Friends,
In the long thread in the Hand Tools folder, someone posted a website of a man named David Savage. The website is:
http://finefurnituremaker.com/woodworking_tools.htm
A few people commented that they really liked his tool reviews, so I went to take a look, and was very impressed. He calls some Very good, some good, some bad and some very bad. Maybe it is just a coincidence, but in every case in which I have experience with the tools he was reviewing, I had similar views. ((So maybe both of us are crazy. 🙂 ))
This is the first time I have ever heard of David Savage. I would like to know how others in the woodworking community feel about this guy, his furniture and his tool reviews. I’d like to hear what you think. Take a look at his tool review page. At first blush, he seems too good to be true. Am I missing something? I have never been much of a fan of tool reviews in general, but I think I might be willing to pay to read this guy’s stuff. ((Well, I wouldn’t go that far.))
Thank you.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Well known, well respected and outspoken. He's always has been outspoken and opinionated and, historically got into conflicts with magazine editors. His own website allows him to say whatever he feels like, whenever he feels like it.
I've always found him personable and knowledgeable whenever we have conversed. He has trained quite a few makers over the years, many of whom have gone on to set up their own workshops. He is pretty active in the trade organisation we are both a member of, eg, involvement is exhibitions, conferences, etc. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Black Daggar,
I like his drawing site, nothing like learning to see more intensely....
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Richard,
Great response! You just erased any potential for doubt about the authenticity of David Savage. This guy is the real thing. He is a great woodworker, and he has trained many woodworkers who have become very good, and he is outspoken. Can't beat that with a stick.
I really appreciate your response.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well it would be nice if he asked some one to proof read his text.
>However NOOO stuff on the market are the Norton water stones they have a range of 220 grit 1000 grit to turn a burr and either 4000 grit or the ultimate 8000 grit.
and
>Dont worry about manufacturers that claim their steel that holds its edge for soooo.... long.
What the hell do those sentences mean? Maybe it is just the English english to American english translation that I am getting lost in.
More detail is needed on some of his comments e.g.,
>The adjustment of these planes are very critical
needs to say what when how etc.
>we are fed up of seeing people new to wood working stuggle with your poor products.
Yep there is a lot of nice looking crap out there that I have spent a lot of time turning into a useful example of what they are advertised to be. Especially hand saws !
Some info just blatantly wrong and since he is writing for British magazines he should be, (probably is), more informed than his comments lead one to believe e.g.,
>Lie Neilson plane. They are the most expensive available.
In the words of Sherlock Holmes " Hardly that, . . . hardly that . . " See Philip's planes and Holtey's (thousands of dollars not hundreds)
>high carbon cutting edge (on Japanese chisel) better in my experience than A2
HELL YES ! ! absolutely right on there. Though the A2 "blue steel" if properly handled by the better Japanese chisel makers has its place.
>Lei Neilsen low angle block plane with adjustable mouth ispopular with our students. The Veritas version is better with the high carbon blade.
Veritas is a better design because of blade adjuster. Though I have and use and like both.
I book marked this site to my woodworking file and look forward to following him !
A person who is smart and grumpy just my cup 'o tea.
Thanks Mel
Edited 11/1/2008 11:43 pm by roc
Edited 11/1/2008 11:48 pm by roc
Roc,
Loved your response. You have STYLE!
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I wonder if he is any relation to the Brit that rowed from San Francisco to Hawaii this summer:http://www.rozsavage.com/http://www.rozsavage.com/adventure/?sec=&pg=26Scroll second one down to see rout. She is going all the way to Australia in three stages. She has finished stage one San Fran to Hawaii !http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw_TdugRzRs&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJJZKKEXm64I followed her expedition with fascination. 99 days eight hours. No motor, no sail, lots of woman muscle. Just keep rowing you say. No big deal. Ok throw a broken finger into the mix early in the trip. (During a storm her hand got tangled in the line for the sea anchor.) Grab those oars for about eleven hours a day and you start to get the picture.Her weekly interviews on Leo Laporte:http://live.twit.tv/ are archived on iTunes for free. She can row eleven to sixteen hours a day and other people don't want to ride their bike a few miles to work to reduce our global impact!
Edited 11/2/2008 3:02 am by roc
Roc and Mel,
I think what Richard said in his first paragraph certainly coincides with my first impressions when reading his blog and views on tools ect.
I agree that the quality of his grammar and spelling, not to mention other aspects of web site ""character" that come across need some polishing,and he should have checked that the web site jockey actually got these little things right.Maybe he is too busy ranting about crap steels etc.
I did write email him and asked an unusual question: so let's see if he replies at all. I don't care how posh a fellow thinks he is, but if he cannot even acknowledge receipt of an e mail from an interested party then the glass is automatically emptied.Philip Marcou
Philip,To paraphrase Richard, Savage by name and savage by nature!I've read articles by Mr Savage over the years and always found him clear, well-argued and sensibly grounded in his experiences rather than in some theory or hoary tradition. I don't mind spade-callers if they impart solid information and wisdom.He makes contemporary (what does it mean - I never really know) furniture of a rather spikey kind. Articles about it's design and construction are fascinating and educative, although I have to say I dislike all the swoops and points myself (just a matter of personal taste). He is a very competant maker, judging by the attention to detail, technique and the near-perfection of his stuff (photo evidence only, in my case).His attitude to tools is very pragmatic and critical. This means he not only steps on some toes but probably also breaks a manufacturer's ankle or even a leg now and then. He's a sort of negative to Derek's positive, in that way. A dollop of both styles of tool review is perhaps no bad things for us potential buyers, though but.Lataxe, who has just been pawing over some contemporary furniture in Leyburn, Yorkshire, including those pieces exhibited by Mr Jones (all designs copied and secreted away for later use so I can avoid any design-royalties). :-)
Lataxe,
Great post. I liked your take on David. He is pragmatic and critical. You have the keenest "bullsh** detector on Knots". If someone or something is not what they seem to be, you can ferret that out quicker than anyone else.
The only place I tend to disagree with your assessment is that you used the term "Negative" about David. I don't find him negative, just truthful. I find people like Charles (aka Boss Crunk, Riverprof, etc.) to be truly negative. His purpose is onlly to cut others down and by doing so to build himself up. David's "negativity" is simply his brutal honesty -- which, by the way, is a delightful characteristic of yours. You offer praise when you feel it is due. You cut like a saber when you think it is appropriate. Excellent approach to life, Dude!
Just like I dislike Charles' negativity, I dislike "positivity", that is being unfairly nice when more incisiveness is called for.
There is something else I like about Savage. He doesn't seem to worship tools. He merely uses tools to get woodwork done. If the tool worke well, that is good. If the tool doesn't work well, then let's pass the word to others so they don't waste time and money. Pussyfooting around such truth is a disservice to the community. To me, some people "love tools too much". They are fascinated by the tools themselves, regardless of their usefullness and cost in accomplishing good woodworking. These people do not share my values. I can't get good information for my needs from such folks. I want "as much tool as it takes to get the job done", but don't want goldplated tools. To me, the focus is on getting woodwork done, not on collecting tools which are works of art or which are primarily designed for "gentleman woodworkers who are wealthy and only want the best".
I believe my views are not widely held, and that is fine. I am not interested in making converts to my way of thinking. My views are much too old fashioned for this modern world. I am overjoyed to find someone like Savage, whose values are close to mine. I wish my skills were close to his. I can dream. However, like you, I would use them to build different styles of furniture.
Enjoy. Life is too short not to.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"just been pawing over some contemporary furniture in Leyburn, Yorkshire, including those pieces exhibited by Mr Jones"
Not smart Mr Lataxe. If you'd been smart you would have reached into your pocket for your wallet, bought the bloody things, and taken them home to inspect, measure minutely, sketch, draft up in detail, and copy as often and frequently as you want to.
However, with 'The Masterpieces' in place in your shed perhaps you'd give up all your own woodworking as somehow, well, not quite up to the mark, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Mel,
I'm glad you like the site. While David's designs are not my cup o' tea, I really appreciate his straightforward commentary.
Dick
Richard,I went on Monday but shoulda gone on Friday or Saturday, just so I could pester you in person. However, I had a fine conversation with one o' those other makers (the WoodB fellah) concerning design aesthetics and learnt a thing or two.As to buying that stuff o' yourn - well, you must give a hefty discount of, say, 90%, before I can be persuaded to cough up. £4500 for a wee set of drawers, even those which have been touched by the hallowed hond of Jonsey, is too rich. Besdes, I already spent it all on posh planes and chocolate.Mind you, the ladywife liked the chair from the Downham bloke and is anxious to pay him a visit clutching her pound notes.Although I had the camera with me on the day (to take many lovely Wensleydale and 3-peaks autumn vistas) I didn't go round photographing all them pieces in the Leyburn exhibit, despite there being no restriction. I wish I had now so I coulda posted 23 views of your ones, thereby allowing all the naughty fellows to steal the design and perhaps even the small inscription on the inside of that top drawer. Down with copyright, which is theft from the common design-space!Lastly, I note your challenge and will now be planning & making A Masterpiece that will certainly eclipse that (admittedly elegant and well-wrought) attempt o' yours. For a start, there will none of them metal drawer-runner thangs (no B&Q aspects for moi). :-)Lataxe, probably beyond contemporary and more a relic now.
Oh well Mr Lataxe, if you happen to go to my website, under major reconstruction as it is with many false starts and, er, well ... cock-ups, all due to my greenness on this website building thing, you will find some discussion of copyright issues and intellectual pilfering if you click on the image of the curvy cabinet with the, ahem, B&Q metal slides (sic) that I'm guessing you were not overly fond of.
Anyway, it sounds like you had an enjoyable day, even if you didn't unload your wallet in my direction. I couldn't stretch to a 90% discount I'm afraid, but I'd be happy to include a 10% 'upcharge' if you like, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Philip,
Thanks for your take on David. I value your opinions highly. Glad to hear you agree with Richard.
I am not interested in spelling and in the fineries of language. I WANT HARD CORE writing on fine woodworking and on the tools necessary to accomplish fine woodworking. I dislike BS in this area. I dislike dainty tip toeing. I dislike reviewers being too close to the manufacturers. I dislike a focus on "tools qua tools".
I like a person who is, first and foremost, an accomplished woodworker who gets down and dirty about how he does it and what he finds useful in accomplishing it.
Philip, you are a gentleman, and you expect a response to an email. Personally, I don't care if he answers anyone's emails. I care only that he provide good information. If David is a maker of fine furniture, and a teacher of future fine furn. makers, he doesn't have time to answer everyone's emails. That is something I would admire him for -- sticking to central issues -- like actually doing woodworking.
I like my information "unvarnished" by good spelling. I like information like I like my workshop -- What you see is what you get. Nuttin fancy.
Too many formerly good woodworkers have flown the coop. They have been seduced by the adulation they recieve on the Woodworking Tours, and by the fans of their writing, and by the $1000 a week they get from rich woodworker wannabees for taking their classes. These are not the people who get me excited. David Savage's website got me excited. It seems to be The Real Thing. To use some old but descriptive NASA parlance, he has "The Right Stuff".
Upon reading his website, I was elated to have finally found a fine woodworker who shares so many of my values. Indeed I was worried that I may have missed something and am deluding myself. But so far, the feedback is that I guess right.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,You gush:"David Savage's website got me excited. It seems to be The Real Thing. To use some old but descriptive NASA parlance, he has "The Right Stuff".....Upon reading his website, I was elated to have finally found a fine woodworker who shares so many of my values. Indeed I was worried that I may have missed something and am deluding myself". So, the Savage One is Right because he's like you..... Of course (slaps head with palm) ....one down-and-dirty saint recognises another! Where can I buy a relic and your little red book?Lataxe, who prefers folk who are NOT like himself, as the Lataxe-clones have nothing to tell me and there are zillions of types amongst the not-clones, all with alarming and exciting ideas.
Lataxe,
For the first time, I am disappointed in you. You indicated that I like this Savage person because he shares my values. WRONG INTERPERETATION.
I was thrilled to find one person in the world who does. The world would be far too dull and uninteresting is we just hung around with people who are just like us. But then again, you and I are almost twins, and I enjoy conversing with you.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,This is only the first time I "disappointed" you!? I can't a-been tryin' hard enough. :-)As to sharing values (shurely that is Consultant-speak - which "values" come from a can and may always be got on one sheet of paper in sentences no longer than 8 words, each with one syllable) well, mine change every week and I've no idea what they are; so I doubt we share any except temporarily and co-incidentally. I suspect yourn are somewhat fixed, in any case.***In truth, I took exception to your high-minded dismissal of Derek and the validity of his writings concerning tools. Also, I fear you enjoy Mr Savage simply because he is savage about tools, not because he helps one make a better choice (although he may well do). You are (self-admittedly) cynical concerning folk like Derek, David Charlesworth and others who enjoy, or who make a living from, teaching stuff. If you had any evidence that what they do is wrong, harmful or disingenuous, I could sympathise. But you simply dismiss them all out of hand because of some strange "value" (which I suspect is just envy-based cynicism). Have you personally had a wrong-steer to a tool or technique from Derek, DC, Rob Cosman or any of the other prominent woodworkers who offer WW-related advice or opinions in public?***No doubt you are disappointed in my opinion of your motives. But don't worry, I just made a wild and cynical guess at them with no real evidence, so my opinion is worthless and has a 99.9% chance of being irrelevant and wrong. :-)Lataxe the Mel-goad
Lataxe,
I don't yet feel goaded.
I read Charlesworth intently. I like Cosman's attitude, and I have enjoyed most of his DVDs.I have read almost everything that Derek has written, and have learned a great deal from it.
I don't dismiss people who are more capable or knowldegeable than I am, except if they deserve it, and I can only think of one of those. For years you have said that I am too nice. Glad to see that you are changing your mind, and getting more realistic.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Oh no, it's not Lataxe that's changing, but you. I've seen many (myself included) try poking at you a bit over the past year and change, since I came to these boards, and you've never lost your cool before.Just last week you thought everyone was a master while simultaneously despising hero-worship, now Derek Cohen is a sell-out and David Savage is a candidate for sainthood. I think something's rocky in Mel's world, you don't sound like your usual all-opinions-are-equally-good self.But enough psychoanalysis. Savage is a lot of fun, but his tool review is some of my least favorite of what he's written. When all is said and done he pontificates a lot about how he's going to skewer everyone, and then hardly skewers anyone. His grammar is terrible, and Philip is right, effective communication is important in any endeavor. When you strip away all the angry ranting, it all boils down to: buy a LN 6 or 5 (if you're wimpy) to begin with, a LV LA block plane, LN chisels, and LN dovetail and small carcass saw. That's it. That's all folks. Nothing to see here.Derek is kind to LV, and I would be too in his shoes, but I've learned an immense amount from his posts. The only time he talked me out of LN and into LV (router plane) he gave solid objective reasons for it. Certainly he has a conflict of interest, but he's the first to say so. It's unfair to ask him to pay for the tools, he doesn't get paid to write the reviews! And if you read between the lines, as Lataxe pointed out, a minimally perceptive person can dig out the meaningful bits. To be frank, the shock of a Savage review is fun for a bit. Like a political article in the National Review. But the nastiness gets old quickly, and in the end I prefer a reviewer who can teach me what I want to know (especially when I don't know what that is) without insulting people unnecessarily. I prefer LN to LV because the tools make me happier in my hands. I don't know why, but they fit better, they make me smile more, they look nicer. Not very good reasons are they? I think LV is gimmicky, but the LA jointer I have of theirs is terrific. So is the spokeshave and the router plane. Anyway, Derek's reviews are actually reviews, not rants, and they're the best out there. And I don't have a conflict of interest.Now let's end this silly thread and get back to our goal of 5000 posts in the blog-thread.And quit being defensive and bring the old Mel back. Kumbaya ...---Pedro
.....I think something's rocky in Mel's world, you don't sound like your usual all-opinions-are-equally-good self.
