Goofy electrical question. I’m gonna have my electrician run/install a couple of new 220 v outlets in my shop, and though he’ll know the answer to this, I’d like to know in advance. Is 220 like 110 in that you can run outlets on one circuit/wire or is each outlet wired on its own? Shop was heavied up a few years ago and is set up to accept the extra circuits.
Circuits will run planer and jointer. I’m sick of plugging unplugging everytime I switch machines. Other circuit will run the bandsaw which I can rewire from 110 to 220. TS is already on its own 220 line. Thanks in advance. JImmy
Replies
If I understand your question, can you run outlets in series with 220? Yes you can. What you should not do is pull more amps than the rating of the circuit (plugs,recepticle,wire,breaker). I have a circuit for my DC and another that has TS,BS, and soon to be added 12" jointer. All are rated for 20A(individually). I would never be running the TS,BS, and (future Jointer) at the same time so, no problems since I would not be pulling more than my circuit. Since the DC is always on when the other tool is running, it's by it's lonesome.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Thanks for the info, you read my question correctly. Jimmy.
Outlets in series? I don't think so.
Perhaps you meant multiple outlets on the same circuit. That means the outlets are IN PARALLEL. Now if you check the National Electric Code you will probably find that machines with HP ratings commonly forund in wood shops require dedicated circuits.
You boys are playing with fire, literally, with this jake leg electrician stuff. I know that qualified electricains are expensive. But remember, you are dealing with expensive equipment that should be respected and served properly. Also, it's a personal safety issue. And besides, if you think electricians are expensive, think how much it will cost to re-build your shop after it burns down, not to mention funeral costs if the worst happens.
There's no job so important, (or expensive), that it cannot be done safely.
Relax, he has an electrician, nobody here was actually wiring his shop. Also, I've seen enough screw ups by certified electricians, plumbers, and just about every other licensed trade in my lifetime to know that having a license doesn't always count for a lot.
John white
Ok, I may have used the wrong term, but explain to me how if you run one machine at a time and you will never exceed the required circuit requirement, that will cause a fire? And to the death part, of course if you don't know what you are doing, stay away from it, but he is using an electrician.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 1/17/2008 10:00 am by bones
My elec is top notch, so no worries there, even the Holmes on Homes guy would like him. Thanks for the imput. I'll have him run 2, maybe even 3 runs on different breakers...Jimmy
Not to split hairs with a previous post but the amps you are drawing on the 110 are not the same as you will be drawing at 220V. Your electritian will of course know this but in theory, if your tool is drawing 20amps on 110V it will draw 10amps on 220V. This is to say you could run two of such tools on the same amperage breaker that you could only run one on 110V.
This is of course one of the advantages of wiring for 220V. On your electric bill you pay for amps not volts. Now you will be using only half the amps to do the same job you were doing on 110V. My 2 cents.
"Now you will be using only half the amps to do the same job you were doing on 110V."
Not exactly. You will be using half the amps on each leg of the two legs of the 240v circuit. So you end up using pretty much the same total amount of power. The theory that you use half the total power by switching to 220 is a misconception. In other words, "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."
You'll save more money by switching to Geico than you will by switching to 220. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
hI - power (watts) is what you pay for. its defined as (amps * volts), so its a wash in terms of saving. that said, there probably is some small savings, like the motor runs cooler (less current) so more power goes into the rotation and not heating, motor might be more efficient with the higher voltage, etc... but these are all small effects. -yurij
"On your electric bill you pay for amps not volts."
No, you pay for energy consumption, typically measured in watt-hours (voltage × current × duration of use). That thing with the spinning disk is a watt-hour meter. The speed with which the disk spins tells you your instantaneous power consumption (voltage × current). The number of revolutions it makes between meter readings is what gets counted up on the little dials, and is what you pay for.
Unless you're seriously overloading your facility wiring (and thereby wasting energy in the wiring itself), running a given piece of equipment on one voltage vs. another will have a negligible effect on your electrical bill.
-Steve
I stand corrected.
Actually you are paying for watts, which is amps x volts. You are halving the wattage but doubling the volts so you are getting, and paying for, the same amount of power.
To be absolutely accurate, you are paying for watt hours, which is the amount of power you are drawing times the amount of time you are using it.
John W.
the electric meter is also sensitive to imbalances on the current draw on the two legs of 120V that make up your 240V service. if you pay attention to how you place the circuit breakers in the service panel you can lower your bill.
Yes, you can. If you're never going to run multiple machines at the same time, you'll be fine with more than one machine on the same circuit. Separate circuits allow you the freedom to run two or more machines at the same time. (For this reason, you'll usually want a dedicated outlet for the dust collector.)
-Steve
For my last shop I ran two circuits. One for the 22OV tools (TS, Jointer and Lathe), and one for the 220V dust collector. I had 4 plugs on the tool run. The DC had two, one at each place I considered placing the DC.
Yep, you get to choose. We just paid the bill for having my shop wired, and the electrician was originally going to put both 220V on one circuit, but I asked for 2 since I might want to conver the DC to 220 some day, meaning I'd want separate circuits for the table saw and the DC.
