I just checked out ebay for the first time in quite a while. I was shocked at the drop in selling prices of Bedrock planes since, say, 2 years ago. I remember 605 1/2’s and 604 1/2’s selling between $200 to $300 or more, depending on condition. Now, it’s $50 to $100 for every bedrock there.
Anybody have a viewpoint on what’s going on? Is it the wonderful economy, or did a couple aircraft carriers wash up on shore somewhere filled with Bedrocks from 100 years ago.
I’d like to hear what you gals and guys think.
Jeff
Replies
Lie-Nielsen would be my guess. If I was going to use a plane, as opposed to collect it, I'd put the money toward and LN rather than a bedrock that is not as nice (not ductile iron for example), needs a replacement blade, etc.
I've noticed it too, particularly about Bedrocks. So for a WAG I would say that handplanes are in some ways a commodity like any other and subject to the laws of supply and demand.
I think there has been steadily building interest in handtools, probably starting in the mid 1970's and continuing today. But certain kinds of tools become the darlings of the moment and later on fade. There's always some plane that's younger and prettier!
Back in the early 80's for instance, Primus and ECE planes were sold in every fine tool catalog, they were the ones everybody was clamoring for. Now they're not so popular (at least here in the US).
Back then you rarely ever heard of rehabbing, restoring or "fettling" old Stanleys.
Later when LN planes became prevalent, people went after them, despite the high pricetag. Since they were based on the Bedrocks, which you could ten years ago buy used for next to nothing, fettling those became all the rage, driving the price up.
Then came Ebay. People saw the prices that rusty old hulks were bringing in and started rummaging around in the basement for Dads old toolchest. I love some of the descriptions on Ebay for "rare" Stanley No. 5 "hand planers."
For most people who are into handtools and who are not collectors, a set of 4 or five planes is all they need and when they get them, they stop buying.
So, perhaps the market is maturing a bit...or has a new darling taken over? Enter handmade eye-candy, crow food, dovetailed infills! The Paris Hiltons of the plane word! Glitzy, fashionable and pretty, but are they good for anything? Who knows? We mortals couldn't afford them and who would run a Holtey on its side against a shooting board anyway?
For planes you might actually use, Norrises and Mathiesons seem to be center stage nowadays, these along with low angle, bevel up bench planes. These are the "must have" accoutrement for this season's fashionable neanderthal. So the Bedrocks go for less.
Whatever the cause, we certainly have lot's of choices at every quality level. So life is good!
My opinions only and full disclosure, I own one or more of every type of plane I mentioned. ('cepting the Holtey). I have way more planes than my high-maintenance wife has shoes!
David C.
David
You nailed it. I've bought ~9 Stanley planes on Ebay, the last 2 years ago was the best, a nice early #7 with a heavy casting and great tote and knob. I put a Hock blade on it and she sings. The two #4's, two #5's and a 3 all were purchased for around $25 average. I think that the market is shot, thanks to Ebay. I'd love to sell three of my planes, but I probably wouldn't get $30 for the three of them, even if they are "rare #5 planers!" Bedrocks will still bring a better price than a Bailey, but they have dropped so much, you don't see them much anymore. I waited too long to sell my Bailey's. Don't know if the market will come back to what it was four or five years ago, when a post WW II #5 in good shape would bring $45-55. Not even close now. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I'm sure it's just a cyclical thing, like almost any collectible. I haven't been watching them much lately but there aren't that many planes I would buy for investment purposes, anyway. I'm sure all of the positive things said here have caused some people to rethink buying old ones and go with L-N, etc, though.
FYI- there's a 604C at $137.50, a 6041/2 at $167.50 and a 608C at $112.50, all with more than 2 days left.
I shopped ebay for about a month. Bedrocks went for around $200. Baileys almost as much. This user can't compete with collectors, but maybe I quit shopping too soon.
Cadiddlehopper
Well Ah believe that the answer lies in comparisons and choices, y'all understand.
