Which is better? A 120 V or 220 V table saw?
pizza
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hi. I’m thinking about buying a new table saw. All things being equal, which type of saw is better to have… a 120 Volt or 220 V saw? I will need to bring 220 volt supply into my shop if that is the way to go. Thanks
Replies
Saw
I had a 110 than went to 220 - the benifits are much greater for the 220.
SA
Depends what you need
Hi,
The voltage of the saw doesn't necessarily make it better (220 is marginally more efficient-- not relevant unless you run your saw all day long every day of the year). The main difference is that wtih 220, much better saws are available.
Whether you need that much saw depends on the type of woodworking you do and wood you work with. I used a 1 HP 1956 Craftsman 9" table saw for years, because that was all I had access to. I eventually outgrew it and its slightly wobbly arbor and upgraded to a rebuilt (by me) 3 HP 1968 unisaw with a good arbor (and slighly wavy table). Do I like the Unisaw better, definitely yes, but I did cut miles of wood with the old Craftsman, and I still use it as a site saw on occasion.
And, when my kids get to woodworking age, the Unisaw will be replaced by a sawstop.
If you are buying new --or used for that matter, pay attention to things like the fence, where the switch is located, the ease of removing and reinserting the riving knife, how the dust collection works, etc, things like that. All those "side" things will greatly affect how you like the saw.
As a side note, if you do start drooling over all those nice cabinet saws, a 3HP cabinet saw (either sawstop or regular) is plenty enough saw for any hobbiest woodworker. Something to keep in mind if you start thinking, well gee, a 5 HP is only $XXX more, and for $XXX more I can get XXXXX. At least I need to keep reminding my self that:)
Marginally ?
Hey HM -
[Specifically the question referred to voltage] - I went from a 110 craftsman to the 3 hp unisaw. I know fence, arbor, table, is very important but the added power is the difference between night and day going from 110 to 220. When you put a carbide tooth blade on a 110 saw and rip 6 quarter oak the fence, arbor, or steel table isn't powering the saw .
I like your idea about the saw stop to protect the young woodworkers in the family but this site has often gone back and forth on the point of - teaching high end woodworking skill is more important than saw stop because you can't put sawstop on every tool - and every woodworking process.
Buy the 220 saw Paisan - no doubt here whatsoever !
SA
110 vs 200 saw
Thanks Westchester!
The performance jump is from the HP, mass, and better design and quality, not necessarily the volts going in. It is just that to get that jump, you basically need 240V power because no one makes a 3HP saw with a 120V motor. I know, it is mostly semantics:)
Going with a sawstop has 3 reasons behind it for me. The first is that a lot of people use my shop, and they are of varying skill. The right answer is that I would always watch the saw and only skilled enough people would use it (how do you know if they are safe and sane before they use it!), but realistically that isn't always possible. A den of cub scouts building pinewood cars in the shop is chaotic to say the least, and sometimes the parents are worse than the scouts with reagrds to safety.
The second reason is watching my oldest starting to use the table saw with the emergency room a 20 minute drive away is taking years off of my life. Additionally, my father's reaction times have not improved with age, and mine are getting closer to that path as well.
The last, and most important reason, is that the only way I can convince my wife that I need a new table saw is by pointing out the two reasons above and showing her the sawstop video:)
Semantics
Hey HM -
I agree with all you say 100% your understanding of woodworking + machinery is expert ! - but you failed to advise poster a direct answer to his question - tell him to go with 220 and I'll shut up.
Saw stop (in my opinion) isn't the cure all. I rather see young woodworkers develop respect and an acute skill for all the tasks associated with this craft rather than giving them the false feeling they can't get hurt. Saw stop isn't everywhere.
If your Mrs. is reading this post - I just saved the family at least $ 3000.00; and hereby instruct the craftsman in the family to provide advanced training for the young members to use all the tools in the shop safely.
SA
Semantics and thanks
Hi,
Thanks for the compliment WC!
