I was looking to buy a PM 66. Does any one have any negative points about the machine? It looks sturdier than the Unisaw.
I can get a great deal where I can get it for the same price as the Unisaw($1800). Should I take it or get the Unisaw?
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Replies
Rocky,
That is a tough decision..at least from my perspective. Normally I'd jump on that PM 66 in a heart beat. Terrific machine with heavier trunnions that will last longer than your life time..great resale. However, the Uni will last linger than your life time too..and also great resale...and the uni probably includes the Beis...and you can push it around with one hand on its movable base. So it really comes down to moveability and the Bies...hell, I'd still buy it in a heart beat.
You are right. But, i have heard nightmares about uni quality
Rocky,
I have 2 Unisaws & 1 PM66. Both are great saws. I can not say that I favor one over the other.
Chris
Chris,
You are my hero.
The 66 is a better saw, IMO, due to its heavier trunions and better motor mount. Also look at the General which is as good, if not better, than the 66 and is less expensive.
Ok, I gotta ask. That seems like a great price for the 66. Is it a one time offer, or did you find a good cheap site? I'm in the marke for a tablesaw, and haven't been able to find the Powermatic at this price. C'mon, spill the beans.
i bought a pm 66 a couple of months ago and could not be more happy!!! for the best prices around go to http://www.toolseeker.com i got mine for $1804 through "student discount". it is the 30" model. i moved the fence over to make it 40". it does have a baldor motor... the fence is a clone of the bies, and i think better...removable faces. beefier all the way around... ( try the two side by side if you can), i was actually on hold at one time to buy the unisaw...unfortunately for delta i had been able to compare the two side by side...the pm 66 had a much better feel to me in all regards.. i hung up and called "student discount". i had a problem witrh the origional shipping company, i contacted powermatic and they sent another one to me and told me they would deal with origional shipper...response was immediate...i have been very happy with the people at powermatic!!! finally to be totally honest you can expect to pitch the blade guard, it is truly a piece of junk...down right dangerous...i expected that and have built my own which im quite happy with. as of now im using there splitter, but i have modified it...best of luck to you with whatever saw you buy...tuned up properly they all cut the same, but im very happy to have the pm 66...
I own the PM 66 with the 5hp single phase. Great machine! I ordered it from Amazon, it arrived when they said it would, in perfect condition. I looked at the Uni, Jet, and PM, but after asking the cabinet makers in my area, I decided on the PM. Although I am a Delta fan, I keep hearing about inconsistant quality control. I don't judge machines by what they are like right now, I want to know what they will be like in 10 years. When I am laying out $2000.00 for a machine, I don't want headaches. The PM cost me $2300.00 with a 52" Beismeyer fence, about $300.00 more than the comprable Uni at the time. For $300.00, (15%) I know that I have a machine that I will give to my son, who is three right now. Outside of my dust collector, it is the best 2K that I have spent! Good luck!
I know that its spliiting hairs to some......and I'm a bit prejudiced since I own a 66, but I'll tell you something. The anaolgy is like buying a car. If you always had your sights on a BMW.....and you "settle" for an Audi, you certainly won't hate driving the Audi....but I guarantee you that you'll always wonder what it would be like to drive the BMW.
Get the 66. Mine is about 8 years old and it has a Baldor motor. I've heard that the newer 66's don't. If it has a Baldor, all the more reason to snap it up.
-Mike
PM customer service told me that they still have Baldor motors. A friend of mine got one several months ago and the motorplate does indeed say "Baldor".
I got my saw at a local dealer which sells industrial quality machinery, ie Atendorf, Oliver. The PM 66 is actually, the least sturdy saw they carry. No Jets, No Deltas and no Shop Fox .
I also got the PM mobile base for $139. Not a bad catch!
Am also in the market for a new cabinet saw. The best price I have seen on a PM-66 is $1900, but that is with their 30 inch fence, not the 52 inch fence. I'd certainly be interested in any $1800 PM deal, particularly if it included the 52 inch fence.
