Chris Gochnour’s Bench Chisel Evaluation
Foolishpilot
| Posted in General Discussion on
I recently bought the Narex bench chisel set and was somewhat disappointed. I was willing to go with his recommendation based on his evaluation of the Grizzly Japanese Chisels. Actually, I had bought them several months ago and felt I had found a “diamond in the rough”. I think Chis’s “out of the box” evaluation was very generous because the set I got was laced with machine marks. (Perhaps the quality control went down in an effort to meet the demand after the article.) I spent about two hours lapping and honing the bevel on just one of the chisels.
Given the time and materials I think the $50 Lie-Nielsen single is worth a full set of the Narex’s. I guess you really “get what you pay for.”
Replies
You, as I, are in need if a good bench grinder. But, even without one, I don't expect manufacurers to ship me a polished edge. The way I see it, manufacturing is their job, sharpenning is, and will always be, my job. If the first sharpenning takes longer, sounds like better equipement or technique is desirable. But I guess I can agree with you if the machine marks were very bad, I mean, you've got to compare it to other chisels at a similar price point, after all. Your time is your time. And a rough back is more serious than a rough bevel . . . but you mentioned the bevel, right? My tendancy is to think of a chsel a something that will be reground and sharpenned frequently for generations, so the original machine marks will soon be a distant memory. I once sent back a mortise chisel that did not have bad machine marks but that was cut out as a paralellogram in cross-section, rather than at right angles (if you can imagin the mortise chisel being much more square than the relatively flat bench chisel). Now that is something that would have taken some serious engineering to correct . . . I think that in your situation I would have gone to the belt sander to start and the whole process not have taken more than a half an hour. Please tell me if I have misunderstood. I just hate to think of anyone feeling helpless when faced with a basic sharpenning task.
Brian
Brian,Woodworking tools rarely show up ready to use. Woodworkers should not have to put up with that. There are a lot things that need to be done in the shop that are "below" what we should be doing. These tasks should be passed off to others. But to whom?I have an idea.
For decades, couples with children who wanted help with their children brought in Swedish girls, (au pairs). My guess is that those young women would rather help out in a woodworking shop than to take care of kids.So I am thinking of starting a business of bringing in young Swedish women to help out in woodworking shops. What do you think?
Is there money to be made here?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I think you are on to something here. An article in FWW about this would certainly boost magazine sales.
Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Pondfish,
I hope the Editors are reading this thread. I believe we are onto something. And it would help the economy of Sweden as well. I am an altruistic guy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Forget the article - go for an entire issue.
An annual. Done in the tropics."FWW Illustrated Swedish Edition"
The magazine where things get edgy!
My life expectancy would be very much shortened ! I can smell the smoking gun now ! Maybe I could just dream about it ?Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I'm not convinced you agree with me, but I agree with you! At least when I close my eyes tonight.Brian.
I will agree and disagree. I agree you will find machine marks on a $6 chisel as opposed to a $50 chisel. It should be obvious why!
But... you shouldn't have had to spend 2 hours lapping and honing a bevel. I received a set of 6 Narex from Highland yesterday morning that I am giving to my young nephew who has become interested in WW. Last night I took them to a 1" belt sander as mentioned and took the machine marks off all 6 (front bevel and 1" from tip up on the back).. then took them all to scary sharp for the final touchs.
The whole set took around 2 1/2 hours from box to... ready to be put back in the box for his use as a gift. Once that time was invested I believe they will last him a lifetime as I will show him how to sharpen them as he dulls them.
I used a few of the chisels two weeks ago at Highland and knew what I was getting before I ordered them on Thursday. They are not bad chisels for $6 each or $47 for the set. I don't expect a ready to use chisel out of the box for that price as I am a realist. And I don't mind spending 2 1/2 hours to bridge the gap between $6 and $50 each.
If you don't feel you got a bargain.. please e-mail me and I will buy your set from you if you pay the shipping as I can pick up a set personally in about 30 minutes if I chose to. Then you can get the LN's or whatever you feel is a better deal for you.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 8/9/2008 10:35 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,Add the cost of a 1" belt sander to the cost of a $47 set of chisels and you might as well buy the expensive chisels!Just kidding of course. I suspect the original poster could benefit from higher grits... Having gone through the same issue as the OP when I was more of a novice I can understand his frustration.Buster
It just took a few swipes with each one, Buster. Then I went to 80 grit and up on scary sharp. Not long enough to over-heat really as the machine marks weren't that deep. Nothing compared to an Anant Kamal 7 I did several months ago which you can't use a 1" belt sander on.
The Anant took around 6 hours to but some of that time was other than the large sole on a #7. But once I did it.. the results are as good as any IMO. I sold a LV 6 that left a gap and I replaced with the Anant. I have an Anant # 4 that took little work. I sold my LV 4 1/2 that left the gap on that acquisition.
So.... if you don't want to change your own dead battery in your car.. pay someone else to do it. If you don't want to sharpen.. pay someone to sharpen for you. If you don't want to build furniture.. pay IKEA or a higher end source to deliver some to your door.
Life is simple really unless you over-analyze and create complications. :>)
Sarge..
Sarge,
"Life is simple really unless you over-analyze and create complications. :>)"YOU HAVE JUST PUT KNOTS OUT OF BUSINESS.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think one of the things we're touching on here is that modern western folks love in a world where manufactured stuff is all made by machine and all has a standardized (or normalized) level of quality. SO the OP thinks a chisels is a chisel and they all work to some extent and arrive ready to work within some narrow performance band. How does he understand the vast difference in price? I'm not sure he does. I think he's thinking one company is fleecing us or amortizing the cost over a range of tools perhaps and that really these are all comparable products. And Chris' review sort of echoes and reinforces that belief.In the 18th c, or even in your parents day, there was a great variation in quality in the market place. Your Mother probably walked through the market area and chose the best of the day's produce for her family. To do that, she used skills she learned as a child, and assuming she was Italian, she probably used her hands and nose and keen eyesight. The skill is discernment. And I don't find it common. Folks are having trouble choosing a tool, or a car, or a spouse because they don't seem able to discern the difference between good and bad. They're not stupid. The problem is that cars are made so well, that every car is pretty good, has it's devotees, and the choice because subjective.So Sarge is right. This really is a "you get what you pay for" situation. Where the complication comes in is the unwillingness of us (maybe the OP, I don't know) to accept that. All those chisels are made of very similar steel right? They are all made on machines, right? Are LN's machines really that much better than Narex's? Is a Mercedes really better than a VW? That's the problem I see here.Adam
Adam,
Good to hear from you. As you know, I enjoy putting my views out there, but I rarely get involved in "discussions". That is just one of my strange ways. Like chisels, people are different. That is what makes Knots fun. Not our similarities, but our differences. We use the same words to discuss things, but underlying those words are different values, attitudes and cultures. The similarity of our words, together with the difference in our values makes for "tempests in teapots". Some people enjoy this. It just ain't my style. I have gotten to "know" a lot of the denizens of Knotsworld, but I don't know the OP, so I don't have much to go on in judging his background or his motivations. Here is my "set of values" on chisels, which I believe may be quite different from your values. I am not a "tools person". I am quite out of step with most of the folks on Knots. I believe I share views in this area with Boss Crunk, who said it well. He said: if I visit the home of woodworker, I want to spend time in his living room, not in his shop. To me, that is the essence of a great woodworker. He likes to focus on furniture, not on tools. If you read the posts of another of my favorites, Ray Pine, I see some similarities. Ray does not collect tools. He only has the ones he needs. Ray uses a cheap Gents saw for cutting dovetails. The boss has some inexpensive chisels. I have seen similar views from the Sarge. Please do not take me as comparing myself with these highly accomplished people. I dont share their skills, but I do share some of their attitudes and values. For me, chisels are just a way of removing some wood in certain cases (eg where a chain saw is irrelevant :-) As long as the chisels cut in a way that satisfies my, and as long as they feel good in my hands, they are fine. I don't mind if I have to hone them a little more often. I am just a hobbyist, so time isn't money. Taking a break from woodwork to spend 90 seconds honing is not a problem to me.BUT GETTING BACK TO ATTITUDES AND VALUES. I was brought up Blue Collar. I can't see paying for anything I can get free. To me, almost everything that Lie Nielsen makes is "free" - in the "life cycle cost" sense of the word. In other words, you can buy their chisels or a #4 plane or just about any of their other tools, use them for five years and sell them on Ebay for what you paid for them. Since I work at Woodcraft, I can buy them at about half of retail, I can double my money on every Lie Nielsen tool that I buy. I haven't sold any yet, and don't plan to.) So to me, Lie Nielsen chisels, which feel good in my hands, cut nicely, and hold an edge pretty well, and cost half of what I can sell them for, ARE A GREAT DEAL. I would feel like this even if I paid full retail for them. To me, Lee Valley planes are of good quality, but they don't have the added benefit of selling for almost full retail cost on EBay. As all too often, I have gone on far too long, but like you, I am probably more of a writer than a woodworker :-). My response to you is really not about chisels at all. It applies to all tools. It is about how differences in underlying values cause arguments about tools. I told the Boss recently, that if he came to my house and saw my furniture, and said "Nice work, Mel", I would be proud, but if he visited my shop and said, "Hey Mel, GREAT TOOLS, I'd think he was nuts." My bandsaw is a cheap Rikon. My jointer and drill press are antique Craftsmans. My table saw is a Delta contractor saw. I do have a nice set of Pfeil Swiss Made carving gouges, and some nice LN planes, but the reason is: those are the only two brands of tools that sell on EBay regularly for near full retail cost, and they both perform very well for me. If you ever find any other brand of tools that are of reasonably good quality and that I can sell for what I bought them for, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO GO, in my humble opinion. But my opinions are based on my blue collar values.
