Friends,
I just got a new Sjobergs Elite 2000 workbench, and am about to set it up. It says that it has a durable oil based finish on it, but does not say what it is. I just read Frank Klausz’s article on workbenches. He recommends Waterlox. I saw that Andy Rae recommends Waterlox.
My question is: will the Waterlox finish be compatible with whatever oil/? finish that Sjobergs put on it back in Sweden when this thing was made (in the last few years). I noticed in the FWW review of store-bought workbenches that they didn’t like the dull finish that it came with. I have the feeling that what is on it is some combination of linseed oil and ? but do not know.
Of course, I would test anything I was going to put on it on one of the legs before I tried the whole thing, but someone out there may have some specific experience with the Sjobergs workbenches and putting various finishes on them, including Waterlox.
Thank you.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Mel.
Sand the top and wax it! Or.. I have used MinWax and WATCO so called Danish Oil on many projects other than a bench top. I always put on at least one coat of satin wipe on Poly after.
My bench top is just waxed. Sand when needed and apply new paste wax... Followed by a car buffer with a wool pad...
Even with the light coat of Poly above the 'oil' I can sand it off with 120 grit followed by a Green 3M pad and reply the finish with at least a 'fair' match. I usually do a 'section' rather than just the needed repair area. The 'section' would be one vertical or horizontal part. Always works except if the 'project' has been in the sun for a long time. The new finish will be a bit darker if the old work was in the sun.
Yes I ramble on.. I have a old board of Ash and one of Jatoba that I experiment on...
I have even tried applying the oil and a wipe on poly just after the oil flashed off. Rub it out with a new 3M pad and applied other coats of oil and poly using the same same process. I usually use a gray 3M pad to apply the products. Corners are a bummer though!
All I can say is it worked for me. In fact my Baby Changing table I posted in here has a finish like above on it. I have looked at my work many times over the months #just watching the pretty girl grow up#. It sits by a front window that the sun 'sees'.. It looks like new but then again my youngest daughter is a 'clean' nut... I told her to just wax it when needed.
I am not a 'finisher'.. Far from it.. But what I say above it true.. For my experiments.
I 'think' the oil just fills some voids and the poly mixes with it without building up a heavy finish.
Try before you buy!
Edited 7/25/2009 8:30 pm by WillGeorge
>> I just read Frank Klausz's article on workbenches. He recommends Waterlox. I saw that Andy Rae recommends Waterlox.
With due respect to those well-known and well respected woodworkers, IMO a film finish (lacquer, shellac, varnish, poly varnish) is not the way to finish a workbench top. A workbench is going to get dinged and film finishes will crack or craze or be otherwise damaged. Once a film finish is penetrated, it looses its effectiveness and adjacent areas begin to fail. No treatment is going to make a soft wood benchtop harder. I much favor a "in the wood finish". Here are two that lots of folks find effective.
First, is an boiled linseed oil and wax finish. Sand the surface to 180 grit. Mix paraffin or bees wax into heated boiled linseed oil. USE A DOUBLE BOILER TO HEAT THE OIL. The ratio is not critical but about 5-6 parts of boiled linseed oil in a double boiler with one part paraffin or beeswax shaved in. Take it off the stove. Thin this mixture about 50/50 with mineral spirits to make a heavy cream like liquid. Apply this mixture to the benchtop liberally and allow to set overnight. Do it again the next day and again the following day if the top continues to absorb it. After a final overnight, lightly scrape off any excess wax and buff. This finish will minimize the absorption of any water and you can use a damp rag to wipe up any glue excess. Dried glue will pop right off the surface. Renewal or repair is easy. Just use a scraper to remove and hardened stuff, wipe down with mineral spirits using a 3/0 steel wool pad (a non-woven green or gray abrasive pad is better), wipe off the gunk and apply another coat of mineral oil/wax mixture.
My personal preference is for an oil/varnish mixture treatment. Either use Minwax Tung Oil Finish, Minwax Antique oil or a home brew of equal parts of boiled linseed oil, your favorite varnish or poly varnish and mineral spirits. Sand the benchtop up to 180 grit. Apply the mixture heavily and keep it wet for 15-30 minutes. Wipe off any excess completely. Let it dry overnight and the next day, apply another coat using a gray non-woven abrasive pad. Let it set and then wipe off any excess. Let this dry 48-72 hours. To prevent glue from sticking apply a coat of furniture paste wax and you're done. This treatment is somewhat more protective than the wax and mineral oil as the varnish component adds some protection from not only water both some other chemicals also. The waxing makes the surface a little more impervious to water so you can wipe up any liquid adhesive. It also allows hardened adhesive to be scraped off. Repair and renewal is easy. Just go through the same scraping, wiping down with mineral spirits and reapplication of the BLO/varnish/mineral spirits mixture and an application of paste wax.
