I’m planning on doing some sclupted chair joinery and ordered the #49 nicholson rasp from rockler. It arrived today and I took it out of the box . . . At first glance it seemed very thin and light. I sighted down it . . . it wasn’t quite straight, either (maybe this isn’t too big of a deal with rasps–you tell me). So, without really thinking about it I tried to straighten it out a little using bare hand preassure alone, not even a bearing surface. I don’t know if I thought this method would do much, but I knew I wasn’t going to whack on it with a mallet. On the second try, the last three inches of it snapped right off! No warning! I guess I am pretty strong, but still . . . it was like glass breaking! My other, ‘cosumer’ grade rasp is much thicker and I couldn’t imagine breaking it with my bare hands. Am I missing something here? I’m going to return it as ‘defective’.
So I’m asking for recommendations of a more durable rasp. Maybe I ought to stick with cheap ones and just replace them once in a while. I’m also open to non-traditional alternatives. Doesn’t Maloof use the surform? What about the Microplane? Aggressive stock removal even on tight inside curves in the main goal, a smooth surface in secondary. I have the lancelot but it seems a little TOO agressive for some things and there are places where it just won’t go.
Brian
Replies
I've had very good luck with Pferd rasps and files. Here's a link.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
Jack London
I find the stair makers rasp especially useful.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
Jack London
Brian, I would contact Rockler or Nicholson. I have both the 49 and 50 and haven't had a problem (granted I have not used them much). They are fairly thin, but they are kind of flexible which I found very nice while shaping cabriole legs. This is an admittedly uninformed opinion, but I wonder if your rasp had some sort of tempering problem which made the steel brittle.
Brent
You might still find an Auriou in stock (French company) somewhere. Lee Valley and many others used to carry them. Handmade, beautiful and wonderful pieces but they went out of business a while back due to labor issues. They are rumored to start up again, but no luck yet.
Good luck
Brian, sounds like you received a bad one. I have a 49 and 52 as well s some of the others mentioned and use them quite often. Maybe the newer ones have declined in quality, would not be surprised. Maloof's favorite tool is the 49.
It would be nice if you did not have to order them, I think it would be quite funny to see someone snapping files in half with their bare hands while the sales person is checking them out.
As for shaping chair joints, a 49 or Aurio cabinet makers rasp are ideal. That stairmakers rasp Dgreen mentioned is very nice, I especially like the fine side of it for cleaning up the joints around short grain.
May I also suggest some spoke shaves as well , I just finished one of two three legged end tables with sculpted legs and used all of the above tools, Most enjoyable.
Good luck Tom
Okay. Brian did the wrong thing. But that's only the third time in 32 years. I'm new to rasps and this has been a quick education. I don't think I'll keep the broken one just to scold myself, though. There is still a part of me that believes that the rasp was poorly designed as regards durability (maybe this is simply the price paid for a thin profile). I would think they could leave at least a little durable metal in the shaft while hardenning the teeth. I think my next step will be to experiment with the alternatives.Brian
Hah, that's because a part of you desires to cling to "it's a faulty tool."
I wouldn't keep the shorter piece to remind myself of anything. I would keep it because a shorter rasp and or file has come in handy to me in the past and I have intentionally broke them before. Heck, I've also ground them into different shapes at the broken ends.
Th notion of only case hardened teeth on such a thin rasp profile isn't a sound one. The rasp would exhibit other issues. There really is nothing wrong with the design. Nicholson, Heller, Grobet et al have been making rasps for well over 100 years-and in the later casses, a couple hundred. I think they have it down pretty well.
I use a lot of various rasps and files every day. I wouldn't mention it out of theory.
Take care, Mike
A Couple of comments relevant to subjects brought up in the thread:
There was a report on the thread about saw filing that Nicholson had moved at least some production to Mexico, and the pictured files showed a marked contrast in quality between the US and Mexico manufactured tools. It's possible this has also been the case with the #49 and #50 rasps, and the new factory is having difficulties with hardening the steel (that's really common - correctly hardening and tempering is not easy to produce uniform results).
Regarding sharpening of rasps - Cirtic acid (as well as the more aggressive phosphoric acid) treatments will not actually sharpen an edge. What I suspect is occurring is that the citric acid is loosening a surface layer of amalgamated wood resin, rasping dust, and possibly corrosion. The cleaned rasp appears sharper because (microscopically) the edge is no longer occluded with this junk. What Bogg's tools does is true sharpening. It's a variation of the latest steel cutting technology - so-called "water-jet cutting". In this technique, water is not actually doing the cutting, it's a carrier for a very fine abrasive which abrades away the steel under tremendous pressure. Boggs has adapted this liquid abrasive technology to sharpen tools that were previously un-sharpenable. Very clever.
There is a way to clean a rasp in a quick and efficient manner at home by burning off the accumulated resin and dust. Simply wet down the rasp with denatured alcohol, light it, and let it burn off (obviously, do this outside). Subsequent cleaning with a fiber-based file card will remove the ash. I do this fairly regularly, and it works quite well. The ethanol burns at a low enough temperature to prevent messing with the hardness/temper of a wood rasp or file.
To the original poster - While Aurious are no longer available, and it's questionable as to whether the purchasers of the liquidated company will produce rasps, what their quality will be, and what range of forms, coarseness and sizes will be produced, you can still pick them up on e-bay for a premium. A somewhat less expensive alternative is the Grammercy rasps from http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com. I've got one, and while not quite as good as the Aurious, they are pretty good tools.
Auriou is back working, but not yet back in the market. Just an fyi.
Acid does sharpen. Doesn't matter what kind of acid, it all works. This is one of the processes Bogg's has used--just how long do you think abrasive liquid honing machines have been around? And like mentioned, has been used in one form or another for centuries.
