First let me say I am a hobbyist and have zero plans of doing woodworking for a profession. Let me also say that I am a teacher and a wonderfully happy married man with a beautiful daughter. My wife stays at home so money is not exactly something that grows on trees around here. With that said, let me ask the following question:
I am looking to buy a basic set of block (low angle or regular) and a smoothing plane and am wondering the value in $100 planes. I was at Lowes tonight and they have a Stanley block plane for $30. I would assume there is a difference in the quality of the cutting steel between say a Lie-Nielsen and this plane, but if I were to buy a replacement blade of higher quality…what differences would I notice between the more expensive planes and this one.
I know this question is probably offensive to all of the tool purists out there who believe in “buy the best you can afford” mentality, but for me if I can buy a plane that will do a serviceable job for $30 and then use the saved $70 and spend that money hanging out with my family…I am all in favor of that. Woodworking is a hobby for me and is not my all consuming (both time and financial) passion. I am simply wondering, what really is the difference between the different qualities of planes?
Thanks, by the way, to those involved in the Budget Tool discussion post, I was riveted by the debate and stand in awe at the philosophical – almost spiritual – ways in which many of you approach your work. Thank you for the window into your worlds.
Replies
The key with hand planes is tuning them. My first hand planes were a Stanley block plane, and a Record 4 1/2. For years they lay around because I didn't know what to do with them. Then I met a person who showed me how to flatten the planes, as well as polish and sharpen the irons. In time I acquired LN's, but I still regularly reach for those planes.
So by all means, get modest planes. Once you learn how to care for them, there is little you could not do with them that you could with more expensive planes.
rdreid,
Over the years I have accumulated half a dozen Lie Nielsen planes and scrapers and found each of them well crafted and a pleasure to use. This set includes a LN low angle block plane which sits in its space next to my Stanley low angle block (for which I paid around $40 many years ago). The majority of the time when I need a block plane I reach for the Stanley. It's quicker to adjust the depth and quicker to remove the blade for resharpening, and just seems handier to use, even though the mechanism has more slop than the LN. I usually just leave the Lie Nielsen set for very fine paring cuts and use the Stanley when the iron will need adjusting for a medium to deeper cut. Gary
Although it is increasingly rare, one can still find "wonderbin" tools in the backs of antique malls that, with a little tuning and fogiveness for having more miles on them than you do, make pretty serviceable "budgt tools." Don't waste time on any cracked or heavily pitted bodies unless the parts are serviceable; collect those and use the parts to build up one good tool from the skeletal remains of many. Some folks will say that this approach is a lot of bother, and the collectors will scoff at their non-mint condition, but I have about 20 Stanley Bailey and Bedrock planes assembled this way. What is more, well tuned and cared for, they are a little like a mongrel dog rescued from the pound; they've given me years of faithful, selfless, accurate service. The only problem I have is keeping my sons from covetously eyeballing them every time they think I'm not looking. Oh - one other thing - I buy an A2 steel bit for my planes every so often. Polished up on a water stone, they make those old Baileys sing.
Happy Shaving!
Hello rdreid,
First off, let me say that I'm also on a teacher's budget! Nevertheless, I saved and sprung for a variety of planes, including some old ones, some new ones (Lie-Nielsen), and some old ones into which I've put new Lie-Nielsen or Ray Iles irons. I've also used planes in our school's woodworking shop -- these are newer Stanleys. The woodworking teacher and I just finished tuning these planes and putting new Hock blades into them. Finally, the same teacher and I are about to embark on some wooden planemaking projects in January...
In my limited experience, I'd venture to say that the best budget-oriented path is _not_ with the new Stanley planes available at home stores. I'd go with old planes. Use them and work toward tuning them (for me, the David Charlesworth books were useful for this), and eventually, upgrade them with a Hock or Lie-Nielsen iron. I have found that I can get similar results this way as with my new LN planes -- the old Stanleys lack some of the fineness of adjustment. However they can be adjusted to take fine shavings and leave a smooth surface.
Good luck!
Andy
So you have noticed a difference between the new vs. old Stanleys? Do you have any suggestions of "standard" planes to get? I was thinking of a block, smooting, and maybe a longer plane as well. If the older tools are better should I just stick with trying to find Stanleys like that?
I appreciate it and I appreciate the advice from a fellow teacher. What grade do you teach? I'm an 8th grade history teacher...studying the Revolutionary War now. Makes me wish I could go back to that time period and watch them do what they did with wood and their craft...oh the lessons I would learn!!
Thanks for the suggestion on the book as well; I will have to check it out!
rdreid,I teach humanities and German in a high school. Right now I'm teaching a special philosophy block to 12th graders; we're reading Rousseau and talking about the French Revolution. So, you and I are looking back to the same time period!Anyhow, yes, there are differences between the new Stanleys and old ones that you can find from tool dealers, flea markets, and even eBay. The newest crop of Stanleys do not have the same fit and finish as the older ones, although I'm not an expert who could say exactly when the quality declined. I have found that the newer Stanleys that we have at the school have required fettling before they could be used for fine work.Which planes would make a nice "starter set"? This depends on what you plan to do with the planes. When I started -- yes, I am a novice, and only speak from that experience -- I read everything I could find in books and these internet forums. Some of the advice will contradict due to personal preferences, which is of fine. Other advice did not apply to me, since I work wood exclusively with hand tools -- no machinery. Some people are using machinery and using hand planes as finishing tools. Their advice will be different than someone like Adam Cherubini here, who is one of the few who really focus on techniques for working with hand tools exclusively. I think that as a history teacher you would find Adam's work and research to be interesting -- check out his articles in Popular Woodworking.My "starter set" of hand planes includes a #5 ("jack") for rough work, a #7 for use as both a jointer and a try plane, and a #4 for finish work. I use other planes as well, but those four are sufficient to prepare a board from the lumberyard into a dimensioned and finished board. There are further uses for block planes, plow planes, rabbet planes, and more, but the three that I listed above are the minimalist set. Hopefully anyone who takes serious issue with my suggestions will forgive me for being so green...
Cheers,
Andy
P.S. next you'll have to think about saws if you haven't already been infected by that bug... ;)
I am a philosophy minor from college so I am deeply jealous! I spent the first three weeks of school teaching my students that Philadelphia and Baltimore were not the names for the states of Maryland and Pennsylvania. Oh well, the kids are great.I will definitely check out Adam's articles; I just subscribed to Pop Wood not too long ago.I appreciate the thought about the "starter set." I plan on using the planes to get dimensional lumber. I have been building things using power tools in the past and I really have that since of being a factory worker. It makes the whole process very impersonal and for someone who is under no sort of time constraint, like me, I am doing it for the "connection" with the work.I have read lots of articles on dimensioning lumber both at FW and other places and it seems like there are approximately 732 different ways of doing that process.How do you typically do it and why do you do it that way? I've read lots of articles that tell you how they do it but rarely am I able to figure out the reason for their opinion, which is what I would probably learn from the most.RDBy the way...I've looked at saws and there are multiple (especially Japanese style) that have caught my attention and drool.
