I have been reading, with growing consternation, the posts related to the switch from mZinga to Drupal based forums. They have ranged from grudging acceptance to mild mourning to xenophobic howls of rage. I am used to this. My career started in moderating message boards and chats at AOL’s Digital City more than 13 years ago. I remember the switch from AOL-style message boards to HTML, so I knew there would be pain in any change. Many complaints, however, have been couched in language so hurtful to the people who build Taunton’s popular and award-winning sites that I feel I need to address the issues.
- The original forum was better; this new site looks like it was made by one-handed monkeys using COBOL; bring back my frames: We understand that changing a system you are used to using every day for a number of years can and will be upsetting. It’s akin to someone rearranging your furniture and painting your walls at home while you’re out at work. That said, the long-process the small group of talented people at Taunton Interactive (tech and editorial) went through to launch the new forums with as many features as we could preserve and all of the years worth of your posting data intact, without more than a day’s worth of downtime, was monumental. Is the new forum everything you hoped and dreamed for? No, and us neither. Drupal is, however, an easily updated framework that can be changed directly by the online producers (want comments in reverse chronological order? Change length before pagination? We can do that.) on a regular basis to make it a more perfect experience for everyone involved. We will also be making changes so that you can set your own themes and preferences to view the forums. It is, in my opinion, much better than what we had, and with years of minor and major improvements to come.
- You are greedy, it’s all about the money OR you’re killing a goldmine: Yes, it is (in part) about money. It was costing us tens of thousands of dollars to host the free mZinga forums. They were run at an almost complete loss. They were invisible to Google and the rest of our sites and had few ads. So, in a time of drastic financial upset in the publishing world we had three choices: make a cut (person or project), remove the forums, or find a way to keep the forums while drastically lowering costs. We think the forums represent a vibrant community feature and went with #3.
- You didn’t listen enough/much/at all to our suggestions or complaints: We went through a very deliberate process with a Forums Task Force made up of web producers (Matt, Gina, Robyn, Kate & Vicky) who solicited feedback before we launched into the process. Some things could be done at launch, some afterward, and some could not/would not be done at all. We did read all of the feedback, assigned priorities to changes and will be listening for constructive criticism to improve the forums on a regular basis.
- Taunton hates us; we hate Taunton; let’s take our ball and go home: What can I say to this? Taunton is a very ethical company with decades of producing the highest-quality content and communities for enthusiasts. We take our role in each community, and the members of those communities, very seriously. No decision is made lightly and never for venial reasons. If any of you feel so strongly that Taunton no longer represents the best way to interact with others about building, gardening, woodworking, sewing and cooking and want to form your own groups or forums on other sites, we wish you well. For those who would like to change what’s here for the better, we are always open to constructive criticism and offers of help. Personal and off-topic attacks, however, will be removed.
Thank you for your time and patience. Remember, there are real people (with real names) working long hours behind all of our content you see online. The person you talk to from Taunton in a discussion about formatting your post may have just finished a video shoot from a job site or may be working on a how-to article on planting shrubs. We are a small, but dedicated crew who will strive to give you our best and use the latest in technology to do so. We look forward to growing with you as Taunton Interactive continues to expand online and beyond. Jason Revzon VP, Taunton Interactive
Replies
I don't understand the
I don't understand the histrionics either; the Prospero/Mzinga layout wasn't all that wonderful. Some good things about this new layout are not having to log in to read messages, no read/unread notice on the posts, and the disappearance of that huge banner that took up the top half of the screen. I would appreciate, though, being able to block signatures.
This is not a reply to whoever it says it is to, I really can't tell who it is supposed to go to, but I intend it to be to the original topic posting. I am totally astounded that this enterprise would ditch an okay system to something that looks like it should be run on Windows 3.1! Archaic would be polite. You've got to be kidding! If I had a day or two to figure out this mess... I still wouldn't. This is laughable but pathetic. I hope taunton got this for free. And hey, I have gone through many transitions on many sites, but this one is mind-boggling in the way that it goes backwards. Unbelievable.
I think it would be interesting to know what percentage of "Knotters" are really complaining. I believe most of your users appreciate your work and will continue to subscribe. Personally, I haven't posted in any of the (many) negative threads as I see it about the same as arguing about religion or politics. It just isn't worth it.
