I am considering a smoothing plane. I have low-angle blocks an a low-angle smoother. If you have knowledge of planes, where would you go after that in a smoothing plane? I notice that the iron is slightly wider on each one, an the weight jumps on each number to compensate.
Without purchasing all three, what is the best comprimise in your opinion an why.
Thanks for any in-put you can provide in advance…
sarge..jt
Replies
I don’t believe there is any question that the 4 ½ is an ideal smooth plane. The weight and size of the plane make it a very stable platform. The only possible downside is the extra cutting width may make it a little harder to push through dense woods, but I find this to be a minor concern ( even with my weak stature).
I have and would not hesitate to recommend the LN 4 ½ with the high angle frog. Despite its high cost it was worth every penny.
Rob Millard
Rob-Matt-Scott
Thanks for the input. I am not a plane expert, but used the lenght, weight an iron width to figure out it was probably the way to go. I was tossing the #4 an #4 1/2 around as to what elements would make one a better choice. The #1, #2 an # 3 seem like they were possibly designed for someone younger with smaller hands. Maybe there is something I don't know about their uses.
Again, thanks for a little assist in an area I don't consider one of my strong points. I'm getting there, but just taking it one step at a time as I have with the other tools I do know well. ha..ha..
Evening....
sarge..jt
I second what Rob said. The 4 1/2 can do everything the other 2 can. Plus it's less prone to chatter.
I too would have to say the #4 1/2. I own a old Bailey that I have tune up and it works great. I am buying a new LN with the improved chipbreaker and high angle frog this fall at the wood working show. I love my #4 also and use it almost as much.
Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Planes are like hammers--size 'em for the job you're doing.
I'm 6'2" and wear extra large gloves. If I had but one smooth plane on a carpentry type job site it'd be a #2. Working in the shop, it'd be wooden smooth plane with a 2" iron.
The honest reality is that personal preference and tasks at hand give quite a number of options. I can say that I have a 4 1/2 smooth plane. It's very rarely used. There's a reason the #4 and #5 planes are the most common of the Stanley Bailey type of planes.
Larry
Will the extra 3/8" iron on the # 4 1/2 come into play? I am aware the #4 is has a 2" iron. I was originally going with a #4 an #5 jack an then either a #7 or #8 jointer when I get there.
What's your take on #7 an #8 between the two, if you could only have one?
Thanks for your in-put...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
I don't yet have a 4-1/2, and don't believe that I have been slighted with my #4. It is an older Stanley (not Bedrock) and it works great for most everything I have thrown at it. For larger panels, I would like to have the wider plane, but the #4 works. I use it as a substitute for a block plane at times and for trimming end grain (a sharp blade does wonders). I just worked on tuning a #3 tonight and will try that tomorrow (maybe) but don't see it getting as much use. It will come in handy for trimming the tops and bottoms of drawers and making all sides co-planer (I think).
I started out my hand plane collection, .. er assortment, with a horrid #4, a good #5 and a good #7. It wasn't long after that when I realized I needed a good smoother. As far as your question on the #7 vs #8. I don't have the #8, but find the #7 sized right for me. Any larger and I would probably only use it for very large panel work. The #7 is heavy enough for extended use. Maybe I should switch to a C&W wooden bodied jointer, hmmmm?
Brian Brady
"If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting." - Unknown
Brian
I'm starting to get the impression that some of the plane sizes are very close an the personal feel an preformance for an individual plane is in the "eyes of the be-holder". This leads me to think that trying several #'s of friends will go a long way in deciding what I feel comfortable with an what I feel preforms best for my needs.
I have kept up with tools for 30 years now, but the planes have always been sort of a mystery. Some of that mystery is beginning to un-wind with the help of you guys that rely on them more than the modern machines. My machines get the job done an quickly, but there is a certain mystic in the air when I have the plane in hand whishing on stock. I'm afraid this is becoming habitual.
I just took a cheap Stanley 60 1/2 block an tuned it to the max. Even replaced the cap iron with a longer one from a Record 09 1/2. It did some fine trim an end-grian work on a Micro-Wave table I just completed. I do know how to sharpen. I'm afraid to try the LN, Clifton, HNN Gordon an CW. There goes the checking account.
Thanks for your insight... everyone's piece's of info seem to be adding up to the "big picture" an the mystery is being erased. Looks like instead of lazer guided weapons, I'm leaning toward "fixed bayonets". Well, you only go around once. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Sarge
I have the LN 4 1/2 and love it. But it's the only plane I own so far, and the only one i've ever used, so I can't compare. It's a working relationship, always improving as I get it fine tuned an learn to use it properly.
In relation to the 7 vs 8, The LN 7 uses the same blade as the LN 4 1/2, making them interchangeable (2 3/8 wide for the 7 and the 4 1/2, 2 5/8 wide for the 8), just a small thing really.