The powermatic fence looks an awful lot like the Biesmeyer, but has the UHMW fence attachments rather than the laminated baltic birch. What has anyone's experience been with the new PM fence? As good as the Biesmeyer?
Robbie,
I don't have the PM fense but the Shop fox Classic....which uses a similar plastic face.....not too crazy about it. I'm measuring a variance on the face of the fense....enough to cause burning on the hard wood. I use the fense on both sides of the blade..so toeing out has to be kept to a minimun. I'm about to attach a piece of MDF to the face to correct the problem...which of course will throw off my measuring tape...
BG,
Although I haven't noticed any runout on my fence faces, I wonder why you wouldn't just replace the fence face all together with 1/2" MDF. they are easily replacable and I believe they are 1/2" thick. Mdf would be a good choice as it is really flat.
TDf
Tom,
Duh !...I had not thought of that..thanks. (blushing)
Don't have a PM fence, but I do have a Jet - I checked at my dealer's and there is no difference between the fences other than paint and stickers. I like the UHMW faces a lot, and they're easy to change should the need arise. I'm no scientist (what an understatement!), but it seems this should be an even more stable material than the laminated Baltic Birch.
My only criticism concerns those rare occasions when I have to remove the fence from the saw - the bloody thing is really heavy and I'm never sure where to put it.
Finally, go with the Powermatic. They're still made in the USA and still the best in their class. (Sorry Don C., we Yoopers can't help being outspoken and honest!)
Jeff
Jeff: Thanks for the info on the fence. I noticed that if you turn the fence upside down there appears to be easy access to the screws to replace. That is missing on my current Biesmeyer as they screw on the Baltic birch and then laminate it.
I will test out what Don C is mentioning about play in the crank wheels.
I was all set to get the Unisaw and then saw the Unisaw and PM side by side. The little things got me interested. 1) replacability of saw fence. 2) Left side cast table extensions that are finished on one side (I'll come back to that) 3) Polished top 4) overall weight. Probably all don't add up to mean very much, but they made one think that PM sweated out the details a little more.
This may be trivial (or there may be a great reason I haven't thought about), but what's with the Delta left side cast iron table extension. When I got my contractor saw, I bought a cast extension that had a nice rounded corners. On the Unisaw I saw, the edges were square and bored. That makes tremendous sense for the right extension, but for the left?? Could they be thinking that there is yet another attachment to the left. Just curious.
I was at a dealers again yesterday that had 2 uni's and 2 66's on the floor. Once again, as always, the 66's assembly for tiling and raising the blade was very sloppy, and the uni's were nice and tight. I'll take my General over either, but I really don't see what the great attraction to the PM is. Even the polished top is all that polished compared to where grinding could take it. Hey, just my opinion.
Don
The General is basically a PM clone.
The General 350 is a clone of the Delta Unisaw.
General and PM have the same trunions and suspension, only the General is better made.
Chris and Rocky,
You're both in error. You need to study this. And sorry, the pm trunion action is sloppy and I've never seen one that wasn't. The backlash is ridiculous.
Don
Edited 3/9/2003 5:58:08 PM ET by Don C.
Don,
General must have lied to me 20 years ago when I bought my first piece of General equipment. Could you suggest somewhere else I could get the truth.
Chris
Chris,
General or the salesman you were dealing with lied? Contacting Trevor at General would be a good place to start.
Don
Don,
How long has Trevor been with General?
Chris
Don,
How bad is the backlash? It's adjustable. I've not had a problem with mine, but maybe I'm missing something. Can you elaborate?
- les
Chris,
Couldn't tell you. I'm real confident though that the 350 has been around much longer then the 66 and maybe the 65. But then again, maybe you were the person saying it was a knockoff of the Uni when it isn't even close.
