Replies

1. 
   ownersrep | Nov 12, 2003 12:09am | #1

   Sicilian,

   One of the recent WW magazines did a review, but I don't remember which one.  It was within the last six months. The way I remember it, the Forrest came out the best (but also the most expensive). 

   I have the better Oldham and it does fine for the little I've used it.  But if I had to do it again I'd buy the Forrest.  It's not that much more expensive for a one time purchase and the dados in the review were much flatter bottomed than from any of the other brands.

   Just my 2 cents,

   Jim

2. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 12, 2003 12:22am | #2

   Sicilian,

   I like my Forrest. Does anyone know of a source for magnetic shims?

   Paul

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
3. 
   user-5880422 | Nov 12, 2003 01:34am | #3

   the new Dial-a-width dado set from Freud is sweeeet. If I didn't already have a SD508, I think I would get one of the dial-a-widths.

   the Forrest blades are nice, but the extra cost for a negligible improvement in cut quality just doesn't make it such a good value for me. Okay, everyone in the Forrest Cult take a deep breath... we all know that they are the most superior blades in the universe.

   I have another dado set for rough work, a Systimatic with 2 wing chippers. It's actually good for almost everything, I save my freud set for when it really counts. I'd recomend this strategy because it costs so frickin much to have a dado set sharpened.

   Tenryu also has a super nice 2 wing set, I've had great results with their blades but have never tried the dado set.

4. 
   IanC | Nov 12, 2003 03:30am | #4

   Yes, the cost of sharpening is something to consider so a less expensive set may be false economy.  My 10 year old Systimatic Fine Cut set has never been sharpened and continues to do good work.  I keep the teeth clean and stack (store) them carefully so that teeth don't touch other teeth. 

5. 
   Manchild | Nov 12, 2003 05:48am | #5

   One thing I'd look for is less rake in the teeth. Especially the outside ones. That way they have less tendency to lift out fibers on the sides of the dato.

6. 
   TomFerreira | Nov 12, 2003 06:12am | #6

   I have a Systimatic Superfine dado set which came with a set of magnetic shims. It has six tooth cutters with forty tooth outer blades. It's the best I've seen but pricey...$269 I think is what I paid a couple of years ago.

   TDF

1. 
   Manchild | Nov 12, 2003 06:55pm | #9

   I have the Systematic also. does yours have a negitive rake on the outside teeth?

1. 
   Sancho | Nov 12, 2003 08:29pm | #10

   Gumba,

   I use a delta dado blade. Never had a problem with it gives me flat bottomed joints. Im happy with it. Used the heck outta it and just got it sharpened. My pal Shady has a systematic. It does a good job also but to tell ya the truth I couldnt find a difference in the cut. mine was flat his was flat. Mine cost about 100 bucks his cost about 265 bucks. He did have nice shims that came with it though. But for a 165 bucks more..give me the delta. 

   Darkworksite4:

   Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN

2. 
   TomFerreira | Nov 13, 2003 04:40am | #15

   No David it does not.

   TDF

7. 
   HowardAcheson | Nov 12, 2003 05:22pm | #7

   First, I would be careful using the info you supplied about the Forrest. That accolade is over 10 years old.

   The have been many magazine tests of dados since that one. Many of the best performing dados now rivil the Forrest for less money. They also use negative hook angles to produce better cuts in problem materials like cross-grain oak veneer and melamine.

   If anyone is interested in a comparison of dado blades, look back through the past couple of years of Popular Woodworking and Wood Magazine. Wood had a large test in the past year. I believe there may also be some tests in Fine Woodworking.

   Personally, my next dado will be the recently re-introduced Freud SD608 "Dial-A-Width". It is essentially their top rated and top of the line SD508 with an adjustable hub the eliminates the need for shims. With the great variation in plywood these days, that is a big benefit.

   There are many good dado's out there these days.

1. 
   Sicilian | Nov 14, 2003 03:15am | #25

   Howie,

   See that goes to show that the Forrest Blade has withstood the test of time.  12 years later and it is still one of the best dado sets on the market.  The question is why has everyone else taken so long to catch up?

   What dado set are you using today?

   The Sicilian

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Nov 14, 2003 04:50am | #26

   Two things,

   First the chart you published is the copyright property of Wood Magazine and should probably be pulled by this boards webmaster. You didn't even provide attribution. You should have just referred to it by link.