This might make a good topic for an online poll.
Pete Mohr
Charlotte, NC
Jason, your first sentence is exactly what's wrong with Taunton through its forums - you argue with your own customers, experience consternation when they tell you their honest opinions, and generally walk about with what appears to be thinly veiled contempt.
Before a post the other day by Gina , I don't think anybody here had ever heard of you. And the first post you make in the form used the word 'consternation' in the first sentence.
If you guys just needed to save money, just say so. Leave the consternation and contempt out of it.
Charles,
The first time I knew anything about Mr. Revzon was Gina's mention that a letter would follow. Didn't see that letter until today, after the change but what I did see after one brief stop at Breaktime Classic (I prefer this one and noticed how few had actually jumped ship) at
LINK DELETED
was this link and with out further comment other than you always have to watch out for the man behind the curtain:)
Hi Boilerbay: I've edited your post to remove links to Web sites with offensive comments on them. Certain individuals have turned "forum feedback" into a personal attack against an individual. Sorry to be the censor here, but our forum change is a company action, not an action by one person.
If people are mad, it's okay to criticize the company, but please don't make it a personal attack. And to be clear, Boiler, this is nothing against you, I'm just getting rid of those links and am explaining my actions. -Gina, FineWoodworking.com
I'd love for Jason to
I'd love for Jason to reconcile the 130% increase in traffic, per the article in your link, to the whole money losing thingy.
In the South we say "sump'n don't gee-haw."
Signed: A Xenophobe
Xenophobe,
Just speculation and I'm just an ole woodchipper an Iz don't know notin bout birthin babys, Miss Scarlet, but 130% increase isn't that hard to do, once you pay Google it's top ad rate for 1st position, right hand slot. It does tend to put you in first fall on a search. All you have to do is convince your employers to spend the money. Now 300%, that's dirt showing real color, not pyrite. Wondering about parachute colors and wondering when ads are going to fill the right hand column of this forum. Thank goodness for Adblock but so far so -seems good and maybe lookin to git past beta to betta.
Wow. Now that's some smooth
Wow. Now that's some smooth customer relations in a difficult time. Kudos.
Let me get this straight though. You understood that the change was very likely to be upsetting to many of your customers, but apparently you weren't really all that understanding, as you are are quite dismayed that customers actually became upset and said so. Got it.
I'm hard pressed to imagine the accounting that has these forums running at a "complete loss." Do you think that you have sold no online subscriptions, magazine subscriptions, books, or DVDs as a direct result of the forums attracting people to the Taunton site or the forum participants informing people directly about the usefulness and quality of the online membership and publications? I can imagine that this would be difficult to quantify, but to assume that that orders and subscriptions are a given, and that the forum plays no role as far as brand awareness, customer identity with the brand, not to mention direct referral sales, seems a stretch. In simple terms, you want people coming to your site as often as possible and nothing brings them in as frequently as a forum with a good community and content.
I realy hope you do create something good here. But I have to agree with Marsupial that you have struck a very poor tone in this note. You seem to think of the forum only as some sort of "gift" to the customers of your other products. I think you ought to think a little more about how the forum content (answering questions, showing projects, etc.) is a gift from your customers back to you, in that it attracts more customers. As such, you ought to facilitate the ability of customers to easily and enjoyably share that content with each other. Bon chance!
I agree with Samson. The arguments posed by Jason seem disingenuous and tardy. There is also a sense of "your presence here is a given" with which I disagree. I don't blame Taunton for trying to monetize its operations- every publisher needs to. But it's pretty clear that Taunton has run into heavy criticism for its revision of other fora, and appears to be indifferent to it, even when it is constructive.
Moreover, some of those objecting are among the most reasonable and valuable contributors to Knots. The fallacy of this IT position is that making it more difficult to participate erodes the monetary value of the forum to the publisher. For me, it's not that change itself is bad- it's the loss of functionality. It is harder and slower to surf through threads, the search function is a joke and the interface is balky. Taunton seems to be saying "we will make this better for us at your expense, because we know that you will show up anyway". My response is, I'll show up, but much less frequently: you may be more visible to Google, but there will be less of you to see. I will drop my premium membership- not out of spite, but because it is less valuable to me now. Like others, I will look into other alternatives to Knots. To me it seems that Taunton has handed its competitors a real opportunity, mostly out of willful blindness.
