I am new to woodworking and really need a workbench. I really like the look and usefullness of the new fangled workbench but I cannot find any kiln dried douglas fir. Every place I have found it, it is called green. The local lumber yard does have 2×12 of ponderosa pine. Will this wood work? I need to make the workbench within the next couple weeks so I don’t think I have time to let green wood dry in my garage. Thanks for all your help!
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Replies
I assume that you are looking for a material for the workbench TOP. Ponderosa pine is kind of soft and I wouldn't use it unless you don't mind it getting dinged a whole lot. If you find Douglas fir which is stored inside, it is likely not Green green, if that makes sense. If you can, get a hold of Chris Schwartz's book on designing workbenches Workbenches: From Design And Theory To Construction. He uses construction grade lumber (not entirely dry) for many of his benches.
Another option is to use plywood - possibly a double thickness of 3/4" ply. If you want a solid wood top, drop some tongue-and-grooved solid wood on top. Add a skirt around the edges and you've got yourself a stiff, sturdy workbench top.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thank you all for your advise. I think I will take another look at the green douglas fir at Home Depot and Lowes and then go from there. I was also thinking I may use the Ponderosa Pine and top it off with plywood. I am trying to keep the costs as low as possible for now.
I made a new top for my work-bench 3 week-ends ago. The Doug fir base will last forever, but I replace the top every 5-6 years not because it needs to be replaced.. but because my lovely wife and friends complains of how ratty it gets. I won't hesitate to nail a batten on top for a hand-planing stop or no backer when I chop DT waste. I find wood filler or bondo fills the holes but... you don't argue with the Chief.
This one was made from Southern Yellow Pine. I purchased it on a Friday morning and transferred the vises the following Monday. You can use SYP for the base also as I do on assembly tables.. tool bases.. etc. Cheap and not nearly as soft as most taut. It's also heavy and once dry as in many old southern homes... very, very hard once it case hardens.
Sarge..
Thanks for this advice. I never really thought much about being able to change the top. I think I may try the ponderosa pine for now and replace it later. This is my first workbench and if I am going to make mistakes I would like to make them with cheap material! I just need to design it with a relatively easy top to remove.
iamip,It's always enjoyable to read posts about workbench design and materials, etc...the passion runs deep. And it should, we are all grateful to the utility, versatility and functionality that it adds to our endeavors. The best piece of information I ever got on workbench design was " you'll probably build five over your life time"..so don't worry. It is pretty hard to build a quality workbench without a workbench. A solid base is essential and manageable without a workbench, I used maple donnage on one and green doug Fir on the other, no problems. You'll know when its time to change tops to solid wood...and then recycle the old ply..
Look for structural grade and not stud grade. It has less knots and is more likely to be kiln dried.
Kiln dried structural grade will cost more, but is worth the extra money.
Rip,
The beauty of your first bench is that you will learn a lot building it, gain a useful structure on which to practice your WW art, and by the time it is completed you will have a list of ideas for the next bench. Ponderosa pine should be fine for the structure. I believe John W. used MDF for his top, but you can check. As Chris said, plywood works fine for the top, also.
Enjoy building your bench and post a picture when you are done!
Best!
-nazard
Where are you located? If you can get southern yellow pine (SYP), it will be better than ponderosa pine. Whatever you do, don't be impatient with the wood--cut it roughly to size, then let it sit with plenty of air circulation for a week (or more, if you can stand it).
-Steve
I made my first workbench from the design in an old book by Stanley Toolworks: "How To Work With Tools And Wood", found it in a used bookstore for a quarter. The top was 2 pieces of 2X6 and 2 pieces of 2X8 edge-glued together. That's a relatively inexpensive benchtop and very easily replaced if you beat it up too much. I'd recommend you use whatever wood's available and you can afford. If you can, sort through the lumber available and try to get quartersawn boards for the benchtop.
Edited 5/18/2008 11:06 pm ET by Ray
iamrip,
Concur, your first bench will be one to grow on, depends on what you do and how you use it. I have a bench with two layers of MDF for the top, srewed layer one to the base and then spray glued the top layer over it. Then router the edges. Nice work surface that I use for organization, tools drawers and some assembly etc.
Next bench will be a 3/4 HD ply top on a torsion box grid with a 1/2 ply for the bottom. It will have folding legs and drop down from the ceiling by pulleys. This is an assembly bench but also used to finish materials, some cutting and dovetail work. It fits above my garage door since my spouse needs to park in my shop... or I need to do woodworking in her garage. Probably an intermediate solution also.
Woodworkers Journal has a Workshops project book, with a simple plan for a bench from one 4 by 8 ply sheet. Just a solid platform to work on, but no capacity for vises and such. Cheap and quick so you can start work! Great book for shop cabinets and such even if it is not a Tauton publication!