   Second, I have two dados. One is an SD308 Freud Safety dado the second is the $85 Freud SD208. The latter I picked up on sale when I had my other dado out for sharpening. The newly sharpened SD308 hasn't been on the saw since I got the SD208. As many reviews have stated, the SD208 is outstanding and the best bargain out there.

2. 
   logsend | Nov 14, 2003 07:16pm | #27

   I haven't seen anyone mention RCT's dado-set:  http://www.ridgecarbidetool.com/html/dado_northwoods.htm

   Ridge Carbide Tools makes blades as good as Forrest.  Ridge was started by and is run by folks who left Forrest I believe.  Their blades get good press and the one I have used worked very well.  Just my opinion anyway...

   Randy

1. 
   Sicilian | Nov 14, 2003 07:50pm | #28

   When a company refers to "flat bottomed cuts" to that also include square shoulders?  I think for even for appearance purposes nothing is more annoying than the little "V" groove inside each corner of the dado.  I my mind a top of the line dado set has to also cut square shoulders in addition to flat bottomed cuts. 

   I am also used to machine shop tolerences so when you look at the dado chart from an earlier post notice the actual width of each groove cut.  If these tolerences were for building space shuttle parts we would never make it off the launch pad. 

   I know, I know, this is only woodworking but 1/64 is about .016 and for some people that may be a lot of slack.

   The Sicilian

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Nov 15, 2003 03:12am | #29

   In order to cleanly cut the surface of the wood, the outside cutters must have some amount of additional diameter. Some have more than others. It would by like trying to cross cut with a flat top ripping blade. To eliminate it entirely, would produce poor cuts in materials like hardwood veneer plywood and melamine. To cut cleanly, the outside tooth must have some type of point on it.

   Like everything, there are compromizes to accomplish certain ends.

   Edited 11/15/2003 9:58:05 AM ET by Howie

8. 
   PeterDurand | Nov 12, 2003 06:36pm | #8

   I have used an older model of the Freud 608 (Dial type) for many years. They had discontinued it for a number of years due to some lawsuit. When I was enquiring about it at wood shows, the Freud reps would always offer to buy it from me for the price I had paid for it. Glad to see its on the market again.

   Cheers,

   Peter

   I am at the age where food has taken the place of sex in my life. In fact, I've just had a mirror put over my kitchen table  -  Rodney Dangerfield

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Nov 13, 2003 07:18am | #17

   The reason Freud discontinued the dial adjustable SD608 was that they made major changes to their manufacturing line and equipment. They focused first on getting their standard blades and dados fully up to speed. Once they were satisfied with that, they then began production again of the SD608. It apparently requires some very complex production processes.

   Two years ago it won accolades in one of the magazine tests as fully the equal of any other dado. With today's variable thickness plywood, it will be my choice when I upgrade.

1. 
   charlesm | Nov 13, 2003 05:13pm | #18

   Howie,

   Thanks for clearing that up. Also, there was no lawsuit and the current design of the SD600 series is identical to the ones produced earlier.

   Charles M

   Freud, Inc.

1. 
   Robbie | Nov 13, 2003 05:41pm | #19

   Have only ever owned a Forrest and it works just fine.   Have not used any other so cannot add any comparative comments. 

   Have not ever used a Freud blade, period.  But would be interested in doing so at some time in the future.  Forestgirl has said good things about Forrest blades

   Bob

1. 
   Sicilian | Nov 14, 2003 03:01am | #24

   Here is some more info on some dado blade specifications that was posted at Wood Magazine's web site.  A full review was done in its September 2003 issue.  Sorry its takes up a lot of space but I believe the truth is in the details.  Also some other dado sets have been included such as Amana, Avenger, CMT, Delta, Jesada, and Lee Valley.  Notice the only sets made in the USA are the Forrest and Systimatic.

   HOW TODAY'S 8" DADO SETS STACKED UPTo view photo of product, click on underlined model number. Photos of all models are not available.

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   View Image

   AMANA

   658030-AK

   24

   Y

   POS

   Y

   2

   N

   P

   .251, .509, .763

   L

   IS

   $150

   6"/$120

   800/445-0077, http://www.amanatool.com

   658040

   46

   Y

   NEG

   N

   2

   N

   P

   .251, .510, .755

   L

   IS

   190

    

   AVENGER

   10026

   42

   N

   POS

   N

   6

   N

   B

   .258, .499, .745

   L

   CH

   100

    

   805/983-0039, http://www.avengerproducts.com

   10031

   30

   N

   POS

   N

   5

   Y

   B

   .259, .478, .708

   L

   CH

   50

   6"/$40

   CMT

   230.024.08

   24

   N

   NEG

   Y

   4

   Y

   P

   .256, .499, .737

   L

   IT

   190

   6"/$180

   888/268-2487, http://www.cmtusa.com

   DELTA

   35-535

   24

   N

   POS

   Y

   2

   N

   C

   .245, .508, .759

   2 yr.