Hi RD,
Regarding dimensioning boards, I also read a lot of articles, each of which suggested a different method. What is working for me is to pick a method and try it for a while. Mostly, I've been following the order of steps suggested by Rob Cosman in his "rough to ready" video. Just when I think I've gotten better at a process, a new board throws some new variables at me that has me puzzling again. Sometimes I wish that Rob had covered more scenarios in this video. Rob Feeser has written an excellent article online about getting a board flat and squared-up.I have found the scrub plane to be invaluable, but pretty much the same "hogging" can be done by putting a curve on the blade of a #5, if that is what you start out with on your basic kit.I'm still experimenting with various saws and figuring out what I like best. You do get a lot of "bang for your buck" with Japanese saws -- just be sure to check the fine print that the saw is suitable for use with hardwoods (assuming that you are working with hardwoods).
-Andy
I would definitely second the recommendation for the Cosmann videos. I would also add those by Jim Kingshott. Having watched them I was able to go to hand tools completely with great confidence. I still go back to them from time to time as I learn something new each time that I missed originally. Seeing is truly believing.
RD,
<<I have read lots of articles on dimensioning lumber both at FW and other places and it seems like there are approximately 732 different ways of doing that process.
How do you typically do it and why do you do it that way? I've read lots of articles that tell you how they do it but rarely am I able to figure out the reason for their opinion, which is what I would probably learn from the most.>>
Here's one way to do it:
_____
Hand planing (rough) lumber to dimension:<!----><!----><!---->
Ideally, you need 5 planes: a scrub plane, a #5, a #7 or #8, a #4 or #4½, and a low angle block plane, but you can get away with a #5 and a low angle block plane -- it's just a little harder. (Or you can use wooden equivalents.)<!----><!---->
You'll also need a good straight edge, an accurate try or combination square, a marking/panel gauge, and a pair of winding sticks (you can make these yourself). A card scraper (with holder, if desired) is also handy.<!----><!---->
Select a board face for the reference face. Use a pair of winding sticks and a straight edge to determine the high and low spots. Mark the high spots and use the scrub plane to reduce them to the approximate level of the rest of the board. Check for twist with the winding sticks. Correct with the scrub, as necessary. By this time, you should have a roughly flat (length and width) board with no twist and with a lot of troughs in it. Use the #5 to remove the troughs from the scrub plane. (Planing diagonally or straight across the grain in both directions with the scrub plane and the #5 to remove the scrub troughs will significantly reduce tearout in most woods. Then follow up with the #5 by planing with the grain.) Once the troughs are mostly gone, use the #7 or #8 with the grain to plane the face flat. Once you get full length and full width shavings, you board is very, very close to FLAT. Check with the straight edge and winding sticks. Correct as necessary. Finish up with the smoothing plane (#4 or # 4½). Use the scraper on gnarly grain that gives your smoother a hard time, but be careful not to scrape a dip into the wood. Part 1 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->
Mark this face as your reference face. All other measurements of square, etc., will come from this face.<!----><!---->
Select one long edge, and use the #5 to roughly flatten/smooth it, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. To do this, use your straight edge to find any local high spots and trim those with the #5 first. Then use the jointer plane to flatten. Be careful to keep the edge square to the reference face. Mark this edge as your reference edge. Part 2 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->
Use the reference edge and the try/combination square to mark one of the short edges square. You can use the #5 to rough plane it flat and square to both the reference face and edge -- if the short edge is 4 to 6 or more inches wide; if not, then start with the LA block plane. (Chamfering the edges down to your cutting line will reduce tear out on the corner edges; alternative methods are to clamp a sacrificial piece of wood to the edge and let it tear out instead of your board, or to plane in from each outside edge.) Use the LA block plane to clean it up. Mark the other short edge to the desired length (saw it to rough length, if necessary) and do the same thing to the other short edge. Parts 3 and 4 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->
Use your combination square or a marking/panel gauge to mark the other (unplaned) long edge to the desired finished width. Saw to rough width, if necessary. As you did for the reference long edge, use the #5 to roughly smooth it down almost to the cutting line, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Check for straight and square to the reference face and to the 2 short edges. All 4 edges should now be square to the reference face and square to each other. Part 5 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->
Use your marking gauge, basing off the reference face, to mark the thickness of your board around all 4 edges. Flip the board over to the unplaned face and use the scrub plane to plane down almost to the marked reference lines (The bottoms of the troughs should be about 1/16 inch above the cutting line). Use the #5, and the #7 or #8, as before on the reference face, to make this face flat and square. Finish up with the smoothing plane and, as necessary, the scraper. Part 6 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->
At this time, you should have a board with 2 flat, smooth, and parallel faces, 4 flat and square edges (long edges parallel to each other, as well as short edges parallel to each other, and all 4 edges square to the two faces and to each other), and of the required thickness, length, and width, ready for whatever needs to be done next.<!----><!---->
The first board you do by hand will take what seems like an inordinately long time, but with just a little bit of practice, it becomes nearly as fast as -- and often faster than -- putting a board through a jointer, thickness planer, and sanding sequence.<!----><!---->
If you have a shooting board, you can use it to assist with steps 2, 3, 4, and 5.<!----><!---->
A couple of things to keep in mind:<!----><!---->
Keep your plane irons SHARP!!<!----><!---->
If you have only a couple of planes, open the mouth up for the initial rougher planing, and close the mouth for the finer, finish planing.<!----><!---->
Let the plane do the work -- don't force it.<!----><!---->
Skewing the plane often helps to reduce tear out and makes planing easier.
Take deliberate, slow-to-moderate speed planing strokes. This helps maintain the plane vertical to the surface/edge of the board, and gives you better control over the quality of the planing.<!----><!----><!---->
To help keep the edges square to the reference face, keep the tote (rear handle) vertical (you can usually do this by feel); you can also help keep the edges square by hooking your thumb around the rear of the front knob and curling your fingers under the plane sole against the face of the board, using your fingers as a kind of fence (don’t do this if you’ll end up with a finger full of splinters!).<!----><!---->
Try to keep the amount of wood removed from each face roughly equal; otherwise any internal stresses present may cause the board to warp or cup again, after you have put all that work and effort into making it flat.<!----><!---->
Expect to get a good upper body work out!<!----><!---->
The listed sequence is not the only sequence that this can be done in, but it works quite well. <!----><!---->
Good luck, and have fun! There's nothing quite like the sense of accomplishment you get when you have taken a piece of rough-sawn timber and turned it into a nicely finished, dimensioned board, using only hand-powered tools.
_____
I use this sequence because it allows me to get each face and edge square to each other and flat without having to go back and work a face or edge again. I also like it because, if planing any of the short, cross-grain edges causes any tear out on the long edges, they can be planed down to remove that tear out, and still have room to flatten/straighten the edge, normally without making the board too narrow.