I enjoyed answering your message. I sincerely hope that there is something in my message that is of value to you. If there is anything in my message that upsets you, I apologize. I have sometimes heard you say that you don't understand why someone else believes something, and you don't like embedded advertisements. The following is not an advertisement because I own no shares of either company. It is a personal statement of values:In the current environment, I can't understand why anyone would buy carving gouges that are not by Pfeil, or chisels or planes that are not by Lie Nielsen (except if they don't have the money to lay out initially), because they are not only of very good quality (I rarely use the term "best") but they are free in the sense of life cycle cost. I read that you are going to start making chisels to sell. In this current environment of "free" LN's, I just can't understand this, but I wish you luck.Have fun. Thanks for writing. I sincerely hope that this message does not cause you to decide never to write again. I believe it is good to cause others to think, but I do not believe it is good to go around getting others "spun up."Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You would probably put many WW forums out of business as I see it. Recently on another channel... someone had purchased one of the digital read-out do-hickies. He started a thread to say that on his TS he was getting .004 variance over a 36" length of stock and was asking how to correct this ghastly margin?
There were 7 replies on fine tuning suggestions before I posted the fact you couldn't force a Nat's rear end under a .004 gap even if you turbo charged it with C-4 plastic explosive and ask the OP why he was concerned with .004 to begin with. I thought that would end the conversation and should have.
But... the OP had a Woodrat that he claims requires absolute precision which opens up another can of worms, IMO So.. the thread goes another 50 + post with views that it did matter by a few and didn't by the majority. In the end sanity prevailed with the thought in mind that a glue up will compress wood more than .004.. movement after the rip will likely be more than .004... and simply that .004 is not much more (.002) than a machinist would consider optimum tolerance which I stated in the 8th post.
If I had an LN chisel I would go down and pare and chop a joint with it. I would also pare and chop one with an Ashley Isles & Marples. I have those on hand. Then post the pictures without revealing which did which and ask all to match. Frankly.. I highly doubt anyone would be able to match the pare and chop to the correct chisel. If they did it would be a nothing more than a lucky guess IMO.
Just my view of the world as you have pointed out how we all see things in different light and have different values mainly based on how many times we have been around the block.. and which blocks we went around. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 8/10/2008 11:49 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
You make a lot of sense. What are you doing here? :-)I love the "Wixie crew" - those who like to measure down to .0001. One can have a lot of fun with them. I'll take out a plane with a slightly rounded blade (a smoother), and get out the Wixie digital caliper and show them how they can measure the difference between the center and edges of the shaving. THEY LOVE IT. I believe I have a lot of people now showing that to other people. Soon it will make it around the world. Of course, it is sad that they take it seriously. I was just having fun. In my shop, I rarely put a digital caliper to my plane shavings. Sometimes talking to a person about the difference between precision and accuracy is not useful. It is even more interesting to talk about precision, accuracy, and the value of increases in either. Of course this is the same thing you you were talking about with regard to the Gnat's rear end.I AM AMAZED at how many woodworkers focus on these IRRELEVANCIES. They have allowed their mind to get away from the goal - nice furniture. I have been having this conversation with Derek. He thinks I am a "reverse snob" because I don't believe there is any need to spend a lot of money on a tool if a little money will do. I have given up. I am going to go back to doing humor.Did you hear about the woodworker who fell into an upholstery machine? Don't worry about him. He's re-covered. Yuk Yuk.Have fun. The alternatives are not worth it.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
Don't you just love these conversations? I liken them to the pickup truck competitions the fellas around here seem to never tire of. You know the ones where they argue endlessly over who makes the best truck, Ford vs Chevy or Dodge. Then they trick them all out and argue even more loudly! Funny part is most of them would never haul a load of lumber in em for fear of getting a scratch in the paint. I on the other hand have an old Dodge Power Wagon that has more scratches than paint but hauls lumber like it did the day it was made back in 1969!
Maybe it's just my girly way but you know I've got a bunch of chisels I bought from a guy at an antique fair years ago and they aren't as pretty as some and I did spent a few hours getting them up to snuff but since then they've worked beautifully and made me a bunch of money! I've got a couple LN planes and some I made. I like em all and none are the way they were when I got them. You know and I know we all mess with them to make em just right in the end, so I whole heartedly agree with your position that this whole thread is going around in big useless circles! It ain't the tools guys it's what you do with them that matters. Unless of course you put them in the bed of your tricked out pickup truck and meet up with the guys for another argument!
Everybody, go enjoy your chisels, cheap, expensive, new and old. Go make something and let's see what your chisels can help you make!
Have a great week Mel and I like your blue collar approach to free tools!
Madison
Holy Smoke, keep on like that and we can expect a marriage between you and the Woodworking Taliban- what are you trying to do-end the, er, discussion?
Not good, not good.(;)
Philip Marcou
Philip:
Sweetheart I love a good "conversation" as much as the next girl but we just gotta go somewhere when we're doing it. The way I see it the folks who measure success by the size of their tool collection have been dancing around with those who see their tools as a means to an end and the relationship just won't work out.
I'll be the first to admit that the fine tools are seductive and a gas to use but I've got to be real and if my collection of hand selected "old" chisels will do the same job as the drop dead gorgeous LN as much as I hate to have to admit it I've got to go the "old" route as I've got to make a living and my clients could care less if I have the prettiest shop in the state, they only want one thing, the prettiest piece of furniture!
So I toss a few sticks in the conversation now and then just to stir you guys up a little. Now excuse me I've got to go slap them fancy hubcaps on my old power wagon and meet the boys at the park, we're going to argue about hemi's vs non-hemi's!
XOXO
Madison
The way I see it the folks who measure success by the size of their tool collection have been dancing around with those who see their tools as a means to an end and the relationship just won't work out.
Hi Madison
Exactly! And most eloquently put.
There are just too many different starting points of those here, with the result that we end up discussing matters at cross purposes.
For example, I like building stuff. I am a hobbiest and I expect that my approach and involvement will be different from a professional woodworker who does this for a crust. The artistic expression in WW is my therapy. The choice of what tools I will use take on a different significance, and one that most professionals do not get. I do not believe that the best tools will make me a better WW, but better tools certainly give me more pleasure.
I imagine that the pro asks, "will this tool make me more productive?" " Is the tool cost-effective?", "Time is money. Is there a learning curve? ", "Will the tool do something that will create greater income or provide improved working conditions?
I imagine the hobbiest asks questions such as, "will it increase my pleasure?", "Will it enable me to do a better job?", "Can I afford it or will my wife/husband kill me?". Some also ask "is it really necessary to do the job (because I want to develop my skills with other tools).
I also do not believe that the above stereotypes are that rigid, however they serve to illustrate the kind of cross purpose discussion that inevitably occurs when topics such as this are aired.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi derek,
I am curious to know about the Grizzly chisel(s) that Mr. Gochnour called a diamond in the ruff. They appear to be a Japanese style and he had good things to say about them in the picture text.
Could it be that there's more than meets the eye with these? Seems like they are quite inexpensive. Also there's a fair amount of prep to be done but would be a one time thang, so to me aint no big deal.
The curious curmudgeon,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 8/12/2008 7:50 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
'bout a year or so ago, while at the Grizzly Muncy location, I purchased one of those Grizzly Japanese chisels. Was a narrow one--can't remember since I gave it away--maybe 3/16" width. Anyhow, even factoring prep time at minimum wage, with the initial cost of the chisel, you would be better off buying a better chisel.
Issues I had were very poor & rough finish on sides, the flat side, in spite of the hollow, showed convexity and it would not keep it's edge cleaning out half blind dovetails(Penna. cherry and white oak). More out of curiousity than need (reason why I bought the thing in the first place) I worked through the chisel issues, and with the help of some electrons, ground the bevel back close to 1/4" to a place where edge retention improved.
At this point the chisel was a decent worker and some would say at the initial price of around $12 to $14 a good buy. I disagree, because when you place a value on doing those things you shouldn't have to do on a chisel, the price approaches the price of a LN. Plus this thing was ugly and so I gave it away. All tools require some degree of prep work to make usable for your personal methods--including paint can opening, where you may want to blunt the edge some!
Tony Z.
Derek:
I can add nothing but Amen! You have summed this whole situation up very clearly. It is fun though to read the conversations back and forth though.
For my part it would be very easy to become a tool junky were it not for the fact that I have to measure productivity and profitability. So I've spent the money where I need it and not always were I want!
Enjoy!
Madison
MADISON,
I HAVE PRINTED OUT YOUR MESSAGE AND PUT IT UP ON THE WALL IN MY SHOP.
That is the highest praise I could give anyone.
I like your style.
But I understand we are swimming upstream in Knots.