   NZ

   100

   6"/$90

   800/438-2486, http://www.deltamachinery.com

   FORREST

   Dado King

   24

   Y

   NEG

   N

   4

   Y

   M

   .244, .488, .735

   30D,L

   US

   260

   6"/$245

   800/733/7111, stores.yahoo.com/forrestman

   FREUD

   SD208

   12

   N

   NEG

   Y

   2

   N

   T

   .234, .494, .737

   L

   IT

   95

   6"/$85

   800/472-7307, http://www.freudtools.com

   SD508

   24

   N

   NEG

   Y

   4

   Y

   T

   .245, .499, .753

   L

   IT

   200

   6"/$185

   SD608

   24

   N

   NEG

   Y

   4

   Y

   N/A

   N/A

   L

   IT

   300

   6"/$290

   JESADA

   108-240S

   24

   N

   NEG

   Y

   4

   Y

   P

   .268, .492, .738

   L

   IT

   180

   6"/$140

   800/531-5559, http://www.jesada.com

   LEE VALLEY

   15W01.04

   24

   Y

   POS

   Y

   2

   N

   P

   .251, .512, .766

   90D,L

   IS

   140

   6"/$115

   800/871-8158, http://www.leevalley.com

   15W02.02

   46

   Y

   NEG

   N

   2

   N

   P

   .254, .509, .755

   90D,L

   IS

   150

    

   SYSTI-MATIC

   37155

   22

   N

   POS

   N

   2

   N

   N

   .274, .504, .769

   1 yr.

   US

   130

   6"/$120

   800/426-0035, http://www.systimatic.com

   37160

   42

   N

   POS

   N

   6

   N

   N

   .261, .508, .767

   1 yr.

   US

   240

   6"/$280

   NOTES:

   1.

   (B)

   Brass

    

   (C)

   Cardstock

    

   (M)

   Magnetic

    

   (N)

   Non provided

    

   (N/A)

   Shimless design

    

   (P)

   Plastic

    

   (T)

   Tempered steel

   2.

   Red numbers indicate undersize cuts, which can be shimmed to the full width. Oversize cuts require removing a chipper and adding lots of shims.

    

   3.

   (30D) 30-day return policy. (90D) 90-day return policy. (L) Lifetime warranty against factory defects.

    

   4.

   (CH

   China

    

    

   (IS)

   Israel

    

    

   (IT)

   Italy

    

    

   (NZ)

   New Zealand

    

    

   (US)

   United States

    

    

   5.

   Prices current at time of article's production and do not include shipping, where applicable.

   Thanks,

   The Sicilian

   Edited 11/14/2003 10:30:10 AM ET by The Sicilian

2. 
   PeterDurand | Nov 13, 2003 07:54pm | #20

   Sorry about that. I was just repeating what your wood show reps told me.I am at the age where food has taken the place of sex in my life. In fact, I've just had a mirror put over my kitchen table  -  Rodney Dangerfield

1. 
   charlesm | Nov 13, 2003 08:09pm | #21

   No problem. The rep probably believed what he was telling you. It's amazing to me that bad information can spread faster than good.

   Charles M

   Freud, Inc.

2. 
   PeterDurand | Nov 13, 2003 08:25pm | #22

   Perhaps bad info, but a damn good product. I am glad to see it back on the market.

   Cheers,

   PeterI am at the age where food has taken the place of sex in my life. In fact, I've just had a mirror put over my kitchen table  -  Rodney Dangerfield

3. 
   Sicilian | Nov 19, 2003 06:30pm | #30

   Charles,

   Looking at your signature I see that you work for Freud.  I would be interested in some more info on the the Dial a Width Dado Set SD608.  First if you could share a little past history on the SD608.  I find it hard to believe that such an innovation that would eliminate shims and provide a more accurate cut would be discontinued due to upgrading of the manufacturing process. 

   I am skepical by nature, and have worked in manufacturing, and to my knowledge usually most products are discontinued due to lack of sales, product defects, or upgrades in the product itself.  Since there was no lawsuit involved and the original design remained indentically intact, why would the change in manufacturing process halt the production of an exclusive product for years? 

