Maybe it’s just me getting older, but does it bother anyone else that the definition of a dado seems to have drifted to include any kind of groove?
With more and more forms of media discussing woodworking (lots of Magazines, TV and Internet) there are folks tossing the term around and effectively changing the definition through common usage (misusage.)
To my understanding, a GROOVE runs with the grain of the wood and a DADO runs across the grain. They both have a bottom and a left and right side. If the cut runs at the end or edge of a board – thus having a bottom and just one side – it is called a RABBET.
I suppose one thing that has confused the definition is the use of manmade materials – ain’t no grain in melamine. Another confusing element is that one can use a dado blade to cut either a groove a dado or a rabbet.
Maybe it’s just that dado sounds more technical than groove? Maybe producers and editors like it better for content. I heard Tom Silva on This Old House once call a groove a dado. I’m sure he knows the difference.
OK then… that’s off my chest!
Replies
It's true, terminology has suffered.
Dado, a three sided slot which runs against the grain.
Stopped dado, also called a gain.
Groove or Plow is a three sided slot that runs with the grain.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
That's why in my shop I keep independent sets:
a stacked dado set,
a stacked rabbet set,
and a stacked stop dado set (I wrote "gain" on the side of that one). <g>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dado
How the Italian word for plinth became a groove in wood, I can't figure out. But language changes. Varnish used to mean any clear finish. Lacquer was made from the sap of the lac tree. Enamel was/is a vitrified covering for metal. A soffit was the underside of a stone arch. One went to a real estate agent to buy a house which one then made into a home.
ne sutor ultra crepidam: Disputantum Semirotten Woodworking
Edited 3/31/2008 10:30 pm ET by Disputantum
Then there's corbel, which cropped up the other day. It was by definition a loadbearing bracket, and therefore set into a wall or column rather than merely applied. Now it's used loosely for any bracket at the top of a column.
Not only definitions change. Niche, like most architectural terms, came from the Italian and was pronounced "nitch." Now every half-baked TV announcer who knows two words of French pronounces it "neesh." Yech, pronounced the way you spell it.
Jim
And the original dado - a room with upper and lower halves divided by decor. The divide being the dado (wainscoting). Also referencing the total distance between upper and lower, in which case the term is referencing the wall of the feature rather than the feature itself.I like the Brits version. A trench. You can plow a trench across the furrows of a field or along it's length but it's still a trench. A field with a trench on it's end is a rebate.Filled with water it's a stream.When she asks from afar it sounds silly to yell back, "I'm dadoing" but when I yell back that "I'm trenching"...ah, then it seems to her I'm working!John
"I like the Brits version. A trench. You can plow a trench across the furrows of a field or along it's length but it's still a trench. A field with a trench on it's end is a rebate."
Or how about our other (Brit) term, a housing or through housing (as opposed to a stopped housing)?
If you think the drifting of "dado" is bad, there's a whole generation of untrained and ill-read woodworkers here in the UK who insist on using US terminology which can cause all sorts of problems when they are dealing with a trained tradesman/craftsman.....
And the tool used to cut a dado is either a dado blade or a dado plane. The tool used to plough, plow or groove is a dado blade or a dado plane or a plow plane.
"maybe I'm just getting older". I know I'm just getting older but I notice the same thing happening and not just concerning dodos. I blame it on the fact that some of our present craftsmen have not had any formal training in the field. When you learn from 'Old Jake' , his skill level may be top notch but his book learnin may be lacking. Nothing against learning from 'Old Jake' but anyone writing for the public consumption should research his terms.
We may not want to be too judgmental of "Old Jake" or these journalists in general. The term "dado" is one that has been drifting for some time. The term we learned to describe a cross-grain groove is actually more contemporary than original. See Boilerbay's post in this thread and this from John Whelan:
The name "dado" has had a checkered history. In classical architecture, it referred to the middle, flat section of the pedestal of a column. When it became popular to use a protective, ornamental paneling on the lower parts of interior walls, the name was borrowed to describe this. In one form of wall treatment, the lower edge of the panel frame was inset into a groove in the floorboards. This groove was given the same name. The name "dado" was generalized to mean any related groove. And when a plane was developed to cut them, it, too, assumed the name. (Whelan, John W., Making Traditional Wooden Planes, 1996, p.72).
Since wall treatment could have covered all four walls, it may be safe to say that at one time the term referred to the grooves running with the grain as well a those running cross-grain. The specialized plane to cut cross-grain may have caused the term "dado" to become more specialized as well.
