Replies

1. 
   user-17340 | May 14, 2003 04:07pm | #1

   I'd like to help you, but can you attach a pic???

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 14, 2003 05:43pm | #2

   Just another senior moment oops.  Here are the pix.

   
1. 
   davamoore | May 14, 2003 11:08pm | #5

   Alan, right off the bat let me say 1) I like a lot about the table and 2) that I think you've provided us with one of those excellent "teaching moments" by posting pictures that include both the drawings (on birch ply) and their three-dimensional realizations.  Although I have a tendency to design on the fly (and to rush when I get excited about an idea, both of which are big no-nos), these photos show the value of taking a stepwise approach.

   The biggest example of this is the curve in the leg.  Two-dimensionally, on the drawing, the lower curve looks about right.  But when you see the three-dimensional mock-up you realize that the compound curve, taken together, creates (to my eye at least) a bit too much movement in and out.  The leg, in its current format, looks a bit spindly and sprawled out.  I would imagine that all four might look a bit like a giraffe taking a drink of water -- you know, with its legs sort of stretched out in every direction?  (That wasn't meant to sound as snotty as it does -- and your design certainly doesn't go to that extreme -- I was just trying to illustrate the point.)

   I wouldn't toss the design, my thought would be just to soften the lower curves somewhat, to give a hint of upward movement, rather than downward spreading.  This might also help by starting with a slightly thicker leg and not going quite so narrow at the bottom.  I think you said you were starting with a 1.25" upper post; perhaps a 1.5" start might be better.  Also, since your table is 26" tall, that might help ground things a bit without being too heavy-looking.

   I tend to agree with Andrew re: the edge treatment on the top.  I also like the design very much, but it does seem a bit modern for such a traditional leg (even with the cool curve on the lower part of the leg). 

   At the show this last weekend I was talking with David Orth (check out http://www.orthfurniture.com; his stuff's amazing) about learning to design, and one of the ideas that came out of that conversation (and I'm paraphrasing both of us) was this:  When you're designing a new piece, try to determine what the themes are -- and themes, as used here, can mean anything from type of wood, style, shapes, colors, etc., so don't limit your thinking -- and then choose one to be dominant.  Use the others selectively, to either complement or counterbalance the primary theme, so that there's both unity and interest in the piece.

   So again, the idea may not be to throw out the top edge treatment altogether, but to bring it into a bit more harmony with the leg.  Right now the top and the leg seem, to me, to be a bit too far on the "counterpoint" end of the point-counterpoint continuum, and they're fighting for our attention.  Perhaps stylize the "knee" of the leg just a bit to match the tabletop edge treatment, or move the edge treatment a bit further toward the traditional.  Which of the two excites you the most?  The leg or the top?

   Or, use the "rules" to your advantage and break them altogether.  Find a way to showcase the fight between the modern top and traditional leg.  Color might be an option here, e.g., ebonizing the wood of the top to emphasize its modernity, or ebonizing the legs to force them from the 18th Century to the 21st.  Just ideas -- and I certainly wouldn't use curly maple or mahogany as the base material in that case!!!

   Re: the drawer, yes, if it's full, goes directly under the tabletop and there's no pull, fingers might get crushed.  I'd consider adding a pull or some type of indicator (perhaps a small curved cut-out at the bottom) to guide the user's hand to a safe area.  The pull might also offer a chance to find a go-between between the top and the legs, in style, color, etc.

   I don't think pegging the apron tenons into the leg would be necessary.  I'd imagine the table is probably not going to be hit with that level of abuse.  If you did peg, I'd do your best to hide them, since that doesn't seem to be in keeping with the style of the piece.

   Perhaps simply doweling the shelf into the legs would be sufficient, since the shelf doesn't appear to be necessary structurally (given the leg/apron connection), and is mostly likely going to hold some books or boxes of tissue, right?  Nothing too heavy?