AZMO
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Has anyone built a bench using a solid-core door as a top? I'm thinking of doing just that, then covering the top w/ T&G as suggested. Any thoughts?
Jason
Jason,
I am useing a solid core door with mdf skins as a drafting table in my office. I have a production cabinetmaker friend who uses that for his shop, space is tight so they flop onto sawhorses for assembly work. I can't see any reason why you couldn't use them as is and add a skirt for vises. If you raised the skirt 1/4" you could have a replaceable MDF sheet there. Doors come in sizes from 28" to 36" and start out square.
So many good articles on benches out there, always makes a good read to see how to improve on an idea. I really like the Veritas twin screw vise and a quick release vise on the side are important tool. Chris did a thread on the right height for a bench, I like mine on the taller side as I am 6' 2". The range was 34" to 40"
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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Jason,
They work great!
I have several of them one of which is my main workbench for handtool work. Added a Veritas Twin Screw vise on the end and a traditional 9" vise on the front after adding a 8/4 skirt.
They come in various sizes and some have the hole in them for the door latch/knob. Makes a handy place for cords for power tools and they are dead flat. Can be picked up cheap from salvage yards and all ya need is a solid base to pu it on.
I highly recommend them, especially for a first bench.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I built a secondary top for an assembly table one morning about a week ago from a hollow core door for $21. My assembly table permanent top is only 30" x 48" to allow a traffic pattern around the adjacent work-bench.. etc. But.. there are too many times I need it larger as I work a lot of large carcasses.
I bought a 36" x 82" (I think it was 82") and cut both ends off to get a total of 72"... then I ripped scrap oak strips to use as inner re-enforcement every 4" on the inner section. Capped the ends with oak strips to close it.
Not solid enough for a true work-bench.. but stood on a wall it takes no space and one person can easily put it over the existing assembly table or work-bench to use as an assembly table for that larger glue-up.. finish.. etc. The re-reenforcements give it enough strength to hold long clamps level as used on work-bench tops.. etc. with a very low cost to produce.
Not related to your needs at the moment.. just fuel for thought for those that might be in need of an occasionally larger assembly table while on the subject of using doors.
Sarge..
Sarge, if you have a 2 1/2 " thick maple lam top with 1 1/2 "wide sticks do ya really need a deeper or any skirt at all? I will let the rear face of a record #53 clone into the face -flush with the side face 3/8" or so down from the top. Paddy
Sarge, if you have a 2 1/2 " thick maple lam top with 1 1/2 "wide sticks do ya really need a deeper or any skirt at all? I will let the rear face of a record #53 clone into the face -flush with the side face 3/8" or so down from the top..... Paddy
*****
Negative Paddy, as you are fine as you now plan. I have two front vises on one side to clamp long stock for hand plane edging when called for and other large panels my twin won't take between the screws which isn't much. Both those vices use the outer piece of laminated stock that is part of the table as the the rear face for the vises which are German hardware.
I believe the Record has a metal rear face on-board. I would bolt it up and possibly add a wooden face to the rear existing face to allow a little give... but you are fine as you are. I see no reason to put a skirt on any solid top 2 1/2" and over. I use a standard 3" thick as has been my habit and only see a skirt when you use laminated ply.. MDF or whatever in that category to boost strength and dress up the edges with something that can be drilled and used as anchor.
As you Navy types would say... full steam ahead in the direction you are headed, sir.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge thanks, I think you answered a design question for the op and others-et moi aussi!
BTW you old ground pounder YOU(can they put me in detention for that slight? Promise you will not whine to the overlords.) It would be more accurate to hear " ALL AHEAD FLANK, STEADY AS SHE GOES!" Heard that a few times as battle planesman . The young kids drive "in transit" the big kids drive when doin business. Paddy
You're quite welcome, sir. Hmmm... "All Ahead Flank.. Steady As She Goes"..
Yep.. that would confuse an infantry-man as it would most likely put the left-right "flanker" gaurds in a column out in front of the "point man" much to his delight. ha.. ha...
Good luck with the bench, Paddy...
Sarge..
A thought came to me while in the shop last night, Paddy. I have always used front vises from German hardware (and getting hard to find as the hardware is coming from China and India mostly now) which dictates making a front jaw. But allows the outside face of the bench to serve as the rear jaw. Make the front jaw.. attach the vise and your done.
I mentioned covering the rear jaw of your Record as it is metal. But.. I didn't mention I would most likely rebate an area on the outer face of the bench the width of that rear jaw to sink it into the outer piece. I would cut the rebate the depth of the rear jaw and then another 1/4"- 3/8" inch deep to cover the rear metal with a piece of that thickness wood. Then you would end up with one continuous.. flush piece of wood the length of the bench.
I suppose you could let the rear metal protrude forward.. but I prefer to have the stock being clamped against the outer piece of the bench. I mount another front vise to the other end of the table adjacent the twin screw on the end but on the side as the rear front vise. When I clamp a long piece between those two front vises it is forced against the outer top piece for the entire length.