Acid etches away the metal. It is a bit slower on the body than the teeth, which is the reason why one needs to check in on the progress. It does bring the teeth to a sharp state. One does need to clean the residue off periodically as it forms thicker on the body than the tooth tips. Which means one can competely remove the teeth if a rasp or file is forgotten in the acid. This I know really well.
There are dozens of old metalurgy, manufacturing and even some hobbyist books which describe the process and effects. It was once common to recommend sulferic acid with a specific gravity of 1.25 (battery acid is typically 1.6x).
You can sharpen for years. A rasp or file can be sharpened down to where it becomes so thin it is pretty darn flexible and still have great cutting teeth.
There are all sorts of rasps available on the market that the OP can find to purchase. Joel's are one such source. Lee Valley carries others and are just as easily obtained. DiLegno also has an assortment, Shor International, most all the internet jewelry supply sources, etc.
fwiw, I find absolutely no difference in a Nicholson pattern maker's rasp purchased ecently to one purchased 30 years ago. They both came not as sharp as they could be. But, a little acid soak cures that...
Take care, Mike
Quite right. Acid sharpens, by etching away part of the blunted edge. You get a slightly smaller but sharper tooth. Same concept as chemically sharpened fish hooks.Joe
Where does one get citric acid and does vinegar work? Regular vinegar is 5% acetic acid. How does that compare?Adam
Hi Adam,
Any place selling beer brewing/wine making supplies carries it. Several places online sell it.
But yes, vinegar also works, albeit slower. When I tried vinegar for a while just to see if it really worked, after the initial longer soak to renew the tips, every weekend I would clean the rasps and files used during the week and let them soak over the weekend unless I needed to use one or more.
And I wasn't joking about Kool-Aid. I've raided the pantry a couple times when I needed it. The stuff is nearly 100% citric acid. I've also used powdered "citrus" drink (some sort of lemon drink).
Just check the things once in a while, rinse them off during the soaking when the black gunk coats the tool. And this gunk does stain the hands.
Once the tool is removed, rinse it really well. I use near scalding hot water. The tool gets really warm and aids drying it off. I pat them dry with paper towels. I also spray a bit of the bee's wax we carry on them to help prevent the slight rust which can form.
Take care, Mike
You can also wash off the gunk and drop the rasps into a baking soda solution to fully stop the acid, then rinse and wax as described.Truth to tell, Coca Cola probably works, too. It is full of acid. I used to clean chrome with it.Joe
Ha--Howzit, Joe?
Yeah, in grade school didn't we all dissolve stuff in science class using Coca-Cola? Probably would work.
I did the neutralizing thing a few times with the citric acid. Works I suppose--but I think a good flush with water works for the mild acids we're yaking about.
I use a bit stronger stuff now and do neutralize the acid, then rinse etc. Still treat them with the wax as well. Resinous woods don't stick as bad between treatments.
Take care, Mike
Amazing, isn't it, what we put into our tummies?BTW, did you get my email of a few days ago?J
On the broken rasp was stamped, "Made in Brazil".
Like you, I've always thought that phenomena was due more to the cleaning. I've used phosphoric acid on chisels that were sharp (rusted when I had a temporary shop on the Gulf Coast when doing boat work) and the phosphoric acid certainly did not make the chisels sharper I can assure you.
Would love to understand the mechanism behind acid on files and rasps to understand how the acid knows to maintain cutting edge geometry on them but somehow forgets how to do it when used on plain bench chisels (this goes for all acids - citric and others).
For my money, I still think it's due to the cleaning more than anything. A clean file always cuts better (though not better than a new file) An acid etched file cuts better than it did before, but CERTAINLY not better than a brand new one of the same type. Of that, I'm sure.
Let's summarize - cuts better than it did before the acid cleaned off the gunk but does not cut better than a new file. Intelligent people can draw their own conclusions.Maybe I should just blow-off filing my own saws and dip them in a tank of acid when the edges go off a little. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? It is.
Edited 7/28/2008 8:17 am ET by BossCrunk
I think it's a surface area thing. The acid is eating away the broad faces faster than the chipped or dulled edge just because there's more surface area. If you dipped your saw in acid it would come back thinner, not necessarily sharper. The acid is most effective on the broader surfaces.I've seen water jets. Not sure how you clean a file with one let alone a rasp. Adam
May be, but a new file still cuts better so at best the acid process is an incomplete one.
I think that's right. Though I've heard guys say their Nicholson Patternmakers' rasps came back (from Boggs) cutting better than when they were new.Mike, do you do saw files? I've heard it won't work on them. I cut teeth with files and what I find is that the corners break down and the file is shot. I guess when you are resharpening, the face of the file matters more. Adam
Hi Adam,
Nope. Don't do saw files. Too little cost for me to save them. Main issue is that unlike a rasp or flat file, the corners simply become shot too fast. One would need to sharpen them every X strokes to keep the teeth. Neither acid nor Bogg's newish method will create the teeth on the tool.
The same issue applies to half-round files. If I use them too much before sharpening, there are areas of use on the convex portion that the teeth are pretty much toast. Cannot resurrect them.
Boss,
Good to see ya around. You can either speculate out the arse or simply try dunking a file. I will guarantee even a new file will be *sharper* after treatment (as long as you don't dissolve the thing) than before.
It's a relative thing. If you were to look at what the teeth on a file are like when the file is new, you might be appalled. Look at it after treatment. Tis sharper.
Oh, go ahead and dunk your saws. I could always use another customer. fwiw, a really strong solution of Phosphoric acid will remove about 10 thou of steel every 24 hours. But it ain't gonna care whether it is the teeth or the plate. It also will embrittle the steel if left in that long.
Take care, Mike
Mike:How about rat-tail files?Joe
Hi Joe,
Never have done one, but it would work fine. The give a heck about radiused files or rasps is wearing places on them where the teeth are worn away.
Take care, Mikeback to work...