LN can now be bought with a really chunky chip breaker to, it costs $10 more. check it out http://www.lie-nielsen.com
Ben.
Ben
Thanks for the LN web-site. I get to see the LN's, HNN Gordons an Cliftons at Highland Hardware often. The web-site gives me details onm each one I can look for in person.
Regards...
sarge.jt
Sarge, one way to look at the various plane options is to compare the blade widths and sole lengths.
The #3 and #5.25 both have a 1.75in blade, the #4 and #5 both use a 2in blade, whilst the #4.5, #5.5, #6 and #7 all use a 2.375in blade. In practice this means that if you have both a #4 and a #5 you can tune one blade for softwood (25deg bevel, say) and one for hardwood (35deg bevel, say) and swap the blades between planes depending on the wood you are using and the planing task. You need duplicate blades if you don't have the plane pair.
The shorter soles of the #1, #2, #3 suggest that they are better suited for smaller work pieces where a #4 would be too long.
Lastly, a #3 or #4 are probably better bets than a #4.5 for shoot board work.
Disclaimer: although the above is about iron bodied planes it does not follow that an iron plane is superior to a wooden bodied plane.
ian
Thanks. That makes sense. I have learned more about planes in the past two months than over 31 years. An I have a feeling that there is much more to learn.
I have not had the pleasure of using a wooden plane yet. I think I will try one out at Highland Hardware one week-end as I'm there at least every other.
Have a good evening...
sarge..jt
If you really want a good plane and have a few dollars kicking around then check out Holtey Classic Handplanes. They make LN look like something you would pick up at the dollar store for $0.50.
http://www.holteyplanes.com/Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Scott
The Holtey's look nice, but I can buy acreage for the same price an build a new shop in the woods. ha..ha..
sarge
Another consideration would be the ECE Primus smoother. It is a wood-bodied plane with an adjustment mechanism that is very good. Plus the cost new is quite a bit less than a LN.
http://www.ecemmerich.com
COLINSDAD
I am fortunate enough to be close to Highland Hardware. They have carried LN, Record, Stanley, HNN Gordon an the ECE Primus for many years. I can acutally see them an touch. Even take a test ride if I want. I have never done so as just got re-interested in hand-planes. I am interested in how the wooden bodies preform.
Thanks for the in-sight...
sarge..jt
My, my, my. They charge as much for a replacement blade as Lie-Nielsen charges for the whole plane! I bet they're good.
One would tend to think that you pay more for better. But at that price they had better do the work for me. I love the level of finish he puts into his work. I would love to be able to do his level of work.Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Gee Scott, too bad they don't give the bodies a heavy layer of gold - that would bring the price up to what the plane is really worth!!!!
I would pay what he is asking for the plane if I had the money. The level of finish would be worth it.Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Honestly, from his website's description each plane must be a work of art with many hours of machining and hand work put into it - still, beyond what I'd be willing to pay even if I could afford it. (I'm thinking of the time I passed on a beautiful pre-WWII Stanley UK jack plane because I didn't want to spend the $40. Talk about tighter than the bark on a tree.)
Have you taken a look at the infill kits Shepherd Tool has on sale? From what I've read they're relatively easy to build and one could get quite fussy about the level of finish as it's assembled. The price certainly seems right.
http://www.shepherdtool.com/JULY%20AUGUST%202003%20SALE%20EVENT.htm
Jeff
Yes I have looked at going that route. I am building my own infill plane but am still in the design stages.Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
If I could only have one plane it would be a #7, it will do everything, add a low angle block and you really have it all. With all that, however, the #4 1/2 would be a great addition. Mine are mostly old Bedrocks found at flea markets, fixing them up is a great way to learn about them.
nap
Thanks, I was leaning towards the #7 down the road. Unless I just get thrilled with a #8 I borrow, the #7 will probably come first.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
For a jointer, I prefer the #8 over the #7. It's a couple inches longer. But to be honest, I'm a lot like other people and asinine judgements my rule something I do or choice I make. My leaning to the #8 is more for aesthetic reasons. I just think it's better proportioned and looks better.
How's that for a stupid answer? I always had three or four #7s floating around but always grabbed the #8 and it's the only reason I can come up with. It could also be that I kept the #8, actually a 608, better tuned just because I liked it more.
Edited 8/11/2003 11:18:29 PM ET by Larry Williams
Larry
I will use both an see what I think. I understand your answer. I have a fishing plug I caught a 12 pound bass on years ago when I had time to fish. Guess which plug comes out of that tackle box with all the other surrounding it regardless of conditions or season. ha..ha..
I'll be on the look-out for the big brown truck that delivers those #7 an #8 Clark an Williams demo's. Just in case UPS is running behind, I won't hold my breath though. ha..ha..