These days the parameters have been stretched wider than ever , to benefit the consumer ofcourse. To put it simply we have at the lower end those Stanley and Bedrock types (old ofcourse), in the middle we have those Veritas and LieNielsens and then at the upper end we find the odd Holtey and one or two other notable dovetailed steel and brass which look superb and work even better than they look. So who on earth wants to bother himself with a herd of rusty, bent chatterers that need first aid? The place is awash with them and folk are now resorting to flying them off on E bay.....
Now somebody mentioned that those planes with brass sides do not lend themselves to side use on shooting boards-this is not strictly true so I submit a couple of exceptions for general interest.
Beautiful work!
I have no doubt that these would work beautifully for shooting board use. But I couldn't bring myself to do it!
I'm not sure that I can believe that handmade dovetailed infills as art pieces have too much impact on the prices of the avarage rustbucket on Ebay. But I agree that there are lots of good choices these days for new planes that don't need much tuning to make sing.
And I promise I'll buy the first Marcou or Holtey I see on Ebay with a chipped tote, a 3/8-16 carriage head bolt rammed into the spot where the knob cracked off, covered with tool box dings and paint spatters from a lifetime of use/abuse...as long as I can afford it.
But all joking aside, your work is exceptional. Not just beautiful, they do look like you might really USE them. Of course afterward you could sit back, and run your fingers through the fluffy shavings, sip your 125-year-old cognac and light up your Cuban Cigar with a $100.00 bill and sigh...in total satisfaction.
David C.
¡Señor Philip!
<<Now somebody mentioned that those planes with brass sides do not lend themselves to side use on shooting boards-this is not strictly true so I submit a couple of exceptions for general interest.>>
Well.....I'd have ta say that them thar airn an brayuss mitre planes (note the use of proper Queen's English spelling here...) is jus' a biyut too purty fer usin in th' persoot a makin' wud shavin's if all-y'all (that's the plural of "y'all") knows whut I's talkin 'bout.....
On a more serious note: those are some truly nice planes you've created there. Once again, you've raised the bar. Talk about eye candy and glittering trinkets for us crows.......!!!!
Now if I can only figure out a way to come up with a couple of Quid so as to acquire one..... :-) (OK: NZ $$, but Quid sounds better.....)
Nice work!
<<So who on earth wants to bother himself with a herd of rusty, bent chatterers that need first aid? The place is awash with them....>>
Well... they do have a certain character and there is something to be said for auld stuff, you know.... And, it usually doesn't take that much work to restore them to proper working condition.....Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Mr Marcou,
Exceptional work! I have been wanting to ask this of you for quite some time since I have seen many of your posted photos of planes you have built. I am assuming you sell your planes, how can I find out more info on your planes, such as cost, construction options, etc.? And since you live in New Zealand, what is the cost of shipping a plane to the US?
Thanks in advance, and sorry to hijack the thread for my own personal use!
Lee
Philip has a website that I built.
The URL is http://www.MarcouPlanes.com.
Also you can see info about his planes on my site at http://www.wkFineTools.com
Regards,Wiktor
Wik,
Thanks so much! I enjoyed both of your websites immensely and have bookmarked them to go over when I have a little more time.
Lee
Wow, you make beautiful planes and I would love to have a couple for their beauty and mechanics. I have a question. I have a bunch of planes I have bought and collected, but seldom use a plane, and I make a lot of various styles of furniture. Why do you need a plane these days? I use them to take down a curve, or smooth uneven boards, or clean up some scrap on some lumber, but with all the various sandpapers and grinders available now, why plane off wood? And why pay more than a few dollars for a plane? Sort of like a ballpeen hammer, of which I have a several and don't use on a regular bases...same with hand saws. Am I missing something? I know I am bringing it on myself, but I feel I could actually survive without a plane.
I have a bunch of planes I have bought and collected, but seldom use a plane, and I make a lot of various styles of furniture. Why do you need a plane these days? I use them to take down a curve, or smooth uneven boards, or clean up some scrap on some lumber, but with all the various sandpapers and grinders available now, why plane off wood?