I've cleaned rasps with acid. I thought that was clear from my earlier post. And again, I attributed the improvement to the fact that the pitch was removed, much like cleaning a router bit improves its performance. I'm still dubious that very much "sharpening" is taking place and if it is it could only be marginal for they never cut like they do when new.
I chalk up a brand new file or rasp cutting better after a dunking in acid to the feeling (and of course that's all it is) that your car runs smoother after it's been washed. You feel better about it but the car can't tell the difference. I'm sure somebody has leased time on a university's electron microscope and will happily prove me wrong though.
As far as my chisel and saw example are concerned I was simply wondering aloud about why acid apparently only works (if one in fact believes it does) on rasps and files and no other edge tools. Strange and intelligent stuff, this acid.
I remain skeptical.
Edited 7/28/2008 10:40 am ET by BossCrunk
Actually, as I mentioned before, chemical sharpening does work on other things. Some of the sharpest fish hooks available are chemically sharpened as part of the manufacturing process.Now getting beyond what I really know, if memory serves, the acid works on files and rasps because of the shape of the teeth. Material is removed from each side, just as if it were being filed off. The resulting tooth of smaller but sharper.Joe
The sides and not the front and back? Fascinating.
The pragmatist in me still wants to attribute the improvement in performance to the absence of pitch and sawdust more than anything else.
Reading below, this sounds a little more involved (and far from a slam dunk) than just dunking a file in acid and winging the time it is in the bath.
I would assume there is some failure rate with this process since it appears to be a delicate one, no? It appears that a small variance in the geometry of the fishhook's original manufacture might cause the acid etching process to fail. Are the individual teeth on a rasp able to be manufactured to that degree of consistency? I wonder.
Chemical sharpening of hooks
The points of each hook are first made with a normal needle grinding method. The wire then goes throughout all the other stages to make it into a finished hook and it is then heat-treated.
After that the hooks go through a process in which a chemical attacks the surface. The thinner parts of the wire are affected and, in particular, the point.
The chemical smoothes or "eats away" the metal and, in effect, refines the point. This is quite a critical operation because if the chemical sharpening goes on too long it will eventually dull the point and may weaken the barb. Furthermore, if the chemical attacks one side of the point more than the other then the point will be weakened. Finally, it is important to remember that chemical sharpening will not make a weaker point into a strong one. It is more likely to make a suspect point even weaker!
The method used is similar to that which has been used for surgical needles for many years.
Edited 7/28/2008 3:54 pm ET by BossCrunk
It does sharpen something like a saw, which does not have a smooth face or back, really. There are small serrations from the saw files--unless one is using diamond triangular files.
A plane blade or chisel which is ubber smooth in comparision will end up shapr--but with small serrations in the edge and will not be the same kind of sharp. More like a kitchen knife which has had a coarse steel used on it to give it some bite and true the edge.
Let's put it this way. If I put an Ariou or dulled Nicholson rasp in the acid and am not careful when cleaning, I will cut my hand. It's sharp.
I clean any and all gunk off the rasps prior to acid. Perhaps you are not, eh? From the sound of it, you are using/used acid to loosen and remove gunk. It needs to be removed prior to acid. And the residue during treatment cleaned during. Pretty simple.
I tell you what. Send me a file that is dull but still has teeth on it. I'll treat it over this next weekend. Even ship it back gratis. If it isn't sharper than a new one when you get it back, I'll send you a half dozen new ones. How's that?
Take care, Mike
Happy to... will send an Iridium smooth cut... need your address.
Just promise you won't turn it into a medium or rough cut.....
Edited 7/28/2008 10:55 am ET by BossCrunk
Wenzloff & Sons1154 N Fremont LaneCornelius, OR 97113
Take care, Mike
Ha. Cute. Of course I posted the address before reading your message.
But hey, if they really make files from it--which I seriously doubt--and while acid won't work on it, sodium chloride will. Guess I better get out my hazmat suit 'cause I assume the vapors from the etching will be nasty.
My only concern is whether I should use table, sea or Kosher salt...
Take care, Mike
PS. Be serious. Send a file. What do you have to loose?
It's Iridium brand... from Italy (http://www.corradi.com) maybe it has iridium in it, dunno (I thought they all had tungsten and iridium in them but I'm stupid). It wasn't particularly cheap. Please don't screw it up.
Also - thanks, maybe I'll be a convert. Will be happy to pay the going rate for this sort of thing if all goes well. In fact, I insist on it. I'll send the file as is. I used it over the weekend and I haven't even banged the dust out of it from the last swipe or two that I took.
Edited 7/28/2008 11:48 am ET by BossCrunk
Ah, Corradi. Own some Corradi, but not the Iridium line. Not bad rasps and rifflers, especially for the price.
Iridium is actually a fairly soft metal, at least in comparision to a file. Good thing they don't actually use the metal. I suspect they probably chose the name because of the rarity of the metal.
(Note. The Corradi rifflers Woodcraft and Rockler have sold are rather coarse tools and don't represent the finer ones.)
No worries about dollars. It'll be fine.
Take care, Mike
Didn't get mine from either of the sources you mentioned, but that doesn't mean it's not the same one. Could be a rather blue-collar job compared to Auriou, et al.
Edited 7/28/2008 12:26 pm ET by BossCrunk
So, can I throw away my sharpening stones, and sharpen my chisels and plane blades with acid? Will all of this put Norton out of business? Is the end of diamondstones too? All we have to do now is squeeze oranges, and dunk our tools in the juice. Does the pulp help? I used to live in Florida, next to an orchard. Shoulda stayed. I coulda sharpened my band saw blades in the stuff. Also my scythe! I can see it now. The people who make orange juice and lemonade are going to take over the woodworking business. I wonder if the stuff will work on my floats. I could make more wood planes faster. How about my lawnmower blades? I need to buy stock in Tropicana.