Les,
Is it adjustable. I don't know. I can only tell you everyone I've ever cranked on was sloppy. I was at one at a lumber yard Friday. Same thing. That one was almost a full half turn in either direction before the blade started raising or lowering. Whenever I see one now, I just go see how bad it is. Maybe it's just been my luck, but from what I know right now, if I was looking for a PM, I'd be looking for a 65.
Don
Edited 3/10/2003 1:10:55 AM ET by Don C.
Don,
I was the one that said the 350 was a clone of the Unisaw. I miss spoke on that. The current saw is an improvement on the Unisaw. The original 350 was a clone of the Unisaw. Before the General line of equipment came to be, General did castings for Delta. After Delta moved all of it operations to the US, General was allowed to use many of the molds to start the General line. It may have been because of expired patents. If you look at the early 350, there drill presses & 6" & 8" jointers they are almost identical to the older Delta models.
Chris
Jeff K,
Yep, I can be outspoken also so sorry. The PM is not the better saw. If it were, it's what I would have gotten. ;^)
Don
Stalemate. Can't teach a Troll anything.
Jeff
PS Still waiting for pics of that new shop.
OK, I'll go ahead and post what I have, but bear in mind the shop is not finished while at the same time I am still working my business, restoring 3, 160 year old buildings, and doing the woodworking. Not enough hours in the day if you know what I mean.
Also, not to hijack the discussion. A lot of what has been said here is about the pride we take in what decisions we make about the machines we buy. If we all didn't come to different decisions, then we'd all own the same machines. Bottom line is if you buy a 66, Uni or a 350, you've bought one heck of a saw. My comments are about why I chose a 350 over a 66, not to bash the 66 and obviously others disagree which is good.
Don
Well said Don. I also bought the 350 from a place that sold only 350's 66's & Uni's and it was a tough decision. But the 350 seemed rock solid and I also like the industrial green better than the 66 yellow. Uni gray is nice too. All 3 saws are great saws & will last a lifetime.
Lar
I really like yellow! Thats why I chose the 66. ;>)
TDF
Just for curiosity's sake, I just went out to the shop and felt the adjustments on my 66. There was about a half inch of play in the blade height mechanism measured along the diameter of the wheel, or about 1/40th of a revolution. Not bad I think if you take out your throat plate and see how many lbs of cast iron this mechanism has bearing on it at all times. The blade tilt mechanism had zero play. I really tried to find some, but there was simply none there. I then tried my father's 5hp unisaw. There was more play on both counts. FWIW
BTW, I do think that the left-tilt blade is a big deal. I don't know if General has a left-tilt or not, but I know that Delta does. There are situations when both left and right have an advantage, but I think for most people's use the left-tilt saw is safer to use and yields the better result nine times out of ten.
Chris,
Hi Don...Thanks for your interest in our own General Manufacturing. The company is owned today by the third generation of the Guerette Family. Giles took over about ten years from father who is still active in running the foundry in Drummondville Qu.
Giles grandfather started in the late 1940s by supplying machines to Sears Craftsman in the U.S. He later developed his own line of machinery today known as General. Most of the machines in the General line are over 30 years old and still made as they were when they were first introduced.
All castings are still poured to the exacting specs that are demanded from a Meehanite foundry. All motors and electrics are still North American in origin. All serfaces are still ground right in our factory.
About 7 years the General International line of imported machines were introduced to cater the the fast growing, high end hobby market. The two lines are not meant to compete but to compliment each other.
To avoid any confusion, the word "international" was added to draw a distinction between the Canadian made machines and the imported machines. Simply put, If it says General, it is made totally in Canada. If it says General International, It is imported to our exacting guidelines.
I hope this has answered your question. Best Regards Peter Kennedy Ontario Sales Manager General MAnufacturing/General International
Now, according to old woodworking machines, the only tablesaw General made for Delta was an 8 inch. When Delta quit making the saw, General "Bought" the patterns from Delta. Contact Trevor, General NEVER made Unisaw parts.