I'm doing all the wiring in my shop myself, and (forgetting that it is many times better to ask forgiveness than permission) I called the building inspector to quiz him about GFI outlets in my garage shop. In the courrse of the discussion, he mentioned that he expected each 220 volt circuit to have only one outlet. You mileage may vary.
I think it varies. I had an electrician come in and instal the circuits. More than one plug per run... and I had the whole thing inspected.
Here in Colorado Springs I was told by the electrical inspector that if it was a 20 Amp 220 volt circuit that he would allow up to 3 outlets using 12 gauge wire. If it was a 30 Amp 220 volt circuit using 10 gauge wire, then only one outlet would be allowed.
Edited 1/18/2008 11:51 am ET by Mrhermit
Maybe it is an issue with wire size. I used all 30 amp circuits, so I had to put only one outlet on each one. In a related issue, he insisted that the 220 volt outlets be GFI protected. This is not cheaply done, as I couldn't find any 220 volt GFI outlets. I learned that 220 volt GFI breakers are VERY expensive (pushing $200). I ended up buying a couple from a refurbishing outfit for about $80 each.An electrician I know said that this was ridiculous, he said he had wired many garage shops and had never seen an inspector insist of GFI protection for the 220 volt outlets, as large machines are usually not unplugged.
It's not wire size per se. Strictly speaking, it has to do more with how the circuit is going to be used. If you're installing a circuit in a specific location for a specific machine, then the circuit would normally be considered dedicated to that machine, and you would (a) size the circuit to that machine's requirements, and (b) install only one receptacle, since it wouldn't make any sense to have two receptacles for only one machine. On the other hand, if you want to be able to move your machines around, and you want to install multiple receptables to accommodate them, then those are normally considered to be "convenience" receptacles, and you can have more than one on a circuit, since you're not planning to use more than one at a time.
The gray area is in making the distinction between "dedicated" and "convenience" receptacles. It makes sense to move low-power equipment around, and so the "convenience" rules hold sway for ordinary 120V/15A and 120V/20A receptacles. It rarely makes sense to move really big equipment (say, 5 HP and above) around, so a receptacle for that level of service (240V/30A or 208V/20A 3Ø and above) will virtually always be considered to be dedicated. It's with the in-between stuff (primarily 240V/20A), where the answer isn't so clear, that you'll see variations from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and maybe even from inspector to inspector within a jurisdiction.
-Steve
What you ran into is a combos two issues. In most locals the code book is still evolving and like the tax code has got to the point that it is to big for anyone to really understand and it has codes that do not make any logical sense. Add in that in most towns the inspector is not really trained to do this job but is just someone (often for electrical an ex electrician) that "know" his job and you get issues. I can not count the times I (or others I have worked with) have pulled out the code book to prove the inspector was way the heck off. If you really want to get into a contest with them (it is usually not worth it) tell them you want them to give you the specific code they say you are violating. This often gets the issue dropped as either they do not want to bother, or they do not know of they are just wrong.
Also if you are doing this yourself you run into the issue that inspectors do not like this. Often they will say it is because you are not up to speed on the code, but I tend to think it has to do with the fact that most of these guys used to be in the trade and they do not like to have you do it as someone in the trade did not get to make the money off it. I have at least 5 examples of the house I am sitting in having to have things changed in them that the house next door got away with. And they are built at the same time with the same inspectors. But in the case of these issues it was not worth it to fight them.
One thing about the GFcI outlet on 220. If you have dedicated machines you are covered. But if it appears that you are just putting in 220 outlets then you are not. So if you have a LOT of 220 in the space you get hit with this unless you submit a plan showing the layout of the outlets and that each of them is dedicated to a machine.
Their is no logic in this but it is the way it is. I mean what is going to happen to the empty outlets? You are going to plug something into them. Because you do this they need GFcI protection. Ok so what do you do with the dedicated outlets. You plug something into them. So why do you need one protected and not the other? Because if they insisted on GFcI outlets for all 220 (as logic would say they should) they would have all the builders and electricians up in arms as the cost per job would sky rocket. I would have to guess that I would (in a typical house I design) need to add at lest 2 if not as many as 4 or 5 GFcI to this so it would jump costs up 300 to 1000 per house. This would make a lot of people unhappy. Thus the dedicated loop hole.
No logic just reality. And in reality if you are doing it yourself you do not have the backing of the electricians so you just have to take what the inspector tells you to.
Doug
how bout gfi breakers instead?
That's just the problem. As far as I know, nobody makes 220 volt GFI receptacles (at least I could find any after much web searching), so you have to buy GFI breakers. 220 volt (2 pole) 30 amp GFI breakers are very expensive. I guess it doesn't help that I'm using a Square-D QO panel - which has more expensive breakers to start with.
This one looks like it could be used in a duplex receptacle box. Here------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
If you're not going to run them at the same time, they can be on the same circuit, otherwise they need separate breakers. If you run them both at the same time on one circuit you'll trip the breaker.
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