Actually I intentionally didn't give a direct answer because it wasn't clear what the saw was going to be used for. It wouldn't feel responsible to tell someone to get a 3HP saw if they just made birdhouses out of cedar or made pen blanks for turning. Not that it wouldn't be nice to hear that surge of power when the saw started up each time:)
However if the question was "I am fed up with dimming lights and tripping breakers and stalling on 8/4 oak, live in PA and have $2500 ready to put into a saw" I would have said "Tell the wife you are going out for a few hours, call a good electrician, jump into the truck and drive to Grizzly for a 3HP cabinet"
Defintely sawstop is not a cure all. Ironically only one of my worst 3 tool injuries was from a running tool, a stationary belt sander of all things. I broke a finger and ground off 3 nails on my left hand. It was also the result of impatience and stupidity on the part of someone who should have and did know better (me), but those things happen. For the record, the other two were: nasty cut popping a 1 1/4 drill bit out of a #3 to #4 MT adapter (caught my pinky between a flute and the bench while hitting the drift) and catching the meaty part of the thumb on the tool while pulling a part out of a (stopped) south bend lathe. Again, I know better to have sustained any of these, but it happens.
I am training the youngin's best I can. The 9 year old can carve his name into pine/basswood, the 15 year old is terrfied of the sawstop in his shop class (or maybe the wrath of the shop teacher if someone trips it off), and the 6 year old knows to leave the chisels alone. He does like the brace and bit and the coping saw though. They all do know, though, that there is no end to the ways to get hurt in a shop, regardless of the tool being used.
I Agree
HM -
Your description of those injuries hit home to every person reading this thread. It could happen to any of us. My worst was stabbing through a nerve in my index finger with a chisel and loosing feeling on one side of the finger. The Dr said the nerve on the other side would take over in time. He was right - I could have had the micro surgery but didn't think it was worth it. That was 30 years ago. I believe that injury formed me into a very careful tradesman. Haven't been hurt since except for loosing a little skin on a grinding wheel. Anyway - I don't like saw stop - not because it doesn't work - it does - but the idea you can't get hurt on the table saw may make young folks loose focus. These saws can throw wood back at you or shoot stuff into your face - and the brake won't make a difference. Push sticks, eye protection, and your guidance will give the boys what they need - saw stop can't do that.
SA
Table saw 110 vs 220
Thanks guys for the input, much appreciated. I'll either go new or used - if I can find used saws somewhere here in southeastern PA. and at a decent price I'll go with a used saw.
I've been getting along all these years with my 20+ year old Delta 1 HP (I think) but have recently been making a thick (1 3/4") end grain cutting board and the saw can do it but just barely and it scares me. For thick things I usually do several passes on the saw, each time increasing the height or flipping the piece over to cut it free. That however leaves a saw-marked side that I have to remedy with another step either a hand plane or jointer. I'd rather just have one go at it thru and thru and be done with it.
Understanding dual voltage 120/240 volt motors is prefaced by an understanding of how electricity is delivered to a house. Coming in from the pole are three wires consisting of two 120 wires and a common. Voltage measured across the two 120 volt wires will read 240 volts while the voltage read between either 120 volt wire and common will read 120 volts.
All convertable 120/240 motors run on 120 volts internally. There are two coils each running 120 volts and using 1/2 the 120 volt amperage (The coils act as a resistance and split the amperage). All you do when you re-wire the motor to run on 240 is change the wiring connecting of the coils from parallel to series. When wired for 240 volt operation, one 120 volt leg and its associated amperage is routed to each individual coil rather than a single 120 volt line providing 120 volts to both coils. The same voltage and amperage runs through the individual coils no matter how it it wired. It is amperage that creates heat, and because the amperage in each coil is the same for both wiring configuations, there is no difference in the heat produced by either wiring configuation. The motor is perfectly happy with either voltage and doesn't even know you made the change.
The only advantage to re-wiring for 240 is that it reduces the amperage in shop wiring running from the breaker to the wall outlet. This means that the voltage drop in the wiring is lessened. If your wiring is properly sized for the amperage and run length, voltage drop will be minimal and well within the operation range of any good motor. Voltage drop will be almost equal if the wire size is the required size for each different motor amperage. Only if your wiring is inadequate for the higher amperage of 120 volts will the motor run better when you convert it to 240. In this case, upgrading the 120 volt wiring one size and making it a dedicated curcuit, will accomplish the same as installing a 240 volt circuit and wiring the motor for 240.
If a motor coming up to speed very slowly or is tripping a breaker during start up or when under normal load, you either have other loads on the circuit, or the circuit is undersized for the amperage or the run length. The fixes are: remove the other loads from the circuit or upgrade the circuit. To upgrade the circuit, either rewire with heavier wire and a larger 120 volt breaker, or convert the circuit to 240 volts which has the affect of lowering the wiring amperage draw. Either of these solutions will equally fix the problem. Again, the motor doesn't care and won't perform differently as long as it gets clean power.