Oldtool
I have a bunch of sanders that I bought and are gathering dust in my cabinets. I seldom use sanders and I do make a lot of furniture. Why do you need to sand when it is such an unpleasant task - the dust, the noise of the sander, the noise of the dust collection, having to breath into a mask, the layers of dust over every thing in the shop. Did I mention the noise? With all the various planes, spokeshaves and chisels, why sand wood? Handtools can take down a curve or level uneven boards so much faster (and cleaner) than a sander. Handplanes also are capable of a much finer finish than sandpaper, not to mention that they can do more delicate work.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Point taken. I guess I just can't see spending over $18-20 on a plane, esp. those over $500-600.
Oldtool
I've got an old Stanley #5 that was the first plane I ever purchased (not including a few I inherited from my wife's father). I picked it up for $10.00, spent a couple hours tuning it, and it sings. It still has the flimsy iron that came with it, but it planes just great. You don't have to spend a mint to enjoy the wonderful sounds of shavings coming off of a board, not to mention what Derek already stated, NO DUST!
Jeff
Jeff I have noticed that tool prices go up in November and December.They seem to go down in the summer.
Ah. Perhaps as gifts, or just because it's woodworking season, with it being a little cold outside in most areas.
Jeff
Oldtool, Ouch! I must say I had to study your message to confirm that there were no signs of chain jerking....Anyway, thanks for the compliment.
I think Derek has put you in the picture, but I would like to add that surfaces finished with planes, scrapers and only the finest papers are superior to those sanded/ground into shape. Also, which is faster-to remove material by sanding or by cutting (be it hand or mechanised)? I think if you got into it you would find that the standard of your work improved, with little or no extra time-you might even save time.
Ballpein hammers- the 6 oz is my favourite- use for anything-no sharp claw or cumbersome cross-pein to ding things-couldn't make planes without it-what about those drawer stops where space to knock is limited...
Hand saws-still need them no matter how many machines. I use mine for half lap dovetails when I can't use my bandsaw, for example.
I think one just might barely survive without a handplane if one is an assembler of melamine kitchens- but I notice my friends doing that work do have a Stanley 91/2 blocky " quite useful , you know".Philip Marcou
Philip, I'm a retired engineer and love anything mechanical, especially your good looking planes. Maybe I got a little excited seeing your two planes and knowing I do not own one. I have 32 planes(counted last night). I do use planes, scapers, saws and the lot, just do not get carried away with anything. If it works I will use it. I go fast and make a couple items each week rangeing from secretaries, carved legged chairs to bird houses. I also collect all types of prmitive type tools to display on my walls. I have always looked for bargains, but You and some of the guys have convinced me maybe I should loosen up a bit and buy a better plane!
John
John, no need to go crazy with the fine furniture creation type plane(although I would die for a nice infill smoother)as a good quality low angle block plane will supprise the socks off of you. Even for the most mundane of tasks.
I have most of my tools in the new house/shop while I clean up this old one for sale. The job in hand is the rebuild and staining of the front fences on either side of the house. The replacement wood is 5/4x6 cedar, the original that I built 20 years ago was 1" thus the gate's 1st picket at the hinge will not pass the picket adjacent on the fixed section. No problem, just take a LV block and champher the front edge of the gate piece and the rear edge of the fixed picket to a fitted match. I went a step further and used a Miller's Falls (#140 type skew) block plane taking a wisp cut and rounded over the crisp edge on the gate to make it vanish after staining . Total time maybe 15+ min. No power cords, tools, bits, blades or measurements. If I had to walk home after an accident with my truck I would have my LV low angle and the skew in my pants pockets. Don't leave home with out them! All the best, Pat
You can say that again! LV low angle block never gets cold in my shop. As soon as I get some more bread I'll just get another LV beauty. I have Stanley smoother and jack (made in the UK, if that means anything) the smoother is equipped with a LV blade and a Hock chip breaker. They are OK, but the LV blockie is in another world. Hope you like Tenn. I am also an old fuddy-dud New York stater.
Quack,
I'm pretty impressed with the Clifton smooting plane that was left in my shop by a friend one day a few years ago and is still here. It was brand new when it arrived.
Nice weight, beautiful wood, great iron, nice workmanship, cuts perfectly.