Both of the above treatments are quite protective but are easy to maintain and renew. They do not fail when the surface takes a ding.
Howie,
Thanks for that very good advise on finishing a workbench. But I got a bit confused. I started by using the recommendation of Waterlox by ANdy Rae and Frank Klausz. You ended by recommending a list of oil and varnish mixes as the way to go. You mentioned Minwax tung oil finish, Minwax Antique Oil, etc. Others have recommended Watco. I believe all of these are pretty much the same, including Waterlox, which is a mixture of Tung oil and some varnish and some driers. If Waterlox is nothing more than a tung oil and varnish mixture, then it fits your bill, doesn't it. Or did I misunderstand something. I think I like an oil/varnish mix, as you recommended rather than linseed/wax mixture.Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The problem is that Waterlox isn't a mixture of tung oil and varnish. It is just straight varnish. The varnish is manufactured using tung oil as an ingredient (the resin is phenolic) in the chemical compound, as opposed to mixture, that is varnish. It can certainly build a film on the surface.
Steve,
Glad you chimed in. So what finish would you use on my new Sjoberg 2000 Elite workbench which had some oil based finish applied when it was made. I will flatten the top. Then what should I apply? An oil-varnish mix such as the Minwax product that FWW rated highly in their review of such mixtures? OK, so I was foolish to think that Frank Klausz and Andy Rae knew what they were talking about in finishing a workbench. I have long wondered about the art of determining which advice to take. I am coming to the conclusion that one should not take advice, but rather, one should seek information until one understands a phenomenon well enough to decide what do do oneself. This idea of a "sheen" on a workbench was brought up by the editors of FWW in their review of ready-made workbenches. They said that the only problem they had with the Sjobergs bench was that it was too dull. So I guess that the trick is to use an oil-varnish mixture which penetrates and then stop applications when a light sheen appears, and then apply wax. Do I understand correctly?Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Personally, I don't like any sort of sheen on a work bench. Why, because sheen implies slippery, and since I clamp things to the bench to work on them, I don't want slippery. I have no finish on my bench (though it isn't pretty to begin with.) I scrape off any glue periodically, and don't worry about dye or stain that has penetrated. It's a tool, not furniture, as far as I am concerned.
Others have different methods of work, and prefer the sheen to help keep glue drops and finish off of the bench. Afterall beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder.
I'd have to see the benches of Klauz and Rae up close to really comment on what they mean. But, you don't really have to build a film with Waterlox. Used as if it were an oil/varnish--apply and then quickly buff off any excess on the surface, and only a couple of applications, and it will look just like an oil/varnish mix, and perform about the same too. For varnish to add protection, it must have the film thickness, but as Howard points out films on the surface are very vulnerable to physical damage, and on a work bench that's likely to occur.
If I am to have a finish, the oil/varnish mix is easy to apply, refreshes easily and will do the job. Wax is entirely your preference.
Howie,
Been using you preference (home brew) since I first saw it here, uh over 4 years ago? Didn't realize it's been that long. I have touched it up here and there over time.
Still looks pretty good so not sure when I'll refinish it. No doubt it doesn't get as much work as yours and I never bothered with the wax component. Didn't want it too slippery. Works great for me, thanks.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/26/2009 9:57 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Howie,
I am learning.
Steve Schoen said that Waterlox is really a varnish and not an oil-varnish mix. I was under the mistaken impression that it was an oil-varnish mixture. Now I understand your response.I won't be finishing my workbench for a few more weeks so I am continuing to read and learn. You made two suggestions, one being a store-bought oil-varnish mix such as Minwax Antique Oil and Minwax Tung Oil. Do you have a favorite between those two? Last question. If you were going to do your workbench, would you use one of the Minwax products or make up your own as you described? If so, which varnish would you use?THanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm going to second Ray on this. I have always used nothing more than natural Watco on the entire bench and waxed the base. I just spent 20 minutes flattening mine about a week ago but... I decided not to bother with anything on the top itself. It makes it light colored which assist my eyes.
And.. when stain spots, etc. start to build which they already have in one week.... I can simply make a couple of light passes with a 6" ROS and some 150 grit. Well... even if I bother to do that as I don't pay much attention to scars and stains. But.. what I don't want is a slick top so I never use wax.