   I also would like to know more detail about the accuracy of cut the SD608 provides.  Spending over $200 on a Dado Set for me requires some solid proof that I am getting my moneys worth now and for years to come. I would appreciate any info you can provide. 

   I am always interested in fine Italian products.

   Thanks,

   The Sicilian  

1. 
   charlesm | Nov 19, 2003 07:54pm | #31

   I appreciate your skepticism as I am also a born skeptic. "Discontinued" is not an accurate description of the disposition of the dado during the time it wasn't offered. "Temporarily out of production" fits better. The Dial-A-Width dado was originally made partially "by hand" and many of those processes were automated in the new factory. This required new tooling and programming which translates to time and money and it had to be fit in with the production scheduling.

   I'm not clear on what you are asking here:

   "more detail about the accuracy of cut"

   Charles M

   Freud, Inc.

2. 
   Scarecrow | Nov 20, 2003 10:09am | #32

   I use the CMT set, couldn't be happier,  I switched fro the Delta which compared to the CMT was junk.

   "in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king..."

3. 
   Sicilian | Nov 20, 2003 06:06pm | #34

   Thanks for your reply Charles,

   How long was the SD608 out of production for?  My skepticism would next ask why would a product that offered such precise setup and cutting accuracy be basically put on the shelf while the manufacturing process was fully automated?  Why was the SD608's  production run not continued up to the point that automated machining was fully on line?  If you have a exclussive product that could possibly change the way setup is completed on the dado set, why in the world would you stop production until the process was fully automated?

   I must admit, in anticipation of your reply, my thoughts are that there was either a flaw in the original design, or accuracy limitations in the production of the SD608.  You have already stated that there was no trademark problems.

   As far a my request for accuracy results, I am looking for any internal studies or any external reviews on the quality of cut (flat bottomed grooves, square shoulders, no tearout)  and the actual accuracy of the width of cut as "dialed in by the hub" ie.. if I am dialing  a 3/8" more is that what I am getting.

   Are all the components of the SD608 made entirely in Italy as one other member asked?

   I would love to try one out if want to send me a set for review! Anyways thanks for your input to our forum as any information is of great value to the purchase and reputation of a companys product.

   Thanks,

   The Sicilian

4. 
   charlesm | Nov 20, 2003 08:13pm | #37

   I would have to research the exact amount of time but it was several years. I am not privy to the reasoning behind decisions like these as they come from much higher up the food chain but I am familiar with the construction of the set and it has not been altered from the original in any way other than the color.

   Several magazines are testing these in upcoming issues and the Wood Magazine that you posted the chart from has some info. Perhaps an explanation of the way this dado functions will answer your questions. This is a true stacked dado and, as such, you stack blades to get close to the size you want without going over. In a standard stacked dado set you would use shims between the blades to fine tune the width. With this set you have a dial in the outer blade that controls a threaded "plunger" that provides the spacing necessary to acheive the desired width. The threads are 1.0 mm pitch so each full rotation of the dial changes the spacing by 1.0mm. There are 10 detents in the dial so each "click" changes the space by 0.1mm (0.003937") and the arbor nut can be locked at any point so adjustment is technically infinite. The smallest chipper is 3/32" so the hub adjusts over a range of 25 clicks (2.5mm, 0.0984" or just over 3/32"). The manual includes instructions for setting up many nominal sizes including the number of clicks required and these are repeatable with great accuracy but don't expect them to result in the exact stated measurements. Different components in the set are manufactured to differing tolerances so I can't state an overall tolerance for variance in width but it will be within a few thousandths of an inch without going over.

   HTH,

   Charles M

   Freud, Inc.

5. 
   Sicilian | Nov 21, 2003 05:39pm | #38

   Charles,

   What is the kerf of the inside and outside dado blades for the SD608? 

   Which magazines will be doing tests and reviews for dado sets, including the SD608?

   Does Freud do sharpenings for this set and how much do they charge?

   Thanks,

   The Sicilian

6. 
   charlesm | Nov 21, 2003 07:11pm | #39

   The kerf of the combined outer blades with the hub dialed all the way out is 1/4".

   I will try to find out who is featuring this and when and I'll Email the info to you (I wouldn't want to promote a publication that is in competition with our gracious hosts FWW).

   Freud does not offer a sharpening service but any quality modern sharpener should be able to service this set. If you have problems locating a sharpener that can do this we can put you in touch with one.