Have fun, and good luck.
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 12/4/2006 1:03 pm by pzgren
Edited 12/4/2006 1:07 pm by pzgren
Edited 12/4/2006 1:15 pm by pzgren
I don't claim mastery or any particular expertise in prepping a board by hand, though I've done it many times. That said, I can add to pzgren's fine instructional post above a couple of thoughts gained from direct experience:
At least with any boards that have any appreciable twist of warp of any sort, I find it very useful to start by - at least roughly - addressing both wide faces first. It's hard to get one side completly flat while the one resting on the bench is teetering. If the board is not bigger than your bench, I find referencing each face against the bench top is a quick way to assess what needs taking down - e.g., a slightly twisted board will rest on the two diagonally opposite corners and teeter along that axis; plane those corners and along that diagonal, until the board sits relatively flat - same idea with a bow, etc.
Second, one of the hardest things for a beginner to get the feel of is planing narrow edges square to the wide faces. There are lots of answers to this one from simply very careful use of try squares, winding gauges, etc. to specialized edging planes (LV and LN make nice ones) to fences that attach to your plane to shooting boards. If you don't have much waste to work with (i.e., to spend correcting errors identified by your try and sticks), I find the LV edging plane to be a good bet. Shooting boards are likely even better, but have their own learning curve and time demands for set up, etc.
A cutting marking gauge - wheel or otherwise - and/or marking knife helps a lot in the process as opposed to say pencil marks. When the plane approaches and reaches a sliced line, you can see it on the edge being planed and hence you are much less likely to make mistakes and can even out the edge to perfect straightness and uniformity much more easily.
Edited 12/4/2006 12:02 pm ET by Samson
Edited 12/4/2006 12:10 pm ET by Samson
You can cover a lot of ground with a block plane and a #5, depending on what you plan to make. If you find that you want to make larger pieces and joint long edges or smooth large tops, a jointer plane may help, or you can take the wood in and have it machine planed/jointed. Personally, I would (and did) buy some older used Stanleys. Some from antique shops, after making sure I knew something about the prices and what to look for (and some great deals), some on ebay. I missed a mint #5 from about 1910 by 3 seconds, that went for $34. There is no new Stanley #5 that will sell for $34. The older ones are better, they just usually need some care to get them to really work well. You're going to see every method on Earth for flattening the sole, sharpening and honing the iron, feeding, what they should sleep on, etc. There are also some really good books on hand planes out there and Taunton is having a book sale now (30% off). Don't worry about spending big bucks on a sharpening system until you know you need it. I use wet silicon carbide paper of varying grits (I go to 12000) on a polished granite floor tile. I do it wet because no iron dust goes airborn. I wipe them down, check it for flatness or sharpness and coat them with paste wax. My #4 kicks butt on hard maple. I also have a Craftsman block plane that I got from my dad's things. I tuned it up and it's pretty good, too. I'm pretty sure he would have used his planes more if the info on sharpening and honing had been as easily available at the time. My #4 cost $25 and some time. The others cost at most, $75 (old #7 jointer). The tile cost $12 at a building supply liquidator. I buy the paper when it's on sale, or at Menard's. I use a cheap honing guide that can be bought from Menard's, Home Depot, Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Wood Craft and Rockler, for less than $12 when it's on sale. It keeps the edge square to the sides and I mark the iron to line it up for maintaining the angle, just to save time. Once it's sharp, honing removes very little steel. Replacement irons will probably necessitate work on the plane to get it to fit correctly. I would start with the original iron and see how it goes. If you just can't get it to cut fine whispies, check in here and someone can get you where you need to be. There are some good deals out there, you just need to find them. Don't buy from people who charge a lot for shipping.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I've been doing quite a bit of research on sharpening as well. It is great to get some effective albeit cheap solutions! ThanksRD
Fww hosts an annual seminar at Williamsburg. All eighteenth century work- Great learning opportunity.
When is the seminar?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
two three day sessions in January- might be tough if you are a teacher. However you might plan a year in advance. For more info visit the Colonial Williamsburg site. Check out their seminar listing.
I may have to check into that seminar, being a history teacher. Maybe I could pawn that off as a professional development opportunity and get approval from the big guy to go!
Here's a couple internet sites that have proven valuable to me for used planes. (3rd paragraph)As many others stated, older Stanley's are hands-down better. I can't explain it to you unless you have both and work them. They weigh more and flatten down well.http://www.sydnassloot.com/tools.htmhttp://www.brasscityrecords.com/There's the links. Both places really get an old plane working well and tell you what to expect. They do the dirty work of restoration, you get to benefit from their efforts. You will need to fine-tune them.My first 2 planes were pre-WWII era 60 1/2 block and #4. Bought both on ebay for cheap. I had to learn how to flatten and sharpen correctly with these. The lessons learned from tuning up a single plane are priceless. My 60 1/2 ebay plane and my #4 ebay plane are still my favorites even though I've added more.If I had to guide you...........I'd get 3 planes. First a Stanley 60 1/2 ($25 ebay). Second, a #4 Stanley ($50 ebay). Finally a Stanley Rabbet or Shoulder plane ($60 ebay).With those 3 planes, you'll do very well for awhile.
Thank you for the links, I have been checking those out and they look like great sites!
Just wanted to pipe in and, at the risk of being excessively redundant, say that the time and effort put into restoring an old plane is completely worth it.
Last night I stayed up till well after midnight putting the finishing touches on three planes I finally got around to restoring. They are a Stanley #5, Millers Falls #9(equal to Stanley#4), and a 60 1/2 low angle block. Orginally I was only going to flatten the soles and hone the blades, but after I took them apart and started cleaning them up, I could'nt stop. In additon to lapping, I ended up polishing the sides, re-jappaning, replacing the irons and chipbreakers, filing the mouth openings and all contact points on the frog, waxing & buffing, and even replacing a couple handles and knobs.
True, I spent alot more time on them than I had planned, but now I have a set of planes that perform beautifully, and that I am proud of. I feel that having gone through that process, getting up close and intimate with every part of each tool gives me a relationship and understanding of it that I wouldn't otherwise have, and certainly would not have got from buying expensive L-Ns and using them right out of the box.
I swear, I intended this to be a brief comment. I guess it's in my nature...I just couldn't stop. :~)
Max
Pictures?
-Ryan C.
While I love the 4 L-N planes I have been able to pick up over the last several years, this is a very small portion of my selection of planes and not a single one is critical to my work. I bought them simply because I admire them as functional artwork. I have an assortment of old Stanley, Record, wooden, and even a few old Crafstman planes that I picked up at yard sales and "antique" shops over the years that see the bulk of work in my shop. And believe me, when I started accumulating these planes while a student, a teacher's salary would have been a princely sum! Most of my planes were under $20.00. Some of my favorite to use are a wooden jack that I have converted to a scrub, an old Stanley low angle block plane (probably the most used plane in my shop) and a few old wooden moulding planes, the most used of which is a clapboard beading plane. All have the original irons. I've made some pretty nice furniture with these old tools.