BTW, is there anywhere I can see a C&W without having to purchase it? I know most you guys make are special order, but I would like to least touch one before I play the final card.
Thanks again...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Joel at Tools for Working Wood in NYC carries the C&W line and brings them to the WW shows. I held the coffin smoother last November.
Mike
Mike
Larry mentioned they carried the line. I'm not sure if they make the Atlanta WW Show, though. I can call an ask, I suppose.
Thanks an have a great week-end...
sarge..jt
Hey Larry.... do you guys make #8s?
Yep; see:88888888888888888888888888888
We don't make metal planes, Charles. Thomas Lie-Nielsen makes one that I can highly recommend. Here's a link:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=8&cart=106081589729428
Well, I meant the equivalent (24" or longer) wooden plane. I thought you knew that I knew that you made only wooden planes. :-)
Not sure if Larry is aware of it (okay.......) but according to his website they make a trying plane 22" long and their jointers are 28" - 30". Now that's a plane Tim Allen should have!
One might have thought that Larry would smell a sale in the air since I bought a set of H&Rs from him a while back. Oh well.
I've been having God-awful problems with my right elbow and I'm thinking about unloading my iron bench planes. I have a Primus smoother and it's the only plane that does not make me want to cry when I use it. I guess the weight difference helps, or maybe something about the ergonomics. I love how my right hand sets up on that plane when in use. It just really feels good.
Primus makes jacks, jointers, moving fillisters, rebate, blocks - pretty much everything that I need, beyond the hollows and rounds I bought from Larry, a Stanley 45 I picked up off of Ebay, and a few other dedicated wooden moulding planes I bought here and there.
Edited 8/15/2003 8:06:06 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
I wouldn't get rid of anything before seeing a good orthopedic surgeon - or a sports medicine specialist. Never know, it may be something easily treated.
re. your Stanley 45, I've never read anything good about them, but nobody has been specific other than to say that they're difficult to set up. What has been your experience with it? Or, to put it another way, would you recommend one to a friend?
Jeff
BTW Don't know if this is a good price, but here's an ECE Primus jack plane that a dealer (Best Things) has on Ebay to buy outright. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2340886765&category=29526
Edited 8/15/2003 1:40:21 PM ET by Jeff K
Jeff, I love my 45. I have not found it terribly difficult to set up at all. In fact, I quit using my Record fillister (sp?) to cut rebates and started using the 45. It just feels better for some reason. The 45 sees heavy use as a plough plane, and I bead with it on straight stuff - I use an L-N beader mostly for curved stuff.
Yep, I'm about ready to go see a doctor. But, regardless of the ultimate treatment, the ECE smoother is surely easy on my arm (so that must mean something). And it does a very good job to boot. I don't think I'll miss the cast iron that much. I dropped a cast iron smoother a while back and of course it fractured. I stripped it for parts, chunked the body, and bought a new one.
In a strange twist of events, my elbow first started bothering me when I helped a friend move his shop - a pretty big operation with lots 'o heavy iron. Strange twist since I'm a hand tool only guy.
Thanks for the link to the jack plane. I may start the ball rolling with it. I had originally planned to just place an order with a distributor that carries the full range, you know, just order what I needed. But I may buy the line on a piecemeal basis.
You really ought to test drive the HNT Gordon smoother. Mine is from Highland. It is incredible. And I understand that the Clark and Williams is even better, but can't comment as I have not yet tried one. I have planed curly maple, and walnut burl veneer (home-cut) without tearout.
Alan
s4s
Thanks.. Highland has some demo's on the HNT Gordons. I will test drive one as I have never used a wooden plane. I'm certainly curious as to how they preform.
Now, if I could get that Larry Williams who makes the C&W planes to send me a demo, I'll be happy to test drive that too. Just kiddin' Larry... ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Tools for working wood .com, or something like that, is a reseller of the Clark and Williams planes, and there you can test drive them, should you be in New York City. He also has the Ray Isles smoother, an infill for about $600. I have not yet been there, but next time in the City I will try to stop by.
As to the Gordon, the smoother has a cross bar that is removable. A bit awkard at first, it is quite an asset. For example, when doing an edge, put the fingers of both your hands under the plane, in front of the iron, and let your wrists press down on the bar. This lets you keep pressure on the back of the plane while finishing off the end of the cut. Terriffic control all through the cut. On surface planing, use the bar as part of your grip. I am sure Highland will help you on this.
Enjoy,
Alan
s4s
Thanks for the tip. I had known that a retailer in NY carries the line. Larry Williams had mentioned in another thread. I was wondering if there is anything closer as I am not likely to hit New York anytime soon. ha..
That's why I ask Larry if anyone else might carry them that is closer, even thought I don't think so. BTW, in case you didn't know; Larry Williams that is posting in this thread is the Willaims business end of Clark & Williams or C&W planes.They are in Arkansas an that's much closer to me from Atlanta than NY.