This is fascinating stuff.
Well, maybe I'll just do my rasps, and let it go at that.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel don't forget to invest in potatoes.
Tom
Tom,
You are right.
Gotta invest in orange juice and potato futures.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Orange juice is a hell of an idea. We could sharpen our tools in the juice, then then drink it. It could the KNOTS version of Geritol, to put an end to iron-poor, tired blood.Joe
Joe,
Glad you like the OJ idea.
I called your buddy. I will go see him tomorrow afternoon.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I think it's a surface area thing. The acid is eating away the broad faces faster than the chipped or dulled edge just because there's more surface area."
I cannot address Mike's observations, because he's done it and seen the effects, and experimentation is always better than theory (you can see the engineer in me coming out in that statement!).
Nevertheless, the physical mechanism isn't likely to be what you're theorizing. Acid etching removes protrusions on metal at a higher rate than it does on broad, flat surfaces. This is the principal behind acid polishing used in the plating industry.
As a general piece of information, Colas (and any soft drink) contains phosphoric acid, though at a concentration considerably below products like Naval Jelly.
Citric acid and Acetic acid (vinegar) are so-called weak acids, in that they don't completely dissociate into a hydronium ion and the corresponding anion in an aqueous solution. Phosphoric, sulfuric, hydrochloric, etc... are so-called strong acids, in that they do completely dissociate in solution.
From the standpoint of steel etching, whether the acid is strong or weak doesn't really have any bearing in that both will abrade the surface by the attack of the hydronium ion on iron to form the corresponding ferrous-anion salt (for example, ferrous sulfate in the case of sulfric acid). The concentration of the acid does, however, affect the speed of the reaction - more concentrated means a more rapid reaction for any given acid.
One warning to those that are reading this thread - hydrochloric acid on iron alloys is a special case. Unlike concentrated phosphoric or sulfuric, hydrochloric acid will heavily pit an iron alloy surface instead of just dissolving away the surface. The mechanism is complex, but that's why "de-rusting" products don't contain chlorides because of the potential to pit steel and iron surfaces.
I think that once a file has rusted, it's toast and not much can be done to save it.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Just in passing (;) :
"I think that once a file has *rusted, it's toast and not much can be done to save it".
----Maybe it can't be saved in its present state , but it can be turned into other useful items such as scraping tools and lathe tools. Personally I wouldn't bother about acid etc unless I was a serial file user- decent files and rasps last a long time when used and stored properly, so I would prefer to buy new.
Brian: you mentioned the Nicholson made in Brazil. Larry Williams posted here some time ago saying that these files are not up to the former standard .
Here on the edge of the known world the current files of choice are Pferd , Bahco and Vallorbe (swiss) . Seems like Nicholson are a thing of the past.
* But how on earth does a file RUST??? What are you doing to them in addition to hammering and bending them? (:) Philip Marcou
Edited 7/29/2008 4:29 am by philip
No, my desire is simply to find a tool that I like. Maybe I came off as being more outraged than I really am. Brian
Dude, you abused the tool, period. Man up, buy a new one and consider this a lesson. Send me the broken sections, I’ll make use of them.
Durable rasp? Defective? Brian, with all due respect, you did the wrong thing. Rasps don't need to be flat. I don't think I ever even checked a rasp for straightness. And a hard rasp is a good thing. If you want a tougher (more durable) rasp, put it in the oven at 450F for a half hour. But that rasp will get dull quicker too.
The #49 is a beautiful thin tool. I'm sure there are thicker tools out there, but I don't prefer them. My recommendation is to smooth your rasp's broken edge with your grinder and keep it. I would also recommend you buy another. I think it would be wrong to send it back as defective.
Try the surforms and micro planes as well. Chock up your broken tool to a learning experience. I've broken my share of tools, so I know how you feel. A few of the tools I broke were a couple hundred years old which made me feel particularly stupid. They survived all these years and only waited for ME to ruin them.
Adam
I believe you to be correct. I just looked at my 49 and your correct , It would not be to difficult to snap it in half. Never noticed how thin it is .
Tom
Yeah. Brian made a mistake. We learn woodworking alone and these sorts of things happen. They happen to all of us. What I think is interesting is that the features he found troubles with are what make that tool great- it's hard/brittle and thin. Even with 3 inches snapped off, it will still be good to use however. And he could probably use the 3" piece for something too.After 5 years of hard use, my patternmakers' rasps are starting to get dull. I'm wondering if I can send to them to Bogg's tool for reconditioning. I think that will work.Adam
Hi Adam
I wonder what chemical formulation Boggs uses to sharpen files and rasps?
Recently I tried a solution of citric acid (150 gms of powder in a 4 litre bucket of water) on a bunch of moderately-used Nicholson files, and left them there for one week. They came out very sharp.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Adam,
You can sharpen them yourself. Use some citric acid from a brew supply house whether local or on-line, or a checmical supply house. As a last resort you can pick up some Kool-Aid from the grocery store as citric acid is its main component. Mix the KA with less water.
I sharpen all our rasps and files this way. Sometimes each week under heavy use, sometimes monthly.
Of course, to be period corect, use a bucket of urine in the corner and clean your rasps after each use and let them soak overnight.
Whichever medium is used (citric acid or urine) check the rasps periodically. They will get black gunk covering them and one should rinse it off (it will stain the hands) and put them back in. Checking periodically also allows one to check the progress: you can leave them in too long.
Note that Nicholson rasps and files (and other makers) with the exception of Auriou are hardened through and through. Aurious are case-hardened and one can easily ruin an Auriou with a single treatment if left in too long. Eventually you will ruin it because the acid will eventually eat through the hardened outer layer. My Aurious are 3-4 years old. Only ruined/used up one thus far.
My Nicholson 49 and 50 are several years old and have been treated many, many times.