I cannot say it would be scientifically sturdier to do so... just another one of Ray Pine's...." I've just always done it that way" deals. Kind of like in NASCAR when you get "just one of them racin' deals". ha... ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Thanks everyone for the input. After pricing out the ponderosa pine, I think I will start with that. I can make the bench for dirt cheap so if it does not work as I would like it to, I haven't really wasted any money. Plus, since I am going to try to build the new fangled workbench, I will also have four new pipe clamps if it doesn't work out! Thanks so much. I have learned a lot and am ready to start designing my second bench before I have even started the first!
Use good joints with confidence and it will work fine...
Good luck and good results.. both are essential but one is by way of mere chance and the other is by way of sound procedure which starts at ground level with a solid foundation.
Regards...
Sarge..
check out "Rock-Solid Plywood Bench" in FWW 181...
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ProjectsAndDesign/ProjectsAndDesignArticle.aspx?id=29507
I like the built-up base.
I am thinking about a few modifications to the top...
1. make the top out of 2 thicknesses of 3/4 ply, this will give it plenty of strength and will provide enough support for a vise.
2. use 1/4 thick tempered masonite for the top surface, it is more durable than the MDF called out. Also dont bond the masonite to the top.. then you can replace it after it gets bugger'd up...
3. Use 3/4" maple or oak for the banding.
That is a great bench also, do check out that article!!!
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I guess it depends on what you want o do with your bench. If you want to work with hand tools especially, I recommend a simple Nicholson bench. I built mine to take to shows and do demos. I wanted something light and cheap, but it needed to function flawlessly. In both situations, I can't start blaming the bench or making excuses why things aren't working for me.
I built mine out of 4 doug fir 2x12x8's and 2 4x4x8's. Getting a decent species is important and getting dry wood is helpful. But perhaps most important is getting good cuts. You want boards sawn close to the heart with straight secondary grain directions. Chris Schwarz' trick is to look for 16 footers as these are often straighter and clearer.
I added a few period details which you can skip. I also made my bench collapsible. Both made the bench more complicated than it needed to be. But I had a nice 8' bench complete in one weekend for under $100 in materials. Cut a planing stop into the top.
(I actually added Nicholson "bearers" or shear panels to the ends of each set of legs. The planing stop actually bumps up against these which is nice. If you don't use bearers, put your stop against front leg for added stiffness.)
A couple hold fasts and some wooden hand screws and you're in business. I recently added a wooden twin screw face vise, departing from the traditional single screw vise that doesn't work well.
Again, depending on what you are doing, the challenge with workbenches is stiffness. You don't want the thing moving when you are planing or sawing on it. To my simple thinking, you've only got two solutions to stiffness "E" or "I". "E" is the elasticity of the wood in psi. Hard woods have higher "E". "I" is the Moment of Inertia of the assembly. For bending of the top, a thicker top increases "I". The Nicholson bench is designed for junk construction wood with a low "E". But the "I" is huge. Imagine 12" deep floor joists.
Read Chris' book, then go build the Nicholson bench (if you want to use hand tools). Don't screw around with vises and be sure to make it 8' long. I recently abandoned my German bench with its 4" thick laminated beech top and traditional tail vise in favor of my collapsible road bench. Its a fantastic, proven bench designed exactly for the materials you are considering.
Good luck
Adam
Edited 5/23/2008 3:03 pm ET by AdamCherubini
For those building or planning to build a book, I can't emphasize how important it is to read Chris Schwartz's Workbenches book.
" Don't screw around with vises" - When I read this, I first understood that you're recommending he build a bench without a vice (using holdfasts and handscrews for holding stock intead). Then I re-read it and I'm not so sure.
"...make it 8' long" - Better yet, make it longer (if it's not a "pick up and go" bench). Longer is heavier. Heavier is better.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
It's a great book and a fun read.Yeah I would skip building a vise. The reason is that most vises I see guys make almost do more harm than good. And the standard vise with the single screw and guide rails really isn't that helpful or capable anyway. The guide rails really limit what you can do with it and the jaws rack. The old fashioned vises are simply superior. But until you figure that out, I think it's better not to build a vise at all. A big hand screw is inconvenient, but you can get pressure exactly where you want it. It doesn't take long to figure out what sort of vise you want.Adam
Adam,
A big handscrew may be inconvenient, but sometimes it's also the best (or only) way to do something - like planing the edge of a curved lamnation on the benchtop.
I think that it is hard to determine what vise is suitable for your needs without using one. I am starting to question if I really need a standard front vise on my bench in addition to the Twin Screw tail vise. I do a fair amount of handwork (power tools will rarely be used at the bench). I don't really want to incorporate a shoulder vise as it limits the room to walk around (narrow shop).Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
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