Hal
Saw a Clifton smoother in a wooden boat shop in southern Maine a few years ago. Made a comment to the young fellow there something like; that is an excellent plane he had there. He said he didn't use it much now, then pointed to an electric Makita and said, as I remember," but that one makes it easy". No particular point to the story except, we were each given a set of eyes at birth, an each see things a little bit differently. I guess that is how it suppose to be.
John, with a herd that size you have more than me and therefore a culling is called for. I suggest you have an on-line auction to boost liquidity and bring in some new blood. Despite what Paddydahat says now is the time for spending money, it being near Christmas and all, so avoid the rush....(;)Philip Marcou
Philip, for shame, here I am trying to light his fire to use his hands and his collection of planes and your marketing . "A pox on both your houses" HA HA. All the best, Paddy
I can not even imagine what kind of furniture you can build without using hand planes. I have a shop full of power tools and every piece I build will have a plane used many, many times, how else can you fit a door or drawer? As to handsaws, how do you cut dovetails? Regarding the cost, it is like anything, the better to tool, the more it will cost. I have some well tuned <!----><!----><!---->Stanley<!----><!---->’s, but the L-N’s are still far better. Did you buy a top end table saw? Why? You can get a cheap tabletop import for under $250.00. Just my two cents worth.
what the hell, I'll jump in here too. Oldtool, I am, by any measure, a disciple of Thomas Edison. I like big cast iron machines running lots of horsepower.However, I don't believe there is a single piece of "fine" woodworking, be it furniture, cabinet or simple picture frame that doesn't get blessed by a handplane at some point of the process. In fact, the single most useful plane in my shop isn't for some reason considered to be a "special purpose" plane. It's a Lee Valley Veritas medium shoulder plane. I find new ways of utilizing this plane every project I make, I don't know how I ever managed to fit a joint before I received it from LOML as a birthday gift last year.Jim
"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
To all of you,
Yes, a hand plane does some wonderful things. But a really good one is just amazing.
If you have never used one, you don't know. It is like the difference between those portable job site table saws and a really good cabinet shop table saw. You just can't compare an old Stanley with a really well made, precision plane with a great blade honed perfectly.
(Good for you Philip, for remaining calm during this discussion!)
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Edited 10/15/2006 12:18 am ET by Hal J
Hal,
"Good for you Philip, for remaining calm during this discussion!"
It takes nerves of steel, and brass.But due to the stress I failed to bring up instances where the plane really excells such as drawer and door fitting.... however Napie was on the ball there.
Actually I just thought of another indispensible function of specifically the Stanley #4(late model)- that is the making of biltong (jerky) into shavings-one can afford to have one of these on permanent duty for this task (;)Philip Marcou
Actually I just thought of another indispensible function of specifically the Stanley #4(late model)- that is the making of biltong (jerky) into shavings-one can afford to have one of these on permanent duty for this task (;)
Hi Philip
Don't you think that a scrub plane would be better suited to this task? :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Now don't be messin' with my beautiful old cherry scrub plane! It's well over 100 years old and still going strong.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Philip,
As you know, even I (a little waster and machine-tool cheat) can enjoy a nice plane; and now also a saw or two. I like that planed look and also the swooshing (perhaps its my sexuality; or it is a substitute for violent cycling, as I am older now).
So how was it that pieces of mine that were made exclusively with them machine tools (and no planes, chisels or handsaws to be seen) have piston fit drawers and translucent sheens upon their surfaces? Perhaps I had Special Sandpaper and a Drum Sander From Heaven?
In all events, it could not be that ordinary machine tools in the hands of a second-rater like me could make proper furniture; so either an angel intervened in the process or I have forgotten to take my rose coloured glasses off and the pieces are really crap.
I realise that the handtools-are-the -only-true-way catechism cannot possibly be wrong as otherwise the universe would have ended.
Hang on, what's that ominous cracking noise!?
Lataxe, a heretic albeit caster-aside of green buttons for a while.
I totally agree with you.
I have built some really great pieces without hand planes. They are not necessary, and it is probably easier to get a piece perfect without using them.
It is also very easy to ruin a piece with them.
It is nice though, when they work well, and something nice is made using them.