Take care, Mike
Oh. Before someone asks, I have no idea of the ratio of ciric acid to water. I dump a small handful of acid into the water every once in a while as it does become ineffective. When the solution gets real ugly, and I dump it back out, I refill the container (about 12" x 30" in length) to about 3-4 inch depth and dump maybe an 1/8 pound into it. And I now use a different acid which is far more powerful. It'll eat a rasp in 24 hours. Don't want to leave them in very long.
Good quality files and rasps are hardened, they will snap and break like ice if enough side pressure is put on them. If they aren't hardened, the teeth won't last. I think it's difficult to find better rasps than #49 and #50 patternmakers rasps, unless you try to bend them. Sorry to say, you abused the tool, there wasn't anything wrong with it. Maybe you need a drawknife or spoke shave for more aggressive stock removal. The patternmaker rasps should last many years working wood.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
hammer,
I'm fairly new to working wood with tools such as rasps, drawknives, shaves, etc. What I've found is that one needs to develop a sense of how the tool is cutting but perhaps even more important is reading the grain.
If I take aggressive cuts with any hand cutting tool it's going to leave a relatively rough surface and if I cut against the grain, well you know what is likely to happen....
Even aggressive shaping with a 4 in hand will leave file marks on the surface but shaping with a light touch can/will approach sandpaper. Kind of what I call finessing the cut. For quick and dirty shaping I've had really good success with a small drawknife, followed by a shave and then perhaps sandpaper.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hey Bob, You're supposed to click the reply button on the original post! Heh heh. Go native, a crooked knife is a great tool for whittlin'.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
You heard it already. You simply broke a good tool. Grind the edge to a slight radius so the sharpeness of the break doesn't bite the hand. Use light pressure when grinding and allow the rasp to cool during the process so you don't do further damage and then use the thing.
Buy another. Don't try to bend the thing. Use them both. The shorter one will find use.
Take care, Mike
Brian,
Like hammer1 stated, rasps are super hard and very brittle. They will break very easily when struck. I learned this when seating a rasp in a handle. I placed the rasp's tang in the hole I bored in the handle, the butt end of the handle on the workbench, and started to knock the rasp into the handle with a metal hammer. I chipped off the corner and stopped there. I later learned a better technique is to insert the tang as far into the handle as possible and slam the butt end of the handle against a hard surface (workbench). The inertia of the tool will seat the rasp.
The thinness of the rasp is one of the reasons they are so valuable. They will get into much tighter spaces than your "consumer grade" rasps. And no, they don't need to be flat, though I think all the one I've seen (I do receiving) have been flat, though I've never checked.
I like my Microplanes - they cut quickly in any direction and leave a reasonably smooth (though not clean) surface, but not even close to that of a #49. As much as I hate sanding, I have learned that it isn't all that bad hand sanding as long as you start at a coarse enough grit and don't skip too many. Ever try 12-grit? Depending on what scale of work you are doing, you may find carving burrs usefull.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"I'm going to return it as defective."
Brian, and when you do I hope that you explain to them that YOU broke it and how YOU broke it. In my book you missused the tool and it's yours!
I'm not trying to be hard on you man but returning things that are damaged because of miss-use is no different than stealing, the rest of us wind up paying for it. The right thing to have done would have been to have contacted the firm you bought it from before you broke it and ask about the condition of the tool possibly requesting a new straighter version.
So now make lemonaide and keep the rasp and use the remaining portion, with a great story about how it came to be that way!
Madison
Madison,
How ya doin'?
We haven't talked in a long time. Great to see that you are still in fine fettle. We need you in Congress! or maybe the Senate.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
Not Me! Not in Congress or the Senate! I fear there would be bodies strewn all through the place. I have little patience for the whole lot as I've yet to meet one that has a lick of sense much less any understanding of the concept "personal productivity".
No I just keep myself busy and enjoy my beautiful Rocky Mountains knowing that what ever winds blow in Washington I will be obliged to pay for!
I've been pretty busy the last couple months, made a trip to New Mexico to talk with a couple galleries and to visit a couple past clients. Came back with a commission for a conference room table and a dozen chairs. Should keep me out of trouble or in trouble which ever way you look at it!
Madison
Madison,
I just got back from a family vacation to a Dude Ranch about a half hour from Steamboat Springs. The town we were in, which is almost nonexistent, is Clark. We had a great time there in the Rockies. We climbed and went to a Hot Spring, and rode horses and ate too much. Had the whole family there. Great fun. BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY. Never leave it for Washington, DC, even if you get elected President.
Congrats on the commission for the conference table and chairs.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
I'm afraid I've upset Brian so I have to be especially nice in this post. You should have let me know you were going to be out in our little piece of heaven, hubby and I could have jumped in the truck and stopped by to say hi. We're down the road a piece between Frisco and Breckenridge just off I-70.
I'm glad you had fun while here and don't you worry about me heading to DC (been there done that, but everybody should at least once don't you think?) now you'll have to scheme up a way to come back because this part of the world is a little like potato chips and you can't visit just once! In my case it was, oh look she got lost in our mountains and we're not going to let her leave! I never have. ha!
Have you ever been to CO before? Steamboat and Hot Springs are really beautiful this time of year (still a little green) and lots of friendly folks and no shortage of outside activities and food huh? Ever been up to Estes Park? I think if we were to ever pull up and move it'd be to Estes, I'd set up a showroom and be visible to tourists in the summer and hibernate all winter in the shop, but oh the thought of moving all that equipment brings me back to reality in a hurry. So we hide out down here and make em drive to see us instead. Works pretty well and we buzz up to Estes for long weekends now and again.
Well I hear UPS coming up the road so back to work I go!