I was kind of starting to like the "new" Mel ;-)
Lee
Pedro,
I like and respect Derek. He is one of my favorite Knot-heads. He has passion. He does something that no one else does, and he does it exquisitely. I am VERY "up" on Derek, not "down". Savage tackles different tools than Derek. Derek is far more detailed and analytic, as one would expect from a person with a deep academic background. Derek "explores" the tools he works with. Given that they come from the best makers who wouldn't let a poor tool be manufactured, Derek deals only with the finest of the fine. He helps others figure out how to tune and use the tool to get the most out of it. He is actually, IMHO, doing a great favor to both the maker and the user. Not many people can do this. And Derek does it with passion and zeal.
When someone on the BIG TREAD showed Savage's site, I got excited. While I am not a modernist, it is obvious this guy is one of the best designers and woodworkers around. On top of that, he is willing to take on the tool makers and let the rest of us woodworkers know where he has found problems. NO HOLD BARRED, and with poor spelling. A thing that I really like about Savage is that he is not a "tool reviewer". He is a FINE WOODWORKER. The tools are only "tools". He has a passion for doing great woodwork, and he gets P-**ed when the tools don't let him do what they are supposed to do. I LOVE THAT WELTANSCHAUUNG. This guy thinks like I do, which makes me believe he is very smart. :-) I only wish I had a fraction of his woodworking skills. As a result of getting to know his work, I may just try my hand at that modern stuff.
Am I changing? I hope so. I am 65. I don't have more than about 40 good years left. I need to change in a good way. Lee (Mapleman) said he like my "new" persona. Thank you, Lee. Actually, I am a partially reformed screamer. When I was young, I was a hotblood. Like an alcoholic, a screamer never really gets over it. I have hidden it pretty well for a decade, and even gone in the opposite direction, on the surface. Deep down inside, I am as crazy at Lataxe acts all the time. :-)
THREE CHEERS FOR WOODWORKERS WITH PASSION. WIthout passion, woodwork is not worth doing. I love to find passionate people. I have found many such people here on Knots. People like Derek, Philip, Ray, Rob, Mike, Samson, and the list goes on and on. BUT NOW, I have found another person who really brings such passion to great heights, David Savage. I am very happy to have learne of this man.
Have fun. STAY EXCITED. MAKE SOME NEW DRUGS. FIX the medecine field. Make some masterpieces of woodwork. Teach others. Let others know when you discover things that they might find useful. Use your creative juices to make this a better woodworking world. Do for woodworking what Obama is going to do for the UNITED STtates. IT IS A NEW DAY. IT IS A BRAVE NEW WORLD. Lets make this world a more beautiful and happy place by making more masterpieces.
There, how is that for passion? :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You write: "Do for woodworking what Obama is going to do for the United States."Excellent advice:
1) I will not build anything, and tax those who do.2) Skilled woodworkers will be handicapped with dull blades to level the playing field.3) I will create a tax on LN and LV tools, and redistribute that money to Stanley to spread the wealth a bit from the elites to the masses.4) I will pontificate on Knots about how much I love woodworking, and hate everything about tools, wood, and sawdust.5) I will send my wood to Washington, and Hope the government Changes it into a nice cabinet for my ladywife. Changes it in a way I can believe in.How wonderful.
---Pedro
Pedro,
Glad to see your passion about the future.
I knew you had it in you.
Politics ain't my forte. To me, nasty wood is more fun than nasty people.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Despair more than passion. Looks like the biggest con act in the history of politics. You know, the day after tomorrow, the speechifying will be over (good thing) and whoever got elected will get to work. I can't believe it will most likely be someone with no experience working, and the experienced guy will be stuck in a filibuster-proof minority.It's like hiring me to build furniture because I write better than David Savage.I think I like angry-Mel better too. Let me know if you're ever in Indiana. We'll build a wooden rocket and send Obama to the moon.
---Pedro
I can't believe it will most likely be someone with no experience working, and the experienced guy will be stuck in a filibuster-proof minority.
Come now, Pedro, you're smarter than that. You are a Republican, fine. But let's not be ridiculous.
:)That's what my mother keeps saying.I'm not sure I am smarter than that. I'll tell you what: come this time next year, I'll buy you a beer if things are improving, and you'll buy me one if it turns out the guy lets Pelosi and Reid run the country.
Might take longer than a year to reverse the damage Bushco has done in the last 8, but I think at the very least it's high time we try something different. When Bush took office, he wasn't my choice, but I hoped he succeeded. Double that when 911 happened. But unfortunately, despite his "experience" he let Rove and Cheney take control and drive us right into a ditch - all the while dividing us as a people. Shame.
Samson & Pedro,Now you lads, none of them "politics" here as we Brits find the whole American thang incomprehensible. Well, to be blunt and undiplomatic, they ALL look raving mad!Still, we have them here too, the powerful loonies with their Rationalist policies. They make new laws (10 a day) with an intention that SNAFUs immediately, along with 987 unforseen consequences that together achieve the exact opposite of the intent. I blame David Hume and them Frenchmen with their guillotine. Where is Edmund Burke when we need him? (Deed and buried, I'm afraid).Lataxe, who never watches the "news" as he hates getting his brain washed in someone else's meme-effluent.
I can't believe it will most likely be someone with no experience working, and the experienced guy will be stuck in a filibuster-proof minority.
Come now, Pedro, you're smarter than that. You are a Republican, fine. But let's not be ridiculous.
It's common knowledge he was only 148 days into his senatorial career when he started researching a run for the presidency. Tell me you believe the BS about change, that's fine. But I don't see how you can argue that he has experience. That's ridiculous.
Lee
Lee, all this is probably better suited to the Cafe. But let me just say that you seem to start from the bogus premise that federal office is the only "experience" that is relavant to being President. Being a lawyer, a Constitutional law professor, a state legislator for 8 years, and on an on is certainly relevant too:
http://obamasresume.org/
Besides, McCain took experience off the table as a debatable issue the minute he decided to name Palin as his running mate. The idea that 18 months as governor of a State with a population of around 600,000 (the Chicago metro area alone has 9.5 million), mayor of a tiny town, and sports caster makes her ready to be President of USA is just plain crazy.
Bush had been Governor of Texas. How'd that work out for us?
Oh, and one other thing:
Abe Lincoln's national political experience prior to running for and being elected president was limited to a single term in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1846 to 1848.
You're right, this probably does belong in the cafe. So out of respect to Mel, who started the thread, I will bow out of this discussion.
Lee
David Savage's portfolio (and school): http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/Derek Cohen's portfolio: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/index.htmlWho's the expert?
Edited 11/4/2008 6:46 am ET by Oilstone
Oilstone,
Who's the expert?
I believe Derek is a dedicated hobbyist, while Mr. Savage is clearly a professional. I believe both of these guys are going to develop good opinions, based on different experiences. Comparing websites, and a limited selection of projects is hardly fair.
Buster
...while Mr. Savage is clearly a professional....
You got that right.
Isn't tuning a tool only half the equation? How do you know if it really works? By building one beginner's level project a year? By trial planing a few boards? I'm personally interested in the fullness of woodworking, not cleaved-off aspects of the craft around which an internet pundit establishes his or her "expertise." The fact that Savage sells his woodworking is secondary to the fact that he offers his opinions on tools and techniques as somebody who, first and foremost, does a lot of woodworking. He's built a lot of furniture. He's taught a lot of people to build furniture. His primary function is not tool tinkering or becoming a recognized sharpening expert whilst developing a following on the internet.
On the other hand, I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival on the scene of an expert on sawing just the right hand side of a dovetail. I could use help with those.
Edited 11/4/2008 1:40 pm ET by Oilstone
I enjoy Dereks reviews. They're much better than most. He's a tool junkie, I accept that.
I don't stress about what Derek does, at least he is contributing something. It's better than the people who complain that he should do some real woodworking... but never bother to show their own. Where is the value in that? I come to Knots for entertainment, to gather information, and to see what other people are working on. Derek fits all these categories... I see none of these things in complaining what other people are doing.
Whoa... Did I somehow click the Velonews link in my Favorites by mistake? Is this thread about tool reviews or bicycles (both are my passion as well).
Lataxe - I too got my start in road racing on the Giant Cadex CF. I actually had better finishes on that than the Serotta that replaced it. I still have the Cadex hanging from the ceiling but now ride a Time CF with Campy and a Felt time trial rig.
I retired from road racing except for the time trial events. Next year I turn 60 and I look forward to setting some new TT marks in the new age bracket.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm better off having spent a considerable amount of time and money on bicycles rather than wood and tools. I'll probably never know, but a man has to have his toys, doesn't he?
Grant
>VelonewsSorry. My fault. I just mentioned to Philip that I am a metal rat and my favorite metal is making bike frames. Never intended to jack the thread.
That's great. Enjoy your woodworking.I'm probably prone to over thinking things. I suppose a tool review is a tool review. The relative skills of the reviewers probably don't mean much in the grand scheme of things. I see what you mean.
Edited 11/4/2008 5:52 pm ET by Oilstone
Pedro,
We will get together and build a wooden rocket. I really look forward to meeting you.
I am not angry. Anger never helps.
Whoever wins the election will have his hands tied. Remember the immortal words of the Sun King. What was his name, Louis XIV, or was it George W. Bush. The words were, "apres moi, le deluge".
Have fun. Don't get angry. Make masterpieces in the shop, and play with the kids a lot. I have spend the last three days helping my daughter and son in law move from one house to another one. I am VERY Tired.
Enjoy.
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Whoaaa there, Mel, take it easy boy....don't get too excited.
Listen, there is no need to elevate the guy to knighthood status just because he calls a spade a spade.
Consider coughing up the 17000 GBP fee plus living expenses, tool allowance and air tickets for a one year course , stay the course and then get excited. Now you can do a review based on experience rather than what you read.
Whilst I too appreciate good accurate information I think that correct spelling etc is not just "varnish"- it is essential. You don't present a silk purse to the King (read: customer/ student/next Chippendale to be) that is lined with leather made from a pig's ear) .
What in fact is the "central issue" you refer to here? Is it woodworking or teaching woodworking? And what are the real reasons for "formerly good woodworkers " fleeing the coup as you note?
See, I am looking at the underside of the coin....Philip Marcou
Phillip,
Based on your suggestion, I contacted Queen Elizabeth. She promised me that she would consider conferring Knighthood on David Savage.
"Sir David". That has a nice ring to it. The Queen said that she would also throw in some free spelling lessons.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Excellent. I hope you spoke English real good to her (:)(:)Philip Marcou
Mook,
"Excellent. I hope you spoke English real good to her (:)(:)"
Yup. Sure, youbetcha I dd, by golly.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:"Based on your suggestion, I contacted Queen Elizabeth. She promised me that she would consider conferring Knighthood on David Savage."Actually, honors are decided by the Prime Minister and merely confirmed by the monarch.The Victorian Order, however, is the one honor that the monarch confers herself, and, as such, is considered to be that much more meritorious.So you would ask for a KCVO (Knight Commander of the Victorian Order) which would allow you to be Sir Mel (if you had one!).You could approach the PM for a KCMG (Knight Commander of St. Michael and St. George) also known in the vernacular as "Kindly call me god". Or, you might wish to push your luck and ask for a GCMG (Knight Grand Cross of…). Aka, "God calls me god".This is the sixth most senior honor reserved for those who have rendered important services to the commonwealth and other foreign nations.FYI The Order of the Garter is the most senior.Regards,Hastings
H,"Order of the garter".That is mild S&M boodwar talk for a sultry Friday night, when one's hair and other things may be let down!But this to the side.I have been awaiting for my palace invitation for some time now. However, I fear I must face the disappointment of living without a gong of some sort to impress the more naive neighbours or gullible shop assistants. And me such a loyal servant of her maj for all them years!The ladywife, as a senior civil (not that civil) servant may nominate her staff for Queenie's garden party do. The successfull nominees get all excited, don ludricrously old-fashioned outfits, including bombastic hats in clashing pastels, then practice their bowing, curtsies and other scrapes whilst working themselves up into a paroxym of royalty-lust.It is not unknown for the more nervous ladies to "have an accident" under the finery, as Queenie approaches down the line to shake their trembling paw and ask what they do, in a cut-glass sort of fashion. And in their new knickerbockers, too! Cuh!If I ever got to the party I would simply eat all the cakes whilst the loyal subjects were distracted, awaiting The Presence with its grace and favour. Then I would seek out the champagne and wash down the cake with a gulp or two from the magnum......Lataxe, probably too hungry from his afternoon bike ride to think of owt but grub, just now.
My dear Lataxe
There is an alterate method to gaining Honours if waiting on her HRH to make up her mind is getting to you. You could do as an uncle (my mother's brother - the English side of the family) did and simply buy a village and the Lordship title that went with it. He made his dosh writing melodies, so could be forgiven for not knowing what to do with it all.
Of course, the downside of the above is that you would miss out on the cucumber sandwiches and the odd magnum or two.
Regards from Perth
Derek (both Australian and British citizen when I last looked at my passports)
Derek,Akshuley, I am Lord of All I Survey, despite what the Land Registry and the Duke of Westminster think. I wander all over the local countryside and call it mine, at least for the time I'm in it.Then there is my titles. I have many, which were bestowed by a Very High Authority (me). For example, I am Absolute Dictator of our hoosey in Galgate (except when the Empress is aboard). This means I can tell the cat to do anything I like, giving me a great sense of power. It would be even better were the cat to obey.*****Now, if I had known you was British I would have arranged your kidnap and transportation to Blighty, where you would be installed in my shed to act as tool expert and in other roles. Of coure, you might miss the sunshine and the surf, although I would take you to Pembrokeshire each summer with the grandchildren....... But I imagine the ball and chain around your ankle would rankle most. Then again, shurely all Aussies are used to that sort of thing by now? :-)Lataxe, just a rebellious serf in fact.PS I decided not to buy one o' them Blums you reviewed so well, despite still being without a 15-inch jackplane. That plane maker some way east of you has got my dosh, anyway, for a certain exciting project that will be revealed in due course.
I decided not to buy one o' them Blums you reviewed so well, despite still being without a 15-inch jackplane. That plane maker some way east of you has got my dosh, anyway, for a certain exciting project that will be revealed in due course.
Lataxe
"East" is not specific enough - it depends whether you are facing up or facing down!
I must say that those Blums are superb on medium hard (to me) timber. The Fore plane is especially worth trialling if you get a chance.
Regards from Perth
Derek (who knows a little something about project thangs)
Derek,Well, my personal bespoke plane maker (he that is exiled from another continent to Kiwistan) has not so far been induced to commit to making a jack plane. However, it is he who is east of you and making Speshul Thangs for little moi. So he's got all my pocket money for the next I-don't-know-how-long.I hadn't dismissed that Blum entirely; but there are so many well thought of alternatives in the way of jack planes.....Lataxe, full tilt down the slope now (still kilometers to slither yet).
Lataxe:"If I ever got to the party I would simply eat all the cakes whilst the loyal subjects were distracted, awaiting The Presence with its grace and favour."I don't think so! They are not very good and certainly nowhere near my wife's christmas cake. The last garden party I attended was at Hollyrood House in Edinburgh in 1975 so things might have changed since then, but I doubt for the better! A lot of dressing up for cucumber sandwiches.From a distance, it all looks rather silly don't you think?H
The gong has its price for a North American. Conrad Black lost his Canadian citizenship for accepting a knighthood, which is why he's now relaxing in a Florida slammer instead of a nice Canadian one, where they offer croissants in place of porridge.