Oh well, my parents prepared me well to swim upstream. Do you remember that Johnny Cash song, "A boy names Sue". Well, I grew up in an Italian neighborhood with a name that is more Jewish than Italian. "Melvin David". Of course, I was often called Mogen David. No problem, I would tell folks that I was half Italian and half Jewish, and ask them if they wanted to come over for matzoh balls and spaghetti. Yuk Yuk.I have always admired people who think for themselves. You are all right in my book. (Don't tell my wife) :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi there. I know I probably shouldn't jump in after you were nice enough to hang her comments on the wall, but i think this has to be said. Do you really think her thoughts were that original? Oh yeah we are all probably guilty of the Chevy vs Ford thing but the reality is that we do that because we are the type of people who are capable of and willing to take a stance on something and go from there. I'd say I big part of our problem as a society today is everyone's unwillingness to do just that for fear of hurting X or stepping on the toes of Y.ChrisP.S. - Sorry for the brief but vocal interlude. I just love it when the referee's try and step in and put an argument to an end. 'Come on guys, does it really matter in the end?"
Chris,
I was just "sweet talkin'" a pretty girl.
It works all the time.
Mel
PS don't tell her I said that or she'll hit me upside the head with one of her Stanley #8s :-) Let's let this be our little secret.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Your analysis of the three types of tools, price ranges and the characteristics of the individuals that advocate for them is correct. There is another aspect of this issue that's related to you post - the historic cost of tools.
There are some on this and other forums that consider a L-N bench plane to be a needlessly extravagant, absurdly expensive tool, and say so. Chris Schwarz has alluded to receiving e-mails form like-minded individuals castigating him for writing up "boutique" tool makers and their products such as Wenzlof's saws, Jeske's marking knives, and just about any Bridge City product. Their argument has shades of moralism - it is somehow immodest and unacceptable to pay anything more than the absolute cheapest price available for any tool.
What is often forgotten in these arguments is that the asking prices for Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley (and others, but you get the idea) tools compare very favorably to the asking price of workaday Stanley tools made before WWII. In fact, the L-N bench planes are actually cheaper than the equivalent Stanley BedRocks when compared in terms of inflation-adjusted real dollars.
What has happened to generate the attitude that L-N and L-V planes are somehow expensive luxuries is the existence of tools made with extraordinarily inexpensive labor, very low-cost materials, and in some cases, poor quality control and sloppy workmanship. It is highly unlikely that the pre-WWII management at Stanley would have tolerated the out-of-the-box quality characteristics of a Groz, Anant, or even a modern Stanley plane, and neither would their customers.
The fact that ultra-low cost and ultra low quality manufactured goods are eagerly snapped up by a large segment of the consuming public is, in my opinion, the numero uno tradgedy of our times. It has resulted in the near extinction of manufacturing in the United States, and we are all poorer as a result.
Well said! I particularly agree with the comments about cheap goods and manufacturing in america. It doesn't help that the american worker demands $25 an hour to stand on a assembly line and screw on nuts all day long.Chris
All,
Whew, 65 posts about whether a good chisel is really as good as, or maybe better than, a better chisel. Throw in planes, t-bevels, marking guages and marking knives for good measure.
Mel often mentions my $10 dovetail saw. But I have paid as much as 30 bucks for a firmer chisel from woodcraft, and that was 30 yrs ago. It's maker didn't think enough of it to mark it with his name, so I can't even brag about him. It's a pretty good tool, as good as, or better, than the US Navy surplus Winsted that I paid $5 for. So, did I pay 600% too much for the one, or... There is even (don't look, Boss..)an Ioroi or two that my dad gave me years ago. They came with a set of goofy directions that insructed me to take a hammer to the bevel--or was it the back? No matter, I just sharpen them like all the others.
I went through a phase a few years back, when I bought old tools with rosewood handles, and brass trim. I have a couple T- bevels, a try-square or two, and a marking guage. But, for some reason, they are not all my "favorites" that I usually reach for to get 'er done.
A buddy bought a set of high quality carving tools from Mittermeier years back, that came not only unhandled, but un polished (black surface, right from the forge) and, shudder, un sharpened. What was that about? What a concept! That the end user conform something as personal as a carving tool to his or her needs and wishes!
My dad, the ultimate blue collar worker, used to say,"I'm poor. I can't afford to buy a cheap tool." That didn't mean he went for the one with all the fancy gew-gaws, but that one that needed a bunch of fiddling-with to keep working, was a waste of time.Back in the day when the names meant something, he bought Stanley, Bluegrass, Greenlee, Black and Decker, Mac, Snap-on. Tools that you bought once, took care of, and never had to buy another. And I'm still using some of them. Mel, that's the freest kind of free, when you inherit a good tool, and it lasts a second lifetime of use.
I have a terrific marking knife. It has three blades, different shapes, and sizes, for different jobs. High carbon steel. With it, I mark dovetails, scribe around inlays, trim pegs for pinning joints, chip glue, strip insulation off wires, clean my fingernails, and scrape the occasional wad of gum or doggy-do off my shoesole. It has plastic handles, but it is brass-bound. Shrade made it. It's an "Old Timer" pocket knife. No-one in his right mind (except maybe Tom Sawyer) would take it in trade for anything (except maybe a dead cat, an aggie marble, or a snake skin). I'm not sure what that says about its value.
Not to say that I don't appreciate pretty in a tool. I've made a few; mallet, dovetail square, inlay cutters, a couple planes, and handled numerous chisels, where I selected the materials for pretty as well as strong. It doesn't cost any more to pick out a contrasting wood for a wedge, or use a scrap of brass for a wear plate, to make something easier on the eyes. Okay, call me a hypocrite.
Ray
I might add that I once knew a guy who used a Swiss Army knife ($5.99) as a marking knife. Worked well and had spoon.. fork.. cork screw.. scissors.. etc. to boot. Gave you the option of opening a can of "beanie-weenies" in the shop without having to travel to the kitchen to hear the infamous words, "Get out of my kitchen".
But.... that same guy has now gone high-tech as most do and progressed to an Exacta knife. Rumor has it that just within the last day he will un-wrap the duct tape from the handle that en-larges it for a better grasp and will replace that with a corn-cob. Well.. if the squirrels don't run off with the corn before it dries! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge.. who is Recon trained and on squirrel watch
What's wrong with a C-ration "key"? Ok on tenon layout but hard to use on dovetails. $.01 each and disposable.regardsBB
I'm not paying someone $.01 for a "C" ration key that has not been proven in advance. I prefer the one I had around my neck on a piece of leather string for a year and still have. It's been field tested and I know it works. Another problem is that there aren't many repair shops for P-31 "C" ration keys even though I have never personally seen one that needed repair yet. Simplicity in it's finest hour.
That's enough said about them as we don't need to get into another "over-analyzed" or comparison to the benefits of buying a boutique can opener. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Have a good day, Doc...
Sarge..
"he will un-wrap the duct tape from the handle that en-larges it for a better grasp and will replace that with a corn-cob."
A used corn cob?Philip Marcou
"A used corn cob"?.. Philip
Of course not Philip.. the one's you refer to should be boiled.. dried and then remove kernels before use as that softens them before introduction to the indoor toilet. One's for file (and now marking knife handles) should be acquired fresh and put in the sun to dry well before what we in the south call shucking them. That gives a much firmer cob.
So.. fresh from the stalk.. then dry. My squirrels keep up with proper drying time as they won't take them until the kernels are ready to pop off. All I have to do is walk around in the trees surrounding my home and shop and pick them up before a rain.
And of course I acquire a few extra in case any neighboring squirrels from next door or up the road stage a raiding party outside their own territory. With the economy as it is... a squirrel has to do what a squirrel has to do to eat these days!
I will be working at the Steel City Toolworks booth tomorrow through next week-end at the International WW Show here in Atlanta. I may introduce my new "boutique" handles there as I am sure they would be a big hit with grass-roots U.S.'ers especially from Iowa which is our Corn State.
So.. if you would be interested in distributor-ship rights in New Zealand.. just send a PM or "tele" me and we can possibly negotiate a suitable arrangement. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Wish you hadn't mentioned the corn cobs now I bet... :>)
Have a good day my friend...
Sarge..
Sarge,
I've been told what to do with a corncob before, but never followed up on it because it would have been too painful. I had high hopes for your method, but it wouldn't work round here. We've got a plague of fat raccoons that eat squirrels for breakfast before they tuck into the corn. There's a wussy city ordinance that forbids even trapping them and moving them to some other neighborhood for someone else to enjoy. I guess I'll just have to spend the big bucks on a real handle.
Jim
I have a male and female raccoons who occasionally show up if they get hungry. The male is the largest raccoon I have seen on 5 continents. I just let them wander as they would not come around the shop if not desperate for food as they really are frightened by people.
You don't want to corner one, especially as large as he as they will rip you open with those claws if they feel they are threatened and in eminent danger.
They are quite beautiful but can also carry rabies unfortunately..
Sarge..
Copied that. (Just checking to see we were using the same range tables).Philip Marcou
Sarge,
AND once ya got that .004 gone ye still have to cut the thang! And then make sure the wood don't move after ya git it put together.
I must be gettin too old for all this..............
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yep.. life is such a struggle when you convince yourself absolute precision is required to achieve a satisfactory end result. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
I fully believe a tool should be ready to use out of the box. I've never been impressed with the idea of "finishing" making a tool.
My kitchen knife is ready to cut from the box, my drill bits are ready to cut from the pack. Why not chisel, or plane iron?
Common problems with sharpening are over heating the steel and losing the hardness and temple, only take a moment of grinding to heat the edge too much, angles being off, not to mention the frustration of time spent trying to produce the perfect edge!
Want my money? Finish making the tool!
Consumers dictate the level of readiness of most (if not all) products by what they purchase.
If people purchase $5-$6 dollar chisels, manufacturers will make them and sell them for $5-$6 each. Just what exactly is the problem with that? Who exactly is to blame?