It is especially nice when the shop is cold, as they warm you up in no time!
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Dear Chaps (being you and the honourable Lataxe)- I am unable to be drawn further into this strange concept other than to quote:
"It is also very easy to ruin a piece with them".
Also, what happens when one has (unwisely) made a drawer to piston fit, only to find that some time later it has become an interference fit second only to welding?.
Assuming one has not waited a whole season and been able to withdraw the drawer without destroying the piece, one will now find that there are LOCAL high spots on the drawer sides which need reducing-try that with your 18" surfacer....
And on further reflection: the drawer edges.... and that slight bevel on the drawer front lower edge?
I suspect that Lataxe has had a touch of the sun....Phiilp Marcou
Edited 10/15/2006 8:17 pm by philip
Hey Philip,
No surfacing sanders here!
It is funny how often I get calls where someone asks if I can run something through my sander. When I tell them I have none, they can hardly believe it.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal, I was talking of a jointer, to use the American word for a surfacer.
I would have thought that your shop could use one of those SCM triple belt wide belt sanders with pneumatic tracking and all. Given the choice between that and a Cobra with XJ6 running gear, Chevy motor and turbo box I would be hesitating....Philip Marcou
Ah yes, a jointer! What a timesaver.
I probably could use a big SCM sander. But then I would be in a different business and it would drive me crazy. I would love to have a CNC router though.
Hal
Edited 10/16/2006 1:34 pm ET by Hal J
Philip,
That giant belt sander can work wonders with bumpy bits (but also finger ends)....
Of course, it is a much more pleasant experience to use one of them swooshing things, especially when they are heavy, brassy, functionally perfect and very easy on the eye. Then again, they seem to require skill on the part of the swoosher, so I have been doing a self-teach swooshing course. I have only damaged a few little planks, here and there.
As to piston fit drawers that expand and contract - I make them proper, so the thing they're in expands and contracts an'all. I read it in a Taunton book you know. :-)
Did I mention that I also saw tenons with Wenzloff-machines now? Not quite up to woodrat tenons yet; but after the self-teach sawing course......well, I expect perfection in the tenons to match the perfection of the saws, which I have even bought a Special Leather Coat for.
As you may have gathered, I'm trying to innoculate myself against this handtool fetish and memories of fine machine tool-made pieces are just the thing to keep the spending in check.
Lataxe, a secret plane collector.
Philip, you are a most accomplished and exacting craftsman and I believe the usage of items of rare quality, allied to skill, leads to Valhalla. Unfortunately my only value is in my rarity. Are the dovetail angles of slope at the cutting stage critical, and taking account of differing materials, do you have to make allowances for movement in the peening stage?
I hope you do not mind my asking, and when are we going to see Isolock joints?
Best wishes, David.
David,Thanks for the praise, and I welcome questions.
You asked "Are the dovetail angles of slope at the cutting stage critical, and taking account of differing materials, do you have to make allowances for movement in the peening stage?".
The actual angles themselves happen automatically as the angle is the angle of the dovetail cutter- I machine the brass tails first, then scribe them onto the steel and I don't touch them again. It is here that I prefer to make them a tight fit,by adjusting the steel(sockets) rather than the tails, unlike others who do a random fit then pein the gaps. I reckon it is worth the extra time.This pulls the side to the sole-you can see the yellow marks on that sole in the picture, I hope. Doing it like this means that there will be no migration of side/sole when peining the double flares which I file after I have got the above mentioned fit. It is tiresome because one has to adjust the angle on the mill twice for each socket as a straight cutter is used.
Different co-efficients of expansion between brass and steel- I don't think/hope it is material.... Try not to think about it.Philip Marcou
P.S I have deleted the attachment- too big. Picasa upgraded to Picasa 2 and they have changed things .
Edited 10/16/2006 12:43 am by philip
Herewith the attachments of reasonable size.Philip Marcou
Lovely bit of machining, Philip.
Sorry, I have nothing of value to add to the topic at hand. But I had to mention the machining!