I'm not sure that previous experience with AOL is a qualification- although it explains a lot about the decisions made here- but it would seem to me that following AOL's bloody minded pursuit of oblivion might not be to Taunton's advantage. BTW, COBOL is pretty elegant and functional by comparison, even 50 years on. Odd that Google and Amazon have manged to grow and thrive for over a decade without altering the UI much, and then by making it fairly seamless to the end user. I'm thinking that their model is a bit more durable than AOL's.
I just visited Sawmill Creek and here are the current statistics of some of their forums as of this moment:
General Woodworking: 234 viewing;
Turning: 72 viewing;
Neanderthal Forum: 56 viewing;
Engravers Forum: 45 viewing;
Workshop Forum: 26 viewing;
Off Topic: 36 viewing;
Not half bad. I think if you have a question you can get it answered or if you have something to offer there are people who will appreciate it.
Just noticed a post there by Ron Hock about A2 steel for you metal junkies.
Heading over there....
What name should I look for? ;-)
By the way, did you notice that we are referred to as "users?" We are not "contributors," "members," "participants," "valued customers," "community," or even "posters." We are "users." Just a little thing that kind of sums up the attititude.
I'll never
I'll never tell......
Actually, you can't use nicknames like "HotRod" and stuff like that.
User and Abuser....
SMC Statistics:
Threads: 113,996, Posts: 1,241,011, Members: 50,566, Active Members: 11,490
Highest visitors ever at that site (SMC) occurred on 12/14/09 - 1,643 people.
Bingo! Lots of good info at SMC and less off topic departures as a rule. Its worth taking a look.
Thanks Jason.
The forum
Thanks Jason.
The forum moderators should not hesitate in removing anything that is not appropriate.
There is a place for suggestions.
There is no place for the continued attacks on the ethics of your company, the intent or reputation of any of your staff.
It is your site that is provided for a certain purpose. You are right to keep that intent in the forefront and the standard of conduct high.
ADDED> Why not start with this topic now that you have stirred the pot?
Don
Jason, while I am not an IT pro I have been involved in IT for many years. Consequently I appreciate your difficulties and your reasons for change. I have posted in discussions about the change and essentially taken a "wait and see" attitude. (If you want to hear screaming, observe a transition from MS Office to OpenOffice in a company :-) It makes the furore here seem positively genteel and muted)
Knots has been the best WW forum I have found and was a major factor in my subscribing to online FWW. Yes I know I didn't need to but it did boost the attractiveness of the main site.
Note that I have not said or implied that any changes here will cause me to terminate my subscription. That is not the point at issue.
However I do not appreciate the way the change was implemented. What would have worked better would have been an up-front statement: "We're going to do it, it won't start out good but it will get better." Your message here is about a month too late.
Frankly I do not like the new interface. You've gone from excellent to run-of-the-mill. I know you can change it and I sincerely hope that you will. I am already seeing improvements (Hopefully I'm not imagining them).
I think that, for me, the most valuable feature you have lost is the navigation bar down the LH column. I shall call down blessings on you team if they reinstate it.
I look forward to the improvements and wish you luck with your efforts. However in the meantime don't hold it against me if I spend less time here - it can get tiring.
Dave
"However I do not appreciate the way the change was implemented. What would have worked better would have been an up-front statement: "We're going to do it, it won't start out good but it will get better." Your message here is about a month too late."
Unfortunately there was so much banter occurring on so many fronts but Matt Kenney made a statement of this very nature on Dec 08 in the "Why the change" topic.
Perhaps the statement should have been made in its own topic, but using the old software it should have been easy to see and read.
Be sure to post your comments about the navigation bar in the Upgrade Requests Topic so Gina can capture it.
Regards,
Don
Jason,
Always a mistake to adopt the agenda of the blowhards and back-of-the-class yahoos. It's what they love, attention and pain. Let them go to see Matron for a purge.
But here they are moaning like auld fishwives as usual.
Hopefully you will be doing some fiddlin' to adopt and implement some of the suggestions for improvement already made. Meanwhile I believe that poster above was right to suggest that arguing with the yahoos is pointless. They have a weird religion called "Chronic Dissatisfaction"; you could post them all a pot of gold and get no thanks but rather a complaint about the pot-shape.