Personally, the history of tool making has nearly always left it to the end consumer to fiddle with a tool. That's not to say they weren't usable off the shelf. Even a $5 chisel is. The degree of readiness to meet a particular consumer's expectation may not be compatible with such a price, though. But that is an unrealistic expectation.
Want better tools? Spend more money. Want cheap tools? Buy what is available for as little as possible. It really is that simple.
Take care, Mike
Hi Mike I have no problem spending "extra" but I think the tool should be ready to use when you get it. I hear about time people spend "finishing" a plane with flattening the sole and squaring the sides. Even the cheapest tool should be ready to use. So we cut price by stopping the manufacturing process early! Good one!
Two tools the same on the shelf. #1 ready to cut and use @ $30, #2 required finishing and sharpening and 15% less than #1. Which would you pick and for this assume its a chisel of good materials.
Edited 8/9/2008 1:46 pm ET by USAnigel
Edited 8/9/2008 1:46 pm ET by USAnigel
15%..I might go for the more expensive tool. But the difference between $6 and $50 is 88%. At that rate I'd buy the cheaper one an think I got a bargain.
I'm not talking yugo vs roller. I'm talking same tool maker, save one is sharp and flat and ready, the other you get to flatten and sharpen.
Then I'll save the 15% and put the edge I want on it. Seems like a no brainer to me....Different strokes for different folks I guess.
it might just be the new math, but the difference is $44.00 . . . . . so about 733%?
a $6 chisel, so 200% of that would be $12; 300% would be $18; 24 would be 400%; 30 would be 500 . . . . 36=600;42=700; 44= 733%
so, 88% would be a bargain, eh?
42920.27 in reply to 42920.11
Sorry, we are looking at it in different directions. I was talking about the savings...If I buy a $50 chisel for $6 it is a savings of 88%. A savings of 100% would be free would it not?
You are talking about the cost. If you buy a $6 Chisel for $50 it costs 733% more.
Its the same math...its just that I got a bargain and you got ripped off. :)
Shane
Edited 8/10/2008 10:05 am ET by Shane_M
If you buy a $6 Chisel for $50 it costs 733% more.
Techinically, a $6 chisel sold for $50 is an 88% markup. I have no idea how ya got 733% using any kind of math <g>...
Take care, Mike
If you buy a $6 Chisel for $50 it costs 733% more.
Techinically, a $6 chisel sold for $50 is an 88% markup. I have no idea how ya got 733% using any kind of math <g>...
OK, I'll referee :-)
The 'more' is $44 ($50-$6=$44)
The 'more' (44) is 733% of the number (6) of which it is more.
($44/$6=7.33333)
Frank
Well, again technically, the 733% is what the discount pertentage if a $50 chisel was bought for $6.
Mike
"Buy what you can afford. Make it work." It sure sounds like good advice to me. Some people can afford lots of money, but not much time, while others can afford lots of time, but not much money. So we've got both ends of the argument covered.Knowledge is the key, in terms of making things work. If most tools are bought by people who don't know how to use them, market forces provide perverse incentives to toolmakers to cut costs at the expense of function. Once buyers learn what it takes to "make it work", the market functions better.
WOW! Its amazing how we all can argue about immutable facts...$6 chisel bought for $49.98 = %733 mark-up$49.98 chisel bought for $6 = %88 mark-downHope we all can move on from here! Not singling you out here, yours was just the neutral one.Chris
Edited 8/10/2008 8:09 pm ET by hdgis1
I think you need to look in some economic books to see what exactly the formulas are. You are using them incorrectly.
Not to worry. I understand your point, the essence of your argument.
Take care, Mike
Who needs formulas to make an argument!? In the end, it all boils down to faith doesn't it? I spent 7 years getting a masters degree only to find out that real life is much different than the 'books'. I'm glad you got the point though.Chris
If you buy a $6 Chisel for $50 it costs 733% more.Techinically, a $6 chisel sold for $50 is an 88% markup. I have no idea how ya got 733% using any kind of math <g>...I'm reminded of the old quote "Lotteries are popular with foks who had trouble with math in school." :<))Regards,Ron
Ron,
Wow, I came up with 833% markup.
And I've never won the lottery either.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
bob, ya gots to deduct the initial $6, ie the initial 100%. you sure you want to get into this pissing contest???
interesting enough, this tangent started with a question if one would buy pay $4.50 to have a chisel sharpened such that it was "ready to go" out of the box; the scenario was with two chisels "of good materials" on the shelf, the sharp one for $30 and the unsharpened not-ready-to-go 15% less, ie $25.50.
i am not sure where the quantum leap came from, but the new math was then equating 2 apparently dissimiliar chisels, one for $6 and one for $50. IIRC, this came up in response to a post that was the context of, and dealt more with, consumer expectations. so, would you pay more for an apple or an orange . . . . because i think that is the point to which we got. . . . okay, so if the apple was cored and sliced, but the orange was intact . . . . .. .
Yeah I spose you're right.
If I multiply $6 x 8.33333333333 (833%) I get 49.9999999998 or there abouts, give or take a few 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000!
Now if I can find a chisel for $14 (Narex) that works as good as a $50 Lie Neilsen then I saved 833%! Right!?
Then if I retire and spend 14 hours @ 15¢/hr., or $2.10 then that will cut into the savings but I still make out!
Uh, oh watch out; I think Mels coming!
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Now if I can find a chisel for $14 (Narex) that works as good as a $50 Lie Neilsen then I saved 833%! Right!?"
bob, NO, NO, NO . . . . you still have the narex to work with , but you have done nothing to satisfy your lust for LN! . . . . and then there is that life-cycle aspect to be considered . . . . . (don't be bagging on my buddy Mel, he's aces in my book).
so, ultimately, when you sell your $14 narex for $6, your new LN $50 chisel will have cost you a total of $58 (50 plus the 8 lost on the interim choice). Now, had you taken that $8 and invested wisely, assuming a reasonable rate of return, and utilizing a discount brokerage, and assuming you lived forever . . . . . . .
oh heck, buy 'em all and be done with it, and get your butt back into the shop!
Patrick,
OK, then I'll go back to my old standby. Only issue with this is it's hard to get a decent micro-bevel on his teeth!
View Image
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Keep that portrait handy- I have a suitable candidate in mind for it to be assigned to. Meanwhile I suggest you grind at 25 degrees and hone at 5(five) degrees more than standard to get 35 degrees.Philip Marcou
Bob,
"Uh, oh watch out; I think Mels coming!"You are absolutely correct.
I have perused this thread, and I am extremely worried. For a while it has looked just like the Long Thread over in the Hand Tools folder. We don't need two threads which accomplish absolutely nothing. One thread does it just fine. I found another thread in which sykesville asked "So what is the question?" Can you believe that? He is looking for a topic. This thread proves conclusively that we don't need no stinkin' topics. We can prattle on endlessly and aimlessly and shrouded in bliss without a topic. Topics are so limiting. You know, I am coming up with an interesting research topic which could revolutionize woodworking. I have long been a "blue collar woodworker" who watches his pennies, and I have known that I am running against the grain of Knotsworld. That got me thinking. How can all of those people be wrong, and only a few of us be right?So I have asked FWW to do a long term survey of woodworkers. I want them to collect annual data on how much each woodworker spends on tools. Then I want to know the total number of days that a woodworker lives before he dies. Then I want to correlate the amount spent on tools with life span. If it turns out that buying expensive tools makes you content, and being content makes you live longer, then we all need to start spending big money on tools to insure a longer life. I am willing to turn around on this and jump from the Blue Collar Woodworkers Club to the Society of Yuppie Woodworkers if the research shows that leads to a longer life. Have fun.
Mel
PS you estimated your time to be worth $15/hr after retirement. I asked my wife about that. She said, "No. Lower. Much lower. Now go mow the lawn, paint the garage, wash the car, and go to the grocery store."Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Oh this is a ghastly turn of events.
It must have been a typo. These dang puters have a mind of their own - I meant 15¢/hour! But at that I get to mow tha lawn on the riding lawn groomer!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Out in Idaho, the ropers call them "groomers" goats!
Never heard of ridin' one though . The ropers git 15¢/hour to drink from a bota bag and watch em.BB
Your math is screwed up.
bc, isn't he just quoting mike wenzloff??
Edited 8/12/2008 1:49 pm by stpatrick
Boss,I don't do math! The first two lines in my email were quotes from a previous post. Didn't mean to confuse you!Regards,Ron
Sorry about the confusion.
I don't think that the manufacturing process is cut-off early on say a Stanley sliding bevel square for $8 at one of the Borgs.
But it certainly isn't the level of craftsmanship that say is available from the likes of Chris Vesper (http://www.vespertools.com.au/slidingbevels/index.htm)
It is that the Stanley is made with regard to a given price point and is finished appropriately for that price/profit structure.
On the other hand, I would say Chris' are made without regards to the cost of making them and he needs to sell them for what he does in order to make his profit structure. I can guarantee you will not have to fettle any of his tools.
The same applies to cheap chisels, planes or anything else. Take Anant for instance. If they were to make a decent plane, say a #7, that the end buyer does not need to fettle either the body, blade, frog, adjustment et al, would they be able to sell it for the $80 retail price? Of course not.
Compare that to a LV or LN plane. Any I have purchased from either company is a plane ready to use. Oh, I need to hone the blade. Big deal. This level of manufacture costs.
Point is, both models (Anant and LV/LN) have a manufacturing processes consummate with the end product they produce. But both models are finished appropriately for their manufacturing processes.