Jim
Hastings,
Thank you for educating me on the fine points of being honored in England. I called the Queen, and she said she would confer Knighthood on David Savage. Based on what you told me, I think I have been had. I will bet that the person that I talked to was not the Queen, but some castle servant. This is a job that may best be done on site. So maybe you or Lataxe could pick out one of them honors and speak to the appropriate person, and make sure David Savage is adequately rewarded for all he has done for Jolly Ol England.
You know, we should start another thread to get input from all the denizens of Knotsland, and come up with a list of the top 100 woodworkers who are living and working. That might be a fun exercise. No need to rank them. They are either in or out of the top one hundred. I am sure that there will be a glitch or two in finalizing the list, but that will be a feature, not a flaw, in this exercise. What do you think? Could we come up with a credible list?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:I think it would be relatively easy to come with an unranked list. The arguments would start if you tried to put them in order!To get the ball rolling, I nominate Chippendale and Sheraton -not many would take issue that those two belong in the pantheon of top woodworkers.Hastings
Hello Philip,The guy who was interviewing the Rower, yes I will drop it, one day was talking about the logistics of emails. The interviewer is Leo Laporte. He is busy. He gets thousands of emails a day some times orders of magnitude more and he could not possibly answer his emails. He even has soft ware just to sort the stuff and he still can not deal with it all.He says now if someone he knows wants to get a email to him through all of that the person emails someone who knows Leo and they pass on the message.Could be Mr Savage may have a similar problem.Teaching is lucrative but can drive one nuts. (maybe we can cut the ones that have gone over to the dark side some slack cause they have been driven nuts). Nah you'r right.It would be better if one could insist on a test for basic tool/hand to eye coordination before signing a student but that is not easy to pull off long distance and is insulting to the general public; as opposed to a serious school with long term career goals.I have always said we need to hand them a screw driver and say here show me what this is for. If they try to clean their ears with the handle end it could be a sign of things to come.Here is an example of a bicycle related class. There are no stupid questions and yet some do explore the boundaries:With the bike suspended off the ground I was turning the pedals and the rear wheel was turning. The person kept staring intently at the front wheel and apparently ignoring my brilliant discourse. Finally I stopped and asked "Do you have a question?"The student says "Why yes I do . . . why isn't the front wheel turning?"Hey no laughing ! Ha ha This is a learning environment ! he he he. If you are going to, Ha ha, laugh you can Ha ha Ha ha take Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha a time out Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha.Class dismissed Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha.Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha.You see teaching is not easy !Positive Negative Optimist Pessimist I found myself pondering that long ago while riding along. At which point I came to the "Third Way"and have made a home there: PRAGMATIST.
Edited 11/2/2008 12:44 pm by roc
Ha Ha! I can't tell you the number of times a student has come up to me with a dull drill bit. "this thing doesn't work at all". I usually don't say anything and just switch the drill button from reverse to forward. Works everytime.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
>switch the drill button from reverse to forwardI hope you do it slowly and silently so they don't catch on. OOOHHH mean, mean!I once saw a "head mechanic" do this very thing (run the bit backwards while giving it his all). He was a good wrench but not much of a fabricator.Keep 'em guess'in
roc
Edited 11/5/2008 10:29 pm by roc
No doubt he recommends many first rate tools. But he seems to fall a bit too hard into that natural bent of believing that his own conclusions are universally applicable. He also leaves little room for the many subjective aspects of tool preference.
PS. It's obvious that you love him just because he agrees with your chant about buying LN and not "messing about" with anything else. ;-)
"But he seems to fall a bit too hard into that natural bent of believing that his own conclusions are universally applicable. He also leaves little room for the many subjective aspects of tool preference."This would be the problem of outspoken people... Rating tools is difficult as ones bias always shows through. One example is the norris style adjuster on the Veritas planes, some love them some hate them; to rate a plane low because of this shows bias.In the end to try to differntiate between high quality tool is a waste of time. As you point out their are subjective quallities that go beyond the flatness of the sole.Your cut at Mel is a little off, Savage doesn't seem to agree with Mel that much beyond the LN plane question.
From Mel's first post to start this thread:
"Maybe it is just a coincidence, but in every case in which I have experience with the tools he was reviewing, I had similar views. "
My "cut" was just a joke because Mel and I have disagreed on this point in many threads over a long time. I think old Stanley's are great for beginners, and Mel consistently counsels that beginners should by LNs (for among other reasons, they can be sold for full price on eBay later if you want).
>One example is the norris style adjusterMaybe I should start another thread but some body fill me in on the negatives of the norris style adjuster unless you are going to argue for the wood planes and the tap with a hammer method which I can see but is too far off the mark. For now lets keep it to the mechanical contraptions to move the blade.
Roc,
I can do that and maybe Buster can add anything I leave out:
Firstly, the adjuster mechanism in L/V planes is a simplified version of the original Norris mechanism.
The main criticism of the original Norris is that it has a lot of lost motion or backlash-which is unfortunate when one considers that the aim of this mechanism was to facilitate fine adjustment.The fine threads are vulnerable to ham fistedness.
Philip Marcou
Thanks Philip,Must say I been digesting/mulling. First I thought there was the slightest chance you were referring to the Stanley bedrock adjuster. I immediately dismissed that because you for darn sure know what a Norris adjuster is and all about them.So am feeling pretty dumb right now. I went down to the shop and turned the adjuster on my Veritas bevel up block plane. In about a fifth of a turn it takes up the slack lock to lock.The LN Stanley bedrocks I have seem to take full turns to take up the slack. I am exaggerating a little and have tweaked them for all I could to improve but you know what I mean.I was thinking maybe the thing people don't like is the ease with which wood shavings can get on the pin and ring when changing blades and so keep the blade from bedding.I imagine you have cut your threads to closer tolerance on the planes you make so there is almost no slack. I am pretty happy with my fifth of a turn considering the price. Not much choice in this range is there; other wise?PS: I enjoyed your web site. Out of high school I was setting up to make what I call gentleman's custom road touring and commuting bicycles on the scale that you make your planes. I was doing my first ones when the mountain bike craze took off in America. I don't care for mountain bikes much ( with the "oh look I broke another bike I must be "awesome"" mentality that comes with them) and everyone and their brother started making them so that was that. I hear I could sell in Australia but is a long way to go with a sample case if you know what I mean. I still dabble though. I will never give that up.a fellow metal man
roc
Edited 11/3/2008 3:58 am by roc
Roc,You have piqued my interest on the bicycle front. I'm a former racing cyclist now too fat and lazy to beat the sprogs off my back wheel up the hills. However, I do have a hanker for a made-to-measure velocipede that will suit my now less vigourous pedal-pushing, as well as the need to cart about the groceries, the camera or similar.I do have a friend who used to also race and ended up building racing frames, sold from his bicycle shop. I still ride, now and then, the one he built me from Reynolds 531 SL (superlight) in 1982. Those days are past for him, though but (he's a sailor and skier now). And most of the bespoke frame-makers makers hereabouts still prefer to do racing frames with maybe the odd tourer. But bespoke building is no longer in vogue, as them MTB and even the racing fraternity now want something with the right label on it. (Even cycling is now infested with fanboys). So there are very few bespoke builders left, when there used to be a couple of dozen or so just in the north of England.Do you have a small drawing or some such you could send of your concept? I presume it ain't made a-wood.Lataxe leather-erse
Have a look at Rivendell:
http://www.rivbike.com/They make lovely stuff. Of course I couldn't afford one, so I got a Trek road bike
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/portland/portland/
and fitted it with british aftermarket goodies to give it more soul. Sort of worked.
The seat (a B17 special in green):
http://www.brooksengland.com/
The bag:
http://www.carradice.co.uk/commuter-bike-bags/bike-bureau.shtml
Best,
---Pedro
>RivendellNot to be too harsh but:1 the catalog cover where the tourist were beside a pond getting water out of it by dipping water bottles in was ridiculous. Because: pond was shallow and muddy ! About any aware tourist would be concerned with geardia and other water born and would never do this. Run off from cattle up stream etc.2 The handlebar bag is ridiculous. The top flap latches/ hooks way in the front where you have to get off to hook and unhook. To compound the problem once it is open the wind will fight you when you close it. Any good touring handlebar bag will open to the rear (on the rider side of the bag). Most tourist will be in and out of the bag while riding. A good tourist can eat and take photos while ridding. Some can take off a jacket and My touring partner Woof (yah thats the right spelling) could even turn around back wards and film the group with a video camera then put it back in the bag.The bags are less than adequate.Unless I am out of touch the actual builders are Taiwanese so there may be a communication breakdown if you need to speak one on one.Some stuff to mull.Thanks for your interest
roc
Can't tell if you're pulling my leg or not. The bag is a pannier, so it hangs from the rack behind the seat to one side (or both if you have two). Hopefully, while riding you're not opening and rummaging through your panniers. I don't much care where it's made, but mine is made in England. Holds my powerbook and my dress shoes (I wear clip-ons to ride) on my way into work, though it can fit quite a bit more. Completely waterproof. Not made of nasty plasticky-like substance. Better pictures here:
http://www.wallbike.com/carradice/bikebureaunew.htmlBest,
---Pedro
Not pulling leg. I did not have time this morning to look at all sites you put up. I was referring to the canvas like handlebar bag that Rivendal offered a year ago or so.Custom Rivendale bikes made in Asia.>Pannier you just showedyes that looks like a good one ! Handle centered on top much easier to carry and deal with than handle on back upper side. Thanks
Edited 11/3/2008 11:43 pm by roc
rocman,
It's relatively easy to post pics here in Knots:
Assuming you're on a PV vs. MAC; In a Reply to a post, way down near the bottom of your screen you'll see a button that says Attach Files, click on that and another dialogue box will appear with 3 steps to be done in order.
1. Browse - Click on this button and you'll see another box Choose File allowing you to browse through your computer so you can find the pic/file that you want. When you see it, click on it and then click on Open. You will return to the previous screen.
2. Then click on Upload and wait for the file name to appear up near the top of the box. You will see something like Document Toast.DUN UploadedSize: 1KB, there will also be another message down near the bottom of the box -
Current List of Attached Documents
. Once this message appears you can either Browse/Upload another file/pic or click on Done. VERY important to wait for these messages to appear otherwise your file/pic may not attach.
3. Done Hmmmmm, not much to this.
It may sound complicated at first but after ye try it a time or three it'll be second nature to ya.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
AZMO
Nice ride ! Like the chainstay extension. What does your boss say when you ride it to work ? Down at the law firm or something like that I am imagining. Ha Ha HaBob
>Posting PicsThanks a million. I will take some snaps of said drawings and give it a go.Did you say is same for Mac as for PC?by the by I attempted to open Toast. DUN and said "no available app to open with"Just for a try here is a shot of the dovetails on my purple heart Klausz style cabinet makers bench. Some where we were speaking of chatoiance (sp) check this out (see other two pics) . . . there is no finish on my bench at all just hand planed and left it.Oops bear with while I switch computers . . .aaaannnndddd wur back. here goes nuthin' PS: seems easy enough as long as I remember to poke upload. On the last pic I found myself sitting there for ever like a dummy after I poked choose thinking I had poked upload.
Edited 6/20/2009 10:17 pm by roc
Wooow too close up !I have seen other peoples pics all supper close up now I see how that happens. Any thing I can do to get the whole thing in the view at once?Also since I am on a Mac do I need to "convert" the file some how so the PC people can open it?
Edited 11/6/2008 12:28 am by roc
roc , try resizing the pictures to a smaller size , I'm no expert but if the files are say 150kb or smaller they seem to work more better.
This Rift Red Oak vanity is an example of chatoyance .
dusty
>Vanity chatoyanceNice ! I bet it is fun to walk around and watch it shift.I will try 150
thanksHey did you get any viewable on your end of my post pics?
Edited 11/6/2008 12:59 am by roc
did not see any way to make 150. Cropped but not what I need I bet.
Edited 11/6/2008 7:13 pm by roc
roc , yes I could view them but they were like too close up er sumthun .
You need a photo editing program to resize , many of us use " Infranview"
Google it and download a copy it is free , then you browse your pictures folder and edit the pictures of choice and choose to save as . Also if your digital is typically preset for the smaller size files the pics will automatically be the right size .
hope that helps dusty
Roc and Dusty,
Not really, on a mac everything is easier. Once you've dragged the photo to your desktop from iPhoto, double click on that file. It will open in an application called Preview. In the Preview menu bar, select "Tools" and then "Adjust Size...". That should do it.
Best,
---Pedro
roc,
Did you say is same for Mac as for PC?
Ummm, the results are/can be the same but the process may be a bit different on a PC < not to be confused with a PV :-° > A file that ends with .jpg <called the suffix> is interchangeable with both MACs & PCs, as are .gif files, and many others. Nearly everyone posts .jpg files for that reason, as well as others.
On a MAC you may see something like Chooser instead of Choose File as on a PC, but the overall procedure should pretty much be the same, methinks.
Sorry, not a lot of experience with a MAC. If I had me druthers I'd be using a Unix/Linux box for I-Net access.
by the by I attempted to open Toast. DUN and said "no available app to open with"
Toast.DUN is just a shortcut from my Desktop that I used for an example - was kinda going thru the steps as I was typing my reply to you. Toast is my ISP and .DUN <Dial-Up Networking> is the file suffix/extension Windows gives to the file name. For you dial-up antiques like me, Toast.net is a great service <not affiliated in any way>.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Dear leather-erse,Affirmative on drawings stop.Need info on how to put pics up on this site; have never done this stop.(Ok I am getting tired of being cute)Won't be able to write again for about nine hours because I am going to work shortly.Original design details that will not disappoint.On the order of complete bike with steel Columbus frame; 19 lb with mud guards and a Blackburn rack. Can offer custom brazed on rack. Warning: for commuting or credit card touring. Has tubular tires. (watch those pot holes) Makes sense to have ultra light for all the stop and go. I have never destroyed a wheel on a pot hole but that is just me.Of course will build with wire on tires.Thanks for your interest
roc
Edited 11/3/2008 10:51 am by roc (roc2013)
Roc,Tubs!? You are mad.Now, I have boxes of still-shiney parts, not to mention fine wheels of this and that kind. I even have a Brooks leather saddle with a titanium frame! Also some Carradice panniers (made just 40 miles from where I live). There is also a frame or 5 kicking around the place, including that Giant Cadex carbon fibre thing that (despite it's Far East origin) is the best frame I ever raced (even better than the two bespoke steelers).I visualise a made-to measure frame with the vibration-killing attribute of carbon fibre, despite it's other great attribute of stiffnes, especially at 30mph down the ratty road into Dentdale with 190 llbs aboard. But it must have all them attachments for guards, panniers and similar, me having to do the shopping on the way home. I might even want one o' them wicker baskets on the front. :-)Then there's the dragless dynamo and the 100 watt dipable beam.....Lataxe, whose terminal velocity increases each week
Never mind the generators, try one of these:
http://www.dinottelighting.com/
I've used one for the past two years and it works wonderfully. Plenty bright enough despite its LED nature.