Lataxe
This whole situation reminds me of a sign I saw in a construction job shack years ago.
"Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling in the mud with a pig. Sooner or later you realize that the pig is enjoying it"
Merry Christmas everyone!
Regards,
Mack
My dear Lataxe:
David, I don't think you can lump everybody into the same bucket and dismiss them as whiners. Several of the posts reflect considerable thought, constructive observations and nary any histionics. I agree with the thoughts expressed by Samson and Glaucon above, as well as several others.
JMHO, YMMV, etc, Patrick
Patrick,
I suppose I did toss the squids, salmon and old boots all in the same salty bucket. However, I believe Sean is just having his jollies nitpicking and puffing a bit as usual in such matters. He says he agrees with Charlie, whose only motive is to be a bad boy, not to offer sage advice to Jason, you, me or anyone else.
Glaucon is similarly inclined. Although he is most often righteous (like Sean) with his good advice and conversation he too slips into "self-righteous" from time to time.
I never do that myself. :->.
So, these lads like to have-at authority and relish the opportunity to do so. I can sympathise with that - but only when the authority is an overweaning and jumped up tinpot. This hardly seems the case with Taunton, despite all the sensitive souls thinking they have been shamefully treated etc, etc..
Mind, I did think Jason unwise to groan at the jibes and catcalls from the naughty boys and clivver-clogs. They do so like it when their victim rises to the bait.
But after all, this is a teacup and the storm is not a drowning matter. In fact, no one even got wet.
Lataxe, who is enjoying this new format, as well as the opportunity to poke back at the pompous fellahs. (Yes I know I am Mr Pompo personified at time). :-)
Lataxe,
Ha ha! "Back-of-the-class yahoos." Another classic.
--jonnieboy
Bravo. Keep this up and the teacher will let you take names when she has to visit the ladies' room.
Yobo,
Shush up now. Some of us goody two shoes are trying to talk about woodworking - not your main interest I know.
Still, if you stop yapping like a wee dawg you may learn something. (No, not likely I suppose).
Lataxe, a swot
To hell with woodworking, I'm
To hell with woodworking, I'm thinking there must be a decent living to be made thinking up names for forum software platforms.
mZinga, Drupal? Sheesh....
As is usually the case, the nay-sayers are the the most vocal. I've browsed the site and though it will take some getting used to, I'm sure the sun will still come up tomorrow.
Here's a thought: when posting your complaints, compose your message and then read it as if you were critiquing a fellow woodworkers project. If it's not the kind of language you'd use with fellow woodworkers, it's probably out of line. Everybody has feelings, and I'm sure the folks at Taunton are working to make this as good a site as possible given the monetary constraints most of us are feeling right about now.
Merry Christmas to all!
My first and last comment on all this switch-over. Wake me up when dinner is ready.. I like to eat but don't care for cooking so I leave it in more capable hands. ha.. ha...
Ya'll take care and Merry Xmas...
Geez Sarge, your'e out of
Geez Sarge, your'e out of uniform. I expected at least your shop set of BDU's and a sidearm in your picture.
Sarge! I've been wondering
Sarge! I've been wondering about you. Haven't seen your posts in a while.
Nice picture, by the way. I need to be getting on that. It's hard to take a picture of myself. It's hard to catch myself off guard and looking oh-so-casual.
I hope your holidays are going well.
--jonnieboy
Don't do fatiques anymore DG
Don't do fatiques anymore DG but.. I can assure you that with a concealed weapons permit there is a .45 Auto either on me or close by no matter where I am. :>)
I drop by once a day (usually in the mornings) jonnieboy here and at the Creek. The past several weeks here has been dominated by dissent over the switch-over so not much of interest to me. My philosophy on that is that I look and if I don't find anything appealing I just go look somewhere else as I really don't like wasting shop time since I retired.
I basically go to Woodworking Projects at the Creek as I post projects pretty often there and I comment on every one posted regardless of how good or poor. I try to find something good in all them and post encouragement to the WW to continue the slow process of stepping up the ladder toward the top.
So.. I've made a concious effort to spend my time in the shop "doing" in lieu of on forums talking about doing or just shooting the breeze. That has worked well for me in the last two years with 11 new carcass pieces for the "first lady" who does indeed appreciate my efforts it appears. The confirmation is she has not kicked me out the door and keeps the requisition basket full to the point of over-flow! ha.. ha...