The sad thing is, I would be willing to wager a hefty sum that Anant makes far more money per annum than LN does. Why? Because people are willing to purchase the damn things from Anant and then either become frustrated and gripe in their ignorance, or they gripe on internet forums. Not pointing my finger at you. But this happens nearly daily.
The Grizzly chisels are made to a price point. They are manufactured complete and fully--to that price point. Same with other chisels. So my advice is that if one approaches tool-buying with the concept of perfection or nearly so, be willing to part with serious green. There is middle ground. And it means more money thrown at the tools compared to the cheapest available, but that also means there will be a certain amount of work required by the purchaser.
Else don't sweat it. Buy what one can afford. Make it work. Most vintage planes, chisels etc are at a level of quality that most consumers today would pen horrible epitaphs over if they were new. A Stanley plane made in 1880 that the sole is flat and both sides square to the sole? I don't think so. Wooden planes that are the level of Clark & Williams? Nope, never seen one.
Today's consumer expects far more than ever in history for far less cost than those who have lived before. And yet, think of all the fine furniture made with those inferior tools. Guess they didn't know how bad they had it.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
You recommend: "Buy what one can afford. Make it work".
This is good advice, assuming the buyer knows what it is he or she is getting for what money they can afford; and understand the balance between "ready for work but expensive" and "needs your fettling time/expertise but is cheap".
As you may know, there is no such thing as honest advertising from the mass producers of goods and their legions of sales persons. The remit of these large manufacturers/sellers is to push the goods and to do so they will happily bamboozle the customers with "spin" in their descriptions of the goods - a certain economy with the truth.
In this instance, how many of those cheap tools needing the 2.5 hours fettling by a Sarge (5 hours or more by ordinary mortals) have "Ready to Use!" firmly emblazoned on the box? Many, many. Those tools are not as described. So, the problem is not the various qualities in manufacturing or finishing of tools but the way in which they are sold to unknowledgeable consumers.
The vast majority of modern goods are sold as ready to use and are ready to use. You don't have to fill and seal the fridge with coolant. You don't have to cut the tread on to the tires for your car. Many manufacturers of cheap tools seem to have no idea of the modern and more or less universal concept "finished product".
Here is a blast agin the monstrous regimen of cheap and and nasty tool makers by an established furniture maker and tool user, a blast that states the issue most vigorous-like:
http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/woodworking_tools.htm
Lataxe, skeptical tool advert peruser.
Hey Lataxe--how ya doing?
I have always liked David (Savage) and his page on tools. Just the tone of it, not all the content. Good in so far as it goes but I think it needs a tad updated.
One problem for someone new to woodworking is that they do not know what they do not know. In that case, I still think the person ought to just get what they can afford and get on with it. There are things about tools one cannot learn without experience.
When I closed the shop and sold off the large power equipment, I still had need of certain power equipment I could use in my small 11' square shed to make commissions. Because I had bought a Rigid table-top saw for remodeling our present house years before, I decided to use it for my only table saw. Now, it wasn't the General from the shop days. But you know what? I still managed to turn out some furniture in the same amount of time as with the much nicer saw. The former was a $2500 saw, the latter a $300 saw.
Edumacation of tools will come if there is a desire. Later. And there will be some dud purchases. Even with time and understanding when they go to "upgrade" some woodworking widget to a "higher" quality one, they won't get a consensus on Knots or any other forum, publication or working professional. That aside from reading adverts or listening to sales-weasels.
Heck, I have bought what I considered expensive chisels before only to find them not flat, didn't hold an edge for a terribly long time even with raising the bevel angle. While in the grander scheme of things I "should not have had to fix" the manufacturer's faults, I still pre-ground them flattish (and actually made them really bevel-edged), heat treated and tempered them, and then finished flattening them. Ended up a good set of chisels. Used them for several years until a year or so ago when I cleaned them up, sharpened them and gifted someone getting started in woodworking and needed chisels--who had gotten bewildered by all the voices on a forum as to which ones to purchase.
I suppose in a perfect world, every tool we could possibly need would come, well, perfect. And for a "reasonable" cost. It's not presently, nor will ever be (and never has been), a reality.
I think this issue is one thing woodworking shows and schools are good for. In lieu of an apprentice system, they allow one to get hands-on experience with concrete brands. It isn't abstract chatter on forums, slick and misleading advertising in print or on a TV show.
Why the rambling? Probably because I am really tired. Still, I think for many the main problem isn't buying a poor tool, a tool that needs a bit of tlc before it is a better tool. It is paralysis from analysis.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Working too hard agin, eh? I must come over there one day and teach you to be a lazy lad, a skill I am well-qualified to demonstrate. I suspect you will have a hard time learning that skill, though but. You are a victim of the protestant work ethic, a terrible invention of Mr Calvin, later refined by the Victorian mill owners for fun and profit (theirs, not the workers). :-)
But I digress.
Reading between your lines a bit, perhaps you're suggesting that we might learn more from using poor tools (and fettling or working around them) than we might learn from only ever employing near-perfect tools that make life easy. That's a good point, born out by many people's experience - assuming those people had the persistence to overcome the problem tool to the point of fettling it or working around it's foibles. Many folk do not have such persistence. I am one of them.
Incidentally, if this route to knowledge and skill is a true one, shurely you ought to be making cheapo-nasty saws as well as them good uns, to cater for folk that like to make tools good themselves, especially if they are 1/4 the cost of the proper ones? Somehow one feels that this is not in your current business plan. :-)
***
There are many people who have reached the highest level of ability or skill in some pursuit who always had the benefit of nothing but extremely good equipment. In some of these cases it may have even been the good equipment that was a catalyst to their rapid and successful development. Perhaps they were encouraged to be exceptional in the use of the tool or equipment because that was the tool's inherent nature?
In truth, both of these - "overcoming a tool's lack" & "living up to the tool's high ability" - are legitimate and actual routes to learning a skill. Being a lazy boy, as I mentioned, I prefer the latter. Of course, I have yet to reach a true level of competance in WW (or anything) myself, by either route. I'm still travelling.
Lataxe
Hi Master Lataxe,
No, I would never suggest or recommend one purposefully purchase a poor tool whatever the price--and they come in inexpensive and expensive versions alike.
Rather, the trite phrase of buying the best one can afford. The rub and what I am taking from the thread as a whole is how does one know what the best is at any price?
My reality has been one does not always pick the "best" tool at whatever price level one is comfortable with spending. My personal choice in those cases has been to suck it up, make it work and keep moving forward. I have made some seriously stupid tool purchases. In other cases, purchases that I place in "I should have picked differently" category. However, those tools have typically turned out just fine with a bit of work. Some of those had been "highly" recommended tools.
I know I am not phrasing myself well. We all have different levels of ability in purchasing tools. So I guess I'll leave it at always buying the best one can afford. With that choice, though, one may have a little work to do on the purchase.**********************
Ah, I believe hard workin' folk predate the Victorian era. They (the Vics of wealth) were just the ones to begin systematically exploiting the natural drive of people, changing it into something else. Something to loathe (for a variety of reasons). And hand in hand with the regulation of job function, it was the beginning of mass advertising, of creating desires for things beyond one's means. This meant the worker bees had to press on despite the limitations of the work for those things.
Well, too much pseudo-Socialistic thought for this tired brain. 91 hours this past seven days. So I'll tell you what. If we ever really make it over there or you and the Ladywife here, I'll let you work on how I can inject in a bit of frivolity into my life.
Take care, Mike
PS, spell check desired to change your username to lactase and 'ladywife' to laddie...made me chuckle.
From Highland Hardware's catalog:
Boxed 6-Piece Bench Chisel Set..
These Czech-made bevel edged chisels are a fine value. Beech handles have well seated heavy steel ferrules to withstand vigorous mallet work; bolstered tangs are also ferruled for durability. The blades are fine grained, nicely tempered chrome-moly steel (Rc-58) that takes & holds a beautiful edge without brittleness. Like most chisels they'll need sharpening before use.
****
I don't really see any attempt to leave out information by the seller in this case. Highland will also tell you you will have to fettle an Anant plane to get it up to snuff. The price of the Narex is between $4.99 to $6.99 for the wider. If one puts two and two together after reading the description and comparing the price to the very high dollars.. I personally cannot see how they would ever be under the illusion that they were going to get a "ready to roll" high quality chisel out of the box. And the quality is not all that bad if you believe the review that was done and make a comparison.
So being deceived by mis-leading information is one thing... being wrong about the possibility that a $6 chisel is bench ready is another IMO. for anyone that would fall into the latter group.. beware of Nigerian chisel ads or e-mails telling you that it's your lucky day! :>)
Regards and have a good day, sir Lataxe...
Sarge..
Edited 8/9/2008 7:42 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Good morning to you my boy!
We are perhaps lucky in the woodworking world as it seems to be one of the last specialist markets where items are sold honestly, as you describe. I also take Adam C's point that tools sold in a condition that merely requires them to be configured (sharpened in this case) to the standard requird by the user is also honest.
I'm not familiar with all the retailers and items sold in the North American WW market so perhaps there is more honesty there (not least because the customers insist upon it) than there is here in Britain, where many manufacturers and sellers seem to believe they have the right to sell us any old muck without any carping from their victims about the drossy nature of the products.