Best,
---Pedro
Lataxe,I own a nimble, aluminum, fire engine red Klein Quantum, perfectly adept at most road riding situations. To keep this relevant to the main thread, I've noticed that my bicycle's adjusting mechanism exhibits some serious backlash, namely my wife's constant "reminders" that I adjust to a regular riding schedule. Seems there is some sort of "debate" about how much a man is allowed to love mint chocolate chip ice cream in his own house and his appearance in tight Lycra cycling togs because of it. A gentle and loving rejoinder to my wife goes somewhat like "If you can't stand the light, don't look at the sun." A finger snap and a hasty exit immediately follows said rejoinder.Based on my own experience, it is my own informed opinion that novice riders should abstain from aluminum frame bicycles, due to its known predilection for inducing prolonged lethargy and unbridled sloth amongst the otherwise sprightly man. It should be barely hinted that the Klein is most excellently made and is of high quality, which are the only reasons that permits its inclusion as a recommended bike.Cheers,Seth
Sorry. I may beee Mad. Not sure. Hard to tell from where I sit.I like the way the tubulars hisss on the pavement ! Way light rims !>Carbon fiber
yep even Ferrari uses it. Buuuuttttt alas, I am a silver and brass brazing sort. I love to watch that silver run around to make a jewelry quality joint. I never go in for the epoxy and funny black cloth stuff.I am an anachronism. That is about the size of it.Sounds like you know what you want though. I gotta respect that !May the road rise up to meet you and the wind always be at your back.
roc
Roc,We anachronisms must stick togther, as The Reaper may otherwise pull us down into his pit!As to the wind in the back: there was a time when the wind was always in my face because I went so fast. :-) Ah, those days are over and now I always look for a friendly wind dirction to go out against, so there's some chance my rotting body will get a push home. All it took to increase speed at one time was the extra-large beans on toast followed by apple pie and ice cream (large) in the cafe, half way 'round the training run - along with the prospect of beating naive young sprogs for the various village signs on the way home. (Do you sprint for signs over there)? Now I am just a pharter, blooping along the lanes and inclined to stop when a familiar turn in the road reveals a beautiful vista to photograph. There was never time to look at the view in former days, as them sprogs must be watched carefully for any attempt to jump off the front in a vain attempt to steal that next village sign.The carbon fibre Cadex seduced me, I'm afraid. I rode Reynolds 531SL and a bit of exotic Colombus for years; but that CF is so good at being super-stiff whilst taking out the high-pitched vibration that imparts a soar nether after an hour or five.Sometimes I wonder if a wooden laminate frame might work.....Lataxe, who finds it harder to accelerate these days (power-to-weight ratio slipped somewhat - I blame the ladywife's Gaggia ice cream maker).
I think we need ta connect the presta pump to your head Lataxe. Time to inflate you up a bit and get ya rolling a bit faster, and a bit longer. The problem is you think you have to go as fast you did then to dust the sprogs. You have to be more clever now and get them to chase to the sign and and then let them know, "not that sign the next one", in which case they will be sprinted out and you have been followin the wheel and you can ease around them to the front.
Been a good summer on the bike for me, nd att 55 with my busted up leg, I managed some 34mph (54kpm) sprints at the end of rides so I could at least hang.
I know a guy who rides and races this bike, not a light as my CF bikes. But it is really kewl. http://www.calfeedesign.com/bamboo.htm 10yr warranty is incredible to me, just don't let the termites near!
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Sire, With apologies to Roc , but if we are to talk of bikes let us talk of Bikes, especially as you sign off as "Lataxe, who finds it harder to accelerate these days (power-to-weight ratio slipped somewhat...."
Do not despair, the answer is readily to hand. I re-discovered mine some time ago and now have no worries of power to weight ratios, or evil chains and uncomfortable seats. Neither have I got wet yet (that is saying a lot- this is New Zee), as I am able to breeze merrily along and dodge the showers.Philip Marcou
Oooooh!How lovely. I became a father shortly after totaling my last bike, and have been too afraid to ride since. I miss it like crazy though. It's the one tough sacrifice I've made for my family. All the others (drink, cigarettes, late nights philosophizing with friends) were easy by comparison.Keep the rubber side down.
---Pedro
Philip,Shurely shome mishtake - that must be real hard to pedal up the hills......But wait! There are no pedals and only one o' them cheatin' gubbins (that great pollutin' enjin). Do you want yer legs to drop off through insufficient use!? You know that'll happen. All you will have will be a big forearm from twistin' the throttle. Also, where is the photo of the rider, inclusive of Kaiser helmet-mit-spike, cut-off denim jacket, various dangle-chains and a pair of jeans that stand up by themselves? Don't forget to put on the boots with the cuban heels and the wings on the ankles. Oh and the mirror dark glasses.Meanwhile I will stick to them lightweight proper two-wheelers. I was hoping Roc had devised a frame with negative weight, made of angel's bones or some other exotic material he found buried in the Utah desert, which might thereby improve my own P/W index, at least whilst I was upon it.Lataxe
Lataxe,
glad to year you too are a biker. We are all riding a bit slower than 20 years ago. I had a mountain bike for years. Last year I got a Trek 7.5 FX. Very nice. It is a crossover. They call it a "fitness" bike. Very light. No frills. No shock absorbers. Very comfortable. My wife and I go a few times a week. We found a bike path that has a nice barbeque place alongside it. We stop for a nice BBQ sandwich after the trip. Bikes and BBQ. What a combo.
I like Philip's bike better than mine.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
roc,
I had the road rise up to meet me once. It broke my wrist when we met.
Ray, the (motor) cyclist
Jointerswork,I hate when that happens. People say "aren't you afraid of falling". I say no falling is fun it is just hitting the pavement that ruins your day.Latax,Sprint. Sprint ? Sprint ? ? that word sounds familiar. I am sure I used to do it. Just can't remember what "it" is. : )Interesting story. A bit cruel but interesting. Back when I was a teenager my best friend and I used to ride together. He had a ten speed first. I just put make shift toe straps and a straight bar on my stingray three speed and went like that for a while.Then something clicked and I found this is what I was meant to do. No record setter but of all the sports in the world this is the only one I am at least competent at. Ok so we start to get serious and race and ride fifty milers all the time together etc.Every time we got back off the highway and was nearing our last turn for the street we both lived on, this stout kid foot ball type would look over at me with an evil look and say SprintSprintSprint ! He knew he could always beat me. I am a climber not a sprinter.Ok I start to get into the longer distances centuries and 120's etc.He decides to do a sanctioned century with me.When we got back he hung up his bike and never rode again. Discovering two stroke dirt bikes may have had something to do with that. ha ha ha But I like to think I kicked his butt thoroughly. Ha ha ha a ha ha ha. (evil grin)
Roc,
Another VeloHead here as well. I am tooobstinate to concede that I am a gentleman and to old to ride my racing bike like Lataxe. He is definately pulling your leg on the bit about not getting up the hill, I have checked his rides out and he gets up and over some nice ones.
I would enjoy seeing your bike design as well. There are about 30 custom frame builders around, building many different bikes. Some great steel builders, doing classics, single speed commuter/milk run bikes, 29" MTB bikes. Most are reasonable in price, though some border on the absurb.
I enjoy my new 29" MTB bike, and personally feel that if don't Mountain Bike you are cheating yourself from the fun of being a kid on a bike. It always gives me a laugh! I don't break my bikes, most of my frenz don't either. We let the copy people at the magazines write what they want to sell magazines. A couple of my riding friends have custom Lenz 29rs, and they do some serious rides. From Mexico to Utah on the Arizona trail without support.
I built a 3 high bike with my son a few years back. Just a cobbled together bits of junk frames. The saddle sits 6' high and it is a kick to ride. It was a large touring frame, a medium size mountain frame, and a BMX bike stacked up and welded together. Some spacers for the steerer tube, all 1" size. An extra rear triangle on the bottom bike so you don't fall over backwards all the time, hehe. Gotta duck for the street signs though!
Morgan
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Don't get me wrong I have done my share of the fat in the dirt thing. Got some of my best scars that way : )I'll put some thing up some where as soon as I figure out how. Only been on line for less than two years now so still getting this pinned down.I came home with a bug to night. Exhausted ! ! ! Slept it off a bit so am poking the keys a bit now. But off on Tuesday so who knows.Glad to meet you bike people. The average none biker does not appreciate just how wondrous the bicycle machine is. Light, fast, efficient.>triple level bikewow that has got to turn some heads ! Your son is lucky you do stuff like that with him. That is totally excellent.later
roc
OK since this has 'turned' into a VeloWood thread, Thought I wood post a shot of the triple for you. No pretty, not nice, just plain fun. Hey he won several prize giveaways for the crazy bike of the event!
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I can do that and maybe Buster can add anything I leave out
Your the expert. I'm just a simple user.
Samson,
I believe that many "big names" become pretty "sure of themselves", and they attain a flaw that psychologists call ethnocentrism = if I feel this way, then everyone must.
Actually, I enjoy a person who feels strongly about his ideas, even if others dont. I believe that this guy has paid his dues. If he has come to a conclusion that tool A is not so good, he may or may not agree with others, but his conclusions warrant my looking further into it.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, it might be that "ethnocentrism" is just a polite way of saying "over-inflated ego". ;-)I, too, like people who are decisive and authoritative, and have the nicks and scratches to prove that they have paid their dues. But, I much prefer reviewers who openly state what their preferences are, and couch their reviews accordingly - along the lines of "I don't like "X" for "Y" reason, but it might be perfectly suitable for people who prefer A, B, or C."Let's face it. The only thing universally suitable to everyone is gravity. Even then, some might prefer to have less. ;-)
Ralph,
I agree with you. GRAVITY SUCKS.
So you like people who make their biases clear. I can understand that. It even makes sense.
But not everything in life makes sense. Life has to have some spice. I love a "real curmudgeon". I dislike "curmudgeon wannabees" who get it wrong and beat up on people to make themselves feel better. But I like curmudgeons like Savage who aren't dumping on anyone. They just get up and say what they have learned about things, and don't explain why. Given Savage's long history of making masterpieces of woodwork and of teaching other woodworkers to become great, I will eagerly listen to what his experiences with various tools is, and I will value that information, even if he doesn't give me any explanations. Smart, capable people are worth paying attention to, even if they can't spell. I don't mind if a person gets haughty with me, if he has consistently produces masterpieces for 30 years. Of course, that is a small set of people.
Thanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
What happened? No pictures of dovetails came up.
I don't think you should worry too much about thread hijacking-it is the "general discussion" section anyway, but also , as long as there is no malicious intent or other ulterior underhand motive I can't see why some folk lose their rag on this thing. There is a metal work forum , in particular, where they go to extremes on the subject-the result is a dull boring forum with no character.
I mean, how else can we attract hordes of goblins, trolls etc to chat with?
Not sure why you no get. Pics taken with iPhone. is in my Mac iPhoto. Sorry not savvy on my end.
Hi Roc,
This happens when you select pictures in iPhoto and click the email button at the bottom of the iPhoto window. Instead, to make them viewable to PC users, select the pictures you want in iPhoto and drag them to the desktop first. This will save them as jpegs. Then attach these files from your desktop to your email and send them. Philip won't have any problems then.
Hope this helps.
---Pedro
Thank you all for the responses on pic posting.At least I got us back to looking at stuff made of wood. The next trick is get back to David Savage. I admit ignorance there but I want to spend more time looking at his modern looking furniture. Hey at least people can sit on it and it is attractive. I can not say that for at least one builder that I won't mention that I still follow because I like what he was and what he did in the past. Before he started making huge, ugly door stops.Not Mr Savage. I want to be clear I am referring to my unnamed artist/craftsman.The light areas on my bench top that I called chatoyance glows iridescent under incandescent lights like a humming bird's iridescence. It is not light colored it is reflecting light back and other wise looks same shade as normal purple heart.I threw in some other pics to break the monotony for those who can appreciate them.Duplicates cause I am experimenting.Thanks for your patience
rocEdited 11/6/2008 4:36 pm by roc
Edited 11/6/2008 7:14 pm by roc
Lovely bench. Why square dogs rather than round? Can you use a holdfast in a square dog hole?
Dragging to desk top and opening in Preview, alone, (flowers) did not help over mag problem.I must say it simplifies sorting the pics from a long list. That helps !Cropped to ~ 150 now so hopefully this time for sure. I forgot the 150 KB I was hopping under 300 would do it.Will respond to questions after I pin this down ( I hope). Have not read many of new posts yet.Geronimo !PS: Very little need for hold fast. None so far. Not putting down hold fasts. I will drill and install when needed. There are many areas of wood working I have not explored apparently. Frank Klausz does not use hold fasts. He uses a clamp for holding a stack of drawer sides for dovetailing, for example, so that is what I am exploring first before moving on to holdfasts. I am not saying this is the end all be all though for me personally it may be all I require.
Hi Chief,
Preview will reduce image size (e.g. 8x5 inches to 4x6 inches) by doing Tools then Adjust Size.To reduce file size in preview select File then Save As then lower the resolution on the jpeg slider.Your bench: okay, no holdfasts but why square over round dogs? I haven't built my bench yet, and I'm curious.
Best,
---Pedro
Ok I am needing a break.Am paying attention to inch size over KB this time
Are non Mac people getting viewable pics?(Will remove all my trash once I get back to thread.)Pedro: There is a previous bench dog thread here somewhere when we hashed all that out. I will look up and post it. Will respond latter. Thanks again !encore
later
roc aka "chief"
Roc,Get Photoshop album (free download from Adobe).Use the File/Export dialogue to reduce any common file type (TIFF, JPEG for example) in both size (pixels X pixels) and quality. 600 X 800 pixels at quality 5 (of 12) will make a 50 - 100Kb file that fits in most people's browser window and retains sufficient quality for web viewing.Don't use flash to take pics of wood, unless you can bounce it off a white wall or ceiling. This avoids them burn-out patches and other harsh reflections. Without flash, you might need a tripod, beanbag or other solid support to keep the camera still if the shutter speed is less than 1/60th of a second, in a dim shed.Make sure you have the right white balance set on your camera to suit the lighting you use (sunlight, daylight/shade, tungsten, fluorescent or whatever). This keeps the colours looking real. Many digicams have "auto white balance" which works reasonably well except in tungsten (bulb) lght, when things tend to remain yellah.Use the close-up button/switch (usually represented as a small flower on a camera button or menu-choice) to take close-ups and avoid out-of-focus blur of your near-the-lens subjects.Ride the bicycle after,not before, photographing stuff, otherwise the knee trembles from that last climb will cause blur or even a camera drop-shatter event.Lataxe of the Third Eye.PS Square bench holes are for old-fashioned and unhip people, naturally. :-)
All,
What exactly was it that made David Savage, anyway? Was it the same thing that made Little Stevie Wonder? That made George Strait? Marvin Gaye? What made Garrett Hack? (I already know what it was that made ...
Ray Pine)
Latax, Latax. LataxI have an iPhone that's all. Not flash., Shutter speed ? white balance? close-up button? You have mistook me for a coolguy camera type.I can't afford any more hobbies in time or bucks so don't hold your breath. (I know you won't)>Harsh reflections well the ones off the wood can't be helped cause it is so smooth and shiny from my awesomely sharpened plane blades. Like glass I tell ya : ) ha, ha, ha,Thanks for your advice ! I copied your wisdom into my files. If I ever get a real camera I will be following what you have wrote.
Edited 11/8/2008 12:27 am by roc
Roc,In your photo "chat"--- is the area just below the hotspot what you are referring to as "chatoyance"? If so and the photo is representative of the effect, it's rather interesting. Would be great to use in two opposing panels.