Don
Don,
Now I know why they lied. Had General told me 23 years ago that they had cut there teeth by building Craftsman equipment there is no way in h*** that I would have bought a piece of there equipment.
Chris
Chris,
Personally I don't much care what you do or think. I've owned many industrial rockwell pieces over the years which would more then likely make most of what you own today look like junk. Now in case you didn't know, Rockwell was making craftsman machines in the 40's. No brag, just fact.
BTW, since you own 3 tablesaws, why not get serious and finally get rid of your junk and get a real tablesaw:
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/4saw.htm
Don
Edited 3/11/2003 5:02:58 PM ET by Don C.
ChrisRocky, or whatever name you are using today, you're still boring.
Don,
I will be praying for you.
Chris
I've been reading that the left tilt Bridgewood from Wilke blows PM out of the water on weight and trunion size.
Now,
let's compare prices................The proof is in the puddin'
Don,
There are adjustments for backlash on both blade elevation and blade tilt. When I first got my used 66, both needed adjusting. It's fairly easy. You do need to find the sweet spot where raising/tilting the blade is smooth and easy vs binding. Both adjustments are completely independent of each other.
It is a lot easier to adjust the backlash with the top off, so if you do ever take the top off, absolutely at least check for backlash. Still it's not particularly difficult with the top on.
- les
I just checked my 10year old P66, and it has no backlash. 0.
I can live with that.
Can someone please tell me what the Unisaw "thump" is? It was previously mentioned as a commonplace occurence.
Sounds like you got PM66 envy.
Rocky,
Your getting boring.
Don
I've worked In shops that had generals, deltas, and powermatics. If you use to right tilters your probably a delta person. I like left tilts so I compared the general with the powermatic and just don't see how the general 350 is really any better than a Jet, Sorry, I'm not saying the saw sucks It's just not in the delta class much less the powermatic class. The last general I worked around was a lonely tool.
I have a general contracter saw because it was cheaper than the powermatic (Yeah the general looks like a knockoff) I planned on getting. The general is as sloppy as it gets and I have had many other stupid problems with the saw. Like the disk at the end of my miter fence stripped out, Very little clearence for the blade I have two forrest blade one the 40 tooth and the 60 tooth, the 60 tooth hit the trunion (almost ruined my blade) It literally almost cannot be lowered below the table. The dado insert Will not allow over 3/4" and it's close, I filed it to give it more clearence. As I raise and lower the blade the blade alignment changes, I had to compensate for this.
Of these problems the blade clearence problem was the most upsetting, I'm lucky I notice it before I hit the power. I drop the blade all the way down before the blade stops most of the time.
john
Wait a minute there John; you're comparing apples to oranges. This discussion is about the PM66 which is a cabinet saw and so is every other saw mentioned in this thread.
Now you introduce the "evidence" of your experience with a General contractor's saw. Different species my friend, and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. (Something like my dad refusing to buy a Chevy because his 1928 coupe was a piece of junk. Uh, what do a '28 Chevy and a 2003 Impala have in common other than 4 wheels and a nameplate???)
I too looked at PM & General - would gladly have either one of them but they're both a bit too rich for my blood. Then I compared Jet and Unisaw, and I bought the Jet. Heavier machine, better fit and finish, excellent record of reliability, outstanding customer service, more saw for less money.
BTW, is your saw a General, or a General International?
Jeff
Hi
Uh, Don't really Understandthe reason for you email. It's tells me you don't know much about tools or some thing.
To answer you question with a question about my general contracter saws origin?
(Q) How many powermatic 64's are made in america. (A) 0. General don't make a canadian contracter saw!!?!! delta might?
Secondly, you need to go back to my Email so you'll find I started by talking about the "350" general cabinet saw, Left tilt ( left tilt's are apperently called 650's now?), also I said jets a good saw. So, I'm not sure, whats your point.