Regards,
-Chuck
All,
I cut a drifting dado one time. I forgot to lock down the rip fence on the tablesaw.
Ray
I would never be judgemental of the Old Jakes of any skilled group. I have learned much from them over the years. However, how far back do we have to go to establish a definitioin? Check out your college textbooks as far back as 1950 and I think that you will find that they define a dado as running across the grain. I think the terms themselves are of less importance than the communication itself. I mean by this that what is important is passing information from one to another and not the words used. To this end it is important that we are consistant with our terms.
I'm with you! I also have a pet example of the "drifting definition". That is the tailstock center, in the past always called the "dead center". Now with wood- turners switching over to the machinist's ball-bearing center, that still inert center has taken over the proud title of "live-center" from the head-stock. I, as a Dr., have passively moved many corpses, but that didn't make them in any way alive!
Tom
The term "live center," referring to a center that turns along with the workpiece (via ball bearings or whatever), has been in use for as long as I've been around lathes, some thirty years or so. A center that imparts rotational force to the workpiece is sometimes called a "drive center," but that terminology doesn't seem to be universal.
-Steve
I got into turning about 46 years ago. By 30 years ago the ball-bearing center had become quite popular.
Tom
and effectively changing the definition through common usage ..
I hear ya' but that is what the English language is!
.. definition through common usage ..
I guess why the French (others?) have passed laws forbidding it!
I for one always thought a Groove was a Dado!
frankfive, and all:
Remember that you can add to the new FineWoodworking dictionary, which we hope will soon become the most comprehensive set of woodworking definitions anywhere. Not only can you offer a definition for a term that isn't yet on the list, you can also add to an existing definition. It's a place to set the world straight on the meaning of dado, for example. For information about the dictionary, click here:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30626
David Heim
Managing Editor
FineWoodworking.com
David, I've found an existing definition that's much less accurate than it ought to be. I can't think of an accurate one line definition to replace this:
"HARDWOOD - The wood of deciduous trees, which are those that lose their leaves in autumn."
My concise definition I'm afraid looks as follows, but it's the best I can do in a short statement to cover most cases. Slainte.
Hardwood- the wood of deciduous trees. Not all hardwood trees produce hard wood, eg, the hardwood balsa is a soft wood from the Ochroma spp, eg, O. pyramidale. Specifically, deciduous trees, the 'broad leafs', or hardwoods are all angiospermae where angiospermae means "covered" or "protected seeds". One or two angiospermae are exceptions to the protected seed rule, eg, species within the Alnus genus, such as common alder, A. glutinosa and A. rubra. In temperate and colder climates trees become dormant in autumn and remain dormant throughout winter, and most deciduous trees lose their leaves during these seaons; there are exceptions such as the hollies, Ilex spp, and the evergreen holm oak, Quercus ilex, that is native to the northern Mediterranean coast. In equatorial rainforest climates deciduous trees shed and replace their leaves all year and there is no dormant season. In the montane tropics and monsoon forests deciduous trees-- hardwoods-- lose their leaves during the dry season.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 4/4/2008 6:49 pm by SgianDubh
Also, there're deciduous conifers that would still be "softwoods," bald cypress being a prime example.ne sutor ultra crepidam: Disputantum Semirotten Woodworking
Taxonomically bald cypress, Taxodium distichum, is a conifer, but like angiosperms it produces protected seeds that in this case are released from a cone. It does, as you say, have deciduous branchlets and it produces a soft timber much valued for its durability, eg, for windows, greenhouse construction, etc.
Incidentally, that's a tree species I'd really like a high quality photograph of the knee roots to illustrate a text I'm working on. If anybody lives down Florida, Mississippi or Louisiana way, and is able to get a first rate photo or two I'd really appreciate it. No money in it I'm afraid; just a grateful acknowledgement at the beginning of the manuscript. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 4/5/2008 11:22 am by SgianDubh
I did research on insects affecting baldcypress (Taxodium distichium) for over 25 years and have never read or heard that it was an angiosperm. From a standard plant database reference:
Kingdom Plantae – Plants <!----><!----><!---->
Subkingdom Tracheobionta – Vascular plants <!----><!---->
Superdivision Spermatophyta – Seed plants <!----><!---->
Division Coniferophyta – Conifers <!----><!---->
Class Pinopsida <!----><!---->
Order Pinales <!----><!---->
Family Cupressaceae – <!----><!----><!---->Cypress<!----><!----> family <!----><!---->
Genus Taxodium Rich. – bald cypress P <!----><!---->
Species Taxodium distichum (L.) Rich. – bald cypress P
To my knowledge baldcypress has always been classified as a conifer due to the fact that it bears cones. It is most closely related to the redwoods. Seeing that baldcypress is among my favorite trees and is the state tree of Louisiana, my home, I felt I must set the record straight.