Then why?.....
Hi Howie,
I have read on multiple forums from several knowlegable folks like yourself that all seem to agree there is no appreciable advantage to 220 over 110 except over very long distances from the panel. Some have said that the motor and wire will stay cooler and therefore last longer. You seem to refute that claim. Can you explain to me why then it is that most tool manufacturers seem to offer higher horsepower tools (3hp and up) prewired for 240 and only the smalle 1hp and under tools in 110?
I am looking at Powematic Tablesaws and I have already wired my new shop with several 220 dedicated circuits. I have since decided that the 1-HP PM 1000 which comes prewired in 110 but can be converted to 220 is enough. The 3 HP is more expensive and takes up more room in my 14' x 20' shop. Had I done more research beforehand I might have eliminated a couple of the 220's and gone with a smaller panel. I have a 100 amp sub panel and I have one dedicated 220 for dust collection, one dedicated 220 for a table saw, one dedicated 220 for an electric heater (perhaps future heat pump) and one 220 circuit with two outlets, one of which will be for a band saw. I got some 10-3 Romex for free which was enough for all but one of those. The remaining 220 circuit is 12-3. It sounds like all of these are oversized since 220 allows using smaller gauge wire. So, my ship has sailed and I'm fine with what I have. I'm just wondering if there is any advantage to what I have or if I am just a typical overzealous ameture. I figured going in that since most of the proffesional grade tools were prewired for 220 there must be some advantage.
Thanks!
Touzj
ahh the 220 question
Ok really there is two questions there you have posed. First how much hp necessary for a shop, and two is 220 better than 110. First voltage is simply wattage / amps. if someting is 20 amps at 110 it is simply 10Amps at 220. Power draw is 2 legs at 110 10amps .vs. 1 leg pulling all 20 amps. Heat will be the issue and cost of copper to haul it. I have a great article that puts it all in laymens terms and will help you understand why 220 is better. Send me a PM and I will send you the pdf.
Now for your real question. Power and by that I mean HP. At a minimum 3hp. There are 1.75 hp machines on 110 out there and they will cut stuff, but trust me as someone who's been around the block and had a couple of them, they will bog down and if you cut only small thin stuff then ok, but if you need to do the bigger stuff, you have to go real slow or you will pop a breaker regularly or it will heat up. Just not worth it. I've had a 3hp 220 saw for a very long time now and not one trip and with a good blade will cut through most stuff like butter. I'm hoping to upgrade to a 5hp 3 phase in the future (thats a whole diff topic). Anyway 3hp min (IMHO) and if you want the article on 220.vs.110 shoot me a PM. I'll send it. Take care.
Great Info. Thanks Very Much. I will PM you for that article.
Not to put too fine of a point on it but my specific question is why do Tool manufacturers offer thier larger tools prewired for 240 if there is no advantage to it?
Thanks again,
Touzj
P = V x I
Power equals Voltage times current. If you keep the voltage constant, to increase the power of a motor it will need bigger section wires everywhere to allow more current. Eventually it becomes too expensive and maybe even impossible to keep increasing wire sizes. To make things worse there is something called skin effect which makes the relationship between cable section and current non-linear, so twice the section will allow for less than twice the current. In short, past a certain power the smart solution is to increase the voltage. For under 2HP motors it's not a big deal but when you get into 3HP or 5HP you'll need more voltage.
I have a 1.75 HP table saw but I got myself a dedicated 20Amp circuit I don't share with anything else. The only time the motor bogged was once I tried to rip a 3.5 inch thick board with a 90 teeth blade. Not my brightest moment. I've learned and I now have a 24 teeth blade with big gullets. It hasn't bogged on me anymore.
I have a 3HP and a 1.75 HP saw. Same brand (Jet).
All things equal, no way I can run wood through the small one like the big one. And some operations like mitered rip cuts in hardwood really show the difference.
Thin kerf blades are a good idea for saws under 2 HP. Don’t forget blade stabilizers.
The cost & work of running a 240v circuit may or may not be worth it you’ll have to decide that.
But that has nothing to do with voltage. One motor has almost twice the horsepower as the other. You could likely rewire the smaller motor to 240v -- I did on my contractor saw. But it won't make it cut better.
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