I think that folks on a tight budget are, in some ways, better off -- they are forced to focus on developing the skills to tune and use servicable tools to achieve good results. (Kind of like teaching a kid to do long division so he won't HAVE to rely on a calculator.) Whenever I find myself lusting after an expensive new tool, I always think back to my many visits over the years to the cabinet shop in Williamsburg and try to remember if I've seen any of that particular tool being used to make the wonderful pieces that come out of that, and similar, shops. Apprentice cabinetmakers spent years learning how to practice their craft using simple hand tools. For me, it's this learning process and the application of developed skills -- the journey -- that's the most fun. The finished piece is just the destination.
Although I do regularly use power tools to more quickly pump out pieces when required, if I want to make something purely for fun, I'll unplug and reach for my hand tools, very few of which are high-end. And, IMHO, these pieces are my best work. "Fine Woodworking" does not necessarily mean "Fine Tools"!
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
rdreid,
I'm gonna second the suggestions to look for an old plane. While flea markets or estate sales are one way to go, there is a group called the Mid-West Tool Collectors' Association (MWTCA) that will be a good place to meet resources. This group meets regularly, there are sure to be members in your area, and the collectors always have tools that they are willing to sell. Google for them, the website will get you started.
Tool collectors are good people for woodworkers to know- these guys do not have the same parameters that we do, in what makes a tool desirable, they are looking for the unusual or rare, makers or model #s, and often have duplicates of the more common ones. Then too, a collector may not have the woodworking skills to make handles, totes, knobs etc for their acquisitions. A mutually beneficial relationship may be kindled by the offer to help with the restoration of a basket case, or to make those handle-less chisels saleable.
Ray Pine
The price is not always an indicator of quality - but when comparing a LN block plane to an new Stanley - price and quality are directly proportional.
I have a complete line of Stanley bench planes bought off ebay, most cost in the $20 range and landed at the door these averaged $30. The planes needed cleaning up, blades sharpened and they work fine! Add to this collection some LN (I use their block plane more than any other plane I own) and a variety of LV (their bevel up planes are excellent).
The Stanley planes when purchased from reputable sellers on ebay (99%+) are usually a safe bet. The old Stanleys are good, the new ones are not so good.
Possible Game Plan:
Remember you have youth, energy, time, only money is a limiting resource! Buy smart and enjoy wood working because somewhere in this equation is the cost of wood! :)
Have fun with you first plane(s). Its the journey into woodworking and the fun along the way that you will remember.
Bob
Even a tool with a lesser quality of say a Veritas or Lie-Nielsen in the hands of a skilled craftsman will give great results if tuned properly. Watch some of the demos at woodworking shows and see how the demonstrator can talk and work at the same time and make it look easy. Look back into the issues of FWW and look for tuning planes to see how to tune them and you must have a sharp iron to make it work correctly.
There's plenty of value (and performance) in the more expensive planes: the truism that you get what you pay for and pay for what you get decidedly applies to hand planes. Having said that, however, I have to agree with the others who suggest old planes.
IME, the best value in hand planes is pre-WWII Stanleys (Millers Falls, Sargent, etc.). On eBay, for example, you should be able to get nice examples that will require only a moderate amount of tuning for reasonable cost:
#60½: $10 - $30 (low angle adjustable mouth block plane)
#9½: $10 - $30 (standard angle adjustable mouth block plane)
#4: $20 - $40 (smoothing plane)
#5: $25 - $60 (jack plane)
#7: $35 - $100 (jointer plane)
These are rough guestimates of current ranges for the various size planes; you may end up paying a little less or a little more....and you'll likely get even better deals at yard or estate sales, the flea market, etc.
I have tuned up a couple of newly-manufactured low-cost planes (Groz, Anant, and a 2000 vintage Stanley #6). They can be made into "usable" planes, but there is a serious, time-consuming, effort required, and, because of the relatively low quality of the casting and machining tolerances, is really not worth the effort, IMO. You will also have to factor in the cost of replacing the iron and probably the chipbreaker. For example, none of the Groz irons that I have honed would hold an edge: after 4 or 5 passes on non-knotty pine, the edge had turned on every single one of them.... I suppose you could re-heat treat them, if you wanted to go to that trouble, but that is something that really should have been done correctly as part of the manufacturing process. Sooo....your $30 plane with replacement iron (approx $35) and chipbreaker (also approx $35) has now turned into a $65 / $100 plane, plus the value of your labor. Now you're looking at LN "cost" for what you have put into the plane, but very likely will not have anything near LN performance. (I keep the Stanley #6 on my shelf to remind me why I don't buy new Stanley planes.....)
On the other hand, if you buy a quality vintage plane, do the tuning, and even if you have to replace the iron and chipbreaker, you will approach LN performance for the time and money you've put into your plane.
<<I know this question is probably offensive to all of the tool purists out there who believe in "buy the best you can afford" mentality,...>>
Why should this be offensive? (rhetorical question) If the "best you can afford" is an inexpensive vintage Stanley that needs a little tuning, what is wrong with that? To me, it sounds more like getting the best deal available and being very smart about how you spend your money..... After all, there are other priorities in life besides tools and woodworking!! ;-)
If you decide to go with vintage planes, you'll probably want to read Mike Dunbar's Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Handtools. The chapters on hand planes are very detailed and thorough.
Good luck and have fun!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
I don't know about rdreid, but I really appreciate the time you took to give some good ideas about what planes to purchase. I do thank all who answered because there is much good wisdom in the responses.
I know I'm not the OP, but this is good stuff for anyone who is interested in starting into hand planes.
Thanks,
Joel
I couldn't agree more. I am constantly amazed at the selflessness of these people. One day my goal is to have something to share about my experiences as well. One day student become master (use your best Mr. Miyagi voice for maximum impact with that line)RD
Joel,
I'm glad that the information was of use to you. Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Have you considered purchasing Hock Krenov style blades and making your own wooden planes? I have made several of them to compliment my collection of LV and LN planes and enjoyed making them very much. The performance of these planes is very good. As a plus, you can purchase one or two blades and use them in many plane bodies that you make. If you choose to give this a try, I would recommend the book Making and Mastering Wood Planes by David Finck. Be warned, I initially tried making my own planes because I was cheap, but after making the first and seeing the fluffy shavings from it I was hooked. I still enjoy making new ones from time to time just for the fun of it.
Shawn.
Edited 12/1/2006 3:17 pm ET by ShawnW
I hadn't thought about that but will have to give it some thought...thanks for the resource recommendation too!
rdreid
Let me first say that you should never worry about offending anyone with a question around here. Those that get offended do so if the wind is blowing in the wrong direction. Most of us are here to enjoy ourselves and help each other out, and get an occassional laugh along the way (especially from the Festool threads!!).