Ya'll have a good day and see ya when I pass through!
Sarge , can you wake me when you get woken....
If you are used to it, why the consternation?
As for your scolding community members about language, it reveals your short tenure at Taunton and is an obvious disclosure that you have spent very little time in these forums. What makes them interesting is that the strongly held views are seldom restrained or obscured by quant language and proper sentence structure... this isn't a knitting forum or a book club. At any rate, scolding your constituents is hardly a winning strategy and I humbly suggest you rethink it.
What bothers so many people here, myself included, is that the Taunton websites generally represent a high watermark for online information design and delivery, yet the new CT, BT, and Knots forums contain so many basic design errors (e.g. color palette) that comparing them to something done by one handed monkeys using COBOL is quite frankly an insult to one handed monkeys using COBOL.
In rereading your note I can't help by feel like you are behaving as a petulant child who didn't get their dessert before having dinner. I commend you for standing up for your team in the face of some withering criticism but to dismiss that criticism as petty and unjust is an insult to people like me who have been forthright and quite detailed in our comments.
We all know this is about money and no serious person would criticize you or Taunton for that fact, in fact we all have a vested interest in seeing Taunton succeed and if it comes from the pockets of advertisers then that's even better by me. The forums you have converted have some serious issues and time will tell if the redesign is successful but it will be up to you and your team to be objective and honest about how successful your efforts have been, let the data speak for itself.
It's your forum so you can do with my comment as you see fit but I would suggest that this is an inflection moment for you as censuring forthright but critical content is a slippery slope that ultimately does little to advance the community that you state is strategic to your employer.
Jason, Gina, et al -
I spent many years developing and installing new business systems. The Stones were right: "You can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you get what you need."
Your business reality, and your approach to addressing it, appear to be on-target to me. I used to tell users "It's different. Different isn't right or wrong by defintion. It's different."
If the Knots formum had looked this way when I first signed up, then a switch to the previous format would have been confusing. People don't like change. Big deal. Get over it. IMO you and your group know what you are trying to do, and how to do it. You are in a business environment that resembles a train wreck, and you are thinking carefully how to move forward. You are listening. You are paying attention.
Damn the ankle-biters, and full steam ahead.
You said:
>>"I am used to this."<< I'm not surprised. And you also said: >>"My career started in moderating message boards and chats at AOL’s Digital City more than 13 years ago."
My career in Systems/IT management was almost that long. Mine inluced a number of years during which I managed the inventory control systems, shipping systems, and customer-EDI systems for a Fortune 50.
The systems that I managed handled $8 billion in annual shipments. With almost 100 separate manufacturing sites, and several thousand system users. Several of our databases had well over 20million entries at any given time, some twice that.
So please don't try to tell us lowly "users" how hard your job is.
By the way, I NEVER had a system roll out anywhere near as bad as this one. If I had, I would have lost my job.
And I would have lost it even faster if my response to the user community had been as late, as condescending, as confrontational, and as un-informed as yours has been.
.
.
"By the way, I NEVER had a system roll out anywhere near as bad as this one. If I had, I would have lost my job."
I was thinking the exact same thing. I worked in IT for close to 30 years and we created many systems I was proud to work on. My old boss used to say your job is to make it easy for the users not make it easy for yourself. Just before I retired we had a change in management and the new 'Leader' did not have a clue as to what he was doing. This filtered down to us and I think the worst part was that people using the new systems we were creating began to think we were incompetent.
I think about this when I get upset with the new FWW system. It's quite possible that many of the people working there have had this shoved down there throat and are doing their best to make it work. I would not personally fault anyone who has to work with something they were told to do. They know who signs their paycheck. If as I suspect at least some of them know what a turkey they are dealing with they have my sympathy.
The system created will speak for itself and it is true with any new system a period of adjustment will be necessary. I’ve been giving this some time but I don’t think it is going to work out for me. I have been here 6 years or so and it doesn’t look like I’ll see 7. The juice is no longer worth the squeeze although I’ll probably try to hang out a little longer and see if anything changes.
I doubt I'll follow this
I doubt I'll follow this forum much longer as well. This change over has been a great disappointment. I'll continue to purchase the magazine but my days here on the forum will be few and far between if at all.