Madison
Madison,
I used to go to a conference at Snommass in March for about three years. Nice conference. Great skiing. The conference was moved to Big Sky, Montana. So now I go there in March. I have not spent much time in Colorado except in the Airport at Denver, unfortunately. We all loved the town of Clark and the city of Steamboat Springs, and the little Dude Ranch in Clark. We will find a way to get back.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Colorado.. My Son is there..
I only had to go there a few times when traveling for work.
When I did I ALWAYS got up early.. Hell, I wake up before the birds and just after the Bats roost!
Colorado.. Garden of the Gods...
Nothing like it as the Sun rises and you have a hot cup of coffee (with some brandy in it to start the day)...
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ReviewPhotos-g33364-d104029-r4405483-Garden_of_the_Gods-Colorado_Springs_Colorado.html#1242747
I even met a Woman there I liked! But me being me still attached to my old soal mate so it did not go further.. Damn!
Edited 7/30/2008 1:07 pm by WillGeorge
WG,
We really liked Colorado. Go to the long thread and see two photos.Where is Ray Pine? Haven't seen him in a while.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Hey YOU are the one running off from Knots, and spending a week with your family instead of us! (Where are your priorities?) Now you wonder where I've been?
;-))
Say hi to Freddie for me,
Ray
Ray,
Freddy has his mind on other things. His first tooth just popped through and he is working on the second. Anything within reach goes into his mouth. The Doc said to give him some Tylenol. He doesn't concentrate so well when he is teething. I was telling him about how Tage Frid used a bowsaw to cut dovetails, but he wasn't paying any attention. How is he going to learn?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Get him a Wenz saw. He can chew on the handle til he's big enough to use the business end.
We used to rub some topical stuff on the kid's gums--Numzit or some such. Then there was a teething ring that went into the freezer, they'd gnaw on it til it thawed out. Ah the joys of teething; diarrhia used to come along with each new tooth.
Ray
Ray,
The sublties of parenthood as could only be told by you.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
The diaper part, I do not remember with fondness. Just yesterday though, I stopped in at a local farm to get some produce, and their young boy was heading out to their garden to "work". Down on his knees he dropped, and began pushing a small toy tractor with its tiny harrow between the rows of veggies. Now, I confess I got a bit of dust or something in my eye, as I recalled our youngest (now a state trooper) doing that very thing, only yesterday. Or was it 20 some years ago?
Ray
Ray,
They have the topical gel, and the teethers that go in the freezer. Also have a neat new gadget, which is a hinged cloth sieve which is shaped like a nipple. It is on a pacifier. You can put interesting food in it, and the kid will not choke cause all he can get is "strained food". We have tried bananas, frozen carrots, etc. I will not let Amy put potatoes in there, because I need them to seal the endgrain of bowls as they dry. I will not let her put beets in there either because I use them to both color and seal the bowls. Take a look at the photo below to see Freddy's predicament. Tell me he isn't the cutest kid you ever saw. (GO AHEAD. I DARE YOU!)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, an old Irish granny would just rub a little 80 proof Irish on the gums = happy and sleeping. An Eyetalian friend said that his "Nanna" would use a little grappa to make a peaceful nite. Paddy
ps. I am sure that some modern wizzards will find some socialalistic fault with those cures but none of us died and everyone got some sleep. pfh
Paddy,
I had four Italian grandparents (from the old Country). I remember well the use of a bit of grappa or of wine on a cloth napkin to calm a baby who was teething. Nowadays, there isn't much grappa around the house. I suggested the use of some wine on a cloth napkin, but our daughter nixed it. This modern new generation of parents just don't respect the old ways.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, napkin my eye, granny used her index finger* and gave a little massage which I am sure worked wonders. It is a sadness that the i-pod generation dosen't see the simple wisdom of the past. Paddy
*edit-I am sure that very few have died from the microbes on a granny's finger dipped in 80 proof Irish, muchb to the dismay of the i-pod crowd. pfh
Edited 7/31/2008 9:46 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT
Paddy,
In that picture of Freddy that I posted a few messages ago, you will see a finger in Freddy's mouth. It is his mom's finger, and she didn't use any grappa on it, and Freddy still lives. Now, that Freddy has a tooth, she better be ready to get that finger out of there in a hurry, or take a chance on getting bit. He isn't entirely reasonable when his gums hurt.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
Well, I have to say, that kid is pretty darn good looking. He is in fact, and without any doubt, the cutest on the face of the earth. (I say this to all the doting grand-daddies).
Interesting about the cloth strainer. The more things change, the more they stay the same. My dad used to refer to a similar practice from his early childhood (he was born in 1908), when a baby-sitter would, to pacify a fretful baby and lacking the necessary, um, facilities, (not being a wet-nurse), would wrap a lump of sugar up into a twisted piece of cloth, and offer the corner to the crying infant. This was called, in those days, a "sugar- +it"
Dad would, when exasperated by someone's complaining about something that couldn't be helped or changed, exclaim, "Well, what do you want me to do about it, give you a sugar +it?!"
He had a real way with words. And not a lot of patience.
Ray
Edit, and to get back somewhat on topic: Mel, I have amongst my odd and ends, a tooth rasp, used for horses. I'm offering its use to your daughter for Freddie, if he is nursing.
Edited 8/1/2008 9:48 am ET by joinerswork
Ray,
Your dad sounds like he was a good guy.
Mine is 93 and fading, but still often in good spirits.
I will tell Amy about the tooth rasp.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I was telling him about how Tage Frid used a bowsaw to cut dovetails, but he wasn't paying any attention. How is he going to learn?
I'd make him one for his First birthday!
Maybe two! Kids break things.. Send him a few wooden Plum planes, and a BIG wood lathe and a Pass to NASA when he can read and understand... 'Houston we have problems.' .. !
And send him to my house for a BIG Hug.. Tell him .. Just a scarry looking old man there that just loves children! I really do!
Nothing on Earth, that God made is like a child, or your first date you married! ...