So.. it depends on if you are going to show-case the top on that elite model or use it I would think as slick and shiney is not a factor with the base.
Good luck...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/27/2009 9:20 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,I am not at all worried about my bench looking used. I would be disappointed if it doesn't look used. I was merely trying to find what might be "best" my new and my first "proper" bench. For over three decades, I have used a "workbench" that I bought from Sears, which was a "pressed wood top" over a metal body with drawers and shelves. It looks like it has been through many wars, and I am happy about that. I have had to conjure up interesting ways of clamping things to work on, but I did it. Now with a "real" bench, things will be a bit simpler.After all of the advice I have gotten, I am going to use a minimalist approach to "finishing" my workbench. I will flatten the top, then put some Minwax Antique Oil on it, and then get to work, as soon as possible.When I posted my question, I really didn't have a feeling that I knew the primary parameters of this issue. Now I feel certain that I know the parameters, the alternatives, and the pros and cons, so I can make my own decision. Once again, Knots has provided a forum for excellent learning. To misquote Patton: "Knots is Heaven. God how I love it."Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel.. NASA.. Think simple is better! As long as it worked in the past and you think modern materials! And yes alot of battries that last for years!
>> Steve Schoen said that Waterlox is really a varnish and not an oil-varnish mix. I was under the mistaken impression that it was an oil-varnish mixture. Now I understand your response.Yeah, Steve beat me to it.I just want to emphasize one thing. I have no real quarrel with Andy Rae or Frank Klauz. Both are long time, well respected woodworkers and their advise is going to be about as good as it gets. It's just the workbenches and the finish used can be a somewhat personal thing. If one elects to use a film finish, Waterlox is about the best. But, using a film finish, unless you are very careful and gentle, can be an upkeep intensive project.I know many woodworkers who see no value whatsoever in any type of finish. It is a very valid option and given that the workbench is a tool and not furniture, it works for many.I like the sort of in-between road of some finish but one that is relatively easy to repair or redo. It also gives a degree of protection and looks a little nicer. Steve makes a valid point about not liking a surface that is too smooth or slippery. Clamping things to a bench is a relatively frequent operation. Howie.........
Howie,
Thank you.
You and Steve really grabbed my attention. I now understand the different points of view. I have since gotten yet another idea. I wrote to FWW and asked them about the workbench article, and their recommendation for a finish on the Sjobergs Elite 2000. Mark Schofield wrote back to me and told me that he bought the Sjobergs Elite 2000. He flattened the top, and decided to just go with a coat of wax. He felt it had enough finish on it already. So he is somewhere between you and Steve, who are not all that far apart, and Ray Pine is right in there too. I will look at the bench after I have flattened it. I will either give it a coat of Minwax Antique Oil followed by a coat of wax, or just give it a coat of wax. In any case, I feel like I understand the issue MUCH more than when I posted the question, and I feel confident that I am on the right track. Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, IMHO, a workbench is never finished. It's always waiting for the next ding, scrape or cut. ;-)Hope you have fun with the Sjoberg Elite - it's a nice-looking bench. I tried to get Stimulus funding for one, but they told me "wrench ready" didn't qualify. ;-)
Ralph,
I didn't get the stimulus package for my workbench either.
But working at Woodcraft significantly cut the cost. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That is a nice bench Mel and you should be very proud and especially after stating what you had worked on. But.. I think Ray and I both mentioned we don't use wax on the top as it tends to be slippery before you add it. The oil finishes are great as they are simple to repair.. scuff it with sand-paper and add more oil. It's really a minimal protection and I perfer not to tint the top any for light reflection a oil will go amber. Tung oil will not but takes forever to dry.
So.. if you do wax and then consider it too slippery.. the good news is a good coat of naptha or mineral spirits removes the wax quicker than a heart-beat so... ya got options and several for that matter which can be changed for whatever reason you see fit after you find your winning formula.
Good luck and enjoy the bench.. nice un.....
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Sarge,
You and Steve have influenced me. I don't believe I will use wax.
What you say makes a lot of sense. I have been scraping glue from my worktable top for decades. My scraper will probably work on the new workbench too. :-)
Thanks,
Mel
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Okay, here's what I don't understand.And I've never understood it. I've heard the same opinion, over the years, from a variety of sources. The first time I heard it, I brought it up with Dad, in the late 70's.People say that a finished workbench is too slippery.I brought that up with Dad, and he answered "where did these people learn to clamp?"When I clamp stuff down to my workbench, as per Dad's (RIP) advice, it stays clamped.It does not slide around. It does not move. It does not consider, mention, wish for or in any way contemplate moving.If it does, as per Dad's advice, I re-clamp it until all such notions vanish.So.Given a real clamp, a real clamping ability, and a patient combination of the two, where does this idea that the finish matters come from?I could put glass on top of my workbench, clamp something to it, and work pretty happily, in theory.In reality, I'm pretty sure the glass wouldn't stand up to the clamping...Now, when you answer, don't make Dad mad. I won't be able to help you if you do that.