My opinion on this matter would be for you to forego getting a new plane, and look for an older used block plane on ebay or at a local flea market. For one, you'll spend less money. The new Stanley is going to need just as much work as a used flea market find to get it to operate properly and help you enjoy using it. You really won't need to replace the stock blade as long as you can flatten and sharpen it. You can now take the extra $15 - $20 saved and use a little of it to get a good book on handplanes. There are several out there. I'd recommend The Handplane Book by Garret Hack. It's an excellent book that will teach you all you need to know how to tune and use just about any plane you'll need.
I have stated here many times for folks to spend as much or more than they can for purchasing great quality tools. However, what has been misunderstood about this statement is that I have directed it mainly towards woodworking professionals who are earning their living with their tools. For a hobbyist, like it seems you are, it would be wiser to learn the "How To's" on a cheaper plane. Once you've picked up the learning curve, you can decide for yourself if you wish to slip down that slippery slope into acquiring as many planes as you can.
Enjoy the peace and quiet of a the swoosh of your new plane.
Jeff
PS Let me edit by saying that I did not read all the posts in this thread. Much of what I said probably has already been stated.
Edited 12/1/2006 2:19 pm ET by JeffHeath
Edited 12/1/2006 2:23 pm ET by JeffHeath
Although I've been in the same situation (looking for cheap capability) I opted to go with what's thought of as high end tools after trying repeatedly and failing repeatedly to find any capability in the cheap tool route.. That said... I respect that it's your cash and your decision to make..
With a tight budget, tool choice is really something you can't afford to get wrong. With that in mind, I'd caution against the garage sale or ebay route... neither come with any guarantee that what you buy will be capable of doing what you intend irrespective of how well you learn to tune. There is another way however... Buy 2nd hand tools from someone who knows what they're doing...
Have a look at the link, do some research and if you haven't changed your mind, contact the site owner... He may be able to help..
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
With that in mind, I'd caution against the garage sale or ebay route... neither come with any guarantee that what you buy will be capable of doing what you intend irrespective of how well you learn to tune.
Mike, FWIW: I don't disagree that there is never any guarantee in life, but on ebay, at least, the seller is indeed guaranteeing that they have accuarately described what they are selling (if it says no rust of pitting and it comes with any, you can return it, etc.). Anyway, more to the point, I have bought between 6 and 10 Stanley (typically SW) 5's from various sellers on eBay over the years as once I tuned my first, various friends and relatives were interested and asked if I'd get them one. None, not one, were difficult to tune, and all performed very well - sometimes without even needing any tuning at all. I've had similar purely positive experiences with other planes I've gotten through e-bay including 3, 4, 7, 40, 10, 18, 65, and 78 to name a few).
Mr. Leach is great, and he and others like him do indeed offer a further measure of assurance that you're getting a good user, but in my experience, eBay is not all that much of a risk. Happy shavings.
Samson... it's a relief to hear that in this day and age, honesty is alive and well.
Evidently I didn't do too well, but the point I was trying to cover was... how does someone with minimal experience and limited budget find a tool they can count on while avoiding disappointment? My conclusion was that the safest bet was to have an experienced hand involved somewhere along the line... I assumed that the buyer was looking for cheap capability; from experience I know that of the two criteria, capability is far more important if disappointment is to be avoided...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hi Mike,
I agree with you completely about eBay and garage sales, and I really should have added more in my original suggestion of those routes. I'd say that the dealer route is the safest, but eBay and garage sales might offer even cheaper alternatives. It's true that an absolute beginner won't know what to look for, but given a few pointers, a $5-10 bargain is a $5-10 bargain, and if it's not usable it can probably be viewed as a relatively inexpensive lesson! I also second the recommendation to contact Patrick Leach at supertool.com -- very pleasant to deal with, accurate descriptions of condition, and prompt shipping. If you go to Patrick's website this weekend and get on his email this, his Dec list should come out quite soon...
-Andy
Mike,
"how does someone with minimal experience and limited budget find a tool they can count on while avoiding disappointment?"
Larry Williams gave some good information recently on this forum....checking the mouth (for instance). But even better...I went to the Lie Nielson Tool show yesterday afternoon. It was small but packed with tallent. In addition to the full array of LN stuff he had Sauer& Steiner with their custom made infills and L. Williams was invited but got snowed in at the airport. Everyone was encouraged to play with all the planes...yup, the memory of that infil jointer will stay with me for some time.
Between the plane playing/discussions and sharpening tips it was one of the best learning experiences to be had. Hopefully Tom will do this again elsewhere.
I will definitely check out his site. Thanks for the tip!
Mr. Reid,
Although what you have received so far has some variation, I think there are two key points.
1. A great piece of woodworking can be built by someone with good skills and poor tools. But, someone with poor skills cannot build a great woodworking piece even if they have the best tools.
2. So, IMHO, your priority should be on your skills. Do what you think best with your money.
I see you live in the Indianapolis area. I don't know for certain, but my guess is you can find a substantial number of good old Stanleys at flea markets, auctions, and antique malls. Maybe you have a Rockler, Woodcraft, or some other store in the region. See if there is a woodworking club there. Go to the stores and ask for some names of some of the woodworkers in the area.
If you know how to teach, you know how to talk. (I used to teach years ago.) Network.... Get to know folks. Tell them what you are looking for. Tell them you need some good old tools, but you need them cheap.
Then, if you don't know how, learn how to sharpen, hone, fettle, and restore an old plane to great usability. Then, go make sawdust and shavings.
When your skills grow, you will be amazed at how the better and best tools begin to become available to you.
Just my thoughts,
Alan - planesaw
I am actually heading to Woodcraft today so I will ask them about experts and clubs. I would love to get involved with a group of people who do woodworking because at this point it is me and my tools.RD
I have a collection of mostly Stanley planes with an average age predating WWII, a good many of which predate WWI, all of which I have managed to tune up until they are capable of more finesse than I. I have picked them up for peanuts in fleamarkets until I have one to three of every size and shape from a #101 all the way up to a #8. The prize though is the #2 given me for Christmas by my dad when he was 88. That's the one he picked up in Beaumont, Texas in 1942, the one I drooled over as I peeped under his elbow while he worked at his bench and "dressed me up" with the fresh shavings he'd just made with it.
Going with quality doesn't always mean going with new or expensive. Quality new ain't cheap, but I find my LV pocket and medium shoulder planes a joy to use, worth every penny. On the other hand, when the joints just aren't going together for me, I pull out one of my refugees from the recycling bin and work on tuning it up. Great therapy.
What a good thread you got started!
Did someone here say it was difficult or that great pride should be taken in its accomplishment? Yeah, I didn't think so.
A beginner asked for suggestions and tips on how to successfully accomplish it with hand tools alone. To a beginner, even the elementary needs explanation. And all of us, as we are about to embark on something new, benefit from the counsel of those with some experience.