I was telling him about how Tage Frid.. I told my girls that once and they ignored me!
Will George,
Glad to see that we have both told our grandkids about Tage Frid.
Have fun.
Mel
You do have a point, of course. But it is only opinion and you don't know how much or how little preassure I applied to it. Could the same damage have happened in a more innocent way, like dropping it two feet onto a bench top or pushing on it trying to make a heavy cut (possibly causing an injury?) I wonder. Another point: maybe Rockler should have described the thinness or delicacy of the tool better on its website. We don't all have the opportunity to hold tools before we buy them, after all. Another point: I buy so much volume from rockler that they offered me 15% off anything, no limit, an offer which I have barely used and which would 'cost' them much more than $40 if I chose to. I think they must be willing and able to spend a little on the maintainence of 'customers like me'. And the CHOSE not to ask me many questions about what happened, so it's there choice of manner of doing business in which the customer is always right. And frankly, if they had grilled me about it all I might have been a little turned off and chose not to order as much from them in the future, which would have made them less money, which would have (apparently) increased the cost to you of whatever it is you have in mind. I haven't exactly decided what to do with the piece of metal yet, but I'm not accepting a guilt trip from you, which I find a little harsh.Brian
Brian:
It is apparent from your latest gasp of hot air that you fail to grasp the concept of self responsibility as you have continued your "It ain't my fault" approach to the whole situation. So if Rockler wants to continue to do business with you that's fine and if you wish to continue to rationalize your poor behavior and mis-use of the tool as some sort of defect because you couldn't drop it from 2 feet without it breaking as well, so be it. But don't come around here and whine and cry because you don't like my response to your plight. The other folks who responded to your post all as much as said the same thing, you screwed up, perhaps they were more polite and more concerned with hurting your feelings and I'll concede that I gave you some grief. Your continued attitude toward the thing simply underscores my belief that the grief was warranted. You bought an expensive rasp, mis-handled it and it broke, and now you're upset. Well get over it, are you going to return your hand planes or chisels when the blades get dull from running them into nails too?
I operate a successful custom furniture shop and I will tell you right now that no business can expect to come out on top with customers like you. In my world we do very high quality work and our customers understand that fine finishes or veneered surfaces can't be used like a butcherblock. If they find themselves in the position of having caused damage we are very happy to make adjustments but they also understand that we will charge them for the repairs. If Rockler wishes to discount to you and accept your broken tools for replacement that is their business and obviously they've been at it for 50 years so one can only hope that they by this point know their customer and how to operate profitably but I will stand by my original statement that the rest of us are indeed paying for your poor behaviour!
So in closing I truly hope you will reflect a bit on this whole thing and perhaps spend a bit of time learning a bit about metalergy and continue your journey into the great world of designing and making things. As a hobbie woodworking is a very rewarding pursuit because it provides us with so many opportunities to learn, screw-up and learn again. My comments are only those of one woman and certainly reflect my moral and ethical standards developed over the last 58 years. Maybe I've come across a bit heavy here but you know I think that's ok because it has caused us all to have some meaningful conversation and perhaps an opportunity to reflect on our individual moral compass once again to see if we're heading in the correct direction. I for one can say I'm pleased with my direction at this time.
Good discussion my friend, now go make some sensuous curves with your new rasp!
Madison
"hot air"? "whining and crying"? If that's what you think I was doing then, well, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. I continue to respond to you as a sort of sport, to see if you will ever be friendly through one entire exchange. It hasn't happened yet. It that how you converse with you customers? I appologize if my tone seemed to challenge your world views or something. What were we talking about again? Oh, a thin chunk of metal. Please don't feel obligated to respond.Brian
You're not her customer, you are some one costing her money.
We are not talking about a chunk of metal. We're talking about responsibility, carelessness and profit and loss.
The idea that you would consider withdrawing your business from a company you're clearly happy with due to their unwillingness to pay for your error is absurd.
Finally, reducing the amount you buy from Rockler would make things cost less, not more. lower demand = lower prices.
I wouldn't recommend starting your own business.
Brian:
Oh honey you really need to work on thickening your skin while you're reading up on your metalurgy! I think you'll find that I'm a pretty even tempered gal and there are very few things in life that really get me upset, certainly a little spirited debate is good for your sole from time to time. You simply expressed (in my opinion) such an incredible lack of self responsibility in your original post I thought it important to cut to the chase and tell it like it is. Apparently I've offended your sensibilities and for that I do apologize. I do still however stand firm in my belief that you missed the mark in your commnets and in your expectations for Rocklers obligation to disclosure.
Now in hopes of winding this up on a happy note I will repeat my closing comments from my last post. Oh and don't worry honey I didn't feel obligated at all!
So in closing I truly hope you will reflect a bit on this whole thing and perhaps spend a bit of time learning a bit about metalergy and continue your journey into the great world of designing and making things. As a hobby woodworking is a very rewarding pursuit because it provides us with so many opportunities to learn, screw-up and learn again. My comments are only those of one woman and certainly reflect my moral and ethical standards developed over the last 58 years. Maybe I've come across a bit heavy here but you know I think that's ok because it has caused us all to have some meaningful conversation and perhaps an opportunity to reflect on our individual moral compass once again to see if we're heading in the correct direction. I for one can say I'm pleased with my direction at this time.
Good discussion my friend, now go make some sensuous curves with your new rasp!
I remain, always up for a good wrestle your new friend,
Madison
Brian Honey, Your lunch is all gone. No offence, I found her post brilliant.