Jason,
Well said! Frankly,
Jason,
Well said! Frankly, I'm not fond of the new layout, but I will get used to it as I have gotten used to many other changes that occur in life. Don't let the whiners get you down, the vast majority of us will still be here learning and helping others as best we can while we work through this.
PB
Well, Jason, thank you for finally deigning to communicate with the masses.
"Xenophobic howls of rage", indeed. Fancy words, too bad you don't seem to know the meaning of xenophobic. I don't recall people blaming Chinese, Indians, Arabs, Europeans, Africans or even Canadians for the shortcomings of the new format.
Have you considered that the hurtful comments may have come forth from the masses precisely because neither you nor anyone else bothered to inform the "users" in advance about what was coming, why you were doing it or how you were going to proceed?
When it came time to change over did you try to inform the users about the so-called benefits of the new format (other than an alleged better search function that I think Gina or Matt may have mentioned)?
Did you post a trial version in the sandbox to identify the faults (like CT's hideous and un-readable orange fonts) before launching the new formats?
Did you post a users guide to make the transition easier?
Did your staff respond to users' questions about how to use the new format?
The answers to those questions are no, no, no and mostly no.
So now, a month later you communicate with us for the first time, not to apologize for a bungled launch of the new formats but to chide us for not thinking they are wonderful?
Perhaps, while you are looking up the meaning of xenophobic, you should look up arrogance as well.
Jason,
It's business, not
Jason,
It's business, not personal.
We can all appreciate how hard you and your staff work, how good your intentions are and we can accept what the driving business forces are. But that doesn't mean that the hard work done and the actions taken are above criticism. A lot of customers simply don't like what you're doing.
It's not about you. It's not about your staff. It's about the people who subscribe to your magazine and your website. It's about the people who are buying your books and DVDs. It's about the people who are clicking your advertisers' ads and buying their products. It's about the collective readership you get to "sell."
Those people are unhappy and it sounds like you're saying "hey, what's wrong with them? Don't they know how hard we are working and what the financial situation is? Why can't they see it our way?"
It's too bad that a couple of upset customers became verbally abusive. But don't use them to represent the broader community of customers. Many are respectfully critical of the actions and attitude being portrayed. I suspect far more, in the silent majority, are just reducing their time here, exploring, and spending more of their online time elsewhere.
Keep your customers happy, Jason. Listen to them. The attitude that is coming across these days isn't real customer friendly.
Here's an example. A little while back, Associate Editor Matthew Kenney wrote a blog piece about dovetails being overrated. I get that he was trying to create controversy to generate clicks, but he wrote the following:
"Just because some crusty woodworkers on internet forums look down their crusty noses at drawers made with joints other than the dovetail doesn't mean they're right."
Now I didn't take that personal - I'm crustless. It is, however pretty revealing about the attidude FWW is taking toward its customers.
I'm neither happy nor unhappy about the changes. I'm ready to give it a shot. I've been a subscriber for over 20 years. This is my first post on the new site.
I just went to preview and clicked the link "more information about formating options" to see if ther was a spell-checking option. I lost everything I typed! "Page expired."
Deep breath... positive attitude.
Respectfully,
Frank
Frank,
I'd like to respond to
Frank,
I'd like to respond to the part of your post in which you discuss my recent blog about dovetails. First, although I knew that my belief would be somewhat controversial, I truly do believe that dovetails are overrated as a drawer joint. I see no reason why I should not write what I truly believe. Second, I take it that you believe my statement about crusty woodworkers on internet forums is indicative of not only my general attitude toward FWW's readers, but also of the entire staff's attitude toward them. You couldn't be further from the truth on both counts. I said nothing of FWW readers. I said something about a particular subset of internet forum users. And I believe what I said. However, what I said cannot be construed in any reasonable way to apply to our readers as a whole. The only thing it reveals is that I think some (which is not all) woodworkers on internet forums (and there woodworking forums other than Knots) are too bound by tradition and, so, are crusty.
I'm sorry if what I wrote somehow mislead you to think that either I or the entire staff has a low opinion of our readers. We absolutely do not. We have great readers and our goal is, as always, to serve them as best we can.
Your dovetail post is to a serious woodworking article, as a sports page hyperbolic columnist's piece is to a front page news story. No one should have taken you seriously.