Do you also sneer at kindergarteners who take pride in having learned the alphabet because they haven't yet learned to read?
Edited 12/4/2006 2:08 pm ET by Samson
Samson,
You're absolutely right. Not only that but the original nasty comment lacked substance -- we're supposed to believe that there is more advice about "low-skill" processes??? I suppose that's why there are so many articles about making dovetails and getting drawers to fit properly. It's clear as day that it is a fundamental skill, not a "low skill." I'm sometimes amazed by the nastiness of some individuals on this forum.
-Andy
Edited to add: The forum moderators have kindly removed the post in question -- thank you.
Edited 12/5/2006 8:04 am ET by VTAndy
So much great knowlage and wisdom about this subject I just had to throw something in from the peanut gallery. So I'm doing this job and I really need a specific tool to do it right , I go down to the hardware and buy what I can afford, come back to the shop, finnish the job. Bring it in, get paid,and everyone eats. The next weekend, at the flea market I spy a really nice plane. My heart goes out and next thing you know I'm walking away with a real treasure that I stole for a few bucks. I think they call this the" grazing principle" . It works for me but I don't think it'll work for every one. stay safe have fun.
Metod,
Greetings again!!
<<Rough-dimensioning lumber by hand is a low skill task...>>
I agree that rough dimensioning -- whether by hand or with power tools -- is a relatively low-skill task. On the other hand, final dimensioning by hand (or with power tools) requires a bit more skill to get faces and edges square and parallel, smooth, and ready for....dovetails, finger joints, dadoes, mitres, sliding dovetails, application of the finish, etc.
Regardless of the (perceived) skill level required, for someone who (currently) lacks the skill, knowledge, or experience, going through the learning curve and developing those skills is a reason for a bit of pride and sense of accomplishment. (After all, none of us started out woodworking with a high order of woodworking skills -- we all had to learn a lot to get to whatever particular level of skill we currently possess....) Gaining those skills helps prepare for learning the next set of skills.....
At risk of stating a blinding flash of the obvious, one also must remember that (rough or final) dimensioning of a board is but one step on the journey to a finished project.....
;-)
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Metod,
<<Got to work a lot more on my social graces...nah, not yet... ;)>>
If it weren't for us rude, crude, lewd, and socially unacceptable peasants....the more refined folk would have no one at which to poke fun... ;-)
"Napkins...we don't need no <<censored by the Good Taste Police>> napkins: that's what we have sleeves for...." -- an anonymous Grunt of my previous acquaintance
;-)
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Being a teacher of 8th graders, 75% of which read at or below 3rd grade, I have allowed myself to joyfully dumb down my life and take appreciation in the mundane and skill-less areas of my life. To quote an immortal and brilliant philosopher, "if you cannot meet the expectations then lower the expectations." My students have taught me this well.
In all seriousness I do understand your post. I do very much want to progress beyond simple tasks such as dimensioning lumber, however, I have had no one in my life to learn from and therefore am the quintessential newbie. I deeply appreciate the suggestions of those on this post. I am AMAZED that I have gotten 50+ responses to my question.
My plan is to get some planes and just take a stab at it with some "el-cheapo" wood. As a question from a budget standpoint - is it possible to just hone a replacement blade with a curve to use in a different plane as a scrub plane?
By the way, Woodcraft in Indy was a HUGE help with "learning about hand tools." I asked about clubs, classes, woodworkers with skills in that area and my response was "I don't know anything about hand tools, just buy a plane and see how it goes." Life altering I do have to say!!
Thanks again to all of you for true advice!
As a question from a budget standpoint - is it possible to just hone a replacement blade with a curve to use in a different plane as a scrub plane?
How rough is the rough stock you hope to plane? A dedicated scrub - like a Stanley 40 - is not absolutely necessary in all cases. It is helpful for really rough stock, or stock that is way thicker than you need so you need to remove alot of wood efficiently. Otherwise, like if you were messing with some palette wood or even two-by pine stock that is already semi-dressed to an extent, a dedicated scrub isn't essential.
If I were you and wanted to spend $100 or less, I'd get on eBay and score two sweetheart vintage No. 5 Stanley Jack planes and pay no more than $30-35 for each (these are common and therefore cheap). Remember, you don't need pretty - paint splatters and 50% jappaning are fine - you just want the wood and metal to be sound. You won't even need replacement blades, as blades from this era are perfectly adequate for your purposes. Hone one (the rougher of the two) with a pronounced camber and set the frog for a wide mouth for hogging. This is your de facto scrub. Set the other one like an oversized smoother with a VERY slight camber and much tighter mouth. Spend your remaining $35 on a decent older Stanley block plane - again look for the "SW" or "sweetheart" as an easy way to tell that it is of a good vintage ; a 65, 18, 60 1/2 or several other models would be fine choices. Study up a little in the Stanely Blood and Gore section at http://www.supertool.com to learn a bit about the various bench and block planes and their details. With these three planes and some wood, you will have some fun, and maybe even an epiphany or two. Happy shavings!
Edited 12/4/2006 9:16 pm ET by Samson
I think that will probably be the direction I will go on the planes. Sounds like a great suggestion. I have been on Ebay checking them out and have found a couple. The only question that has raised is the difference between corrugated and smooth bottoms. What is the pros/cons of those?
Thanks!
The only question that has raised is the difference between corrugated and smooth bottoms. What is the pros/cons of those?
I use smooth soles exclusively and have never tried the corrugated versions, not so much because I know the corrugated versions to be inferior, but because that's just what I started with and have been comfortable with. So I cannot speak from experience as far as comparing the two or recommending one over the other.
The difference, as I understand it is that the corrugations mean less surface, and therefore less friction - i.e., they may be easier to push in some circumstances. Some folks swear by the corrugated style. Perhaps one will speak up and enlighten us both. I must say, in the back of my mind I always mistrusted the corrugated versions as providing less flexibility to perform certain tasks well: e.g., would the corrugations potentially iinterfere with edge jointing on a very thin board? Would the corrugations make planing small parts that you hold in your hand and pull over the plane (upside down) sole difficult? I dunno, but I never imagined the corrugations would be of enough benefit to find out.
rdreid,
I have a #7 with a corrogated bottom.
It's come down to me from my dad and my grand dad.
I primarily use it for what my grandpa probably used it for---working on doors on old houses.("course the same houses weren't as old when grandpa was working on 'em LOL)
theoretically, it might be easier to flatten a corrogated sole-------- but in practice I haven't found this one to be un-acceptably flat--so i haven't done much to the sole.
my use of the #7 is generally on things so large that I wouldn't be concerned about losing them in the corrogations-----and I don't think that would be much of a problem on my #5 either( although that one is NOT corrogated.
I have also heard that the corrogated soles are a bit more rare----and so perhaps worth marginally more. I wouldn't know about that-mine are definitely in the "user" classification--so I am not terribly concerned about marketability.