Is it recognizable in the raw unfinished wood?It's hard to discern on the other shot (with dovetail) as significantly different than "muddy"---overall tone wise.BB
boilerbay>Area bellow hotspotYes that is it and it is a pretty good rep of what it looks like. No kidding it looks like you can see down into the wood an inch and is all bright like a humming bird as if it lights up from electric light !>Is it recognizable in the raw unfinished wood?dude this is raw unfinished wood unless you are counting hand planing the surface as finish.As I said to Latax; Harsh reflections off the wood can't be helped cause it is so smooth and shiny from my awesomely sharpened plane blades. Like glass I tell ya : ) ha, ha, ha,>other shot (with dovetail)There is none of the chat. on other shot (with dovetail) just nice grain. All the irredesence was in that narrow section of the bench on that one plank. It even looks like a big fat ribon that is twisted down in the wood.take care BB
roc
Edited 11/8/2008 1:03 am by roc
> Why rectangular dogs over round/metalOk back again. I had been running on just an apple and coffee all day and bonked.Still haven't caught up but yes roger on free download from Adobe will do reconnaissance. Thanks.Nothing like writing a novel but here goes.Probably can be summed up with phrases like "Listen to Mother" and "Because I say so and I know what is best for you" I am not saying that but the master cabinet makers still alive and recently past are saying that to both of us. Since that does not answer your question . . . Le Novel . . .I wanted wood dogs to start. I wanted the relative softness of the wood to prevent dings without adding the tedious chip of wood that Frank K. places against his steel dogs for this purpose.I scrub plane across the grain often and with great vigor. I call it exercise. It seems to me that the round dogs for this purpose would tend to rotate and dig in. It is probably silly but the camming effect this has on the table creeps me out. One can have two round dogs on each end of wide stock but that is a different bench design and the rectangular work well one dog on each end and not much force on vise handle. My goal with this bench was the tail vise for drawer making etc.I like the idea of being able to put an extra long dog in and have it protrude well up into some restoration joint I am attempting to pull apart (have not so far used it for that).The little angled bit at the top of the round dogs (holes not angled) to simulate the true angle of the rectangle bench hole for downward holding force seems limited. Often I have my dogs two inches above the surface to hold a large work. If I did this with round dogs the round part would be "gripping" the work and that seems less than adequate for grip and nonmaring jaw.I don't grip round or odd shapes much so I don't need dogs that rotate to accommodate those shapes. If I do I will make custom bits to compensate or start drilling holes in my bench.THE MAIN POINT I WANT TO MAKE IS THERE IS A LOT TO BE SAID FOR THE OLD WAYS IN WOOD WORKING. THE KLAUSZ BENCH IS THAT. THINGS I CAN NOT ARTICULATE AT THIS POINT IN MY EDUCATION. . I WANT TO START THERE AND EXPLORE IT FOR NOW. HARD TO GO WRONG IMO.First I explored the limitations of the Japanese planing beams, Which I used to make my Klausz bench. I moved on from the beams but there is still allot to be said for them in limited space. See Toshio Odate's books. Very worth while spending a year or so just with his teachings ! No dogs except one stop unless you make up something for a special application.I wanted to make allot of dove tailed drawers. The Klausz bench is the way to go there ! I like classical wood working, steel bicycles, classical music, classic cars, Lauren Bacall. I am just an old fart. Doesn't mean tomorrow I won't be drilling round holes in my bench or making a carving benchhttp://www.veritastools.com/Products/Page.aspx?p=219Or listening to Physical Cities by The Bad Plus album = Prog. which I find the most refreshing thing I have heard in decades.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81YcNs82kyAThe dog in my pic you see is a bit under size. Made from stock I had lying around. I have yet to make final, proper dogs. May make from bubinga (stronger). Wanted to see if purple heart was strong enough and so far not a whimper.Will probably put hard leather ( called horse butt leather) pads on contact area of dogs. Any one have suggestions /experience there?For now I am focusing on our dining table for Thanks Giving. Ran into a grain/design snag. Came up with "brilliant" solution. Problem is will add allot more work to the table top. Probably will miss Thanks Giving target if I go with it.Pedro: Thanks for opening my eyes to what was there in front of me all along. I have had no time or motivation to explore the photo end of things until now. Usually I am better prepared. Maybe this winter I will learn the rudiments. Made progress today though ! Learned stuff ! Thanks to you and others !roc aka "chief"PS: Tread as promisedWell any way see: Work bench> Bench dogs . . .round or square? Oct -9 11:12 pm rocOf coarse go back to beginning and read all of it. Not just my drivel.Edited 11/8/2008 12:39 am by roc
Edited 11/8/2008 12:42 am by roc
>no holdfasts, square over round dogsI just viewed this video and thought of you.Is worth a look at this video of Philip Lowe cutting some largish dovetails using his unique work bench which is a design he came up with.http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/bookcase-video/index.aspWhat I am pointing out is he does not use holdfasts and just clamps the work. He is a person I would consider one of the great masters working today. When there is restoration work to be done to million dollar plus period pieces he is on the short list of who they consult.Teaching and working since 1968 consistently to present. He must know sumpin.I have never used a holdfast but perhaps it just does not have the holding power that a clamp with a jaw that has larger surface area to prevent the work from pivoting around. Not arguing against something I don't know about; just giving more grist for your mill.Here is the link to the history behind his benchhttp://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ProjectsAndDesign/ProjectsAndDesignPDF.aspx?id=2654One advantage to his type of bench is it works well in the middle of the room because it has so much ballast yet fairly easy to break down to move it. Can clamp all around the edge. On my bench the tool tray prevents this.have fun
roc
I just took the time to read most of David Savage's web-site. My impression was he is opinionated but.. so am I. He just says what he thinks which IMO doesn't leave any guessing between the lines and keeps life simple. There is something about him that tells me we are on the same page for the most part.
Thanks for the link...
Sarge..
Sarge,Somehow I can't see you making that swoopy-pointy stuff though..... :-)Anyway, you heard it here first:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=42319.8Lataxe
I didn't look at his furniture... just the articles on tools. Latter on the funiture if time allows. Some I agree with.. some I find myself middle of the road with and some I dis-agreed with. But... I absolutely had no problem determining his intent when he stated something regardless of if I agreed or not. That in itself takes away assuming which can be very mis-leading as I see it.
I did not see your original post you linked but.... there are many post I don't see as I try to spend more time down-stairs in the shop making an effort regardless of outcome than upstairs on the computer talking about making an effort or praising someone else's... whatever that means which is probably nothing of great significance. :>)
Downstairs I go to construct a closet shoe rack. Hope my jar of bent 16 penny nails runneth over as I may need all of them on this major project. I was running a bit short after the arc I made during the rains a few years back. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
I agree with you fully on David Savage. This guy has paid his dues, and he keeps paying them. He tries hard, at a cost to himself, to stay distant from the tool makers. This allows him to be taken seriously when he comments on the tools. Some complained that David does not spell well or use the English language with great skill. To me, that is irrelevant. The three things that are relevant are:
1) he really is a top notch woodworker
2) he has no ties to the tool makers.
3) he is not reviewing tools, but commenting on those tools which served him well in his woodworking and which did not.
4) In those areas in which we have used the same tools, he and I came to the same conclusions.Take those four facts together, and that tells me that this is a guy I want to hear a lot from in the future. Someone was joshing with me because I stated Fact 4 in a previous message, and indicated that I am just looking for someone who agrees with me. That isn't even worth commenting on. The fact that we independently came to similar conclusions a number of times tells me that we share some values. All four facts together tell me this is a guy I can learn a lot from, and whose words are believable. Some have commented that he is haughty, pompous, etc. So what? I don't want this guy for a best friend. I just want to learn about more of his experiences in woodworking and with different tools. Given his accomplishments, he can be as haughty and pompous as he wants. I find that to be easily ignored, given the good stuff there is to learn from him. Lataxe keeps repeating that David makes pointy modern things. My guess is whith his skills, Savage could make any type of furniture he wants, and still be one of the best makers around. Haven't heard from you in a while. Good to "see" you again.
I was happy to pass Savage's website around. BUT I did want to check to see if he is as good as he seemed to me. From what I have heard, he undoubtedly is. Richard Jones is also a man to be believed.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
So what? I don't want this guy for a best friend. I just want to learn about more of his experiences in woodworking and with different tools.
Well said. The toes Savage steps on aren't worth worrying about.
Given his accomplishments, he can be as haughty and pompous as he wants.
Probably has to be this way to be heard above the din of rank amateurs, the relatively unskilled, and self-published gurus who hand out advice like it was Pez.
Edited 11/8/2008 9:49 am ET by UrbaneLegend
Charles!I knew ye'd be a fan of that Savage style - right up your alley, so to speak. His writings are certainly entertaining and no doubt contain wisdom, if one can separate it out from the chuffing and bombast. All in all, he's certainly worth an in-depth read.Of course, since only one or two such as Richard actually know and experience the real bloke, what you and Mel are getting all starry-eyed about is in fact a package of web-based rhetoric.... Still, those inclined to be fan or groupie must have someone to idolise and why not the uncompromising Mr Savage (or rather, his avatar). Lataxe, wary of all value-sharers (they tend to despise them other ones not being shared).
Of course, since only one or two such as Richard actually know and experience the real bloke...
Really?
Lataxe,
I have heard that there is no such person as David Savage, but that you publish under that name, just as you sometimes use the name Larry Williams and Napie. As you know, I am an Anglican nun in East Orange, New Jersey. Our Order specializes in caring for destitute woodworkers. I see Charles has picked up his 96th different Knots name, but I may have missed some. It really floored me when I realized that he is also Adam Cherubini. It is amazing how the anonymity of the web gives us the courage to seem like anything we'd like to sound like. Some people find courage in a bottle. Others find it in web-anonymity. Both groups are to be pitied. I guess that I also have erred along these paths, so now I am going to tell everyone who I really am. I AM BARACK OBAMA. There, I have said it. I feel better already. I need some good people for my Cabinet. Would you like to be Secretary of Philosophical Meanderings?I hope our countries can work well together. I am willing to speak to your Queen without preconditions. But she must be frisked before we meet in the same room. Can't be too careful, you know. You know, if I find out that Charles is also messaging under the names of Kidderville Acres, perizoqui, and OldDusty, I am going to be very disappointed. Heck, Charles may be posting as Larry Williams, who I thought was you. Just can't figure out such things anymore. As the new president, I am going to clean up this mess. Everybody will be limited to 15 alternative web names. Of course, if a person makes a donation which is significant, I could make an exception. Have fun,
Everyman or alternatively,Sic transit Gloria,
MorpheusMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It is true, I am Charles, but when using my perizoqui persona, I prefer to be called Carlos.
Ola Carlos,
Yo supe que eres Charles.
Tu amigo,
Mel
PS - if this is incorrect Spanish, which is most certainly is, please blame my translation program. It sometimes works much like my mind. :-)
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Carlos,I have always envisioned you as something of a snappy hyena, albeit quite cuddly when stressed by a piece of naughty-wood and in need of a stroke or even a bone to chew. :-)Lataxe
Bah! Knoty (or naughty) wood scares me not one bit! I've just cut an absolutely PERFECT set of tails in red oak. I hate this wood for handwork, but I've got loads salvaged from various built-ins and in my current financial straits I have few alternatives. And so, after a day building a sharpening jig for my LN DT saw, I sharpened it and got to work. Perfect I say! Why I could clear a mountain in a single leap.Those tails are enough to make a grown man cry.
---Pedro-the-jackal
Speaking of my dovetailing prowess, here's two pictures of me making the darned things.
---Pedro
Pedro , Somehow you are much younger and shorter then I had you pictured .
dusty
It's an optical illusion. I actually have my bench ten feet off the ground and use a five foot bowsaw.
Pedro,
Ok, if we are showing off dovetails, here's mine:
http://www.lonniebird.com
Guess it's time for my 15 minutes of fame!
Lee
p.s. yes that's really me
Hi Lee,
Ah yes, yours are definitely better than mine. How did you like the class? I've never taken one (anywhere) and am on the fence as to whether or not they'd be worth it. Truth be told, I mostly want to go just to hang out with other woodworkers for a day. Were it not for Knots, I'd feel like I was woodworking in a vacuum.Congrats on your dovetail excellence! I haven't even tried half-blinds yet, though I will for my current project. This will be done by Sunday after Thanksgiving. Mark my words!
Best regards,
---Pedro
Pedro,There are many things that can be learnt at an accelerated rate via one-to-N (or even one-to-one) classes. There is both the seeing an expert do it (unedited, so much more real than a video) but also the oportunity to interrogate that expert for all the nuances of his tricks.Now, some lads (and lasses) prefer to watch and copy, without asking the questions or getting into the academics of the subject. My daughter No. 2 is like this and seems to grasp how-to intuitively via watching with her eyes. She copies, feels it and seems to then understand enough to do it straight off. But you are an academic by trade.....Personally I can't be doing with a taciturn teacher as my understanding has to have both the physical (watching a demo) side but also the intellectual bits. I see that "sawin' like that" gets the desired result but I want to know why, why, why as well. So, you need the right kind of teacher to suit your learning habits. Some teachers are very taciturn folk; and maybe also narrow-minded. ("My way is the only way and stop them stoopid questions"). Others are not only voluble but also obsessed and can't wait to fill your ear with a thousand considerations they have pondered and investigated.Me, I like the latter kind. Some find the ear-fillers too much and suffer confusion or data-overload. But how about you?LataxePS You must stop messin' with them elixir of yoof drugs as your motor control of that bowsaw has regressed. Also, I think I see dribble on yer bib.
Caballero,
Thank you for the advice. What you say makes good sense. In school I was always that annoying kid in the front row with his hand up asking question after question. Drove some of my classmates (the ones who just wanted to get done early and go about their social lives) nuts, but I think I got a far better education because of it.I've got two schools within a reasonable distance: Mark Adams' and Kelly Mehler's. I wonder if anyone on this thread can tell me anything about these gentlemen.I also have a woodworking club in town that I've thought of joining, but they seem like an all-powertool crowd, so I'm less inclined. I should probably try it out before passing judgement though.Just got done surfacing with a Marcou. Really must find a way to justify a Jack to the Missus.
Best,
Pedro
Pedro,Soon there will be tempting objects from the Exile in Kiwistan. You had better start practicing your money-sequestering techniques now!If your ladywife is raising an eyebrow and curling the lip a tad at your WW tool needs then you must distract her with a bauble or frippery. Just ensure that the frip has great bang for buck, as most of your bucks will need to go to New Zealand, in due course.Lataxe, a plane-pusher.
Now now, quit being a tease, and tell us some more...
Pedro,You must until the Madcoos are let out from their paddock to gambol and play. Perhaps Hiz Eggzellency will deign to make a remark or two?Or even post a picture.............?Lataxe, a captive customer, scraping pounds and shillings together from the bottom of his now sadly thin groat-bag.
Lataxe old chap,
My only question is: Will he have a payment plan? If so, I'm in. I need to send him the first installment so I can get in on the ground level. I don't even know what it is he has conjured up, but if you're excited about it, I am too.
Our weak American dollar is much better off transferred in the form of New Zealand pounds (as in tools that weigh pounds -#) Or, in your language, kilo's ;)
Lee
"Our weak American dollar is much better off transferred in the form of New Zealand pounds"
My man, you are an Economist of Note- you show a thorough understanding indeed.
In addition, your credit rating is A-one, as was proven when your metal (one for Ray there) was tested by the Wicked Krook some time back. So no worries about a credit crunch....Philip Marcou
Philip,
Good to know I'm in good credit standing with you. Feel free to tempt me via email telemarketing when the need arises ;-)
Lee
Sire,
"You must (wait) until the Madcoos are let out from their paddock to gambol and play. Perhaps Hiz Eggzellency will deign to make a remark or two."
I yam too busy, labouring and sweating at the scene of the birth-the local vet is on 5 minute notice . Four down and one to go- as long as it emerges tote first all will be well, I believe.
It is not politic to display pictures of unclaimed stock on this here august forum, but here you can see that one cat needs riding lessons...
Philip Marcou
Lee,
They look as good as if you had done 'em.
Ray
Hey Ray,
By the way, Lonnie said to tell you hi. He also told me if I had the chance to get up your way that I would be a fool to pass on it. He has very nice things to say about you (even though you never hired any of his students ;)
Lee
Lee,
Haven't seen Lonnie for a while. When he was teaching shop in Ohio, he used to pop in once in a while on his way to visit kin somewhere in the south. Then, he used to call from time to time, but not for a great while. I'd begun to think maybe we'd had a falling-out, and I hadn't heard about it :-))
You're welcome to stop by the shop, but you'd probably be underwhelmed. In trying to earn a living, I've spent far more time on what goes out the door than in what is all around it. hah
Ray
Ray,
You won't get much done when I come over. You will be too busy answering all of the hundreds of questions I will likely have ;)
As for Lonnie, I didn't sense any animosity towards you at all. Genuine good compliments about you and your work. And he didn't throw those around about a lot of other woodworkers the two weeks I was there.