Not to mention, you made up unspecified strawmen who apparetnly don't allow that any joint may ever be used in a drawer besides dovetails. Perhaps you know such unreasonable woodworkers, but I've not met any.
All that said, dovetails are hard to beat for strength and beauty. They also aren't very difficult to make, as compared to many other joints. Indeed, your employer even incorporates them into its logo.
Merry Christmas!
Matt,
Your decision to reveal your controversial belief about overrated dovetails happened to arrive at the same time as a cover story in the magazine, "Fine Drawers without Dovetails."
You were either creating online content to support the magazine or we witnessed a miraculous coincidence. So let's go with the idea that the blog topic was purposeful. Since you knew your position would be controversial (you said that,) you were purposefully creating controversy to publicize your product. Newsletters show up in readers'/ subscribers' inboxes directing more attention to the controversy, There's an ad there, too, on drawer making. I guess that's how media works. It's a little manipulative, but that's the business, so let's call it fair play.
I think you went over the line when you fabricated the controversy. You characterized the more traditional, more advanced of the woodworking community as some sort of elitist snob who looks down his or her nose at anything other than a dovetail. You characterize the hobbyist as sycophants, idolizing the coveted dovetail and following like brainwashed cult members.
You then went with the "crusty woodworkers on internet forums look down their crusty noses at drawers made with joints other than the dovetail crusty" comment.
That's great stuff to fuel the fires of controversy, but it's manipulative and an unfair representation of the woodworking community - and that's who your customers and prospective customers are.
You can tell me that your comments "cannot be construed in any reasonable way to apply to our readers as a whole." I ask, what percentage of your readers did you intend to insult to fuel your manufactured controversy? If not the whole, was it half? A quarter? A third?
Are you implying that your "crusty" comments were only intended for woodworkers on internet forums other than Knots who are also not subscribers to FWW, so are subject to cheap shots?
You can't say in one breath that you have the greatest readers; that you hold a high opinion of them and want to serve them properly, then, in the next breath manipulate and insult them like you did.
To the point that I commented on your Blog in this thread. I used it as an example. There is a lot of talk these days that FWW is losing touch with it's readers - that they are not listening to the customer. There seems to be a lot of manipulating customers and a lot of explaining away the customers' reasons for discontent.
Maybe FWW leadership can revisit their core values, keep the customer first as they figure out how to spread their wings in the new media,and regain the position where they are, once again, the publication most in touch with the woodworking community.
Frank
I like the gist of what Frank has said, and recommended. If Taunton needed to switch the type of software/programming it was using for updating and financial reasons -- so be it. I have made only one comment, in the old format, about the change. I do not like the looks of this new format. I like the looks/appearance/layout, whatever you want to call it, of the previous format. Easiest forum to navigate I have participated in.
Changing the power behind it should not have had to necessarily mean to change what the participant sees. It comes across as "we need to change the appearance or our customer won't think we are keeping up." Wood really hasn't changed in centuries. What we do with it has -- to some degree. And we still like wood.
I don't know that I'll run away from Knots, but now it looks like sawmill creek. The appeal of sawmill creek is not what the forum looks like nor how it operates. Knots had the lead in that regard. But, I don't think it does now. So, I might as well spend more time over there.
I would love for this New Coke to go away and Coke Classic make a come back. Keep your new software, but give me the taste and feel of the previous forum format.
Alan - planesaw
Mr. Revzon:
First, thank you for posting this, it is good to see that someone from the upper echelons of Taunton is looking in.
As to changes, if you can find it (and I'm not being snide, I can't find it) I recommend looking in at the thread following Gina's "Welcome to the Beta Knots" (or similar wording, I'm sure she can tell you specifically) posting.
There are quite a few valid suggestions and complaints there.
I realize you are working within budget constraints, but make the following points:
1) You (that's "you at Taunton" not necessarily "you personally) introduced a new format which had, to be blunt, none of the functionality of the older format. It's navigation is a total mystery to most, if not all, of us.
2) You went from a familiar look to one that is totally different. Whilst I'm not a geek, I am aware that one can format in such a way as to present a similar style. This wasn't done. While you may do so in the future, you irritated quite a few people by not going live with a similar format to what people had been using.