If you have the chance-- go to the library and look at the 2001-2002 FWW tools and shops issue. this is gonna sound kind of silly--but mario rodriguez had a nice little article about a basic collection of hand tools. I can tell you that with the addition of a cordless drill - i take a very similar collection of tools into old houses to work-and you can get a nice bit of work done with VERY basic stuff. Add a compound miter saw to the list and you would REALLY be suprised what you can do.
just collect the stuff bit by bit as you need it. some things you will obviously need first--- but sometimes something on the list comes along at a deal before you REALLY need it-and you pick it up anyway.
BTW,-personally I am looking for a "user", #92 or #93 shoulder plane. I have muddled along this long without it--so i can continue to muddle along---but I would really like to pick one up if I could.
Best of Luck,
Stephen
RD,
<< The only question that has raised is the difference between corrugated and smooth bottoms. What is the pros/cons of those?>>
For normal usage and all practical purposes, there are none. Corrugated soles are marginally easier to flatten, if your plane required that, otherwise, they are functionally pretty much the same. Some will say that they are easier to use on woods that have a lot of pitch (pine, Douglas fir, etc), but I have not noticed any differences.
Some are (much) rarer, on say a #2, some of the bench rebates, and similar planes, but then you are getting into the rarified world of real expensive collector planes. For user planes, the price is usually about the same, as is the function.
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
I just had to comment as I am finishing up tuning an old Miller's Falls 9c smoothing plane. The plane cost me $25.00. It took several hours to tune the thing up, however, it takes paper thin shavings now with ease and leaves a silky smooth finish on oak. Sometimes, I think it may be best for hobbyists such as myself to save some money and perhaps learn from the process of tunig or refurbishing an older tool. Thanks.
" Sometimes, I think it may be best for hobbyists such as myself to save some money and perhaps learn from the process of tunig or refurbishing an older tool. "
Yes, it is instructive, and also gives a bench mark for comparisons with other types of planes.
That Millers Falls is a nice little plane too- they were sold in the then Rhodesia when I was a boy.Philip Marcou
Barrel,
Nice plane, and real nice shavings, too! From those fluffy shavings, it looks like you did a great job of tuning it up!
I agree with you that it is a very useful exercise to clean-up/tune-up an older plane. One learns a lot from doing so. You already know this, because you've gone through the process.
Although there are several LNs in my plane inventory, the majority are tuned-up pre-WWII Stanleys. The performance of the older planes is usually very satisfactory; the LNs are generally reserved for woods/grain that the Stanleys don't handle very well.
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 12/6/2006 10:25 am by pzgren
Hi RD,Regarding the scrub plane, I concur that a #5 with a cambered blade is a good way to go.Do you already have a workbench or are you going to build one?-Andy
I was thinking about building White's "New Fangled Workbench" from FWW.
Do you have a link to the Budget Tool discussion that you mentioned? Thanks.
-b
I know exactly your situation.
I purchased a WWII era Stanly 60 1/2, #4, and Rabbet plane on ebay. Total cost was a little over $100. The good thing about buying old is the quality of the steel. However, the blades aren't up to snuff with today's steel.
While the old blades work, they don't keep an edge like the new blades. That said, I purchased a new blade for my 60 1/2, and kept the old blades on the #4 and Rabbet. All the blades work very well, it's just I have the sharpen the older ones more.
Another great thing about old planes (for me), was that I needed to go through the steps of getting them shop ready....i.e. reflatten the sole, resharpen the blade, file any spurs on the mating surfaces. A knowledgable planer is a good planer.
I just recenltly purchase the exact planes you are looking for, all for less than $150.
Not only was the price good, but my planes really work GREAT. I can plane curly maple without tearout with my upgraded Stanley #4 smoother, and the Lie-Nielson #102 iron block plane takes feathery shaving on difficult tropical hardwoods.
Before I got the lie-nielson, I bought a stanley block plane from lowes, sharpened the blade, and tested it. It did not perform very well. The quality of the casting was poor at best, and the blade just didn't sit firmly on the bed. So I returned it, (thank you lowes) and ordered the lie-nielson #102 for $75. The difference was AMAZING. By the time you buy a better blade for the stanley, you will have spent almost $75, so why not get the best?
The block plane is a different story. As a hobbiest and a college student, I just didn't have the $250 for a lie-nieson, veritas, or clifton. So I found an old Stanley #4 on ebay for $17.50! I replaced the stock blade with a Hock A-2 blade and chip breaker ($50), and was able to plane almost anything.
The other most important thing I did was flatten the sole of the stanley, and adjust the mouth for a much finer cut. I had to file the mouth a little to get the edge straight and clean in front of the blade.
The good news is, I LOVE the results, and it didn't break the bank.
Since then I have made a few wooden body planes myself, which with their thicker blades, higher angles (50 degrees) and better blade support, perform even better than my stanley.
These only cost me about $70 each ($55 for the blade) but you have to be willing to invest some time and know that your craftsmanship will directly influence the performance of your plane.
Keep in mind the other investment here is sharpening. I spent $100 on Norton waterstones to get good results. But you should look at FWW's article (#184) on the SCARY SHARP system. It's perfect for plane blades, and you can make a simple wooden honing jig
to make life easier.
Good luck!
I hear your issues about only so much money to go around. I have bought a number of Lie-Nielsen planes and I am hooked but before I bought them I would hunt down local flea markets and garage sales. You would be surprised that you can find an old Stanley block plane for ten bucks or so. Take it home, clean it and learn a whole bunch about it. Worst case scenario you would have to spend another twenty on a new cutter but would be left with a far better plane then the Lowe's purchase.
All the best.
Based on what I have seen at the home centers, most of the Stanley planes they sell are English and have plastic knobs and totes. I have collected handplanes for a number of years and think you's be better off with some old Stanley or Millers Falls planes from a flea market, garage sale, EBay etc. There are still many bargains to be had especially #4 and #5's and blocks. You'll spend some time cleaning and tuning and probably be much happier with the end results than with one of the new home center planes. Also, get the Handplane book by Garrett Hack, you'll be hooked.
I second (3rd, 4th?) the comments made about making your own Krenov style handplanes using David Finck's book as a guide. They're cheaper, better, more fun to make, and easier to use than any metal plane I've used.
Finck's book is also a great introduction to woodworking generally; he talks about tuning your other handtools and machines, best practices for plane use, which kinds you'll need for what jobs, and other tips/tricks that I've found invaluable. Once you get the hang of it, you can make a plane in a weekend, limited only by the wood you have and the room you have on your shelves!
I have built two planes from David Finick's book, which I just love.I also purchased the blades from his website. They are really thick A-2 steel blades
specifically made for handmade wood planes. So far I don't know of any other makers of A-2 blades for the krenov-style plane. Hock only makes a HCS blade.If you haven't tried one of David's blades, let me be the first to recommend one.