Lee
Lee,
Naw, I never sensed any animosity from Lonnie, that was just my way of acknowledging how much busier he is now than he used to be, back when.
Ray
Lee,
what is all this talk of dovetails? You hit the nail on the head in bringing up the problem of test fitting or not. The real answer is to move from dovetails to a more modern approach. There is a guy in Canada who makes a tool called the DowelMax. You should take a look at it. Go to:http://www.dowelmax.com/It looks like a piece of metal that was machined for a spacecraft. It is absolutely gorgeous -- One of the nicest looking tools I have ever seen. I would love to see Derek do a review of it. With the DowelMax, you don't have to worry about tails not fitting. The DowelMax gets the dowels aligned to within a gnat's eyebrow. And it never makes a mistake.I made a tool chest with drawers. Each drawer has twenty dowels in it -- five in each joint. Obviously you couldn't accomplish this with an old Stanley Doweling Jig. I used one of those exclusively for a few decades. My brother taught me how to make panel doors using two dowels at each joint. Never had one fail, since 1968. I sometimes had problems getting the two dowels aligned properly. BUT with the DowelMax, you could easily and quickly put five dowels in each joint, and they just slip together. The DowelMax guy touts these dowels which expand when water based glue is applied. I have tried both and have not noticed a difference.In any case, no one ever talks about dowels anymore. Maloof used to talk about dowels and he used them to nice effect. I guess it is my ornery and contrarian nature which made me get one of those DowelMax thingees a number of years ago. Much more fun than biscuits, and to me,much more satisfying. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy dovetailing too. It does require much more skill, and the results are very good looking. But it is fun to watch the woodworkers start to yammer when you show em a piece that has been joined with massive numbers of dowels. First you notice the "holier than thou" blathering. Second, you hear about how dowel joints are not good because dowels dont have much long grain touching long grain. It shows that these folks can all read. But it is amazing how interested they become when they see how easy it is, and how strong and stiff the joints are. Get a DowelMax! Wow your neighbors!
Have fun.
MelPS at the rate you guys are going, this thread is going to pass the long one over in Hand tools. :-)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Gawd in heaven, Mel, that is bad taste-not even funny, and I only read halfway.(er, small joke-understand?)Philip Marcou
Mook,
I am very slow. You have to explain. You said " Mel, that is bad taste-not even funny, and I only read halfway.(er, small joke-understand?)"What were you talking about? I say so many things that fit your description that I don't know which one you were speaking of. I often advise people to buy your planes. Surely you weren't referring to that. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
(the DowelMax) looks like a piece of metal that was machined for a spacecraft. It is absolutely gorgeous -- One of the nicest looking tools I have ever seen. I would love to see Derek do a review of it.
You know Mel I saw this on Monday night at my monthly woodwork club meeting. The presenter mentioned that he had a friend in Canada who designed and made these, largely for enthusiasts at present (because of the price). Now he was about to have them made in China. It certainly looked well made.
I have nothing against dowels. Indeed, I use a Stanley #59. It is very accurate.
There is more context here. Monday night's presenter was me. There was quite a turnout and I must say that "performing" in front of a large crowd is quite intimidating. The idea was to demonstrate a few handtools that even powertool users would find useful. I concentrated on the router plane, with a few others like a side rabbet plane (for dados) and a grooving plane (for drawers). The venue was in a woodworking school, and I was fascinated to discover that the students had absolutely no idea was a router plane was! Nor most of the other planes I had with me.
I concentrated on demonstrating chopping a mortice in hardwood with a Ray Iles mortice chisel, and cutting a tenon with a handsaw. The tenon was then tuned with a router plane. Damn, it was a good fit!
The main event was to cut and fit a sliding dovetail, which I did with a handsaw, chisel and router plane. Not a bad fit - not perfect, but about 95% tight all the way. I didn't disgrace myself (although I am certain I sounded like a drooling idiot during my discourse).
The doweling jig was presented after this. About 90% of the members are almost exclusively power users, and it is evident that butt joints are their thing. Dowels, biscuits, etc make that possible.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
GREAT POST on doweling! Glad to hear that you know of the DowelMax. YOu mentioned that Jim Lindsey is thinking about having the DowelMax made in China. That indeed is interesting. I chatted with him a few years ago, and he said just the opposite. He told me that he can't find anyone else who can make them to his tight specifications, and that he would not let anyone make them who reduced the quality. I sent him a few messages with ideas on improving the visibility of the DowelMax and on increasing sales. He thanked me for the suggestions but said that he had already thought of all of the ones I had mentioned, and each has problems. Oh well. I tried.You mentioned the DowelMax as being a bit pricey. I don't think so - not for what you get. Given the quality, I am amazed that he can sell it as cheaply as he does. The kit is only about $300, far less than most of the LV or LN planes, for example. I think the Dowelmax is a very useful tool, based on my experience. I am not trying to sell anyone on the idea. I just enjoy using it.I hope you do a writeup on the DowelMax someday. Regards from Burke,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Gaw! Dowels!!?! Wash your mouth out with soap!
Ray, who has repaired more than his share of loose dowel joints.
Ray,
"Ray, who has repaired more than his share of loose dowel joints."You are sounding more and more like Lataxe. You are getting to be too much of a traditionalist. You need to open your mind to newer technology, like today's dowels, and the DowelMax jig. It allows you to EASILY use more than one dowel per lineal inch. You can use "expanding" dowels. You can used "drawbore pinned dowels". Gawd, dowels are the thing that may save woodworking from its slavery to dovetails. Of course, sometimes I pin my dovetails, but only when I have been up very late. All seriousness aside, in my meager experience in refurbishing old furniture, I have run across a lot of failed dowel joints. I have also run across jointed boards whose glue has failed, and dovetails which have come apart. Because these things have happened, I have been able to buy the furniture for a pittance, and then fix up the furniture nicely and easily, and with great enjoyment. Now I have furniture that is worth twice what I paid for it. On some pieces, I believe the increased value to be over $20. (and that is for a single piece of furniture. :-)This brings up a great story. A few years before I took a part time job at the local Woodcraft, I went down with Victorian oak table leg and stretcher that I was having a problem with. They were joined by two large dowels and the holes didnt match any more. In one the grain was lengthwise, and the other was ..... yup, you guessed it, in the other direction. The guy who worked there, and still does, recommended that I forget the dowels and use a Kreg jig and screws. EEEEEEGGGGGGGAAAAAAADDDDDD.Advice must be evaluated. I hope you take my advice and increase your use of dowels. Yuk yuk yuk.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nothing wrong with dowels, in the right places. I don't think they are a good choice for joints that will take a lot of movement and stresses - drawers, chairs, etc. - but they might work fine in more static applications like joining carcase sides and the like (which is the type of thing I've seen Krenov use them for - FWIW).
Also, it depends upon whether you are building for a decade or a century of use.
Sean,
"Also, it depends upon whether you are building for a decade or a century of use. "I plan for 3.1416 or pi centuries of hard use.I have read extensively about dowel, and have corresponded with two people who did university research on dowels (if you can believe such people exist). That gave me a big vocabulary on the subject, but not much help. I started making panel doors in 1968 using dowel joints, and no failures yet. That would be about about four decades. None of them appear loose in any way. I have switched to M&T. For the most part, I use dovetails in drawers, but if you make the drawers with the dowels going parallel to the front of the drawer and into the sides, and you use, say one dowel per inch of drawer depth, you have a pretty solid, stable drawer (for a while anyway). Now, I have also talked with the designer of the DowelMax, and he assures me that he has never had failures. I gotta tell you. I believe this guy. He impressed me as a proud old time engineer. I can make a drawer with 20 dowels in the four joints very quickly with the DowelMax. It takes more time to make the M&T. If I am making a piece "for the ages", I use M&T and dovetails, and I'll draw bore pin the M&T joints, even in the face frame. I am not known for being understated in my furniture. But if everyone is saying, "watch out for them lousy dowels", I just gotta test it out for myself. So far, no failures, but then again, my dowel joints are not ordinary dowel joints. You should try the DowelMax.I made some nice furniture before I found out that many of the things I was doing are not standard practice among the cognoscenti. Heck, I didn't know the cognoscenti existed until I joined Knots. I just bought my tools at Sears, and made furniture. I was very happy. Now that I am learning a lot, I am often conflicted. But all in all, learning is a good thing. Look at the alternative. Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Cognesentee!
I propose we alter the Miller Dowel System to have dowels with a square head. Then whenever a Miller Dowel is used, it will give the appearance of a draw-bored mortise joint. Who will know the difference, unless some cognesentee uses three or four Miller Dowels in a row!
I happen to like my TiteMark gage and I also like my small Preston shoulder plane (which the LN was modeled after) far more than my LV medium shoulder plane.
I happen to agree with Derek that the DowelMax is too pricey. For that kind of money, I want the it to also glue and assemble the piece I'm working on. Given that I'm a hobbyist that builds two to three things per year (not counting the incidental shelves, etc.), I'm more inclined to take my time to study and learn the traditional way of tackling a joint that has no obvious plan to it. In fact, I have been known to sit on my shop stool for hours at a time staring at a half assembled carcass or at a half sketched drawing. Further, about a month ago, I dug out of storage my old pre-amp, amp and turntable and hooked them up to my shop speakers and really zone out. My kids have told me that if they smell incense and see a black light in my shop then they're calling the cops. Back to the DowelMax. What was the discussion about?
T.Z.
Tony,
So you were a hippy?
Hey man. Howzitgoin, dude?
I gotta get an old VW van and paint it psychodelic. I am going to cross the country and pay for the trip by selling bread. I am going to call it "THE FLOUR POWER" tour. Yuk yuk yuk. I really crack myself up. The DowelMax thing - just a fun diversion with Derek, and then Ray joined in and told me that I am the divvil himself for using them nasty things. I just use em once in a while to mix things up, and to try alternatives. We all don't want to be just the same, all the time. It is not easy to come up with entirely new ideas every day. I was thinking of redoing the midsized shoulder plane thing again, but we've done it too often. I once had a good conversation with Philip about hand held motorized planers. He likes em. That surprised me. Philip is quite a guy - very versatile.Well it is time to go listen to The Hippy Dippy Weatherman again.
Have fun.
Mel
PS I lived through the hippy era. BUT I NEVER INHALED.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Tony,"My kids have told me that if they smell incense and see a black light in my shop then they're calling the cops. "about 68. Slick/Airplane 5th row, live Fillmore West. "White Rabbit"
To breathe was to inhale.Remember what the dormouse said;
"FEED YOUR HEAD"Have tried to learn more ever since.
BB
BB,
Yup , and panhandling out in front of the Filmore West to get in was a favorite for the locals . I never was as close as the fifth row but saw many a concerts there back in the late 60s, in the thick smoke filled venue .
You know what they say ?
If you remember the 60s you were not there .
dusty , remembers some of the summer of Love and the communes in SF and Speedway meadows in Golden gate park and free concerts and love inns too and something about the back seat of a police car , it's where I first met Lataxe , he was selling candles and some other accessories from his micro van .
Hi Mel,
I wonder what David Savage thinks of the DowelMax?
:)Seriously, I understand that dowels and bisquits have their place in cheap mass furniture. However, it seems to me that using dowels in fine woodworking is a bit like half-lapping your drawer fronts and then drawing the dovetails on with a crayon.I think Krenov puts it best (and I paraphrase) when he justifies planing the backside of a cabinet. It's not because anyone will ever see it, but because you know it's there and it's been done right. Doweling drawers may be wondrous, but you'll always know that drawer was slammed together with a quick and dirty joint. You'll also know you could have bought that quality of construction at Ikea for less than it cost you to make it. Where's the artistry?I'm sure I haven't earned the right to be this snobby about methods.
Best,
---Pedro
Pedro,
Don't be shy about it. Join the crowd and be a bit snobby. After all, you are a woodworker. How much better can thing?About dowels -- there was a time, the "doctors" used to use leaches. Then there was a time when they didn't. Now leaches have found uses in medicine again. But what am I doing telling you about medicine? If you search around you will find articles on using dowels by some big names. (And you know if one of the big names says it, it must be true. )My guess is that if you ever used a DowelMax and put a drawer together with twenty expanding dowels, and then you tapped it together, and you used it for heavy stuff in your workshop for 50 years, you would stop worrying that it was going to implode. A dowel is nothing more than a round floating tenon.I am thinking of inventing a star shaped tenon. Once it goes in, you wont be able to twist it. I believe Festtools will be interested in doing a automatic star-dowel inserter for about $3000 a pop.Go ahead, come up with any woodworking topic that hasn't been raised 20 times in the past few years on Knots. I tried dowels, and that has worked much better than I thought. Of course, I don't have any more ideas. Possibly we can develop a line of leaches that eat wet glue. That way you never have to wipe glue off, and you get a perfect glue line. Whaddyathink?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You said:"My guess is that if you ever used a DowelMax and put a drawer together with twenty expanding dowels, and then you tapped it together, and you used it for heavy stuff in your workshop for 50 years, you would stop worrying that it was going to implode."Perhaps. But no one has EVER done this. Not once, ever, in the history of mankind. And that, is precisely my point.---Pedro
Pedro,
"Perhaps. But no one has EVER done this. Not once, ever, in the history of mankind."
Almost true. I have, except that the drawers have only been together for a few years, not 50. I really like to get real experience on things that other people poo poo. I posted photos after I made the thing. It is not the type of piece that you use to impress the Knotheads. It is more for people who are into checking out "why" and "why not" based on experience rather than "WEFs" (well established fables).
If you stand up in Knotsville and say, "Everybody should have three sizes of top notch shoulder planes, you will get a lot of cheers." If you stand up and say "Why don't we switch back to dowels now that we have a tool which will let us use a bunch of them quickly and easily", you will hear the cries of "Burn the heretic."
I remember back in 1986, I refinanced my home with a 15 year loan rather than with what all my buddies were doing, a 30 year loan. I heard the cry "Heretic. You should always put off paying off the house, and use the cheaper money of the future to pay for it. Never pay the house off."
Well, I had a choice. I could pay $900 a month for 30 years (on the amount I was refinancing, or I could pay $1000 a month for 15 years. I chose the latter. My house was paid off about the time I turned 60 and my youngest kid finished grad school. My friends are still paying on their houses. I am a happy heretic.
That doesn't mean that the crowd is always wrong. They are usually right, but not always. When I get advice from others, I think of it as something I should test before I decide which way to go. That is the road I took with dowels. I had been using them since 1968 because my brother showed me how to make panel doors with a Stanley dowel jig. Never had a failure. Then on Knots, I hear: Dowels are evil. Wow. That was not my experience. Obviously I had not tested dowels for hundreds of years, and I had come across many Victorian pieces in which the dowels were loose. But they were easy to fix. I have seen many dovetail joints which have come apart. They are a bit harder to fix, but do-able.
So I use dowels sometimes, and tails more often.
Thinking is fun. Trying things for yourself is fun. (not everything, but some things)
I hear music in the background. Son of a gun, its Ol Blue Eyes, and he's singin' "I did it my way."