   Will the top be too small to hold a small lamp, a couple of books and a drink of water?  How will your kids be using the table -- do they read a lot at night, in bed?  My own bedside tables have to be substantial, because I read late into the evening and always end up with a stack of books, water, TV remote, contraband stolen from the dog's mouths, etc., on top of them.  Also, given the height and the (if you choose to do this) slightly thicker legs, you might want a somewhat more substantial top.

   I might hold on ideas for the finish, until you've answered some of the above.  Those decisions might sway your thinking, vis-a-vis traditional vs. modern finishing options.

   I hope this helps.  Remember, it's my opinion only... really.

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

2. 
   NormInFujino | May 15, 2003 05:40am | #10

   Excellent work on the prototypes, S4S.

     My own amateurish perspective is:

    I think Andrew is right in his comments about the contrast in tabletop and leg styles. And I also like Sgian's description of the continuous line that should ideally run through a leg.

   Instead of a recurved cabriole-type leg, I wonder if a leg with a single curve (tapered with scalloped edges) similar to that on the tabletop might not match?

   ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

   Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

1. 
   SgianDubh | May 15, 2003 07:04am | #11

   I wouldn't say the continuous column rule was 'ideal' as such, Norm, but I would say that it's my general preference as it does provide strict limits for the designer to follow, and the continuous column should help provide strength. The overly curved style of cabriole leg has been around for a long time, and sometimes it works-- the British Edwardians were fond of it in their dainty and wobbly tables.

   Even weaker in the cabriole line, there are more curvaceous legs such as the Flemish scroll leg, and the hock leg. In the former, both below, and above the knee, the curvature is extreme in opposing directions making the leg weak. In the latter, there is a straight shin, with a roll for a foot below the ankle, and a cutaway semicircular shaped thigh:-- the semicircular thigh is obviously structurally suspect, as is the ankle above the rolled foot. Slainte.

   Website                                   The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.

   Edited 5/15/2003 1:12:37 AM ET by RichardJ

2. 
   Andrew | May 14, 2003 07:27pm | #3

   IMO the legs have a bit too much of a curve in them, and they could be a little thicker (not much, but it would be hard to give a measurement without seeing them in person). I think that they would look too delicate after the edges have been rounded and shaped. I believe fine woodworking did an article on cabriole legs where they had a formula that would calculate an aesthetically pleasing radius for a given length. (I can't remember which issue it was in off hand though)

   The top is a really cool design, however I think it would work better with a more modern leg design. If your interested in changing the legs, Richard (Sgian) designed a really nice looking, more modernized variation of the cabriole leg that I think would go very well with that table top. I'm sure he wouldn't mind you borrowing the design if you wanted to. He wrote an article in Woodwork magazine about building a kitchen table that had those legs, and I think there are pics of it on his site.

   Andrew

3. 
   davearnone | May 14, 2003 11:05pm | #4

   S4S, I commend you on coming up with your own design, documenting it, prototyping and then seeking feedback!  Very impressive!

   When I look at the piece, I see a design that has a lot of action and energy.  Table and leg curves look lithe and muscular.  Kind of like an athlete standing on the balls of their feet ready for action.  That's is what I see.

   So, I'd encourage you to ask yourself

   1) Is what dave sees what YOU see?

   2) Is what you see consistent with your goal of a bedroom piece?

   Again, very nice work.

   dave

4. 
   SgianDubh | May 14, 2003 11:46pm | #6

   The first thing I noticed s4s, is that the leg is rather too bandy for my taste with the curves too accentuated. It's a look that can work, but I often feel it makes the legs look as if they're going to collapse on themselves. Others like the style and will defend it successfully-- well, design aesthetics are subjective after all, ha, ha.

   For myself, I nearly always stick to the rule of thumb (in planning cabriole leg shapes) that at least a small column of wood must remain from top to bottom completely undisturbed by any curves that form the back or front of the knee, calf, shin, and ankle, even if that undisturbed column is only 6mm (1/4") square or round. I've always felt this rule forces the designer to produce a graceful, elegant and refined form, whereas deliberately going for the shape you've produced can make the piece seem (to me anyway) a bit gaudy.