Just this morning I had occasion to walk the aisles of a large DIY retailer (looking for a kitchen thingy). It is full of "tools" of the lowest possible quality, way over-priced and dripping with various exclamations along the lines of "ready to use". I know from experience that many of these items are not just unready to use but cannot be made usuable despite endless fettling attempts. They are ticky-tacky of the worst kind. Naive folk buy them because the store is conveniently to hand and pretends that it sells real tools.
For some reason the British don't like to complain. Moreover, the so-called Trading Standards departments of local government rarely seem to emerge from their little office to berate the sellers of such dross. And so they go on committing their retail immoralities.
***
Of course, I would still include Anant planes in the category "dross" - but I haven't experienced their latest wares. There is also my disinclination to spend hours making something work, not to mention the buying of replacement blades and such. I'm a simple bloke. Things sold for a purpose should be capable of meeting that purpose as-is.
On the other hand, I much prefer the bread the ladywife makes with flour, seeds, yeast etc. than the spongey stuff sold ready to eat by the soopermarket. What a contrary little consumer I am. :-)
Lataxe
I read the Davi Savage site. Is he kin to Michael Savage. They seem to have the same temperament. May it run in the family name. He started out a ball buster but ended pretty passively, IMHO. Building furniture for 50+ years, he probably didn't have time to learn simple economic rules. This is going to really sould harsh but if a person earns lets say under $70K a year, he needs to spend time learning how to earn a beter living and not worrying about the price of quality handmade tools for wealthy retirees or for profesional furniture makers. I don't expect a $6 chisel to work out of the box like a $100 chisel. Anyone who does should consider this:
Let's say that Worker #1 is making $100 an hour for each hour worked. Worker #2 is pulling down maybe $12/hour. Based on the productivity rate, Worker #1 can't afford to buy a $6 chisel because at his pay rate, it could cost up to $200 (of his time, and time is money) to prepare the chisel for cutting. That would make the chisel worth $206. Worker #2 on the other hand has plenty of time, so his spending time honing a $6 chisel into something more than a $6 chisel is a natural.
I have to go run an errand but will be back to finish this line of thought...
Mr O,
I see your argument but feel it is slightly sophist. The $200 man might not regard his chisel-fixing time from an economic viewpoint at all. He is merely making a tool better in his spare time, spare time he can afford to have.
However, the $12 man will need to work as many hours as he can, given his lower earnig capacity. Even 1/2 an hour making a tool work is wasted time to him.
Finally, you are assuming that the need to grind or otherwise finish-off a tool is the only difference betwen cheaper and more expensive tools. But there are often other qualities in the more expensive tool (the reason for its higher price) that no amount of fettling can introduce into the cheaper tool. Will an Anant plane ever be as good as a Lie Nielsen? Perhaps, if one spends the hours, replaces the blade and other parts, avoids difficult grain, etc..
****
In the final analysis we do buy things only partly for their degree of utility and ability. Sometimes we also buy because we like the glamour of a thing. As long as we understand exactly what we are getting for the cash, in terms of all the tool attributes, maintenance needs, abilities, resale value, etc, then we can make a reasoned decision.
Some examples
Personally I like the $10 Zona saw as it works very well "out the box" for some uses. I also prefer a Mike Wenzloff DT saw for handcut DTs as it works perfectly, doesn't need me to learn to sharpen it and looks beautiful into the bargain.
I will not buy an Anant until it is at least as good "out of the box" and in long-term use as is, say, a Lie Nielsen; and the Anant will have to sell at only a fraction of the Lie Nielsen cost. In practice I buy both Marcou and Veritas planes - the former for their absolute performance and quality (and probably resale value in the longer term) and the latter because they perform as well as Lie-Nielsen but cost less for similar plane functions/abilities.
I have Blue Spruce, Marples blue-handle and Two Cherrises chisels. They all have their virtues and vices, price being just one of the considerations. They get used for different tasks - sprucers pare precision joints, cherries are wapped for mortising or other chopping, Marples are used for rough or heavy cuts where damage may occur. You can't swap these functions and expect the chisels to do so well (or even survive) in their new role.
Lataxe, who believes that sometimes better tools DO make a better workman, if those tools have improved or additional abilities.
Well dang, I'm pretty much agreeing with you here. I'll admit knowing what I know now, I wouldn't waste $20 on a bench TS. I would not allow one to take up space in my shop. I'm sure they have a place in the world of wood, just not my world. No amount of fiddling will get yuo there. But I could put one out on my driveway with a $50 sales sign, and a handyman crew would drive up and buy it within the hour.
I appreciate a well made quality tool, but I don't appreciate someone trying to make me believe I will reach the next level in WWing if I just buy these tools. Not saying at all that you did that. I'm just saying. I can buy some electronic gizmo for $400 and it will either break or be obsolete in 6 months. I can buy a LN or Veritas plane and it will last a lifetime, and give me years of pleasure. Being an idealist, I respect someone who can take minimal tools and create beauty. I prefer to take the expensive tool route, but have less respect for my abilities and my work. I've learned to live with that. Is a CNC programmer a WWer? For some the end product is the reward. For others it's all about the journey. I'm still finding my acceptable compromise. Enjoyed your post. Thanks.
Lataxe, who believes that sometimes better tools DO make a better workman, if those tools have improved or additional abilities.
Funny, I read Woman instead of Workman...... LOL
AZMO
By the way did you see Julie Longo is still racing at 49! <!----><!----><!---->
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AZMO,
Who is Julie Longo?
Is that Forestgirl's real name?
I didn't know that Forestgirl is 49.
I thought she was younger.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Julie Longo is a french gal, raced the road race at the olypics this year. A heck of a course with tons of climbing. She came in 24th! She has won before but decades ago. Just when you think about being old, someone comes along and proves you should be thinking young! <!----><!----><!---->
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AZMO,
Thanks for the quick reply. I guessed it was something like that. I was just kidding, as you guessed. My second son, Patrick, races bicycles as a hobby. I just switched from a mountain bike, which I mostly rode on the street and paved paths to a Trek 7.5 FX. I LOVE IT. I can ride much longer and it is much more enjoyable. My wife got a 7.3 because the step-thru model didn't come in a 7.5. I couldn't talk her our of the step through model. We go for lots of rides, but they are all that long. Keep on pedaling.
Mel
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Nothing like a good bike ride! I got out just after your post for some hill training with my group. Nice 25 miles, 5 hills that are short and fast. 18.5 average pace. I am back and cooling off now. Gotta think young and chase the 30 yr olds up the hill!
Kudos to your wife for riding. Mine started on a flat bar roadie from Specilized. She now has Ruby, which is Carbon womans version of a Race machine. A little more lax in the geometry, but designed around shorter reach levers, shorter stem, steeper angle on the seat tube, shorter cranks etc. We are off to Napa for 3 days of riding with some frenz. Total blast, ride like heck then go taste wine!! How can you go wrong with that.
later Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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Morgan,
If you get to the area near Washington, DC, let me know. We have four bikes. We can go on a ride for a while before you and your wife leave us in the dust. WHen you return, we'll have a cook out, and tell woodworking lies. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
My older son and girl just moved to the the DC area a month ago. We will definately be out that way, and ridin and lyin is always fun! <!----><!----><!---->
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Am looking forward to riding and lying. Send a message to me via email before you come, and I'll send you my address, phone number and directions. When you come over, bring your two youn uns over too.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Before I say what I have to say - I may be missing the dollar conversion thing here or prices on the website may be in US dollars, but I couldn't tell. If prices are in US Dollars, then here's what I have to say:GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!! $197 for a 4" sliding bevel! I don't care if God himself made that thing I wouldn't buy it. I'm all for the idea of buying a finished tool that is priced to do what it does and I won't hesitate to buy a Lie Nielsen bench plane or LV block plane, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Perhaps the gentleman who makes these ought to market them as art and not functional tools. Just a thought...Chris
Nah, Chris' prices are in Australian dollars and include their VAT.
Currently according to XE, $100 AU = ~$89 US dollars. Which makes the price around $158 for the 4". This is about 2 times the cost of the Bridge City 4" and 4 times more than a LV 4" model.
Your illustration of buying a LN plane is rather pertinent. There are those who feel the LN, LV et al planes are only for rich people. There are those who will pay 5 times (and more) what a LN #4 1/2 costs to get a top infill smoother.
What a tool is worth to any given individual is their own line in the sand. Vesper's tools are obviously beyond that line for you. They are the equivilent of top infill makers' wares, just different tools. Personally I am glad Vesper is charging what they are worth in time and materials. And I hope he can sustain enough sales to make a living.
I think people by and large fail to understand what it costs to make a widget. I have no idea what you do for a living. Look closely at the level of quality that 4" sliding bevel is built to. Imagine what it would take for you make it--time, tools, materials, building lease, insurance, taxes et al--and divide all that into $158. Does it come to more or less than you make per hour? How many would you have to sell per month to make your current bills?
Take care, Mike
This is actually for both of you who responded to me. Im not suggesting that a tool not be sold for what its worth. Perhaps his tools are worth that much for materials and labor, etc but are they really that much more capable than a PEC bevel gauge? (Just in case your not familiar with the company, I own a few of their tools and each one is within a .001 tolerance. Bevel gauge is perfectly machined and locks dead tight. Got it at woodcraft for $20) I'm suggesting that there is a point at which buying a tool for its functionality becomes something more. Perhaps the indulgence you suggest?quote = "What a tool is worth to any given individual is their own line in the sand."I'm rather sure that there are three classes of tools and a corresponding group of people that go with them. Though I think the classes of people are often blurred so I'll avoid defining these too clearly.1. Low-end which require major work to get them to some standard of use. (Groz, Narex, etc)
- whether blue collar or white the people who buy these are either cheap (in the sense of hard currency out of the pocket, not life costs and all that mumbo jumbo) or have the time to fix them. If you fall in this category, by all means knock yourself out. For me, my $50 an hour rate doesnt justify 6 hours to fix a $77 plane. Although I guess in a real sense whether I spend the time or money, Im still spending the same amount. Interesting...2. Mid-range which require little to no work. These are the LN and LV's of the world.
