spray it on both sides, immediately hit the teeth with a brass brush, and rinse...the blades are clean in 4 or 5 minutes start to finish.
Since oven cleaner is messier than the others, I've stopped bothering with it, plus some are caustic...there's just no advantage with this stuff.
Simple Green should be fine if sprayed on and brushed off within a few minutes, but since it's not better than 409, Fantastic, Totally Awesome, etc, I no longer purchase it for saw blade cleaning. No need to soak them if you do it often.
The Boeshield worked great....but no better than the $3 stuff. I'd assume the same is true of the CMT, so why spend the money? Again...no advantage unless you're the seller of the stuff! LOL...
I have yet to try kerosene...it's not something I keep around the house.
Others have suggested TSP, wash soda, and even electrolysis, but I have yet to try those either.
Anyone of us who clean our blades regularly are to be commended regardless of what method we're using...it's those who aren't that need to be "enlightened"!
Edited 11/27/2009 6:11 pm ET by Knotscott
"Anyone of us who clean our blades regularly are to be commended regardless of what method we're using...it's those who aren't that need to be "enlightened"!.... Knotscott
I normally only say this once a day and have already filled the quota early today but... I will make an exception this morning.......
Amen..!
ha.. ha..
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 11/28/2009 9:46 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Well, if you're gonna make an exception, an extra "Amen" is always a good choice!
Try 409 household cleaner; It is all I use. It works extremely fast, no toxi smell, and is relatively inexpensive.
RNH
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