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I understand the appeal of dowels, bisquits, floating tenons (a la Domino), pocket screws, and so on and so forth: they reduce costs by reducing time to manufacture. But for the hobbyist time is not at a premium.But hey, it's your woodwork (and it looks a heck of a lot better than mine), so of course you should use whatever trips your trigger. I will avoid the dowels, and make gap-toothed dovetails instead. Each project will take me forever, and be third-rate by any reasonable standard of excellence. But it's the journey, not the destination, and I (like you) prefer to do it my way. Even if I bite off more than I can chew, through it all, when there is doubt, I'll eat it up and spit it out.Best,
---Pedro
Pedro,
That dowel conversation was fun. Not long ago, I posted a simple message requesting info on David Savage. You were the 200th post in the thread. Never knew David Savage would be so popular. :-)
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,"Burn the heretic (and in a reet hot fire)"!!Not because you favour the dowel but because you recommend the incorrect apparatus. Here is the correct apparatus:http://www.mafell.de/produktkatalog/index.php?ID_O_PRODUCT=5109&sLanguage=EnglishLataxe, collecting offcuts into a heap.
Lataxe, ol chum,
I didn't know of the existence of that marvelous machine. It is a thing of beauty. I will not buy one until Derek or David reviews it. That dual doweller looks like something a surgeon would use for liposuction. You know, the ultimate dovetail joint is the secret dovetail joint. You can't even tell it is there. Well, my dowel joints are the same way. They are secret dowel joints. You can't tell they are in there. Well, maybe NASA can, but they have really cool sensors. That gives me an idea. What say we get NASA together with Adam and have them do research on ancient Mortise and tenon joints by doing some non-invasive imaging of some very old ones. That would settle once and for all whether the aboriginal Mortise and tenon joints were "piston fit" just like we all make them now. Ray doesn't think you are a traditionalist. I set him straight on that. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I will not buy one until Derek or David reviews it.
It'll be David, then. Those things are waaaaaay expensive. I don't think they will be sending a freebee to Derek for "evaluation"
Lee
You wrote:"That gives me an idea."Be careful with those. Then you wrote:
"What say we get NASA together with Adam and have them do research on ancient Mortise and tenon joints"I'd rather see an article on 18th century space exploration. We could learn about how back then they built space shuttles quick and dirty and covered up the lousy joinery with ceramic molding.
Pedro,
What do you mean "Shameless trolling for posts."?I actually felt great shame. I was just being practical. That happens all the time in Washington, DC. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I yam an anti-Rationalist. This doesn't mean what you think, mind. However, it does mean one finds value in practical traditions - but not them as is ossified and also moldy, not to mention made up by an old wifey. For example, I approve greatly of the traditions of scientific investigation and also those of engineering but eschew the byzantine rigid mind-shackle that is organised religion.Then there is my conservatism. This is the small "c" variety and means "hangs on to proven good stuff and nivver even picks up the bad (such as a Rationalist "solution" to some aspect of living). One detests a Thatcher, who was in fact a revolutionary of the most destructive ilk; and also them neo-cons you have over there, who are in fact robber-men of the most despotic inclination. This is probably why I go dewy-eyed when there is a steam train or an electric trolleybus nearby. And yet a digital camera in conjunction with Photoshop has me slavering too.*****But then there is that general problem I have already mentioned to you, concerning taxonomies. Why stick anything, let alone oneself, into a pidgeon hole with a label on it? I suppose some lads like to be pidgeons (the avian equivalent of a cudlipped sheep). Hands up! Who is a self-imposed baa-beast looking about to see where the other baa-lambs are running; and who is not at all sure what they are let alone where to go? Lataxe, who is convinced the Situationists are right in advocating the destruction of that myth concerning a single, integrated human personality. (But why did they give themselves an "-ist" name, the eejits? Doh!!)PS I hope you make your own dowels, as the bought ones all go oval and are made of paper mache.
Lataxe,
"PS I hope you make your own dowels, as the bought ones all go oval and are made of paper mache."Actually, I do make my own dowels, and I make them oval, so that over time, as you know, they change in shape. Mine are shaped so that in time, they become round. I use a "slow release glue" so that when the dowels do become round, the glue is there for them to bind with round hole. You asked why people put labels on others -- Obviously it is to upset them so that do not speak rationally and thus make an arse out of themselves. Einstein once said: An explanation should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. He was agreeing with your conclusion on the use of one word labels for people. As an explanation, they are far too simple. Colors and lines are the tools of the painter. Words are the tools of an orator. You, obviously, are an orator of the first ilk, an artist in the use of concepts and ideas as described by words. If an orator's words are congruent with reality, we have an intelligent orator who is obviously not running for office. I am always amazed by your use of words -- you have the skill with words that a surgeon has with a scalpel. You also capture context as well as the point -- the ground as well as the figure. I am glad that you are not in government. If you were, you could be one of the most dangerous men in the universe. Luckily you are in retirement, and you use your skills to open the minds and intellects of the denizens of Knotsville to the full spectrum of ideas on the quest for happiness in woodworking.As they used to say in the beverage industry, "Hires to you!"
Mel
PS, Hires was a popular Root Beer at one time. I believe you can still buy bottles of it on EBay.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,You burble: "If an orator's words are congruent with reality...."Ah ha! Who's reality? The best orators construct one first then impress you by saying stuff that exactly matches what's in it. Step forward: the purveyors of religious texts!Sometime during 1968 reality split into a complex manifold which even now is still multi-armed and liable to twist about a bit. I still haven't decided which 5 I like the best so go on trying as many as I can get into. One has to wriggle a bit.Lataxe, a flatworm.
Lataxe,
"Ah ha! Who's reality?"My reality. Are there any others which are also correct?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Around here in this part of PA, it used to be "Nehi" root beer and other assorted flavors. There were almost as many small "pop" bottling companies around here as there were small breweries. Sad to see virtually none of them exist anymore!
T.Z.
Tony,
We are all saddened by the demise of the small breweries and soft drink makers. Even Rolling Rock sold out. Nek
(or if I put my fingers in the right place on the keyboad,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Rolling rock actually sold out (the first time) a number of years ago to Labatts. I don't know if either changed their formulas, but there was a remarkable similarity between RR and Labatts Blue. The sale to Annheiser Busch was a true sell-out!
When I was in college we drank a lot of Schlitz. This past summer, while on vacation, I picked up a six pack of the old brew to see how it tasted after all these years. Well, it tasted like it was on the shelf for 33 years!
These posts belong in the big thread Mel!
T.Z.
Tony,
OK lets move to the big thread.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi ya Mel,
"You are getting to be too much of a traditionalist"
You are mistaken on so many levels. 1st, Lataxe, I'm pretty sure would resist being called a traditionist, or any other kind of ist (although I'm pretty sure he is some kind of ist). 2dly it is not possible to be too much of a traditionist. 3dly, I disagree that I am getting to be any more of one than I ever was. So, there.
"drawbore pinned dowels".
Is that where you drive a nail thru both the wood and the dowel inside it, because it's loosened up? I've seen that done, but never been tempted myself, having been in the position of trying to withdraw the dam things without destroying the wood they are driven thru. (hehe)
"by two large dowels and the holes didnt match any more."
In those instances, I find that substituting two lengths of rubber hose of the correct diameter will make up for the discrepancies, and is about as strong as a couple dowels anyway ;-))
Kreg jig and screws. Never heard of either of 'em. New fangled, I reckon.
Ray, the dowel hating traditionalist
Ray,
Yup, you got it. Draw bore pinnned dowels are best done with nails, just like you said. You know a lot about woodworking.Now about the Kreg jig. It is used for lots of things but mostly, I believe, it is used by cabinet makers in making faceframes for kitchen cabinets. You position the two pieces of wood and use the jig to drive two screws into the wood. You don't need glue. They never loosen up. They are very very strong, and very fast to make. EVEN FASTER than a DowelMax. (if you can believe that).You might enjoy looking up the Kreg for a few minutes. You can find it at:http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=10You don't think Lataxe is a traditionalist???? He makes eating stuff out of green wood with ancient tools using the ancient ways, and he knows the chant that goes with each piece. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey Mel,
I feel a little guilty for visiting this thread when we could be extending the # of posts towards 5000 in the hand tool category. However.
Where to begin, you are goading me into a reply with your provocative posts, you naughty boy.
Our mutual friend Lataxe, a traditionalist? While he does pass the hours betimes, in hewing, riving and such, he also will rave about his woodrat in the next breath. After that, the misguided fellow is showing pics of another arts and crafts style boxy creation. Next he's bragging about his latest acquisition of a thoroughly modern Marcou, whilst plodding through the heather on the moors, or riding a 24-geared velocipede along the byways of Galgate. It is all too much, and a flagrant attempt to prevent our trying to categorize the bloke in any way. But, I've got his number. It is 23 skidoo.
If I am not mistaken, I've worked on dowelled chairs that were "repaired" with the use of your Kreg apparatus, or by someone who'd seen the video, at least.
You compared leeches for doctors and dowels for woodworkers in another post. I believe you are onto something there. The analogy is apt. Why? Because they both SUCK!!
HAHAHAHA
Ray
Ray,
So let us agree, Lataxe is not a traditional traditionalist. He is a post-modern quasi traditionalist, with a flair. Hows that for mincing words. I have been in DC too long.
As you know, I am always in search of a way to make money in woodworking. So I will steal your idea, and print up Tee shirts that say "Dowels suck". I believe I coule sell a lot of them around here.
Glad you got a kick out of my posts in this thread. I also feel guilty about not tending the other thread, but threads have their own life. You can't will them to live, and you can't kill them when you want. I have learned how to be humble and accept my shortcomings, which my wife tells me are "legion".
Watch out for them Kreg jigs! Do you have a Fein Multi-Master?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Too late, Mel; the Dowelmax is toast. It'll be showing up on E-bay as an interesting antique. Freud is bringing out for a mere $300 or so a shiny corded dowel joiner that makes noise, spews dust and saves you the trouble of measuring -- much. It has the added advantage of using up the stockpile of buiscuit-joiner bodies that nobody wants anymore. Now that the dowel is mechanized, no-one on Knots will admit to using it.
Jim
Mel,
" Do you have a Fein Multi-Master?"
Mel, you crack me up.
I'm heading off to the Valley tool collectors' get together in Broadway this Sat, maybe there'll be one there for sale, sitting on a tailgate. If so, I promise I'll take a look at it, like Barack will take a look at offshore drilling.
Ray
Ray,
You outta get a Fein MultiMaster. I believe you could use it to clean out mortises, trim up tenons, and do some carving on cabriole legs. Maybe if you promise to give it a good review, the company will send you one to review. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Pedro,
Amazing. I've been cutting those dam' things for 35 years, and never thought of using the same tool to cut them out, AND drive 'em together.
Ray
Ha ha. Thanks.Very serious question: Rob Cosman advises against test-fitting this joint, but I'm putting together a fairly large 3x2x1 ft carcasse for a cabinet with drawers windows and so on. The prospect of not test fitting makes me nervous for that final assembly with glue. What say you? When do you skip the test fit, and when do you play it safe?
Test..onceBB
Hi Pedro
I always test out the fit ... well part way. I chamfer the inside of the pins and push the pins and tails tigether half way. If I feel it will go together easily, then I back off and leave alone, glue up and drive it home.
I am not sure who advised - just came across this tip - push them toget half way (as I describe), then add glue without undoing the pieces, and drive it home.
Of course, none of this saves the joinery from my cockups. Sometimes I have spatial difficulties, such as here ..
This is a cabinet I banged together as a saw till about a weekend ago.
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Those DTs look OK (they are, in fact, quite tight) ... however ...
.... I put them on the wrong side!
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It's just a piece for the workshop so I don't mind.
Here is another cabinet for good measure (the dts on that one were correct :)).
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Mr Savage has nothing to fear from me!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hey Derek,
Nice woodwork. Nice dovetails.Good to see you here in the David Savage thread. I suggest you sign up for his newsletter. They come frequently. They are very folksy, and there are misspellings (just like in my messages), and his grammar is not always up to that of the Bard. But his writing seems to lay bare his soul. This is not a man who savors each word and rethinks each sentence four times before uttering it. So far, the newsletters I have received have been about how he trains his students, and how some of them are doing. Never having gone through an apprenticeship program, I am getting a bit of an insight in to the process (at least as David does it). Tools don't seem to come up much. When they do, they are in the context of the woodworking process. For instance, he got into the sharpening thing, and he strongly (what else?) stated that honing shouldn't take more than a half minute to get a great edge. Someone had asked him about Charlesworth's approach. I don't know how long this news letter will keep my attention, but it only takes a few minutes a week, but I am impressed with the creativity of his student's designs. As Lataxe has pointed out, some of David's work is "pointy". In teaching these students how to do woodwork, David seems to take an active role in showing them how to get their designs and work out there for all to see, so that they can attract customers. In other words, he ain't teaching these kids how to make joints, but how to become a successful maker of fine furniture. In my limited experience in reading about him, I get the feeling that his greatest achievement is certainly not tool reviews, nor is it his own woodwork, which I believe is excellent -- it is the fact that he has successfully turned out a long string of successful fine woodworkers. I did notice something else about his writing which is different than others. He often gives pointers to the woodworking shops of others who he considers good. Woodworking is a Rorschach test. We all see things differently. Ain't that grand. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel
I have been kibbitzing this thread for a while. I have also been receiving David's newletters for some time. I am quite familiar with him.
I don't tend to notice such things as spelling, so I have no idea what he is like in this regard. I read his commentary and take from this what is helpful and tune out what I recognise as self-promotion.
Self-promotion is expected. His newsletter is a showcase for his business. We all do it more or less. For different reasons. So be it. It is how one does it that matters to me. He comes across to me as someone who puts others (the competition, manufacturers, etc) down quite a lot. I can see David appealing to those who are rebellious souls or anti-authority.
"Stay away from the Titemark variants, very costly, over complicated and not easy to adjust. " he proclaims in his latest newsletter. Personally I think that this advice is simply incorrect. I have a few different types of gauges and in a position to compare them, and the wheel variety are, if anything, the easiest of all to adjust one-handed.
It is not helpful to make statements like "I do need a small shoulder plane and Al brought over the small Veritas Shoulder plane that looks wayyyy better than the Lei Neilsen equivalent", and then not back this up with reasons.
David is entertaining and, if one is careful, you will discover nuggets of gold. But so much is buried under layers of dung that you really don't want to go there for too long. Reminds me of another contributer (he of many identities).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I am very impressed that you read Savage's stuff. Most folks seem only to read, watch and listen to folks who have similar views. I like to do the opposite. I learn more that way. I agree, David's comment on the Tite Mark did not agree with my experience. However it caused me to wonder what I am missing. I didn't understand how he adjusts his cutting gauge with a "tap tap tap". As a result of his comment, I will look into it. But I doubt it will end up with my throwing my Tite Mark into the garbage. :-)I found your statement interesting that "I can see David appealing to those who are rebellious souls or anti-authority. " I would guess just the opposite. He sounds to me like a person who sees himself as THE authority. I would guess that he would attract people who are looking for a savior to follow. Personally, I don't find him appealing. I do find his writing about woodwork to be an interesting read. I don't read in order to find things to "believe", but rather to find ideas to test.Another interesting statement: "It is not helpful to make statements like "I do need a small shoulder plane and Al brought over the small Veritas Shoulder plane that looks wayyyy better than the Lei Neilsen equivalent", and then not back this up with reasons." I disagree. I find the statement very useful to me in helping me make a filter with which to glean the real nuggets from David in the future. The statement is not useful for making a decision between tools.You said: "David is entertaining and, if one is careful, you will discover nuggets of gold. " I fully agree with this, and that is the spirit in which I read his stuff. But then you compared him to the man of many names. I see no similarity between the two. IMHO, Charles and David are a study in contrasts. Charles attacks people. David attacks things (ideas, tools, processes). David doesn't seem to give a damn as to how others see him. Charles makes attacks to bolster his own low self esteem. I see David as focused on woodworking, and Charles as focused on Charles. I see David as having extremely high self esteem, and Charles as having very low self esteem. I see David as a "genuine curmudgeon", and Charles as a "curmudgeon wannabee". Given the world knows David's work and his successes, and that Charles has kept the world from knowing his work, David has nothing to prove, whereas Charles has only proved that he knows woodworking words and has set of sour personalities. My guess is that David is so self confident, that he doesn't feel the need to play games. Charles seems to live for the purpose of playing games. The only reason he generates all the new names is so that he can deal with others without them knowing who they are dealing with (ie for game playing). I would guess that David really likes himself, whereas Charles feels like he has a lot to prove. A final thought on David and Charles. I think David sees the world as full of opportunity, and he embraces the world and makes and sells furniture to the world, and he creates more woodworkers to do the same. Charles sees the world as out to get him, as wanting to steal his ideas, and as a place full of foolish woodworkers who need to be insulted. He is afraid to put up a website of his furniture for fear that others will steal his ideas. David embraces the web and teaches his students to do the same. You can tell that you hit a hot button. If I ever see someone compare you to Charles, I will come to your defense very strongly. :-) As always, don't take me too seriously. I don't.