3) Your code people on this project (I don't know what term you use for them, but the people that set it up) did not bother to check to see if what they'd written opened properly in anything other than Internet Explorer. Many of us here use Firefox, some use Opera, some others use Macs. Again, I'm not a geek, but I can sit down with an HTML book and write it well enough that what I do opens in everything. If I can do it, then your people can.
So, Mr. Revzon, while I understand Taunton's need to reduce costs, find a searchable source and increase revenue by ads, you -- whoever the person in charge of this is -- blew it big time by not attempting to duplicate the look and functionality of what you had from MZinga/Prospero.
In case you can't locate my reply to Gina, I'll sum it up here:
A) Use a larger font. Many of your readers/users have aging eyes.
B) Bring back the boxes around individual posts. If you can't do so, use 10 - 15% black instead of the yellowish tint.
C) Use percentage widths rather than fixed widths so the page displays with the same proportions regardless of monitor settings.
D) Fix your code so it opens properly in all browsers.
E) Have your code people actually LOOK at how what they've written displays in all browsers, not just Internet Explorer.
Best of luck,
Leon Jester
Roanoke, VA
Predictions of world collapse aside, I see nothing in the new forum function that is an improvement. I use a lot of different forums and the old format was the easiest to navigate by far. The left-side column is something Drupal should add post-haste.
Your letter does not explain why you changed. Better tech support, admin tools, reliability, and lower cost are valid motivations - but sharing the reason would improve the reaction. All your message does is support the notion that you are not listening.
You might find some insight by doing a Google search using the author's name.
"VITAL STATS
Since Jason Revzon joined Taunton Interactive last year, it has grown its traffic 130 percent year-over-year, with 1.8 million unique visitors in January to its various Web sites, including FineCooking.com, CraftStylish.com and FineWoodworking.com."
Somebody still needs to explain the need for change to software less functional 'out of the box' assuming the above is true.
Marsupial,
Excellent point. If Mr. Revzon has grown web-traffic to those sites that much -- why change? Stay with what is working. I actually know the answer to that question, but I don't think we are hearing it. Therefore, I am not sure the change has been based on something solid.
I could argue (in the debate sense) both sides of this coin, but the theme I am seeing (and believe myself) is that changing the power/software/programming behind Knots is fine. But, that alone should not dictate what we the "users" see or navigate. Knots was one of the best forums in its ease of use. Now, it appears, to me anyway, to have gone backwards.
As I said before, I may not run from Knots, but I am not seeing a reason to stay predominantly here anymore. I am very aware of getting used to change. But, as a consumer of Popular Woodworking, Woodworking Magazine, Sawmill Creek, and Fine Woodworking, I will be going to where I get answers to my questions. The user interaces are now all about the same. They are "decorated" differently, but much the same. FWW used to have the edge, in my opinion, but not now.
Alan - planesaw
Jason:
Thank you for your explanation and comments about the change in this section of your site. I too read all the griping and actually after spending a few minutes looking around tonight can say that all the complainers need to find something else to do! Sure it is a little different looking and jeez you might have to actually think as you cruise around but in my humble female opinion I think it's nicer now! Ok, now I went and said it, I think its nicer.
Thank you for finding a workable solution to allow the continuation of the Knots system and all the terrific knowledge that is here.
Madison
Maddy,
You are forgetting that the opinions of us males, no matter how pompous, self-regarding and filled with preen, are Very Important. Surely you are not suggesting that we give up standing on soapboxes and holding forth in a reedy and pedantic tone concerning the inadequacy of all other people, even other men!?
Yes, I know that would be the best thing for us and most definitely a sensible thing to do; but think of all the flabbered egos that would result, all wrinkly and deflated, littering the place up and exuding last-gasps of fetid opinion-gas!
****
But I must cease this moaner-poking and get back the the shed, as that sensible fellow Sarge gently reminds us would be a more productive use of our drives and energies. What I really want to know is, when will the Highly Dissatisfied and Utterly Disaffected moaners and nitpickers wander of elsewhere, as they keep promising to do?
Lataxe, glad to see that there are still some folk left here with a sense of proportion and adventure.
PS How goes your own adventuring? I assume you are still dominating the local time trials and burning sprogs off your back wheel? :-)
Why, or why, did you not just get rid of the oversized banner at the top of the 'old' Forum format? This new format is for the birds - no, wait! that is them flying to some other forum.
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