Tom
Edited 7/29/2008 4:33 pm ET by gofigure57
Hi. I'm not upset here, and I think the word is used so that you can add 'delicate' to your list of criticisms of me. Just as you see nothing wrong with asking someone thicken their skin, I see nothing wrong with asking someone to thin-out their mouth. And I will do so from time to time if the person seems really worth talking to, which I think you are. TO ALL: When I started this thread I had very little hands-on knowledge of high-quality rasps. That's why I came to you. Knowing what I know now I would never try to straighten a rasp like it was a sawblade. The idea to return the tool was simply my first thought which is why it became a part of our discussion. The consensus is that it would be 'wrong' (and I agree to a certain extent) to do so, so lets just say that I probably won't. But I think it's in poor form to accuse me of stealing your livelihood or something. I don't get on you about speeding and raising the price of gas. Maybe 'being responsible cosumers' would be a good thread. I think many, many woodworkers could improve themselves in that department. Discussion points could include, "Made in China", "Sandpaper vs. scrapers", "Useless junk", "Too many toys", and "Try before you buy". And to conclude, a diversion: what are you reading this for? Get over and check out my kitchen in the Gallery!Brian
I agree and I think we need to encourage folks to participate. God forbid someone asks a stupid question or makes a mistake and learns from it. I think it's great that you shared your experience and thoughts with us. I hope others do the same. I've made the exact sort of mistakes you made. You can't paint a picture without spilling a little paint. And I think I've spilled more than my share of wood and tools. It's how we learn Brian and these experiences are cheaper and more valuable than golf lessons or high end stereo equipment. I bought a #49 and a #50* probably 5 or 6 years ago from Highland hardware. They are both bowed over their length. Its very hard to quench metal and have it stay straight. It generally doesn't. Water is worse than oil, but oil quenched tools won't be as hard as water quenched. I'm not sure what quenchant Nicholson uses. But that's the issue. It would be very hard to make a hard rasp straight.Adam
*I bought a #49 and a #50 on some blasted ww author's recommendation. But I really don't think you need both. I think a cabinet file is a must have however. And Mike is right- save the broken bits. A short rasp will com in handy later. PPS I dropped a couple of center bits that were just fantastic. They hit the concrete floor and shattered. I always told myself never to carry the brace over that floor bit down. Did I say I did this a couple times? Well I was sharpening one one day in my tin knockers vise. There's really no good way to hold the little devils. The shanks are tapered. They might as well be watermelon seeds. Anyway, this thing was razor sharp and it slipped so I caught it. It was one of those moments when time stood still. I knew they always fall tip down. But I just didn't want to wreck another 150 year old tool on my watch. The center spur buried itself in my palm and I walked around telling people I was Padre Pio. Normal people don't understand this story, but for us, we know a good tool is worth it.
Edited 7/29/2008 10:57 pm ET by AdamCherubini
Thanks, Adam. I really appreciate your help and understanding.Brian
Brian:I have kind of specialized in asking ignorant questions on this forum for three years now, because I am pretty ignorant of many things. Most of the time folks including several on this thread have been patient and kind, and given me very helpful answers. Knots is generally a friendly, helpful place. Every now and then, though, email and web threads get out of hand. People forget all about tact and courtesy. People forget that the written word is far more abrupt and less subtle than the spoken word, largely because it has no facial expressions or body language to modify it.This thread is one that has gotten out of hand that way. There is some valuable information (I had no idea about the metallurgy, either), but there is also a lot of piling on. I hope everyone will take deep breaths and return to their normal friendly and helpful selves.Joe
"(I had no idea about the metallurgy, either), "
Thank God somebody finally spelled it correctly. I think Madison butchered it three different ways.
Oh, by the way, I have some old rasps and some new ones and the old ones sure feel heftier in my hand - supposedly the same model from a famous maker.
1/2 round rasps should be flat on the flat side or very slightly convex (so that the stroke will be flat). You can't do this with a simple hardening of a rasp. In order to do this you have to quench the rasp and then in the few seconds after it's quenched, but before it's fully cool straighten it with wooden mallets. Yes it's a really really skillful step and no mass producer of rasps can do it because they harden lots of rasps at once. THe better hand cut rasps are hardened individually and that's how they are done. Real long English paring chisels were done this way too. It's way beyond my skill level - but I'm not a rasp maker or a paring chisel forger. It's part of the dark art of traditional metal forging and hardneing. Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Brian:
Now we're going in the right direction! Good suggestions all. Now let's crank up the Bob Seager and make some sawdust.
See you around!
Madison
You wouldn't like me when I'm angry . .
Wanna bet!
Old Service man here that traveled the world doing it for many years..
EVERYBODY!! Was pissed at me when I showed up!
I learned to live with it and not take it personal!
OK, so some I walked out of the place, and told them to call MY BOSS!
I'd make sure they knew that my boss sent his best service man to try to help you!
I was .. Maybe some better mechanics... but I'd put up with crap nobody else did.. Had a few guns pulled on me as I left the door .. Thank God... nobody actually shot me!
You may think a lot of BS..
NO... I tried my best to understand that this person was making payments on a bank loan that probably was in the millions... and his/her machine was DOWN! AND NO INCOME to make the payments or pay the workers!
I understood PAY THE WORKERS!
Edited 7/29/2008 6:54 pm by WillGeorge
From what I can tell you haven't an ounce of BS in you. It's a pleasure to read your thoughts anytime.Brian
42720.75 in reply to 42720.67
From what I can tell you haven't an ounce of BS in you.
LOL.. Maybe a ton of it!
I just spice up the story a bit but almost all is true! I have no problem looking stupid.. Did it all my life... Why stop now at old age?
When you engage in dishonest behavior by returning something you broke due to your inexperience or lack of knowledge you cost all of us who are consumers money. This is not opinion, it is fact.
You admitted you screwed up in an earlier post, now you are saying you "probably" won't commit theft.
Quit trying to make a turd smell like a rose, do the right thing and move on. By and large most Knots denizens have a pretty good moral compass, to advertise that you are about to do something wrong and not expect to hear about it seems a little naive.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
Jack London
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