I just had a saw thats a general and had a consumer opinion.
john
John,
I'm guessing what it was about is General does not make a contractors saw. It's that simple, and apparantly from what some have written, it's not unuasal or unexpected to tune a new saw. If you are having the problems you wrote about, tune the saw.
If you don't see the difference between Jet and General, it's been a long strange trip. Que Sera.
Don
Edited 3/12/2003 8:56:11 AM ET by Don C.
John,
I'm not sure we're on the same page here. You wrote:
"I have a general (sic.) contracter (sic.) saw because it was cheaper than the powermatic (sic.)... I planned on getting." (sic.)
To this, I responded:
"Wait a minute there John; you're comparing apples to oranges. This discussion is about the PM66 which is a cabinet saw and so is every other saw mentioned in this thread."
I'm not sure what you fail to understand, but let me put it this way:
1. This discussion is about the Powermatic 66, which is a cabinet saw.
2. Although contractor's saws and cabinet saws are similar, they are not the same kinds of machinery.
3. General does not manufacture contractor's saws.
4. General does sell two contractor's saws under the nameplate General International. These two machines, models 50-175 and 50-185, are manufactured in Taiwan.
5. General and General International are not the same brands of machinery.
6. Your saw is not a General, it is a General International.
Different kinds of machines and different brands as well. No comparison. Not germane to the discussion.
Finally, you wrote:
"It's (sic.) tells me you don't know much about tools or some thing." (sic.)
The purpose of this forum is communicate ideas and experiences, not to sling insults. Should you prefer, however, to engage in vitriolic exchanges, at least try to use something resembling standard English grammar and spelling.
Jeff
Jeff,
These characters all became members at the same time which should clue you in. The rest is pretty easy to figure out with a little review.
Don
I just took delivery on a PM66. It is massive . The fit and finish are unbelievable. Th e trunnions are massive. I truely believe its the BEST SAW.
I bet you even got more then one!
Yawn
you know don c, you could just STFU and move on from this thread. YOu said you dont like any saw but your own. Thats nice. Someone asked for opinions on cabinet saw, you gave yours, great. Someone else gave theirs, great. Now all your posts do is make me really doubt your opinion even more.
Since youre yawning so much, consider resting more or devorint more time to a good nights sleep. Quit worrying if others like other saws better
Bill,
You could do the same. Probably been over if you had STFU. I didn't start the nastiness, and why you fail to see that is a bit telling. What I did was report what I've seen of the negatives and some didn't like it. Que Sera. Do a little research here Bill. I'm guessing someone is succeeding in doing what they started out to do. Geesh Bill, you're brighter then this.
Don
Hi Jeff K
Your a funny guy
I think most of the info in your previos post is common sence to most people (ie powermatic imports it's contracter saw too?!? what a coincedense.
You completely avoided the fact that I began by talking about the General CABINET saw. And your telling me that there are differences between the contracter saws and cabinet saw, Wow ...Really. I'm Aware of this fact.
Also, ADJUST MY SAW!!!! JEE YA THINK. Ofcourse I adjusted my saw, over and over and over..... I could not stop It from burning wood, SO I MADE A JIG (see picture) to align my saw, AND THATS WHEN I and I'm REPEATING FROM MY LAST POST I ASSUME YOU READ, the alignment changes when the blade is raised and lowered. UNfortunatly the rear of the blade moves toward the fence when the blade is lowered ( jeff k. did you know most people usually raise there blade to do an alignment). After making the jig I compensated for problem. Oh, and ofcourse I thighten the rear trunion bolts after I aligned the saw, Everytime too. I wasn't easy finding out what was wrong until I made the gauge.
Anyway I've adjusted the saw so when the blade is lowered to cut 4/4 wood it does it without burning wood. I've not real trouble cutting thicker woods yet. I just CAN'T align the blade to the miter grooves WHEN THE BLADE IS RAISED MOST OF THE WAY.