   Charles M

   Freud, Inc.

7. 
   Scrit | Nov 20, 2003 03:36pm | #33

   Then could we also ask Charles to answer how much of Freud's production is done in China nowadays. I have been told that Freud now cuts and machines blades and other stuff there before shipping back to Italy for tipping and finishing. Is this true?

   Scrit

8. 
   charlesm | Nov 20, 2003 06:10pm | #35

   I can't imagine where you would have heard that. We make our own carbide in our own foundry, we buy top quality German steel, we have robotic lasers that cut the blades from the steel at incredible speeds, automated flattening and tensioning machines, automated brazing machines and grinders and our own coating facilities. All of this is in Italy where we have total control over quality. Perhaps you are confusing Freud with one of our competitors who admit that their Forstner bits come from China but claim that they grind them Italy so they can label as "Made in Italy".

   Charles M

   Freud, Inc.

9. 
   Scrit | Nov 20, 2003 06:39pm | #36

   Charles

   Thank you for putting my mind at rest on that one. What they said was that Ftreud were making the laser-cut plates in the Far East then shipping them to Italy for tipping and finishing (with Italian carbide). I had given this "fact" by one of your competitors at the UK trade WW show (Woodmex) last year and in view of the fact that Altendorf were being very coy at the time about their new low-cost panel saw being built in China I had wondered how true it was (important to me as I am a continuing Altendorf user). Certainly something to bear in mind when I do my next buying round of saw blades in the Spring.

   Scrit

   Edited 11/20/2003 10:47:20 AM ET by Scrit

2. 
   PelhamPete | Nov 13, 2003 10:31pm | #23

   Hi all,

   I was in the market for a dado set a few months ago, and I queried this forum for which set to go with.  One gentleman, whose amazing work had JUST been featured on, if memory serves, the back cover of Fine Woodworking Magazine, said that he absolutely thought that the Jesada JointMaster ($ 179.00) was THE set to go with ... that was enough for me- I bought it the next day.  As I have no experience with competing companies offerings, I can say anything about its relative quality, so I'm'a'gonna'zip ma'lip. :-)

   Interestingly- I think he also said that he tosses (sells?) the entire set after just a one or two jobs ... apparently he never sharpens them.   I think I understand the thinking- after you touch the side of the tooth with a sharpening stone/whatever, you alter its width.  Obviously, this can cause a lot of problems.

   -Peter T.

9. 
   ChipTam | Nov 12, 2003 09:26pm | #11

   I picked up my dado blade set from a cabinet shop that was going out of business 15  years ago.  It was almost a double set but the holes were for a 1" arbor......probably the reason I got the set for $15.  Spent $40 to get the set re-bushed for a 5/8" arbor.  It's a wonderful old set.  No name on it.  At this point, there isn't all that much carbide left on the teeth.....perhaps a couple more sharpenings.  I'll be sorry when this set finally goes.

   Chip 

1. 
   Elcoholic | Nov 13, 2003 12:05am | #12

   CMT fine w/ 4 blade chippers and included plastic shims - no complaintsJohn O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

10. 
    Andrew | Nov 13, 2003 12:40am | #13

    Right now I use a Freud Saftey Dado set because it came with my saw and it does a fine job, but when I get a new set it will be FS Tool. Dimar would be a close second.

11. 
    musick | Nov 13, 2003 04:20am | #14

    A few mentioned the old/new again freud design. Has the dial in advantage of a wobble blade but the benefit of square/flat dados.

    Also you should look at the new Felder dado. It uses indexed, replaced carbide inserts. It is built much heavier than all other dado styles I've seen. If it is any thing like most of Felders other equipment then you most likely won't be dissappointed. I believe cost is comparable to a forrest and it uses shims for spacers just like most leading dado sets here.

    Seems to me one of these newer styles would be the way to go.

12. 
    CL | Nov 13, 2003 06:02am | #16

    Just thought I would mention my Jesada dado set. I bought it on sale and remember thinking it was an outstanding value. Makes beutiful chip free cuts. Check it out.

13. 
    MajorWool | Nov 22, 2003 01:08pm | #40

    What about cutting tenons in hardwoods with a dado blade? Would a 12 tooth setup do an adequate job, or would one need a 24 tooth set (8")? For me, it would be the difference between the $70 Freud professional set or the $160 Super set. It would be on a 3HP cabinet saw if that makes a difference.