- this is the category I find myself in for a number of reasons. The most important is that I don't feel that spending more money on a tool gains me a corresponding increase in performance. If I spend 10 minutes polishing the blade on a LN 4 I'm sure it performs as well as a $1200 dollar Breese. I also feel that the quantity of individual tools produced in this range is high enough to keep costs down but low enough that the companies haven't sold out. 3. High end which require nothing but the pressure required to move them through the wood. Breese and the cat in question here.
- Is it worth it in terms of hard cash to pay $1200 for a plane or $160 for a bevel gauge that doesn't perform a corresponding percentage higher than the mid-range? For anyone other than a retiree with disposable income or someone who likes to brag about their tools? Shapton sells stones in the 30000 grit range. Can anyone seriously make the claim that the surface left behind from a blade polished with an 8000 grit stone is inferior to that of one planed with the blade polished to 30000?Quote - "I think people by and large fail to understand what it costs to make a widget." What about economy of scale and principles of production here? You know, buy 2 pay $X or buy 3 and pay $X - %10. If this guy makes 10 bevel gauges that require X amount of time and material, why not make X squared and divide your rent etc among all of those. Lower the cost to the end consumer (which is really who decides whether one stays in business, independent of quality unfortunately!) and still make your rent on time.OK. One last thing. I haven't checked my registration form recently but Thomas LN is doing a forum on modern tool tolerances and modern consumer expectations at the upcoming tool conference in Berea (at which I will finally get the chance to test out some of these tools of which we write). Should be an awfully interesting discussion!!!!Chris
Edited 8/10/2008 9:41 pm ET by hdgis1
How did those Shakers and Stickleys and Greenes and the rest of the ancients we try to copy their every cutmark make furniture in the first place. They didn't have access to LN or the rest of the sophisticated, 0.00001 tolerance equipment we have today. And while older equipment was made to last, such as old Dewalt RASs, they were still just tools, thrown in a tool box.
I fell into the trap of if I just had a little bit better piece of equipment, I know I could be a better WWer. Yeah Sure.
Real artisians and craftsman who learned their craft through years of practice and were fortunate enough to have trained with the masters could rub two sticks together and create more quality pieces than most of us with all the over the top expensive equipment that big brown to deliver to our doorstep.
I bought a home in California built in 1911. Beautiful place. I doubt those carpenters used $60 rulers and $200 saws, but somehow, someway thay made joints fit with a tolerance I can only achieve on a really good day with really expensive equipment. Their workmanship was impeccable. I don't think wood filler was invented until after 1911.
At best, most of us work on WWing projects a few hours a week, in our double car garages, if we are lucky. I want instant gratification. I want to built it, finish it, move it into the house, and get on with another project. Partly to justify $20,000 worth of hobby WWing equipment, and partly because I'm not getting any younger and all those project that need to be built.
I'm sure my Marple chisels would be snickered at by some, just as my $10 bottle of wine in the frig. I love the taste tests where the wine snobs can't tell a $10 bottle from a $100 bottle. I would guess that in a blind taste test, most WWers, even those on this forum could not tell the difference in a reasonable priced chisel versus a really expensive one, if both were honed properly.
We're just cutting wood. It's not like WWing was created with the advent of the LN plane, at least for some of us.
I love this stuff. Thankfully the world is full of it.
By the way, I watched a couple of "T-Chisel, who's better than me" and Mark Spaglinoliola videos and all I can say is, they are so full of themselves. But I got to admit, they are probably good for the hobby and good marketers. Build a dove tailed stepping stool. I'll get right on that.
You're on the right track. Stay the course.
Please don't lump me in the category of people who think better tools will make us better woodworkers. I learned long ago that isn't true. I simply believe that there is a certain point in the economy of things at which it doesn't make sense for me to buy tools that need fixin.Having said that though, if we're comparin' tools apples to apples here, it is the case that better tools will make us better woodworkers. By apples to apples, I mean straight outta the box. I also think that buying bad tools to become a better woodworker is a ridiculous notion. Just because I have never had to tune an Anant doesn't mean I don't know how a plane works.Chris
My apologies, no intent to lump. I probably abused your post to post my rant. I also agree that "buying bad tools to become a better woodworker is a ridiculous notion". Carrying that logic out, if I used a butterknife and crayons, I'd be one heck of a WWer. Probably to ridiculous to print. Buying an $6 tool that with some work can become a better tool is worthy for someone with more time than money.
Just because I've never turned up a Bentley doesn't mean I don't know how to drive one, nor do I need to drive a Bentley to get the job done. That's all I'm saying.
Some of us fall victim to marketers. Maybe not you. Maybe not me. But just look at the really expensive handtools, by anyones standard, and ask yourself, do I need that tool to be a better WWer or do I just want that tool because of any number of deep seated wants and desires. Just saying...
Sorry for another response. Forgot about the Shaker and Stickley stuff. I would suggest that both camps did what they could with what they had and the end result of that was as good as their technique and tools would allow. I think guys like Rodel and Lang make better craftsmen furniture that the stickleys did and that Moser has the shaker thing all wrapped up. Chris
Back at you <g>. I may idolize some of the old WWers stuff more than I should. We all need our heroes. Bottom line for me is that I want to be truely impressed. I'm not saying the crop of current craftsman are not adequate or even exceptional in some cases. But with the last 250 years of knowledge base to work from, all the info on the internet, the hundreds of WWing books, the plans and drawings, the availability of museums, the potential to buy the best steel ever made, the most precise tools ever made, to the point that additional precision will not net any additional accuracy, I just can't be so impressed that someone out there can reproduce a piece of furniture possible better than it was originally made. I'm not a hand tool purist. I'm a power tool junkie. In the end I'm just measuring, cutting and gluing wood, to the best of my ability. Craftsmanship is the ability to strive for excellence. I try my best. I push a stick in one end and pull it out the other. My talent is flipping a magnetic switch. And I'm darned good at it, thank you very much. I appreciate your response. I'll google moser.
Chris
Everything that Mike says is absolutely correct - or at least I concur with him 100%. There are some tools that just shear indulgence - but that does not make them worth less than they cost. It is not necessary to own, use or build with expensive tools to create good furniture, etc but, if this equates to high quality, then it makes the process all the more pleasurable.
It comes down to what you find pleasurable - working and doing so with quality tools, or just working.
Just as it happens I have just spent the past two days with Chris Vesper. What a nice young lad (well, in relation to my age). He works very hard and he makes a very fine product. I spent the past two days as well with Terry Gordon (HNT Gordon Planes) and Colen Clenton (arguably the best toolmaker specialising in gauges around at present). They all make high quality tools that are just wonderful to use.
I bought this 6" sliding bevel from Chris. I must tell you that alongside my Crown the quality is just rediculous! Solid, heavy, and easy to use. I use sliding bevels quite a bit and I am in awe of the differences.
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Incidentally, Colen fell in love with my marking knives (he wants to make them now). They are designed for dovetails and detail work. We made a swap. I got one of his large mitre squares (I already have one of his standard squares). I think that I got the better deal.
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One of my marking knives ..
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Do we need tools like these?
Of course we don't need anything like this. But wouldn't you rather have them?! :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 8/10/2008 8:39 am ET by derekcohen
Derek
"It comes down to what you find pleasurable - working and doing so with quality tools, or just working."That sentence just about describes the what takes me too long to say. But NOT QUITE. In it, you use the term "quality tools". To me that is a problem. Here is why. Once on Philip's website, I read a letter to Philip from a guy who owns a Marcou plane and a Holtey plane. The man was describing the difference between the two, as I remember. He said that when he removed a screw from the Holtey, the bottom of the screw had been fully polish so that no machine marks remained.When I read that, I nearly rolled over in laughter. Is this guy nutz?It this "quality"?It is possible that you use the term "quality" where I would use "fussy". Certainly this letter-writer goes far beyond the term "fussy". But then again for $8K, I guess the backs of the heads of the screws should be polished down to about 30,000 grit. I bought a Blue Spruce marking knife, and paid more for it that I think a marking knife should cost. It is very nice looking, it is "overly worked" in terms of workmanship. I bought it because the shape and length of its blade is what I was looking for. If they had a cheaper model with the same blade, I would have gone for it. Actually, I should just learn tool making and make my own tools. Of course, then I need more tools. If a woodworker just loves to have tools which look like they took three man years to design, make and polish, and they have the moolah to buy em', then all is well. But woodworking tools, IMHO, should be ready to put in a tool box and taken to a work site, and USED. But that is one of my underlying beliefs, not a hard and cold Fact that applies to all.I have seen a few woodworking shops that to me, look like operating rooms. VERY SPIT AND POLISH. Even the cabinets that hold the tools are designer items. There is nothing wrong with being fussy about being fussy. "whatever floats your boat" as they say. I just don't believe that quality and "fussy and overwroght" are necessarily identical. Just as Einstein believed that "An explanation should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.", I believe that tools should have as much quality as necessary, and no more." More "quality" and then they become collectors items (not a bad thing, but not my cup of tea). Too much fussiness, and then you gotta buy too much insurance, and you have to worry about the tool. I am glad there are all sorts of folks in woodworking with all sorts of ideas and values, and philosophies. It makes things interesting. I liked what the Boss had to say about tools the other day, "If I visit a woodworker's house, I want to spend time in his living room, not in his shop." I believe that you would rather spend time in the person's shop. Am I correct in that?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel
You make a couple of statements that are illogical when you look at them against your own answers:
If you did not feel happy with the Blue Spruce marking knife, why buy it in the first place? I bought it because the shape and length of its blade is what I was looking for. Could you have found another tool to do the same job? If they had a cheaper model with the same blade, I would have gone for it.