LASTLY the guy at general had the same atitude you do. He sent me a rear trunion that fixed nothing, Then I got the "you must be doing something wrong". It can't be doing that dispite the fact I told him the gauge showed me what was happening.
hope this clears a few things up, "like I did think of adjusting my saw".
john
Edited 3/17/2003 1:33:59 PM ET by john
Edited 3/17/2003 1:47:45 PM ET by john
Edited 3/17/2003 7:09:43 PM ET by john
John,
Could you post a picture with you gauge and the entire saw?
Don
Hi
I don't have a picture of both right now but heres my saw.
john
John,
I'm not sure what saw you are showing, but it is not a General 350 or 650. With the tilt adjustment on the right, it is not a 350. The 650 is left tilt, but the motor cover that is on a 650 is not there. Is this is a General International Contractors saw.
Don
Edited 3/17/2003 8:18:19 PM ET by Don C.
don c
please look at post 50 of 62
john
John,
I reread your post and I still have to say, you do not have a General. You have a General International. Different companies, different saws. Much like Jet and PM. Does sound like you've had some problems, and that's too bad. Lemons do get out from everyone. I've spoken to technical support at General International a number of times due to a bad circuit board I had in my drum sander. Never received anything but timely and curteous responses. They have also sent me the parts to fix the sander no questions asked. Had to fax them my address, that's it. I'm curious why you just didn't return the saw?
As for your comments on the 350, obviously I disagree, but that's unimportant. There are not nearly as many Generals around in the States as they have in Canada. General shapers, jointers and the old Yates mortising machine are another thing. Quite a few around.
Best of luck with the saw and resolving the difficulties.
Don
Hi
YES I KNOW I HAVE A INTERNATIONAL, LIKE I SAID THE 64A IS A IMPORT.
I've said over and overand over and over and over. WHO sells gerneral International????????????????? GENERAL!!!!!!!!!!!
WHats funny is powermatic makes a domestic cabinet saw, and a import contracter saw, THEY call it a powermatic because they sell it.
they don't play this game.
Do you guys sell generals or what.
john
Edited 3/18/2003 4:05:36 AM ET by john
Edited 3/18/2003 4:34:45 AM ET by john
Rocky, Check out the way the blades tilt. Powermatics tilt left, Deltas tilt right. I generaly like to run a workpiece over a blade, instead of under it, because my stock feeder grabs it better. I have used many saws over the years, and I like the Powermatic 66 best. Don't worry about the loose adjustments, those fill up with sawdust if you do much woodworking. Jack
You can get a left tilt Unisaw, and I'm sure you can get a right tilt PM66. IMO tilt comes down to comfort
Rocky,
Here's another opinion to be taken for what it's worth. I had the same decision as you last October. I was back and forth between the Unisaw and the 66. I looked at the Jet briefly but the real comparison for me was between the other two. I wanted left tilt, 3 HP, a Bies fence or comparable, excellent customer support, and a machine that would surpass my lifetime. I tried both. I talked with users of both. I'm not sure you can go wrong either way. There are a handful of duds from both manufacturers that come off the line. These owners will make it known that their machine is junk. After much thought, I went with the Unisaw packaged with the right table, mobile base, etc. Right out of the box, this machine was dead on. Blade stopped accurately at 90 and 45. No slop. The table was perfectly aligned with the blade. The belts were properly tensioned. I never had the "thump" that so many others complain about with the Unisaw.
Today, I gave the machine a complete cleaning and tune-up. Checked all settings carefully. Still rock solid and dead on after 5 months of moderate-to-heavy usage.
Once again. I don't think you can go wrong. Many will say you get what you pay for and the extra money for the 66 may be worth it. I didn't think so and I have never once regretted my decision. I know that if I ever need parts, they will be readily available. Good luck with your final decision.
Todd
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