Have fun.
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Derek,
"Those DTs look OK (they are, in fact, quite tight) ... however ....... I put them on the wrong side!" Ha ha.
Obviously that happens to the select few . Exactly what I did on the very first military chest I made-see the back joints on the drawers.
If it were critical, and you didn't want to re-do them, you could "nail" each tail with a 4 or 5 mm diamter hardwood dowel drilled off vertical alternating each way....Philip Marcou.
P.S.: I don't think much of that "tip" about driving them half way then futszing about with glue....
Edited 11/12/2008 3:50 am by philip
Hi Philip
That tip on adding glue to half-assembled dovetails - I do not recall from where - was in the context of assembling large casework, where it is difficult to assemble and glue is going off. It seemed reasonable in this light, but I have not tried it out.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Pedro,
The confidence to pound dovetails without trying them first comes with experience- experience, that is, in repairing splits beside the tails, when the pins are too snug-haha.
For big cases, in unforgiving wood, I usually give 'em a trial start, slip em together for an eighth inch or so. If all looks good, I count on the lubricity of the glue to ease things together.
Ray
Dom, old son, allow me to chime in please, as what you ask is a good question .
Pop over to New Zee whilst your dollar is relatively strong and I can demonstrate a method which is good for the nerves.
Failing that, I advise that you should always test fit, especially if you use harder woods, and drive them home, even clamp them , all the way: nothing worse than applying glue to 32 doves and sockets and finding that for some reason one side is proud by an 1/8th ....trust me , if you consider that I have made at least 50 military chests,each of which has 64 doves in the carcase alone , not to mention the drawers and the rest.
I suspect that Cosman is anti test fitting because of fear of break out when separating them- and there are two reasons for that:- 1)too tight or localised tightness, therefore should not have driven them all the way home/attempted to test fit and 2) failure to use a chisel to relieve/bevel/chmafer the inner sides of each tail- that is a very quick and easy precaution to take which does not weaken the joint in any way and saves much angst. In fact, it wipes the glue and gives excess somewhere to go when you clamp.
Philip Marcou
Edited 11/12/2008 4:29 am by philip
Having gotten a number of "take 'em half way" comments and now a "do a full test fit", but no one saying "grow a pair and skip the test", I will test fit with a clean conscience.Thank you.As for why Cosman recommends not test-fitting, I'm sure it's not because he fails to bevel his tails with a chisel. I learned this technique from his video. It may be because he works on smaller pieces (drawers, boxes, etc...). Or maybe he's just better at the joint than the rest of us (certainly me).I must object to this teasing caginess with regards to your newest labor of love. I have a job and a family, and I can't be spending my days wondering what you've cooked up now. I'm also green with envy at Lataxe being in the know and taunting me with this at every chance.Incidentally, I just finished four squaring two 1x3 foot red oak boards using your plane. Works wonderfully as a substitute Jack. Here's a picture of the finished result.
---Pedro
Pedro, a few more planks and you will be too bound up to pick up the Marcou! Let the plane do the work!
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Pedro,
"Incidentally, I just finished four squaring two 1x3 foot red oak boards using your plane. Works wonderfully as a substitute Jack. Here's a picture of the finished result."
Seriously now, what angle have you got on the blade and are you waxing the sole?Philip Marcou
PHilip,
"Seriously now, what angle have you got on the blade and are you waxing the sole?"How much wax should you put on the sole of the plane? IF you put too much on, will that affect the finish?Aw, I forgot, someone did that thread a few weeks ago.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Just checked, turns out the sharp bit was pointing towards the tote, and the back of the blade was scraping the wood! I've turned it around and things are much better now.If you or Lataxe don't tell me what's cooking in Hobbiton I'll trade in my Marcou for a DowelMax and a matching pair of Festool Dominos.
---Pedro
Pedro,They do Domino matching pairs!? I thought it was just going to cost 500 squids but now it'll be double!! Well, that's another year I'll have to wait afore gettin' a-one. (I mean two). Still, my chairs will be made in a symmetrical fashion now, unlike them from Mr Savage, who enjoys asymmetry to an unhealthy degree. (I blame the turpentine).There are so many things on my pocket money list. (Well, no point saving now as some capitalist money-fetishist just eats it). There is, for example, rumours from NZ of a 14 inch jack plane....... I am hoping, personally, for a discount after all this advertising, shilling, buz-marketing and so forth. ****You have obviously not been to Angleland, where fairies are as real as the wart on your nose (or elsewhere). In our garden there are several varieties, although they bear a remarkable resemblance to the neighbours or their cats. In any case, one does not rile them, ask for favours or watch them at their dances or other "sports", for they will take umbrage and give one an unfortunate blemish and perhaps an itch. For example, one has given me an itch to buy Marcou planes in all their varieties....****Where is the photo of your latest piece? I feel an urge to look closely at the surface for signs of a less than 1.5 micron plane blade edge at work; or even a misplaced dovetail. I have loaded Charley's posts into a syntax-churning algorithm which spits out various critical sneers concerning such things, as I feel the need to explore a very different personality.Lataxe, a goblin's child.
My latest piece is but a pencil sketch and a quantity of carefully dimensioned boards. I've cut tails, but not pins. Each day I make the design more complicated on paper, so that it's already well above my skill level. It'll probably be no more than a pile of firewood when it's done, but we'll see. I'm a little concerned that it shows Krenov's influence too blatantly (box on thin legs). Some crazy russian (not Krenov) once said that it is better to go wrong in ones own way than to go right in someone elses. But then he killed an old woman to prove his originality, and we all know how that worked out. Still, I would like to be original in my woodworking, and my piece will at worst constitute murder of only a nutritive soul, leaving the other two sorts intact.
Wish me luck.
---Pedro
p.s. I need a Jack...
Pedro,How does one get the babies into the arms and do they suffer at all? There are some very weird hobbies in the US of A! Such a bloke would be illegal here and we'd call a vet along with a rozzer, to drag him before the beak.I suppose he may be a changling who is about to give burf to twins.However, this to the side. Did I tell you there are SIX (yes 6)of those Madcoos about to escape their stall? They're all mine. Did I mention that?Of course, I really am going to have to make something good now. Oh Lawd, yes!!Lataxe, plane greedy.PS They are all very speshul indeed, with fancy bits and pieces. Did I mention that? Or the exotic woods involved?
You are a cruel man.
You and Philip have been poking at me all day with this business of new tools. I don't believe any such tool exists. In reality I suspect you and Philip have designed and built a new doweling jig for Mel. One with a sharpened edge, that can be tied to the end of a stick (or stout dowel), and swung betwixt the legs to hew bowls.
---Pedro, who'll not be believing in any fairy tails from Galgate way.
Pedro,I like your over the top technique. Front and back without removing from the vise. Cool.BB
Mel,My theory is that David Savage is in fact an unholy mixture of Richard Jones and David Charlesworth, made from some of their respective essential essences, collected by Chattox, a witch of Pendle Hill who escaped the C17th Lancaster gallows in fact and now lives secretly here in Gallows Gate (the original name for Galgate) where she does mischief.Thus we have an outspoken yet talented woodworker (Mr Savage) who issues various uncomfortable truths about both tools and furniture with gusto and glee, in between making divvil-chairs to an unnaturally high standard. Incidentally, one does not so much sit in one o' them chairs as get impaled by it.Nevertheless, I enjoyed his rant concerning the exhibition at Cheltenham of sculpti-furniture from various contemporary makers, amongst many other rants and raves.****In all events, he has cast a spell on you so you have lost your normally sensible albeit voluble memeplex which has been supplanted by "uncritical and gooey-eyed acolyte, possibly seeking the role of Familiar". I am working on a spell for you to say three times as you click your heels, so you can cast out this jabbering-fan memeplex and resume the proper Mel one.As to Charles and his many guises: we must all recall that fillum with Sally Field and Joanne Thingybob (wife of Paul Newman) in it. Best not to rile the more extreme personalities too much as they may become baleful. Of course, it is a moot point as to whether there IS actually more than one personality; sticking various multi-coloured labels on the same box doesn't change it's contents (which is mostly straw packing with a ball and claw in it somewhere).Lataxe, looking for some more icons to clast.
It's amusing to read a screed about web anonymity from a guy who posts under the moniker "9619."
Edited 11/8/2008 7:23 pm ET by UrbaneLegend
That's Mel's zip code. He's so old his zip code only has 4 digits ;-)
Lee
Lee,
Dang! Mine only has 5. I must be catching up to Mel.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Lee,
"That's Mel's zip code. "That's close. 9619 is my street number. When I joined Knots, I had no idea how it worked or what people used as Psydonyms. So I just put in my street number, and figured that I'd change it later. But I never did. Maple is my favorite wood, but "mapleman" is already taken. :-)Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Charles: Pez?Philip Marcou
Philip,
If you don't have a Pez dispenser, why you're just letting the best in life pass you bye.
---Pedro
Charles, old Scone, you really are burbling on now:
"The toes Savage steps on aren't worth worrying about."----On the contrary, at 17000 Pounds a pop I would say he should mind his p's and q's at all times since he has no idea who may be reading what he says- or do you think that "students" are queuing up in droves?
"Given his accomplishments, he can be as haughty and pompous as he wants"---- Now why on earth should anyone adopt such a counter-productive attitude? Is he a little man or what? Jeesh, really....
And the rank amateurs and relatively unskilled are the very ones to whom he owes what is probably the major part of his income since they come this way as students before they can acquire knowledge and experience.Philip Marcou
Savage, by all appearances, seems to be doing fine.
I'm sure that he's quite grateful for the beginners that come his way for instruction, but not so much for the ones who hold themselves out as experts, about anything really, having to do with woodworking.
The notion, for instance, of an individual publicly reviewing tools without much evidence of ever having used them to any great effect would irritate him I imagine. But you can read for yourself. Draw your own conclusions. On the other hand he may not be irritated so much by the wishful-thinkers offering the reviews as by those stupid enough to pay attention to them. Or possibly he just gets a big hearty laugh at the whole thing while putting the finishing touches on the umpteenth high-degree-of-difficulty masterpiece of his career while so-called experts wallow in the difficulty and challenge of building a saw till or an Arts and Crafts stool, for example.
His article about tools is called "Independent, Free, Expert, Advice on Woodworking Tools."
Expert, for sure. And independent too. Refreshing.
It seems to me that he's formed an opinion about tools through using them at a very high level of competence, not like some who do so by internalizing and regurgitating the marketing blurb already available from the manufacturers, by bouncing ideas off a mutual admiration society composed mostly of equally inept internet brethren, or by making careers out of piles of test boards, making glorified firewood, beginner's shop projects, and detailed forum posts.
Edited 11/9/2008 11:16 am ET by UrbaneLegend
Cannot believe I have just read most of this thread...
I've been aware of David Savage from some British WW mags for some time. A couple few years ago I had opportunity to email back and forth with him. Quite a nice--and passionate person.
There is a WW'ing forum based in the UK where a series of threads began on design. A particular person would post an image or two from a maker's web site and the designs were to be discussed. Unfortunately, often the makers were trashed in the process. One of those threads had to do with a design or two of Mr. Savage's.
While I had seen several pieces via the WW'ing rags, it was then I perused his web site. I came to the conclusion that he and his workers execute their work with great skill. It doesn't matter to me whether some of it would be welcome in my own house. I looked at them from the skill aspect.
It is one thing to make rectilinear furniture with skill, quite another to skillfully shape and join such pieces as make up much of Savage's portfolio.
As to the point of this thread? We all got opinions about tools. He's got his. I don't think a beginner could go very wrong at all from following much of his advice. And the grammar/spelling issues raised? Like his furniture, it is the content of a web site I really care about. So it didn't bother me at all.
Take care, Mike
Mike , Well said .
dusty
Charles,You musta had an extra pint of vitriol this morning; you are even more bitter and twisted than usual! Still, it's always entertaining to see you spit and fume. How you swing (and wildly) between sycophantic praise for your current hero and utter condemnation of those you have put into the second-rater classification (99.99999% of the population I should think).Let us hope you nivver become a politician as we will all be shot at dawn, or even in the middle of the night, for sins against Charleyism that we are not even aware we have committed. Oh, it would be a harsh regime. Still, what a pure (if underpopulated) place it would be. Calvin, eat yer heart out.Meanwhile I am reading Mr Savage's many blog musings of past times. Have to say, though: there's little to help one choose tools other than "buy this 'cause I like it". I find it so much more informative to read a proper analytical examination of a tool, than the off-hand remark of some high-handed partisan (unless one is a fan of high-handed partisan mode of course). It's not that hard to discover that LN and Blue Spruce work well, now is it?However, Mr Savage's musings on design and other metaphysical aspects of WW are most enlightening. Perhaps if you admire his mode of discourse, you might try to emulate it? This would require that, along with the poisonous remarks, you actually impart some useful wisdom (other than your constant and now tedious "just do it" remark, which has been copyrighted by Mr Nike anyway).Somehow I think you will just continue to spit out that vitriol, poor thing.Lataxe, watching Charley ride on a hero's coat tail whilst spitting on the passers by, as usual.
When you get a bit weary of all the usual suspects refresh yourself with these links:
http://www.davidlambfurniture.com/ (under construction but pics are there; images may open in a separate tab depending on your browser; click on the 'recent work' tab)
http://www.williamthomas-furniture.com/index.html
http://www.rtam.com/marcoux.html
http://www.pollaro.com/welcome.php
http://www.furnituremasters.org/
http://www.robertwhitley.com/index.htm
http://www.curtisbuchananchairmaker.com/homepage.html
http://www.vermontfurnituremakers.com/
http://njcc.com/~jhein/
http://www.jscottallen.com/
http://www.custommade.com/gallery/NC/maple-coffee-table.html
http://www.furnituremaker.ca/gallery.html
http://www.johnshawfurnituremaker.co.nz/main.htm
http://www.lackley.com/index.html
http://www.gelinascarr.com/index.htm
http://www.brucehamilton.co.uk/
http://www.stevenkennard.com/index.html
Edited 11/10/2008 1:10 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Information on David Savage
.... I know David Savage personally as I have attended the 12 month course at his Atelier. I discovered quite quickly that this man is not a woodworker - he is passionate about self promotion. I've also learnt that he has a very poor reputation within the furniture community. He's always falling out or having arguments with people.
Whilst I was at the Atelier for 12 months I never saw him pick up a tool. He has a craftsman that makes his work for him. In terms of tool reviews he just gets the students to try it out and then asks their opinion. I should also say within that period he had no commissions althought he told prospective students (that pay £18000) for a years course - that it was a busy workshop churning out real work.
Many of the students leave the course early as it is so bad. The course is very understaffed and taught by 1 former student, plus one craftsman. Have a look at this site I found: http://finefurnituremakers.wordpress.com.
I know that he spends most of his time on web marketing and reputation managment - you'll never see a bad word about him on the web.
There are many unhappy ex students out there ... and I know that several have persued legal action against him
It's a shame this is allowed to happen in the woodworking community.
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