But they obviously did not have another to this specification, which means it was the cheapest tool of its kind.
Then you said:
But woodworking tools, IMHO, should be ready to put in a tool box and taken to a work site, and USED. But that is one of my underlying beliefs, not a hard and cold Fact that applies to all.
What makes you expect that quality tools are not treated like any other? I am afarid that you are showing a bias here, and that something akin to reverse snobbery is creeping into your writing.
The fact that one may have "nice" tools should not presume that those tools will be treated any differently by that person than "lesser" tools by another. I treat all my tools the same. That is, they all get looked after the same way, regardless of cost. I have a Marcou. It is just a plane. An expensive plane, but it gets used like any other plane.
I liked what the Boss had to say about tools the other day, "If I visit a woodworker's house, I want to spend time in his living room, not in his shop." I believe that you would rather spend time in the person's shop. Am I correct in that?
You are making assumptions that, because I built and review tools, that these are my main interest in woodworking. I like art and creativity. These come in many forms. I much prefer furniture as art to tools as art, but I take both as they come. I enjoy seeking and finding elegant solutions, whether they are joinery in a handplane or joinery in a side table. Art has a flow, an aesthetic, and this may be found in a chisel handle, a chair leg, and a lady's calf.
I do not draw a distinction between "living room" and "shop". I consider such the mark of simplistic and prejudiced thought. We are who we are, and we are many things. Open yourself to all. Charles wants only to acknowledge one part of the word of woodworking, his part. This has always been the essence of his writings. Have you ever known him show an interest in someone with a view different from his own? (Generally he plays with you, one day feigning interest, and the next taking a bite out of your throat). I do not believe that he means to seek another's soul by "visiting his livingroom" but indicates that he wishes to do by his own definition of what constitutes a soul. This is not being open-minded.
Are we taliking about woodworking or philosophy? Can they be separated?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,I don't want to get into "you are illogical or a reverse snob" thing. I am sick of listening to the two candidates running for President of the US. I bought the Blue Spruce happily. I pointed out that they could have been made cheaper by making them less fancy. No illogic thereI am not a reverse snob. I am not against expensive tools. I highly recommend a saw that costs much more than its competitors - The Sawstop. Why would anyone buy a cheaper saw. Are your fingers worth $2000? You bet your bippy they are. It is worth it to spend the extra money on the sawstop.I don't want to get into name calling or into defending myself on name calling. Let's talk about something that doesn't cause such behaviors. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
At the risk of hitting you where it seems to hurt most, LV has just reintroduced their striking knife, basically an Asian version of the Blue Spruce type, for $19.50. I couldn't wait, so I bought one from Chester Toolworks at double the price. It's beatifully made in America in the wood of my choice from (I'm sure) better steel, so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. And I'm helping to keep a guy with traditional blue-collar values in a job.
Jim
Jim,
OH DARN. If I had just waited, I could have gotten a bargain from LN. But I have the BS, and I like it. No sense crying over spilt milk. You have changed my life. In the past when someone asked me which marking knife I like best, I said the BS. From now on I will say the LN. Thanks for helping me keep my job. My wife thanks you too. :-)
THREE CHEERS FOR THE FIVE REMAINING BLUE COLLAR WOODWORKERS.
So far, it is you, Sarge, Boss and I. I wonder who the fifth is?Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
Actually it was LV -- don't get me into any more trouble! I find it interesting that LV took that knife off the market for a year or so because apparently they weren't satisfied with the quality they were getting from their Asian maker. LV has a Canadian plant where they could have manufactured a marking knife. That they chose not to suggests to me that they couldn't produce a stripped-down version of the boutique models at a competitive price using North American labour. Makes Blue Spruce and Chester prices seem more reasonable. Marking knives are a niche market anyway, the more so as there are several styles, so they're never going to be mass-produced. An Exacto does a good job, but it just doesn't fit my hand.
I did wear the blue collar more often than the white. Darn thing itched. Don't wear any now.
Jim
Jim,
So it was a LV. That makes sense. I went to the website to buy one, and it was gone. So I called them up. I believe they told me they weren't sending it down to the US. I felt bad. I figured they were paying the US back for something we did years ago. Glad to hear it is back.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Marking knives are a niche market anyway, the more so as there are several styles, so they're never going to be mass-produced. An Exacta does a good job, but it just doesn't fit my hand"... Jim
Yep and you don't have to worry too much about dull... I use one at $1.99. Set of extra blades will set you back another $3.00 or so though, even if they will last for years.
I highly expect the next boutique WW'ing tool to be a pencil. Maybe some Honduran Mahogany for the shaft and crafted to hold a point ten strokes longer than a pencil from Office Depot from the value pack.
We've come a long way in WW.... baby. Oh yeah.. bring it on! :>)
Sarge..
Hi Sarge
Thought you were kidding, didn't you? A packet of six leads for the Original Mechanical Pencil at LV costs $18.95.
I'd still be using the Exacto -- gets into tight spaces -- but my fingers need something fatter to grip on these days. Don't know what I'd do if I had to give someone a gliff on the jaw.
Jim
but my fingers need something fatter to grip on these days.... Jim
I prefer a little larger handle than the Exacta has also, Jim. So.. I just wrapped duct tape around it till I got it where I wanted it. So... another $.30 cents blown.. but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do to make it right regardless of cost. :>)
Sarge..
"So.. I just wrapped duct tape around it till I got it where I wanted it. So... another $.30 cents blown.. but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do to make it right regardless of cost. :>)"
Nah. Canajuns stopped fixing things with duct tape after the Red Green show aired. I'm not sure, but I don't think the hardware store sells it anymore. ;^(
Jim
"stopped fixing things with duct tape"....
Then I would highly recommend a corn cob for the handle which can be obtained from any grocery fresh veggie section and dried. That's another $.30 cents so the add on cost cannot be avoided unless you have your own corn-field or access to one.
I had two corn cobs out drying, BTW. But... a couple of my yard squirrels borrowed them as I saw them sitting on a limb eating the kernels. Fortunately they did drop the to the ground when finished and a saved me the shucking task. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 8/11/2008 1:12 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
The $3.99 chisel I bought to pry up old linoleum floor tiles was ready for the task right out of the box.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
I'm currently making chisels and considering offering them to the public. And this is an issue that keeps me up at night. I know folks want chisels that are "plug 'n play". Folks want everything "ready to go" out of the box. In the case of computer equipment, that might make sense. But in terms of tools like chisels, it makes no sense to me at all.
Basically, you want to pay me to do what you will do a thousand more times. I just don't understand that. If i could ship chisels unsharpened and whose backs needed 1/2 hour of flattening, I could really lower the price. Call them "chisel kits" if you wish. What I would like to do is use my experience and expertise on other features that you can't readily fix and will never touch again.
I think 18th c saws were like this. I think they sold saws with X number of teeth and woodworkers adjusted them (because they knew how) to their needs. So while there is no data or evidence of cross cut saws, the fleam may well have been added in the shops. This is really an extra step that I should charge more for in my shop.
Adam
The OP wrote:
"I guess you really "get what you pay for"
Just my opinion, but I would modify that old adage to say "You get at most what you pay for". There are many instances on both extremes of the initial purchase price scale when its possible to get considerably less than what you paid for. My opinion is that most of these instances are concentrated on the extreme lower end of the purchase price scale (and I do mean on the extreme lower end of the price scale).
An example of this concept was something I saw in a woodworking store a couple of weeks ago. Among the marking gauges were several examples on the higher end of the price scale - a crown tools traditional example made of rosewood, a tite-mark, and a veritas with a similar design to the tite-mark. On the lower end of the scale was a beech example with a plastic thumb screw, and on the extreme lower end was a Stanley made completely of thin, injection molded plastic.
In the case of the tite-mark, veritas and crown tools examples, there is no cost-shifting. The manufacturer has done all of the work, and no tuning is required from the purchaser, and in the case of the tite-mark, the price also includes some innovative design features that makes it considerably easier to use and more efficient. In the case of the beech example, there is some cost-shifting, in that the plastic thumb-screw will quickly need to be replaced by a steel, brass, or hardwood example, and the point on the gauge will require 10-15 minutes of sharpening before it will work (it was really that dull and rounded).
In the case of the extreme low-priced example (the plastic Stanley), no amount of tuning by the purchaser will result in a good-quality functional product. The material in the shaft and stock was thin enough to be easily flexed in use, resulting in considerable inaccuracy in the marked line, the thumbscrew (also plastic) was loose enough in the threaded hole to make sufficient tightening not possible, and was thin and fragile enough to be snapped off easily. In my view, this was the most "expensive" tool on the rack for what you're buying, even though the purchase price was 1/10th of the purchase price of the most expensive example (the Tite-mark).
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