   I may have a sketch somewhere that will illustrate the principle, and if I do, I'll scan it and post it later. Slainte.

   Okay, Edit mode some time later. I didn't have a sketch handy, so I knocked one out to scale. It's a bit rough and would need some refinement full size, but the two sketches represent one example each of a leg about 600mm long out of a 70mm square blank (~24" X ~2-3/4".) The one on the left breaks through the continuous column I described, and the one on the right retains a full column of wood top to bottom. I prefer the one on the right, but as I said earlier design preferences are subjective. The ear hanging off to the right near the top of each leg is a separate piece added after assembly. Slainte.

   View Image

   Website                                   The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/14/2003 7:09:17 PM ET by RichardJ

5. 
   b1gcountry | May 15, 2003 12:02am | #7

   Well, I disagree with most people here; I think the 'modern' looking part of this table is the legs. Yes, they might be made like cabriole legs, but that's it. They aren't short, squat, and stubby, and they actually curve back on themselves quite a bit more than any ones I've seen before. I do agree that they seem to curve back maybe too much. I know everything seems to look more subtle TO ME when I'm sketching it out.

   I also disagree about the top and bottom being in opposition to one another. I think a square top would look out of place on a piece with these legs moreso than a curvy one. From the side you kind of have a hot-air balloon shape going, and the curve on the side detail emphasizes this.

   I would consider toning down the leg a bit, but the thing I might tone down more is the knee rather than the sweep. It seems to be uncomfortable coming out that far before sweeping back in. At least, if my leg stood like that, I would be uncomfortable!

   The legs look very delicate, but I think they will support the table okay, esp. with a shelf added for stability. If you put too big a drawer on it, then it will probably start to look top heavy, though.

   One thing I would make sure is that the feet are a few inches inside the outline of the table top, so that they aren't tripped over.

   Lots O Luck

   Tom

1. 
   davamoore | May 15, 2003 12:22am | #8

   Tom's ideas bring me to one other point:  go with your gut.  You, the artist (dare I restart the artist debate of a couple of years ago on Knots?), need to be the final decision-maker in terms of the message/look/function you want to present, and whether you're satisfied that you did so.

   To be a bit less artsy-fartsy about it, you just have to like it yourself and -- if you're trying to sell it -- you have to find the others who do, too.

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

1. 
   BG | May 15, 2003 12:46am | #9

   S4S,

   Great discussion for us beginners...thanks so much.  I think I've seen a similar shape to your legs on victorian plant stand pieces ...no opinion, just sharing

6. 
   davamoore | May 15, 2003 03:43pm | #12

   Alan, last night I was thinking about your design and what I had written about it, and I was suddenly -- and painfully -- reminded of the many writers workshops I participated in when I was just getting started in my career.

   Armed with a little bit of knowledge, and in an environment that used peer-level critiques as the educational tool of choice (laziness on the part of the instructors?), we (myself included) would enthusiastically review each others' work and spout off loads of semi-formed opinions that, in some cases, did as much harm as good -- especially if they weren't toned down or put in context by those with more experience.

   I'm not saying that my earlier thoughts re: your tables were worthless.  The naive can be wise, and the wise often foolish.  What I am saying is this:  Sift through the ideas you've been offered, decide what strikes you as making sense and thoughtfully file away the rest as interesting opinion.  Of course, I'm speaking of my own feedback, primarily.

   David

   "The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 15, 2003 05:34pm | #13

   To all who responded –

   I can’t thank all of you enough for your comments. All are being carefully considered. My comments on these comments follow, in the order of the posts.

   Andrew,

   The size comment is an interesting one. Somewhat delicate, but sufficiently strong, is one of the looks I was striving for. Maybe 1.5" would be better. You think that the edges will be rounded, and softened, but my thinking was otherwise. I planned to break the edges to avoid cuts and such, but not to round the edges at all.