Jerry, luckily there's someone out there that picked up on my errors in phraseology. You're correct, and it is a conifer. I've edited my post to say what I should have said in the first place. Thanks. Sometimes I'm guilty of sloppy proofreading, especially in forums. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
This do ya? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cypress_knee_6016.JPG If not, maybe contact the person.ne sutor ultra crepidam: Disputantum Semirotten Woodworking
A photo like that would be ideal, but in truth I'd prefer to use a photograph taken by someone I can easily locate and put a name to. That image will work if I can trace the 'Pollinator' that uploaded it, and he can confirm it's his image to grant permission for me to use in the way I want to.
If I knew I'd be visiting Texas, where I have connections, in the next few months or weeks, I'd probably zip over to Louisina myself and get a snap or two.
Wikipedia I find is an interesting resource. I do use Wikipedia for research, but seldom quote it or cite it as a reference or resource. If I'm able to confirm the information in Wikipedia is supported by writings by named authors I generally prefer to cite the latter. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Later edit. On a side note, this 'wiki' format that seems to be proposed for the Taunton dictionary of woodworking terms is one I have some reservations about. I've looked at many of the existing entries and there are quite a number of less than accurate definitions, wooly definitions and errors. If such errors become 'common' or 'accepted' truths then the usefulness of the whole dictionary as a repository of wisdom becomes severely diminished.
So whilst the aims are laudable I just wonder who, with strong enough qualifications, training and experience in a relevant woodworking subject, will be appointed to edit the dictionary to ensure validity and accuracy And that leads on to who's got deep enough pockets to properly pay for the necessary multiple checking of submissions and to undertake the editorial work?
I highlighted just one less than useful definition, ie, the less than complete definition of 'hardwood', but there were several more I could have picked on.
Here's another, "AIR-DRIED LUMBER - Lumber that is cut and dried without the use of a powered kiln. Typically stacked and stored outside in a covered area, the wood dries and reaches a moisture content close to or equal to the relative humidity."
An obvious misinterpretation of this description is that if average atmospheric RH is 60% for a period of time the wood will eventually reach 60%MC. Who's going to ensure the existing definition is edited, rephrased or otherwise reworked to properly describe air dried wood?
Perhaps the best thing would be to entirely remove the mention of relative humidity and its unhelpfully described relationship to wood moisture content. After all, if the relationship isn't discussed accurately, and in enough depth, its usefulness as a reference is less use than no description at all.
As things stand now I'm unlikely to point furniture students and other woodworkers to this dictionary for definitions and descriptions of woodworking terms.
Edited 4/6/2008 5:52 pm by SgianDubh
Richard, you old fogey!
Get with it! This is the computer age, where close enough is, well, close enough. We who want instant gratification cannot be bothered with accuracy as well. There's no time for that! No matter if the information is less than complete, or even correct, next minute, we are downloading pirated copies of our favorite band, then off to the site where pics of the latest pop star's wardrobe malfunction are to be gawped over.
Things such as annotations, credits, or credible corroboration are a thing of the past, now all we need are facebook friends, and a page to preen ourselves, on google.
Ray
Darn Ray. I forgot the Facebook factor. I'd better sign up on that, along with Bebo. Perhaps near enough is good enough nowadays as you say, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
For whatever my small voice is worth, I would ask that you keep on citing sources and whys and wherefores. It sets you apart from the bloviating morons, gives us a clue as to where your point of view comes from and gives us a point of reference should we disagree.
There appears to be no shortage of self important unthinking experts, your propensity towards self effacing factual dissertation along with your willingness to admit error makes your point of view a valuable resource. I may not always agree with you, however you are often proven right, and your sense of humour makes learning an enjoyable experience.I am often moved by your posts to respond not at all, which should not be confused with disagreement or displeasure. On the contrary the posts I'm most inclined to respond to deserve nothing but vitriol and contempt.I salute you sir for your ability to make a living in a difficult field, your willingness to share your knowledge with others and your unwillingness to suffer fools and your ability to put them in their place while remaining civil.Edited for spelling."There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
Edited 4/7/2008 1:26 am by rsaunders
"On the contrary the posts I'm most inclined to respond to deserve nothing but vitriol and contempt."