Edited 7/27/2009 9:37 pm by Jammersix
Uh Dad, or is it Jammer - I use my bench for lots of things, clamping being one of them.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
If you hand plane using on an end stop on the table... a slick table will have a tendency to let the stock slide when you skew as clamps get in the way of a hand plane and can't be used. And I also ROS sand with the stock on top of the work-bench using an end stop on both ends. The motion of the ROS will let the work slip and eventually escape the end stops in this case also as any clamps interfere with the ROS's travel.
So... I and I emphasize I.. don't use wax.. It depends on how you work and what kind of work you makes the decision of how to finish my top. I bet your dad understands there is no cut and dry on this issue. Again... it just depends on what and how to keep it short.
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Ahhhhh.. if you are using your bench for a glue assembly table... You might want to buy as cotton painters tarp a the Box.. cut it into strips the size of the top and lay it on top when you are working with glue. My assembly tables where I glue are a different story with finish.. three coats of poly as the glue pops off easily.
Anytime I have to carry over from two assembly tables glueing (about two weeks ago as a matter of fact) I drop the cotton painters tarps on top. Or evem the cheap thick paper ones will work. Different operations have different needs and solutions.
Again.. enjoy...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Sarge,
My shop is small. It is in the basement and was framed in to be a bedroom. I have learned to "make it work", but the bench needs to be multi-purpose. It is for working wood, doing glue ups, finishing, etc. So my plan was to just make a think plywood top with a few dowels to go into a few dog holes so the false top doesn't slide around. But using a tarp sounds good.You know, a lot of good experience and wisdom has come through in this thread, why not use your influence to convince the FWW editorial staff that it would be good to write an article on "Workbench Finishes - A Realm of Possibilities". I have not found the information that has been collected in this thread anywhere else. Thanks. I like your practical approach to woodworking.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
It seems like a simple question on the surface.. but complication gets added depending on what you intend to use it for. You have gotten some good collective information as to what and why but... you are the key as to how to use the information based on how you will use the bench. And.. even then there will have to be some compromises as you have to think what method is best for you that will cover the most positive ground for your use as I don't think there is totally perfect solution that will cover all of it with any given finish method.
BTW... I did use a melamine false top over my 30 x 46 assembly table once. It was 42 x 60 and I just stood it straight up on a wall until that large was needed. It worked but took too much space when used as my smaller assembly table is in my front shop which is organized but jammed with large machines as it is the cut area. So.. I build a second 48 x 72 assembly table in my rear shop (1/2 basement) to take care of very large carcass needs.
You don't have such an option from your description so... you simply have to compromise as we all do with our given set of circumstances... Life would be good if we all had a 40 x 80 shop but... reality is we don't and probably won't so you improvise with what you have and use it to the fullest ability your imagination will create.
Enjoy that bench as in a few weeks this looming question won't be hanging over your head but their will always be another question to take it's place in the cycle. ha.. ha...
Regards...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
<"Workbench Finishes - A Realm of Possibilities">
You're kidding, right? You have to be. This reminds me of an April Fool's article in a Bicycling Magazine that came out several years ago. The did a fake "review" of a made-up book called "Spoke Nipples of the World." I was halfway into it before I realized it was a joke. That's how gullible I am..
But doing an entire article on workbench finishes? Geez, of all the things in the shop to obsess about, that subject would be right near the bottom of my own, personal list.
Just slap on something on it and get to work. That's what you're always recommending to people who ask questions about sharpening and other items of arcane interest. Take your own advice Mel. Let it go...