I think that may be my next project is to try out making my own plane. I will have to get the Finick book. Thanks!
RD
I highly recommend Lie-Nielsen. I am a woodworking hobbyist, and have been all my life. Instead of spending valuable time trying to resurrect a used plane, or tune a new one one of lesser quality, I would rather use my Lie-Nielsen #4 Smoother and the 5 1/2, right out of the box with minimal honing. Although they are received ready to go, and light years ahead of their competition, my nephew and I like to hone them a bit, following David Charlesworth's recommendations.
My nephew who is 23 years old and is learning woodworking, also use a Lie-Nielsen 7 for jointing. The low angle block plane is unbelievable on end grain. When you have only so much time to spend in the shop, use it making your projects with superior instruments. A real time saver is building a shooting board and using my Lie-Nielsen #9. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that the optional "hot dog' atachment is now "standard equipment". Until recently it was a $50 option on a $350 tool.
The DVD's by David Charlesworth are very helpful in sharpening and use of these tools. I make projects for my family, and want to give the very best and have fun doing it. The Lie-Nielsen tools that I have are more than tools, they are works of art. Being a lawyer that doesn't waste time playing golf, but building furniture for my family, I appreciate being able to count on tools that do the job correctly, every time, and allow me to spend more time using the tools than tuning them.
Greg
Um, Greg, yeah LN makes fantastic planes no doubt, and some, like yourself, may well consider tuning a vintage Stanley, for example, a waste of valuable time that might otherwise be spent in the shop making furniture. But, counsel, please note the question asked (would the court stenographer please read back the question from the record):
"money is not exactly something that grows on trees around here. "
"I am looking to buy a basic set of block (low angle or regular) and a smoothing plane and am wondering the value in $100 planes." (emphasis added)
"I am simply wondering, what really is the difference between the different qualities of planes?"
While the LN's are indeed a pleasure, would you agree that a well-tuned vintage Stanley will do 90% of all day-to-day planing tasks as well as a LN (smoothing highly figured wood the most obvious exception) and at a small fraction of the price? (please forgive the leading question; this is cross after all)
;-)
would you agree that a well-tuned vintage Stanley will do 90% of all day-to-day planing tasks as well as a LN (smoothing highly figured wood the most obvious exception) and at a small fraction of the price?
I hate to sound nit-picky... but it's been my experience that, no... when trying to work with new Stanley (I was dumb enough to try this with 3 planes) or Record (just one block plane), that irrespective of their state of tune they can't hold a candle to how an L-N performs... not in the same zip code much less the same ballpark...
I reckon that between them, I put maybe 30 hours into trying to remove all the manufacturing defects (aka tuning)... while their performance improved significantly over their "out the box" condition, there was little I could do about their pathetic blades, or the block planes literally falling appart in my hands as I used em...
The bench planes fared little better; the only way they'd take a shaving with minimal chatter was to back the frog up to the point where the back of the blade was butted against the rear of the throat... how the heck do ya control tear out with the throat wide open...? Then there's having to resharpen them every hour... Their plastic handles really do a number on your hands too... After a day with a jack plane the heel of my hand would be rubbed raw...
I know the standard arguement is to ditch the stock blades in preference for a L-N or Hock replacement (wich truly trandforms the plane from a paperweight into a tool you can use (on well behaved hardwoods) but why should I have to pay half as much again for decent blades and chip breakers for something that wasn't fit for purpose when sold?
I'm a wireman to trade, making a reasonable living from my expertese with hand tools; if someone were to suggest that I'd be expected to put hours into tuning a new crimping tool or wire stripper I'd be quite justified in thinking they were nutz.... When new, these tools should be in their highest state of calibration... Why should woodworking tools be any different..??
I'll stand by my earlier advise... if ya can't buy a decent (i.e. pre war) 2nd hand tool from a reliable dealer, save.... invest in a quality tool. Far better that ya do that than fritter away yer hard earned on cheap paperweights that cause no end of frustration and self doubt...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Not to be nit-picky, Mike, but did you miss the word "vintage" in the language of mine you quoted?
I agree the new stuff is pretty much useless irretrievable garbage.
nope.... not missed at all.. that's why I stressed I was addressing my gripes at new Stanley / Record...
closing comments agreed with you...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
The difference between the qualities of planes are that the high quality Lie-Nielsen planes are made to work, and be a work of art, and the lesser quality planes are soon relegated to serving as paperweights or door stops, because of frustration in the amount of time it takes to make them functional. Time is too valuable to waste tinkering with inferior tools.
Ever actually use a 1910 Bedrock 607?
How about a SW vintage 4 or 5?
1940 era 4 1/2?
How about a SW 65 or 18 block?
Doorstops? Paperweights?
Hardly!
I own examples of each and other vintage Stanleys. I also own LN planes. I'm not just guessing. I know of what I speak. You?
You could always get a low angle jack plane, and then add a high angle blade at a later date to use for smooting.
I made the mistake of buying a footprint #4 at the Sears sale about two years ago and never could get a nice shaving from it (even after hours of lapping and playing around with the thing) so now I just use it like a scrub plane for cleaning off the rough sawn lumber. I then bought a Lee valley bevel up jack with a extra high angle blade and could not be happier with the performance of this tool, and it is very easy for a novice/hobbie woodworker to set up and use, and you could then add other sizes of plane's as you can afford them.
Hope this was helpfull to you, best of luck....gskin.....
I don't have $200 wrapped up in my plane collection. I have had very good luck at auctions pawn shops, and rummage sales. Most of what I have are good users once they were tuned up. You don't have to break the bank to have serviceable tools. I like my 5C Keen Kutter as much or more than my 605C bedrock. ($4 and $15 respectively) I traded a Simmonds that had a stamped steel frog even up for a Millers Falls smoother. I picked up a 60 1/2 stanley for $15 at a farm auction, $30 for a 7C stanley that works great. A 10 1/2 carraige maker's plane for about $15. I know that a lot of it seems to be "being in the right place at the right time", but if even I could be this lucky then anyone can.
Hello RD, I would buy a good used plane.You should be able to assemble a set of these three planes for well under $100.00.Check out these antique shops, Irvington antique mall on East Washington, and the Westfeild antique mall on State Road 32.Take a little time to set these up and more time learning to use them. Also research the Studley tool chest, this site offers a picture of it. Its does not contain any Bedrock design planes. Just regular old Stanleys.I think alot of fine work can be done with relatively inexpensive tools.I am a tight wad,who has a very nice set of tools.If you have questions about set up or use just ask me.
Good luck and good hunting.
Thanks for the advice. I will definitely check out the Irvington antique mall as I actually live in Irvington. I am sure I will be full of questions for you as soon as I get my planes. I have read the Charlesworth book and it is quite good, however, I am a visual learner too and may be taking the advice of another post thread in here and checking out his (or another) video series as well.
RD
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