It looks like I'd better start posting things that raise your ire and generally p*ss you off if I want an exchange with you, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Many posters find that to be the usual state of affairs with me....Someone once said a walk through the ocean of most souls will scarcely get your feet wet.I find I rarely have anything worth contributing to the posts you contribute to although I often take away some useful knowledge from them.I do learn a a lot by keeping my mouth shut. The surest way to get a response from me is to ask a question I can answer with certainty or to spout BS. As you don't spout BS and are unlikely to ask a question within my area of expertise, and as I have a penchant for figuring out problems on my own, it seems unlikely we will correspond. I would consider you to be a worthy and valuable foil and fount of knowledge, however the chance of our getting together in mutual benefit seems unlikely as we pursue different interests.My post was meant to express my admiration for the results of your endeavours and the method you choose to accomplish them.Don't go buy a bigger hat, the one you wear fits you well....Appreciating your knowledge and your humility...."There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
Incidentally, I took a real shine to the word bloviate you used. I'd never seen it before, but felt I knew what it meant just by the sound of it. There's a name for words that sound like what they mean: I can't recall it now.
It was interesting doing a little searching for a definition, but I found a few online.
Now I just need an excuse to use it in some assignments I'm working on that discuss educational theory. Educational theorists and their acolytes, the lesser writers on the topic, are very guilty of 'bloviating' where the motto surely is, 'Never use one word when ten will do'.
Certainly it's my conclusion having studied educational theory for a couple of years that much of it is tendentious windbaggery. I'd normally offer up a referenced quotation or two of some educationalists' twaddle to support my case, but there isn't the space here for a short 3000+ word (sic) example, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Larch is in that group too.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Hi Richard,I've always used a picture of the cross-section of timber to show that a softwood is produced from a coniferous tree and has all cells the same diameter, while a hardwood is produced from any other species and has differing cell diameter. I can't remember the names of the various cells, are the water-carrying tubes called 'tracheids?'I'd define softwood first and then a hardwood as being anything else.Cheers,eddie
Correct Eddie. Liquid conduction up and down gymnospermae, the conifers, is primarily via spring produced light coloured, elongated, thin walled tracheids, after the living protoplasm leaves the cell. Water passes by osmosis from the end of one cell to the next. The tree lays down thicker walled dark tracheids better suited to the task of structural support later in the year. They do conduct liquids, but they do it poorly compared to the spring growth of tracheids.
Angiospermae are different with specialised tubular vascular tissue to conduct liquids. The root tip is connected to the leaf directly with a continuous hollow tube. In the trunk it's rather like a bundle of drinking straws encircling it. Some trees lay down distinctive sap conducting spring growth and similarly distinctive structural late growth, eg, the ring porous hardwoods such as the European, American white and American red oaks. Other tree species, for example the equatorial rainforest trees, frequently show little division into seasonal cell types, as the seasons are pretty much constant.
There's also the role of transpirational pull and root pressure in conducting liquids up a tree. Tear like drops ringing a leaf, particularly just after dawn is a good indication of root pressure alone moving water up the trunk of a flowering plant, bush or tree. There is no photosynthetic activity at night, so transpirational pull isn't a factor. All that's left is root pressure to force the liquid up the tree.
Incidentally, there is enough transpirational pull in large trees to lift a water column as much as one hundred metres above the ground. That's a hell of a lot of pull, but it's only possible because the the diameter of the tubes it's acting on is so small. Larger tubes like drinking straws and plumbers tubing suffer from cavitation once a column of water reaches a certain height, ie, the column collapses. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 4/5/2008 3:54 am by SgianDubh
D.H., what is the chance that these fine woodworking terms will find their way into the spellcheck dixschionary to avoid the humerous and annoying lack of depth that currently exists. tx. Paddy
Good question, but I don't have a good answer. First we have to build the dictionary, then we'll work on spelling. Adding a spell check feature to our search function (did you mean dovetail?) might be a tall order.
D, not the search function just get all the wood working words in the spell check function.Paddy
unisaw = Tunisia
filister = fluster
I think you're right, Frank.
Except a rebate runs along the edge of a piece of wood and a housing runs across the grain. A trench also runs across the grain and a groove runs with it. I'm not sure of a dado as it's a US-specific term being propagated worldwide by TV shows and products made in China.
Trade terminology is definite.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 4/5/2008 2:52 am by eddiefromAustralia
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