   I think the article that you mention is the one by Lonnie Bird. I read that, and all of the others of significance that I could locate on the two indices (FWW’s, and the spreadsheet posted here a month ago or so). (BTY, if anyone wants it, I have it and can attach it or email it; it is in an Excel spreadsheet format. If I ever have copious free time, I would like to expand it, and bring it to current. Anyone want to volunteer to take a stack of say 10 or so issues, and do the work with others? I know I could find time for my ten. Then collate and post.)

   As to the combination of traditional vs. modern, my thinking was that while I described the leg as a cabriole (traditional term), the leg was meant to be quite modern. Woodwork is not a magazine to which I subscribe or read, and am not familiar with Richard’s design. I made a conscious decision not to cabbage another’s design work since I wanted it to truly be mine, and I wanted to learn the design process from scratch.

   dave (not moore),

   Good questions. I have just finished Seth Stem’s book on furniture design, and he in a methodical way lays out a method of approaching a new design. I write this from the office, and the book is at home, but basically as a starting point he recommends selecting a design concept, and then plugging in the functional requirements. The former issue is dealt with in other sections of this tome of a reply. As to the latter point, I needed the correct height, a top to hold bedside stuff, a drawer to hide or hold yet more stuff, and a shelf for books. At first I did not want to do a shelf, thinking that the shelf took away some of the lightness and grace of the piece, but on reflection the weight added may help ground an otherwise too light piece. Yes, athletic was a look I was seeking. To read the history of cabriole legs, at least from an older article in FWW by an art historian, the there is an animal-like look of a cabriole leg, connoting action, and it goes back to the Egyptians, at least. For me the issue was between a giraffe-look, or a hippo. I sought a middle ground, perhaps a gazelle who had overeaten a bit. Would that make it a deer or an antelope?

   David A. Moore,

   I am not at all insulted. I posted here to get feedback. Were I thin skinned, I wouldn’t have. Not a problem. My design history is to follow the no-no route you noted, to extremes. For example, I got excited about a garden bench, and built 5 at a time, only to later discover a design flaw, structural in nature I fear, that will bring each of these back to the shop for repair work in another couple of years. Sometimes I think I have dumb down to a science.

   Your comment on the thirsty animal is noted, and perhaps a bit more weight will solve that a bit. I think I will stay with curve being pretty severe since to see the curve in person, IMHO, is quite pleasing. When I did the pix, I changed the contrast and brightness to make the pix more dramatic; I thought they looked washed out as they came out of the camera. I am no photographer. (I was thinking of trying to barter with a photographer to trade a piece of furniture for a small portfolio shoot. Any takers in Southeastern Pa?)

   My primary, original, design theme was curves, coupled with movement. If you look at the full scale drawing, you might see the original curved leg; no knee or foot, just a tapered curve. The top was originally drawn and cut for those legs. I didn’t like the legs but did like the top. So, when I changed to a cyma curved, tapered, leg, I held with the shape of the top, just to see, thinking I would reject it. But even though uneasy with it, the people I showed it to liked the two together a lot, and so I have held it a bit longer than I thought I would. I am still unsure. The leg design is quite dramatic, and I think most would agree that it is this feature which is the strongest design element.

   As to the contrast, and the color suggestion – Recall a short while back a fellow here posted a chest on stand, of maple and mahogany (I think) where the two designs were quite different, and the woods also. I didn’t post to that thread, having nothing new to say (and that rarely stops me) but I agreed with the comments that the color contrast was too stark; and was a distraction.

   As to bringing together the two elements of the piece, the legs and the top, I was thinking of carving a pull which would work towards that, but my preliminary sketches of that aren’t worth a lick. And in any event, the comments about the top by you and others are leading me to consider an elliptical shape for the top, which would be a harmonizing element, and would eliminate the top edge treatment altogether.

   As to the tenon pegs, for strength I might decide to do it (the present posts are pretty small, and I will make the tenons smallish to not weaken the leg posts), and could do the pegs from the inside, but I thought that there are traditional elements to this design as well as modern ones, and the pegged tenons might bring it back, visually, to a bit more of a traditional look.

   Selling the piece is not high on the list of priorities, but who knows. I have sold pieces from time to time, but the profit is always zero since I just use the money to retool. I maintain a "wood" checking account, free from the family’s gaze, and that account is a taboo subject of discussion.

   Richard,

   A special thanks for you are in order. To have a professional of your caliber take time to respond is very thoughtful indeed, especially when you could have used your spare time to attack the honey-do list (LOL).

   I am aware of the traditional rule that says the leg stock should go top to bottom, at least a little, and deliberately violated that rule. Whether wisely is matter of taste, I guess. I found the Bird article, which to me seemed to dictate a particular shape, to be useful as a beginning, but stifling to creativity. And no, I don’t deny that 1:1.618 is a pleasing proportion. The wonderful furniture from the 18th century has endured for a reason.

   The two drawings you did illustrate your point well, and I too find the one on the right to be more pleasing. It is a well drawn traditional cabriole leg. That said, however, I was going for a bit of a different look. The weight issue many noted elsewhere may cure the bandiness issue. I plan to redraw the leg at 1.5" (38.1mm) for the post, with the leg proportions to be increased accordingly, and if I like it a bit, will do a 2d mock up. It is a pretty curve, and I should be able to hold most of the look in heavier stock. If I do this, I will repost.

   As to the strength issue, I have just received my 12/4 mahogany for the leg blanks. Rift cut, as spec’d, and straight grained. I don’t think a lack of strength is likely. Can’t wait to attack with a spokeshave and drawknife (not in that order). Came in at 13" wide x 3 1/8 by 54", the 8 legs will come from a single plank. Got to love Groff & Groff. I just called Morris there, and he knows me, so I told him what I wanted, and he picked me a nice piece. With the 3 hrs driving time saved, a 2d design leg is in the offing.

   big country

   Finally someone who thought the leg was modern. Please confirm with the rest of the forum that you are not my shill (LOL). Now I have to get you to the animal mode, and away from hot air balloons. Was that comment a tweak on my day job (an attorney)? Just kidding.

   The drawer is drawn at 3.75" in overall height, which will yield 3.25" ID. Any smaller and it will be less useful. Do you think it is too wide as drawn? I can cheat a little.

   The legs finish ½" inside the plan view of the perimeter of the top, but if I change to an oval, then this will change too, of course. Tripping is bad, but so is knocking over, and there are two medium and frisky dogs who share their abode, a rescue mongrel about ½ pit bull, and very friendly, and a red heeler, very smart, and the two like to fight playfully a bit, although if you didn’t know it was playing you might be upset to see it. Both are tough and strong dogs, and they have free reign of the house and the lot.

   Norm in Fujino

   Note above – I think what you were suggesting is where I started, and then moved on (whether in a good direction being debatable). I wanted some movement in the piece, and hence the change.

   Again, my deepest and warmest thanks to all.

1. 
   davamoore | May 15, 2003 05:51pm | #14

   Alan, I'm looking forward to seeing the tables "in-vivo" next month.  I hope delivery won't be required before then.

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 15, 2003 08:36pm | #15

   Dave,

   Although it is difficult to resist the temptation to rip into the leg stock, I am trying mightily to bring a studied approach to this project.  Heck, I'm not even certain that the new leg pattern or mockup will be done by then.

   Alan

2. 
   ian | May 20, 2003 04:26pm | #16

   I know I'm late to this discussion, however I would like to offer the following:

   Include a sliding shelf in the design.  this could be a board that slides over say a third of the drawer, or a totally separate pull-out shelf above or below the drawer.  Why?  It provides an always available surface to rest a coffee cup on when breakfasting in bed!

   Ian

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 20, 2003 04:51pm | #17

   You are not too late.  Interesting idea.  Maybe it could slide out from the side.  I am now working on a revised leg design, and will post further.  Thanks.