Have a good evening...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Today I got the handplane book by Hack from the library....
Edited 8/12/2003 8:21:03 PM ET by BG
BG
Just headed to the shop an caught your post. I got it recently and it is excellent. The Work-Bench Book an it are two of my four favorites. Excellent book an if your library has it, I would say you have an excellent value also. ha..ha..
To the shop for thought an coffee...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
We occasionally demonstrate or give workshops around the country. The only event coming up soon is the last weekend of this month in Albuquerque. I've seen an awful lot of the country in the last few years. We did a show near you a couple years ago at Reinhardt College there when they opened the Sellers tool collection at the Funk Heritage Center. What an incredible collection of tools!
We don't have a lot lined up this year and I hope we can slow it down for a while. At one point last year I was gone for a month and a half for just one of several sets of shows and missed my daughter's 16th birthday. Don't feel too bad for her, she made up for it in the gift department. I've got an arm that's healing from surgery and I'm behind in work. My partner keeping up with bench planes, though.
Larry
Thanks for the reply. I live about an hour from Reinhart an have several friends that went to school there back in the late 60's. I did not know of the Seller's collection. I will drive up one week-end an check it out.
I've kinda got my eye open for land in N. Ga., western N.C. an eastern Tenn. as I hope to escape the Atlanta area in a few years when I retire completely. I like big hills an mountains. Actually I like anywhere there is minimal traffic an life is simple. Put some big hills, lakes, streams an forest there an I could call it home. ha..ha..
Regards to the gentleman from the Great State of Arkansas..
sarge..jt
Sarge,
I have been using a nicely tuned #5 for most tasks for a bit now, and it really does the job nicely. I have acquired a second one, and have tuned it with a wider mouth, to take a little bit heavier cut. That said, I am in the process of cleaning and tuning a 4 1/2 that I got off of E-bay. Between the cost of the tool, and a Hock blade and chip cutter, I have probably less than half the cost of a LN 4 1/2. I thought this might appeal to your frugal nature! I have spent a good bit of time lapping the sole, and have filed, sanded, smoothed and polished other parts, as described in David Charlesworth's excellent book. I will let you know how it performs when done, and what my all-in cost is.
Paxton
Gee, I can't imagine why everyone thinks I'm frugal. Come to think of it, maybe I can. That sounds better than the expression my wife uses. She laughs an calls me cheap, but when I make something exceptional from someone else's junk, she raves to her friends about how frugal I am. ha..ha..
That's a clever idea an I will put the word out to my local WW an watch E-bay. I don't mind all the lapping to get the sides an sole flat. I kind of enjoyed tuning the cheap block plane I purchased. It was a lot of work, but I got introduced to work due to circumstances at 12. I take a lot of pride in taking cast-offs an making them functional an efficeint.
Let me know how your project fairs. You seem aggressive an determined to make it work an work right... That's good!
Evening...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
On your quest for the "right" plane. I have read many of the other posts, and I would tend to agree with those that suggest trying different sizes from friends. How they feel to you and work in your hands is more important than the size/specs. I have collected a number of planes over the years, some new, some used. They are block, low angle block, #3,4,4 1/2, 5, 5 1/2, 6 a Primus 9" smoother a 24" jointer; and various special planes. Sounds like I am a plane nut, but I use them all even though I have a shop full of power tools. When tuned up they all perform great.
However, I find that there are two that I use the most. A Stanley #3, and a Clifton #6. The # 6 has a heft and feel that I like as I am a relatively large guy. It handles most grain with ease. I use it on large as well as small work, because of the feel. The #3 is for fine work, but feels light in my hands, though use it a lot. The number 5 1/2 is what I use most for rough work, and sometimes for other stuff. The Primus are great planes, but the soles do warp and have to be trued up every couple of years. The Primus smoother has a steep angle, and is excellent on end grain. The Primus jointer is used for leveling large panels, that I only do a few times a year.
When I started out using planes (back in 1980), I did some research and saved up and bought the Primus smoother & Jointer and the Stanley 5 1/2. These served me well for years.
I do lust after the LN's at the woodworking shows, but have too many other priorities.
Again, try them because the way they feel to you is what is most important.
Elbert
Elbert
You have summed up briefly what I have drawn from this discussion. I think a smoother, a jack an a jointer is a good start. I intend to use some friends an the demo's at Highland Hardware to decide which ones I prefer.
I did take a quick cruise with a friends LN low-angle smoothing plane this after-noon. Whoa Molly.. It's a "Tool's Tool". Being frugal as I am, I will opt for something a little more modest, but someday I'm going there. ha..ha..
Thanks for your well thought out in-put. We tend to think along the same lines it seems.
Have a good week-end...
sarge..jt
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