Take care, Mike
Thank you Philip. I can not believe my own stupidity in spelling pein, and in thinking of you as a later day Geppeto who sawed and filed each individual joint by hand! Yet my good friend, husband of my sister-in-law, is an outstanding model engineer who consistently wins prizes in national exhibitions. Our last discussion was on the subject of making a working scale dial gauge with a diameter of 3/8ths of an inch. Perhaps he will lend me a milling machine although his Elliot is a massive lump, and the working one twelth scale model is a bit small.
Thanks again, David
David, you should acquire that Elliot mill.Philip Marcou
David, I'm not sure what isolock joints are, but if they are what I think , then I need to get rich first....
Ditto for those integrated rivets that Karl Holtey does.
However none of the alternative joints look as good as dovetails.Philip Marcou
Jeff,
I think the prices you are seeing are misleading. Most serious bidders only bid in the last few seconds of the auction, to keep from having the price driven up. If you save the auctions you are interested in at "My Ebay" then check the sale price after the auction ends, it will give you a better idea of what they are going for on average. I tried bidding on a few bedrocks myself, but gave up because the price was way over-inflated. When you can just about buy a new Lie Nielsen for the cost of a used bedrock, it's not a bargain. And by the way, if you watch for Lie Nielsens and Veritas planes on Ebay, you will see that they often go for (used) as much as a new one from woodcraft or Lee valley. I've seen them go for more than new on a few occasions.
Lee
Lee
I'm aware of the sniping that occurs on ebay. What I really was referring to was the fact that today's selling prices on ebay for bedrocks, allbeit pretty high for 100 year old handplanes, are quite a bit less than, say, 5 or 6 years ago for the same planes.
I have some old auction sheets I printed on ebay for 606's and 605 1/2's that sold for $300.00, in not so great shape. 604 1/2's consistently sold for between $350.00 and $400.00 back then. I agree that those prices were absurd, but I was wondering what was driving the prices down.
I'm not in the market at all. I've got a near complete set of Bedrocks, as well as all the LN's which I use almost every day in the shop. Just curious about the deflation of selling prices from 5 years ago.
Jeff
Jeff,
Gotcha. I wasn't in the market for one that many years back, so I didn't realize they were that high.
Lee
I think all the wives figured out that tools were going in the shop but no furniture was coming out.
The Poseur Tool Dump might be the cause....
Charles,
You certainly do seem to have issues with amateur (poseur) woodworkers, don't you.
You should thank us! We make professionals like you shine by contrast, I should think.
Or are you just a legend in your own mind?
David Carroll
Relax, it was a joke.
You don't have to be a professional to actually use tools.
Hey, the jobs could dry up tomorrow and I'd be back to amateur status. It's perfectly possible for the phone to quit ringing at any time. Don't think I take it for granted.
Charles, some professionals do have tool dumps- huge ones in some cases. Seems to be in direct proportion to their commercial success i.e the more the phone has rung the more the cash has flowed-it can be a happy circle-try it some day.(;)Philip Marcou
I haven't met many pros who sell-off their hand tools if they're still making money with them.
Jeff:
Methinks yer right in yer observation that bedrock prices has dropped.
My observation from the past led to the axiom that they NEVER dropped below 100 bucks for the lowest price bedrock, and now it seems that they have.
Of course all depends on condition, but even without that caveat, a bedrock used to be 100$ plus.
I think it may just be a temporary thing, cause all it takes is some WWing rag to write an article expounding their virtues and the price will be right up there, for a while anyway. Methinks it was back in the 80's that 55's went for 1k$ for a tad, then they dropped back substantially (eg I just bought a 45 and 55 for 75-incomplete of course), and havent recovered that level yet. I recall when FWW did an article on scapers and that caused a peak in the "scraper" marketplace-sufficient to cause a little whining in the oldtool community.
So I'll confirm your observations at this point, with the observation that the scarcer planes are still up there in price.
Eric in cowtown
]
All I know is I want to kick myself for not selling my 605 and 606 Bedrocks as well as my 10 1/2 carraige makers planes that I bought for under $50 at auction when the feeding frenzy was in full swing. I would now have a lot of brand new Lie-Nielsen planes. 20-20 hindsight.
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