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Edited 7/28/2009 8:08 pm ET by Zolton
Then there was the April Fool's joke when I told my kids they didn't have to go to school-- they danced around and sang until their mother told them it was a joke.I think she's still mad at me, but that's okay, we live in separate counties, now.She had no sense of humor...
a few people have mentioned a need to flatten the Sjobergs Elite bench tops. I have ordered one of these benches and it arrives this weekend -- can any of you let me know how much flattening is necessary? to what degree was your benchtop dished?Thanks very much
TWM,
I took my bench home, but won;t be setting it up for a few weeks because I have a large project in the shop. I'll let you know after I flatten it.You asked: "a few people have mentioned a need to flatten the Sjobergs Elite bench tops. I have ordered one of these benches and it arrives this weekend -- can any of you let me know how much flattening is necessary? to what degree was your benchtop dished?"The top may be dished or crowned or both and it may or may not be twisted . You can find instructions checking this lots of places. You will need a pair of "winding sticks" which you can make, to check for a twist. To check for flatness, you need a two foot long straightedge, which you can borrow, or buy from Woodcraft or plenty of other places. You will need a jointer plane, a #7 or #8 to do the flattening, and then you will need to smooth it. You can use a #4 plane and then do some sanding or go direct to sanding. I would recommend a random orbit sander. How much work will depend on what you find when you check for flatness and for twist. You should read up on this, and then try to find someone in your area who might help you out the first time. You will find film clips on the web of router jigs for flattening a table top. One of the folks who tried this, wrote that while doing it, they used a new router, and setting of the depth "slipped" while they were doing the procedure. DISASTER. YOu can do a lot of damage very quickly with a machine. I recommend using a jointer plane. Of course, there are lots of ways of doing everything, so you need "to pick your poisen"Whatever you do, HAVE FUN.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
A $10.00 LASAR level will tell you.. IF you have a $500.00 bubble level!
I don't think anyone can answer that but you when it arrives after you put a straigh-edge or winding sticks on it. You may not have to flatten at all and then you may as no two benches will be the same IMO. They are wood and depending on where.. when.. etc. of where they were stored.. how flat were they taken to at factory assembly.. etc.
So... I think you will know the answer as soon as you get the bench and not a minute before. Probably going to be acceptable but.... Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
I agree with what has already been said, but I'd add that you might not want to do anything for a few weeks after assembly of the new bench. That is, give it time to acclimate to your environment, and see what it (the wood) does. Or, you might even check it for flatness once assembled, and then again every week or so for some period, keeping notes about any changes. In other words, let the bench stabilize before taking any drastic action.
I would agree with what has been said about using a straightedge and winding sticks. I would add that I use a long plane such as a jointer plane and hone the plane iron as I would a smoothing plane.
Yep... the #7 jointer gets the call at my shop but.... when I flattened a week ago the area that was not flat was a 4" wide strip on one end about 18" long in almost dead center. A #5 jack got the call as it was sufficient to handle that width of raised surface. Around 8 minutes and sweep up the shavings... Next! ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/29/2009 9:16 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Mel,
Now that you have a Sjoberg Elite bench, I suppose you will become one of those woodworking elitists.
I put a coat or two of Minwax Antique oil on my bench every 5 or 10 years, whether it needs it or not. Last time was in the '90's I believe.
Seriously, I do not like a shiney slick surface to work on. Stuff slides around enough on a smooth bench top as it is, wiithout making it slicker still with a layer of finish. Also, my old eyes need a lot of light, and a glare reflecting back off the surrounding bench makes it even harder for me to see what I'm boogering up.
Still, those brass and googaboola tools sure look good all lined up on a polished bench top...
Ray
Ray,
Yup, I have come to the same conclusion - a minimalist approach. I will flatten the top and put on some Minwax Antique Oil, and them some wax and leave it at that. My beautiful old #6 wooden plane will look very good on a bench finished in that way.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I kinda like my shellac finish, just two coats of sealer thin coats. Keeps most things from penetrating. Easy to scape if needed. For glue up I throw a chunk of 1/4" melamine over it, throw it away when I am sick of looking at it. Now my bench is a bit odd, and having never worked on a Sjoberg or such, I probably don't know what I missing.
Morgan, not afraid to bring up the Shellac word....
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Morgan,
The reason I bought the Sjobergs is very practical. I work at Woodcraft and that is t he bench that they sell. So I get it at 10% over cost. I didn't buy it because it is "fancy" or expensive. They only carry one brand. Sjobergs makes two sizes of their good workbench, and two very cheap/light workbenches. I got the smaller of the two good ones because the big one wouldn't fit in my shop. I like your melamine idea. Sarge recommended a tarp. I have one of those. But I will keep the melamine idea in mind. Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
A workbench will wear over time due to use in primarily the same place and will need to be resurfaced by hand planing. The wood may shrink over time in some places more than others. It may also change due to the change in environment from where it was made. Resurfacing will need to be done. If a bench has a finish on it that will make resurfacing much harder.I have known people who have used boiled linseed oil on their workbench and that seemed to work fine.
don't forget it's a workbench.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled