MY QUESTION –
I am curious if woodworking as a hobby or as a profession is increasing or decreasing.
MY BACKGROUND –
I am a tyro woodworker although I’ve been on the fringe for a lot of years. One of the things I’ve learned is that there are lots of knowledgeable people in this forum. I live 20 miles west of Boston and I’ve seen the only woodworking shop within 20 miles close. I find I need to travel quite far to find a good source of hardwood. It also seems that hardwood is so expensive that it would be a discouraging factor for anyone (like me) on a tight budget. I’ve used pine, red oak, white oak, and redwood for personal projects (Adirondack furniture) and the the cost of just the wood (except the pine) has been close to what I would expect to pay for the finished product. I will also note that I find the cost of tools remarkably low: it seems like there are lots of “almost industrial quality” tools for small money.
The Wood Loon
Acton, MA
Replies
Doug,
you brought up a number of topics, but your main topic was is woodworking getting more or less popular.
Look at the high schools. Do they teach woodworking or shop any more? Very few do. When I went through high school, every boy knew what a hand plane was. I don't think most high schoolers would know what a hand plane is anymore.
The current generation of middle and upper middle and upper class kids in the US were brought up to GO TO COLLEGE AND BE A SUCCESS. We taught them to improve their minds, and to WIN WIN WIN at everything they do.
I don't believe we spent enough time telling the kids that working with one's hands is a good, fulfilling, satisfying hobby.
I work two half days a week at a Woodcraft store. There seems to be two sets of customers: the contractors and the "high end hobbyists". The contractors age from their 20s to their 60s. The High End Hobbyists seem to be retired or near retirement, and with a half dozen exceptions, all men. I don't see many youngsters, that is, kids in their mere 40s or 50s getting into woodworking as a hobby.
I am a member of the Washington Woodworkes Guild. I am fairly sure the average age is in the 50s. I am a member of the Northern Virginia Carvers. I would bet the average age is in the mid sixties. Sometimes we joke about buying a defibrulator in case someone needs to be jumpstarted during a meeting. (Humor)
I am afraid that woodworking as a hobby is going the same way that Ham Radio did -- right down the tubes. (that was supposed to be humorous, but it is also true). Remember when kids got into HiFi stereo stuff? No more. Remember when all boys could usually be found under their cars. Well, that was back in the 1950s and early 60s. Do you see much of that anymore? I don't think so.
On Knots, we get some great youngsters, such as Chris (flairwoodworks) and Ray Pine, who has a great future in woodwork, if he can only keep his focus. He spends too much time on his Indian Motorcycle. BUT WE DON"T GET MANY YOUNGSTERS HERE ON KNOTS.
Not only am I predicting the end of woodworking as a hobby by Feb 23, 2034, but there is something that is going to happen concomitantly with that. With fewer people knowledgeable about woodworking, and less interested in woodworking, there will be far fewer (approximately none) who are interested in woodworking tools. SO, if any of you have collections of old valuable tools, NOW IS THE TIME TO SELL THEM. Don't wait until it is too late. Send them to me in a carton, carefully wrapped, and I'll send you a dollar for each of them that I like.
So, get in all of your woodworking in the next few years, while ther are still others who know what a Dado and a rabbet are. Enjoy it. Woodworking is fun. But it is going the way of the dinosaurs.
By the way, this will cause some problems for the museums who have collections of old furniture to take care of. The world will continue to need on the order of 15 to 25 woodworkers internationally to do this. These folks will be very valuable and well paid. No one else will know what Renaissance wax is.
Hope my message caused you to do some thinking and some grinning. I have absolutely no idea what is going to happen. My message is proof positive that you should not believe anything you read on Knots. But the others won't tell you this. I am the only one you can believe.
Have fun,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think a lot of kids learn the hobby from their parents. When I was Engineering College, there were far too many of my friends who claimed they would never take a job that required them to wear a hard hat. Apparently, they were above that sort of thing. SO, these people were not the type to expose their children any manual craft.
I remember watching my grandfather occasionally built his own furniture. He had very basic tools. I rarely saw him reach for his power tools. His manual hand drill was chosen over the drill press or electric drill, and a block of wood and sandpaper over the power sander. I always wanted to try the power tools, but he would not permit me to use them. I never saw him use his lathe, and the radial arm saw only a few times. Even if he weren't building furniture, he was tinkering in his workshop.
When I was a child, 4H offered opportunities in woodworking. When I was in high school, the shop program provided extensive woodworking and metal working opportunities.
My children (6, 8, and 10) love to build things. They may never be professional craftsmen, but they already have a love for woodworking as a hobby. They already know the satisfaction of building or repairing things and are asking for tools for gifts.
That said, I am noticing the demise of other crafts. I was a photographer for nearly 20 years. The last few in the profession have witnessed a dilution of the craft by the digital era. I'm not a purist, but there are so many people in the field who know nothing of posing and lighting who are flooding the market with an inferior product that the public has bought into. Many are better at sales than at their craft and I see them go in and out of business like people going through a revolving door.
Like many woodworkers, photographers think they need to buy more or better equipment or software filters to turn out better work. The real answer for most craftsmen is the same: I can buy a Mont Blanc, but it won't make me a better author.
Fostering better skill building and promoting projects that expose our children to the craft is key to its survival. Keeping shop classes going in high schools. Stores like Woodcraft can do cool one-day projects for children. Even Home Depot and Lowes have a project build day one Saturday each month.
What else can we do?Greg
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Greg,
I agree with everything you said. You are lucky to have had a grandfather who gave you an intro to woodworking, and who passed on his values (the most important thing). You are lucky that you had crafts in school. Like you I tried to pass my love of crafts to my three children. One builds robots for a living. One designs bridges. One is in Business Computing. All three enjoy craft work.Good luck to you and yours.
Thanks for writing such a nice message.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Greg,I believe that the dilution you saw in photography has already happened in woodworking... it proceeded photography by a good 20 years. To see the popularity of the craft one really only needs to look at the number of different woodworking magazines. Fine woodworking is even sold at Costco...There are lots of really mediocre woodworkers out there, and that's being kind. But with the numbers there are bound to be a few gems. Looking around I'm always amazed by the quality of the work I find. Buster
Even Home Depot and Lowes have a project build day one Saturday each month.
Good point. I was at a Lowes that is a a bit further than I like to travel. I usually go to the one close to me.
The one close to me I hardly see projects for kids. Usually just for woman or maybe only the women stop and play awhile?. Not that that is bad.
The Lowes further away had tables lined up for 50 feet or so and each table had at least four children making something. The instructors were all young women. OK, so it was crafts, but they were making something out of different materials, even wood (no power tools though) and all the parents seemed to be having fun also.
I even stayed awhile and watched the children doing something different. I'd bet at least one or two of them may become woodworkers.
As an additional observation that may sound racist but is NOT intended that way! The Lowes near me is full of us old white folks and almost all look grumpy! The store with all the children 'with parents in tow' were almost all Hispanic or Black, and happy.
Just an observation.
Great post.
I don't see many youngsters, that is, kids in their mere 40s or 50s getting into woodworking as a hobby.
Jeez. At 31, by your standards, I'm a toddler!
Woodworking as a hobby is very restrictive. It's expensive, time consuming, and requires a decent amount of space. Typically things the younger crowd doesn't have. To be young, and to be a woodworker involves a lot of dedication.
Buster,
great to hear from you. Good to know a young woodworker. My ideas about woodworking are HIGHLY non-standard for Knots. You said that it is expensive, time consuming and takes a lot of space to do woodworking. IT CERTAINLY CAN. But it doesn't need to. For my first decade in woodworking, I lived in apartments and worked on the balconies of the apartments on a home made bench made from scraps from a construction site. I only had a circular saw, a jig saw, a router, a drill and some hand tools. I think I made some nice furniture with a minimum of expense, hardly any room, and in my spare time.Now I carve a lot. Carving doesn't take much space. You can do it in the kitchen where the light is good if you are a whittler or a chip carver. If you carve larger stuff, all you need is a room with space for a small workbench. I believe most tools can be bought second hand, and there is NO NEED to buy expensive stuff. If you are rich, buy and buy and buy. If you want to do woodwork, adequate tools can be had reasonably and often cheaply on Craig's list, garage sales, etc.Have fun. Focus on making masterpieces. Everything else can fall in line with the space, time and money you have available.
Let me know if I can help.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Good post Mel ,
The spendy fancy tool works made by designer tool makers are really in a niche market very unique from the garden variety tools .There will always be specialty market for most goods where some people will always be willing to pay the price ,Cigars for example .
(don't get me wrong I would love a Marcou and a few of Mike's saws )
I really believe in and can relate to what you said about tools not needing to be expensive , second hand used will do the job .
I have been in business for close to 28 years and primarily have purchased used machines with very few exceptions , the wood never knew !
So much emphasis seems to be made on what brand is used , that is the niche crowd who may be able to afford what all the others want also .
I honestly believe the actual tools we use are merely a vehicle , we know how to get there .I have seen pure works of talent and skill performed with few tools , as well as a well equipped shop that may produce junk.
Please folks , don't feel you can't do the work without the fancy or big tools , it is not what you have but what you know that counts .
Lastly , we have talked about this before but I strongly feel it is our privilege and duty as craftsmen to teach and mentor and pass our wisdom as well as our skills on to those who seek the knowledge .
regards dusty , pass it on brothers
Dusty," I honestly believe the actual tools we use are merely a vehicle , we know how to get there .I have seen pure works of talent and skill performed with few tools , as well as a well equipped shop that may produce junk."I have beeen spouting these ideas as long as I have been on Knots, and I have been regularly criticized for it. Obviously that has not stopped me. I keep trying to push a focus on SKILLS rather than TOOLS. The "tool gang" regularly razzes my ideas. I understand this. I keep saying that if such and such a tool was needed to do good work, then Ray, Rob, Richard, Dusty, and the other professionals would have the tool, and they don't. Obviously the tool guys dont hold the pros in as high esteem as the rich old hobbyists who obsess about tools. I guess I will never be in the "Center" of the the current wisdom of the tool crowd on Knots. I must go now and weep and nash my teeth, and rent my garments, or maybe I'll just have a hot fudge ice cream sunday. OK that sounds great.Thank you for a great message. Please keep saying it, and say it loud.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I second the second hand tools comment. The trick seems to be ready so you can buy when opportunity presents itself. The temptation is to buy new - the latest electronics and the colored anodized aluminum with the shiny trim is tantalizing. I saw a video tour of David Marks workshop. He purchased most of his stuff used in the early days. He refurbished, tuned it, and he still uses it today. Most of us should be able to rebuild and tune well built older machinery. And the satisfaction that comes with restoring a tool and then using it is equal to the satisfaction of building a piece of furniture.The initial skill comes in looking at an abandoned machine and knowing whether you can put it in working order.Greg
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Cincinati,EXCELLENT, DUDE.
I agree completely.
Keep stating that stuff.
Soon our crowd will take over. (but probably not) :-)
Have fun.
Keep the faith.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
As a 27 year old who's been an avid amateur woodworker since high school, I'd have to say the majority of my friends aren't into woodworking, at least not as seriously as I am. However they all think it's amazing that I can make almost anything starting with rough lumber or pallet wood (sometimes).
On the other hand I do have friends who are professional woodworkers. It's not easy, but has it ever been? And how many woodworkers go into it for the money?
Quite honestly, I'd have to say that the state of woodworking is at its peak, RIGHT NOW! When at any time in the past has a woodworker had such access to such a treasure trove of knowledge, equipment, and materials? Post almost any question on Knots and you'll have knowledgeable responses in short order. Have a tool you want? Just go on online and it'll be on its way to your house in the morning, you don't even have to get off the couch to order it. You can say whatever you want about the masterpieces of the past, look though the gallery and you'll find pieces that rival anything in a museum. If you really want masterpieces, go the SAPFM website.
I think people gloss over how easy it is to teach yourself anything about woodworking and then go do it. How many apprentices in the 18th and 19th century had access to such a bonanza of knowledge? Not many I would argue.
Yes there is a lot of garbage being made that shouldn't ever see the light of day, but it's been way since men lived in caves. If you want quality it's never been easier to find or make it yourself.
I wonder how many of those old men at Woodcraft were doing the type of woodworking they are now when they were younger? My guess is most were too busy working and raising families. Now that they have free time, Woodcraft is the beneficiary. I wouldn't get too worried about not seeing young people in the hobby. There are a lot, and just because the guy who's 30 isn't making his own furniture now doesn't mean he won't be in 30 years.
Matt
When people see my work 100 years from now, they'll know I cared.
Matt ,
" How many apprentices in the 18th and 19th centuries had access to such a bonanza of knowledge ? "
Matt , the Masters of the time did not have the bonanza you speak of either and they became Masters .
What you have overlooked imo is the apprentice had a Master to learn from , a constant flow of knowledge and skills was passed down over and over again . The teachings were state of the art then , the basics are still what is important when you get right down to it .
Drawing , sharpening a chisel and more , understanding the properties of different woods and metals and related mediums .
Balance , scale & design capabilities come in time . Simple tasks done by trained hands speak volumes . Personally I learned best when I saw the tool being used and saw the new method before my eyes , then eventually even the apprentice gains confidence then on our own we venture out of the box but never forget how we learned to do things to the best of our ability .
dusty, a boxmaker
Matt,I thought your post was well thought out and I agree on most of your points. But of course, every stick has two ends. My own career in woodworking was launched on my dad's workbench, but after that I've been self-taught ever since. The downside of being self-taught is that you rarely push yourself beyond the limits of your capacity, which is exactly what a master's role can be. There are aspects of woodworking that only lately (I just hit 60) I regret that I haven't really explored. So yes, I agree that now things are very very good. But we need to temper that with the understanding of what's missing as well.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
The company owned Rockler store in Danvers Mass is closing the end of March. Just in case you shop there.Ron
Of course Mel there are always exceptions to the rule. Though I think apartment woodworking seems to be common. Actually my first apartment had a no power tool rule in the lease... I always thought it was strange until I joined Knots. In the end woodworking on a balcony takes a pretty dedicated person (particularly in Calgary... where it's freezing half the year and windy the rest).Carving, Marquetry, Scroll work, Turning (to an extent) and even hand tool woodworkers can get away with a minimum amount of space. But I have to be honest, I don't think my wife would be to pleased if I was chip carving at the kitchen table.As for cost, tools and wood are not cheap. Often the cost of wood is more expensive than comparable store bought furniture.Time ultimately is my constraint. My two boys are my #1 priority, so weeknight time is very limited. If I can get out there by 9pm for an hour, I'm happy. Often though I'm to run down from the playing to safely work in the shop (though I've been getting better at going out for an hour of cleaning...). My weekends are a little more flexible, my wife often takes the boys out on Sunday so I can get a full afternoon at least.
Buster,
"My two boys are my #1 priority,"
Three cheers for you. You got your priorities straight. My three range from 28 to 34, and are married and on their own. But while they were growing up, the focus was on them. Homework, projects, sports, Boy Scouts, family outings. I always suggested that they "go for the gold" but never put pressure on to do that. For example, when they would paint Easter Eggs, the tendency was to make stars and rainbows and things. I would suggest that they paint the Last Supper, and the Crucifixion scene, The Ascention into Heaven, portraits of our family, etc. You know, in the "Last Supper" eggs, I couldn't tell which apostle was which, but I knew which eggs were The Last Supper and which were the Crucifixion scenes. I think that did them some good in terms of tackling more complex stuff and having fun with it. The most important thing we do is to pass on the wisdom to the kids. When they were growing up, I did far less woodwork. But I did build a small workbench, and they were often down in the workshop with me, nailing dozens of nails into a two by four or painting and repainting and repainting a piece of wood. Those were good times. Now I am a grandfather. I took one year old Freddy down to the workshop a few times, and he got "BIG EYES". He wants everything, and everything serves as a teething ring. I said no when it came to my Lie Nielsen Low Angle Adjustable Mouth block plane. He pitched a fit. Apparently, he really likes that little plane. Cost of tools -- Buy em used. Only buy what you need. That minimizes the cost but doesn't eliminate it.Cost of wood -- It ain't cheap, but one can get creative. Recycling wood is not a bad idea. Have you seen what can be made from pallets? Also, much of my woodwork is carving. It doesn't take much wood to make a very nice complex box. Glad you wrote. Have fun up there in the frozen North. Part of my early woodworking was in Binghamton, New York (on a balcony of an apartment). Binghamton is in Ripley's Believe It or Not, as the city in the US with the fewest number of days per year of full sunshine. But I'll bet your weather is colder than Binghamton's.Have fun. Make some masterpieces. They take more time, but no more wood. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel... Here is me not putting pressure on my son (his twin brother was still napping.)Ben will be my little hand tool user. He really doesn't like load noises, and I literally scared the poop out of him one day when mom bought him to the workshop door just as I was turning on the dust collection!
Edited 3/3/2009 11:32 pm by Buster2000
Buster,
Your kid is absolutely adorable. But he looks a bit bored with the Lee Valley router plane. Maybe if you had bought the Lie Nielsen, he would have been more excited!!!! NO BIASES AROUND HERE! Isn't that what the tool reviewers claim???I used to take my three (one at a time) down to the shop and they would drive nails into wood, glue things, clamp things, and paint wood. They would do that for long periods of time and be completely absorbed with it. NO POWER TOOLS FOR KIDS UNDER 18 months!!!!! I never let them watch Norm Abrams until they were at least two years old.I now have one grandkid, Freddy, who is (along with all of my Knots friends) the light of my life. He is 14 months old. I take him to the shop and he gets big eyes. I sit him on the mat that keeps my tools from breaking when they fall, and he likes to play with the C-clamps (NOT MY BESSEYs). I spend time sitting next to him, keeping the clamps out of his mouth. I don't sterilize my tools very often, so that wouldn't be good. I asked him which tools he prefers, and he definitely said "Lie Nielsen". When he looked into my marking and measuring drawer, he also distinctly said "Tite Mark" and "Blue Spruce". I don't know if the little tyke actually reads or recognizes the tools. Maybe they use those things on his favorite TV Channel "Noggin". I asked him "Freddy, pins first or tails first?" and he said "Tails". Smart kid. Here is a photo of him when he first learned how to drive.Have fun with yours. They grow up too darned fast. Thank God for grandkids. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You are depriving that boy. He needs an Indian to ride.
Ray
Ray,
Waddyamean "no Indian"?
Doesn't that look like a little Indian that he is riding?
The salesman said that it is a "Junior Indian".
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
If it was an Indian there would be oil on the carpet. Real motorcycles mark their spot!
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Mel,
don said it all in his post. But, Freddy is off to a good start nonetheless.
To get back on topic, two of my sons friends have recently gotten onto woodworking. One of them said, it is expensive, but not as expensive as going to the bars every nite.
Ray
Ray,
"but not as expensive as going to the bars every nite."Do you actually have bars out there in Mt. Crawford?Mel
PS glad to hear we have two more recruits. Once they see that you are getting out of Chippendale and into Art Nouveau, I believe they will get even more excited about the newer trends in woodwork. :-)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Bars in Mt Crawford?
Of course not. But the big 'burg is but a stones throw away.
One of these gents is into traditional craft. He's interested in muzzleloading guns, powderhorns, etc, and restoring a ww2 era jeep. He did some of the work on that music stand I posted in the long thread.
The other (former barhopper) has a more contemporary bent to his interests. His first ww project was a set of bookshelves that sort of look like a set of stairs sticking out of the wall a foot or so. I thought it was pretty innovative.
Ray
Ray,
Your friend built a bookshelf?
You have books in Mt. Crawford?OK OK I will stop kidding about Mt. Crawford. I don't want to get the mayor and the town council (either one of them) mad at me. I was brought up in Windsor Locks, Connecticut. It was in Ripley's Believe it or Not as the only town in the United States with a one sided main street. (Maybe I told you that before. Sometimes I repeat myself. Sometimes I repeat myself.) I would like to explore Mt. Crawford. Do you have those bus tours like they do in DC? MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Every body has one, but nobody likes a smart one.
Come down sometime, and I'll give you the grand tour of Mt C. It will take maybe 15 mins. The Ruritan Hall is also the town council building, and site of the park/ athletic complex (2 ball diamonds). They (council) are planning a huge annexation from the county. It will quadruple the size of the town, and the population will soar as a consequence. Some say it will more than double the number of inhabitants, to almost 1000 people! The annexation will also take in a stop lite, now in the county, so that folks may actually have a place to stop, coming thru town. We'll also have a gas station with fast food restaurant then. Progress! Who says the country is in a tailspin?
Ray
Ray,
As I remember, I had a great time at the Ruritan Hall in Mt. Crawford at a meeting of tool collectors a few years ago. That was as nice a group as you could fine. I tried to pay for snacks, and they told me it was already covered by the lunch fee I had paid. Lunch was great BBQ and fixins. I was just giving your town a hard time because it reminded me of the one I grew up in. I go back to visit my father. The memories of small town living have not faded. You may detect a hint of jealousy.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Gotta love Freddy.
Tom.
Marti/Aaron,
I agree with you guys totally. Our generation wants it easy, and I think they are now waking up to the idea that IT AIN'T SO. Unfortunately, it will take a while for it to truly sink in. I could talk for hours on how TV and instant gratification had destroyed our generation, but I'll leave that for another time.
I must say that I've always received great service at my local Woodcraft (Woodridge, IL - maybe it's location is a sign of good tidings). The staff has always been helpful and willing to answer any questions. I also see many people of all ages, although very few as young as me. Like I said, you can pick up a hobby at any time in your life.
Matt
Matt,
Good to see a young guy like you who is into woodworking. Keep it up. You'll get a lot of support here. I work in the Woodcraft in Springfield, VA a few afternoons a week, and enjoy it. Glad you like the store near you. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Tom,
" Gotta love Freddy."Truer words were never spoken.
Grandchildren were meant to be spoiled, and I am doing my best. So far, it's working.Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Herewith my 'hobbyist' perspective.I don't think kids today have the time to have a hobby like woodworking. There are simply too many other exciting things to do and see. However once you get to that middle age part of your life, either the kids have left home or grown up and therefore there's now time to spend on a hobby.Here in South Africa our disposable income is way way less than say in the States and most if not all the equipment is imported so there are duties which bump up the price.I don't see woodworking losing its appeal any time soon but I have noticed a disturbing trend lately and that's one of young men well into their 30s still playing online computer games with their friends instead of spending time being better husbands and fathers.As a professional woodworker in South Africa? I really don't know. Here the masses seem to love the ebony stained plywood/chipboard furniture and clearly don't know a good thing if the mahogany bookcase were to fall on them.Regards from a warmish Johannesburg.
Hilton
hey buster,
i too am a younger,serious woodworker (39) but have been at it now for about 18 years. I'm a general contractor that has a love for the finer end of the trade, furnitue,cabinets,humidors,and anything else that shows true pride in the craft. I agree that time and space are hard to find, I have a seven year old daughter and a full workload but i'm sure like you i find the time to build something that gives you that sense of pride that's hard to explain. As far as the cost goes you're right, good tools are expensive and i hate to buy crap that i will outgrow in a year. Anyways it was to read a younger perspective.
Thanks, Finiky
I have a seven year old daughter and a full workload but i'm sure like you i find the time to build something that gives you that sense of pride that's hard to explain.
Right there is a common challenge many of us face. I know I have. I might add, I had to deal with moving every 3 years to places not always of my choosing(AF). You find a way.
Taking your message I want to point out one of the really nice things about woodworking-- you can put it down for fairly long periods of time and come back and continue. That's a nice thing about woodworking for pleasure. Unlike playing an instrument while raising children, time away from the instrument makes coming back and catching up difficult and at time frustrating. I didn't get that with wood like I did with the guitar.
In my case, I adapted the projects to where I was and what was available around me. In Europe there was a shortage of cherry.. for that matter most hardwood. I got into carving in a small space. I had good lighting and Swiss made chisels were all over the place(used and new). I might add, lots of incredible roccoco designs to store in your visual memory. As an aspiring carver, I sketched designs all the time. It's woodworking.. I used a wooden pencil back then.
In New Mexico it was hard to build Windsor chairs. Fine. Learn about veneering and vacuum bags. Lots of opportunities to get good at this specialty. I was there during the segmented bowl explosion. Lots of artists doing demos up the road in Santa Fe. Its not like building an Adirondack Guideboat but its what you do with what is around you. I'm still learning about that .. love the stuff. Now back on the east coast I have more wood than I know what to do with next. Things change and you adapt and add it to your skill bag.
keep adding
dan
Taking your message I want to point out one of the really nice things about woodworking-- you can put it down for fairly long periods of time and come back and continue.
For some of us younger guys this thread brings up the question of life balance. While life often gets in the way of planning. I've found that saying "I'm going to spend this Sunday in the shop!"; has been working for me the last few months. I may not get the full day, but at least everyone knows where I stand...
I guess one way to evaluate the state of hobbyist woodworking would be to look at sales..are the number of Woodcrafts and Rocklers increasing or decreasing? There seems to be more woodworking mags around and the number of manufacturers of machinery and hand tools seems to be increasing. I don't know if they are all chasing the same fifty people or if there is an actual increase in the number of table saws. band saws, routers, etc being purchased...when I talk to Dave Jesch or Mike Wensloff, they are having trouble keeping up with orders...my brother who got into woodworking twenty years ago and then kind of lost interest, is amazed at what's available today and how inexpensive alot of the power tools are relative to then....he talks about pouring through the Craftsman and Garrett Wade catalogues as the highlight of tool availability back then...seems like there is a resurgence of interest on the hobbyist front...but that's just my impression.
Neil
Neil,
I hope your are correct and that there is a resurgence of interest in woodworking. I believe the two groups powering Woodcraft and Rockler are the contractors and the older affluent male hobbyists. I don't see ANY youngsters during my two half days a week. Maybe they come in when I am not there. Older affluent male hobbyists don't seem to hold back at all. WHen they want something, they seem to buy it. Higher cost seems to make it more desirable. In the past few days, I asked a couple of hobbyists what they were going to use the tool that they were buying for. Both responded that they didn't have any plans, but the tool was on sale.Wow.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
I readily admit I like high quality tools and willingly purchase them if I think I can use them...I would not think of criticizing your view that it is the user, NOT the tool that makes the difference in the end...I have neither the talent nor the inclination to rehab any machinery and would much rather spend the money on, say, an 18" Grizzly bandsaw than track down an old whatever and spend weeks or months making it into a great bandsaw...I certainly admire those that can and do. For some it is an economic necessary, for others it is philosohical or just plain enjoyable. More power to them. I am fortunate to have enough money at this time in my life to buy some "high end" tools..but I don't buy everything that comes down the line...if someone gave me a multirouter I'd be happy but would never spend the 2.5K it costs because it doesn't really fit into my style of woodworking..the same with all the Festool products...I'm sure they are better than my Dewalts and Porter Cables but I just don't see the need...I sure do Like my S20A though....a resurgence in woodworking interest may be an old timers phenomenon (although at 60 I can still run half marathons and don't feel old yet) but it appears to be a growing mobvement...it's likely that the younger generation has neither the time nor the money yet to adopt are hobby/advocation
Neil, the passionate elderly woodworker
Neil,
I looked and looked in your message for something to argue with but I failed.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I don't see ANY youngsters during my two half days a week. Maybe they come in when I am not there. Older affluent male hobbyists don't seem to hold back at all. WHen they want something, they seem to buy it.
Well here's another thought.. I am not a youngster, I work wood just about everyday but... I have not been to a Woodcraft store or looked at their mag in 20 years.
So is woodworking up or down?
A big part of woodworking is done out of necessity. That's how I got started(got the bug). There might be a situation that leads us back to working with our hands out of necessity or cost??
I have worked with young folks everyday for a long time. They grew up with microwaves, air-conditioning and cell phones. They are different. As a rule: they are very impatient with any process that moves in start and stop stages. Its tough for them.
If I were guessing at the future of hobby ww, I would think the power tools will continue to impress the next generation and the chisels and carving tools will fade a bit.
Dan,
I love your woodwork.
I love the way you think.
You are a positive go-getter.
You are a leader.
I hope youngsters follow your lead into woodwork.I didn't go into woodwork out of necessity. I did it for the thrill of designing and building things for myself, in my free time. We all have different motives. The main reason for the decrease in woodworking interest among the young is the demise of shop class in High School. Doing away with "Shop" was a bad thing.Oh well. Let's work toward getting more youngsters involved.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
gd,
in 1975 i was aware of a huge, new interest in ww. there were new stores selling high end hand tools. many of the older hippies were setting up shop as furniture makers. there were several unique styles floating around. i took up carving, got into fww magazine and so on.
seems to me the interest has not waned at all since those days. the face of it has changed. there are of course new designs and the technology is better.
did i answer your question?
eef
Edited 2/25/2009 2:43 pm ET by Eef
It is hard to know for sure if woodworking is more popular or not. But I have to think so as there has been a huge increase in technology in the past decade or so.Think about the new routers and the jigs for them. There were plunge routers 20 years ago but nothing like now. Now there are a huge number of commercial jigs available to help with all sorts of projects.Biscuit joiners are fairly new. And now the new Domino has taken that to a new level.Table Saw technology has exploded.Random orbit sanders didn't exist that long ago. Pocket hole jigs were fairly unknown.None of these would have happened if there wasn't a market to sell them.I, too, belong to the local woodworkers guild. I would guess that the average age is also not young but we do have a reasonable number of younger members.Two of my sons are woodworkers, one of them pretty serious. The serious one has a lot of friends who are serious woodworkers.I hope it does not decline in popularity. I work at a desk job but enjoy working with my hands. I view woodworking as my meditation time and I really enjoy the process as well as the ohoo's when I finish a project. Domer
At the hobby level this is a middle aged (and older) man's hobby for the most part. I'm not saying there are no women or young folk, just that the fact is that it mostly seems to appeal to us older guys.
Wood and tools - the satisfaction of producing with your hands something that will be valued over time is attractive. It will continue to be to those who like to putter and create.
It's popularity may wax and wane, but it is such a traditional and timeless activity, that it will always have a following.
I was glad to see this topic. I was just thinking about it this last week as I saw two new woodworking shows to DVR in addition to NYW: American Woodworker and the Woodsmith Shop.
As for a demographic, I'm a 'youngster' (37) with a young family (ages 8, 6, and 3) and Buster is right, it can be expensive and time consuming so I can certainly relate to needing a level of dedication to fit it in. I also bought into the 'go to college and be a success' mantra which I did. I also didn't have a dad or a grandpa to teach and indoctrinate me into WW (but I will say my hammer is my fondest childhood toy). I guess I'm lucky enough to have a 'why pay someone else to do it when I can do it better myself' mentality which I guess over a period of years led me into this hobby (ww'ing and remodeling).
With all that being said, after sitting in my office for 10 hours a day (I'm in the technology field), I can't wait to get my hands dirty. There is nothing like the satisfaction of doing something yourself, with you own two hands, using all you senses, and being able to stand back and admire what you've accomplished. I'm doing my best to teach my own children that satisfaction as well. I'm finishing my basement myself (wiring, plumbing, tile, drywall, cabinets, etc.) and my son is with me constantly - learning every step of the way. He just installed a toilet and vanity with me this week.
On to the popularity question. Since I was not taught at a young age, I've had to teach myself. I've never had a shop class. I've never worked a job in the field to learn by apprenticeship. But we live in different times - most of my learning has come from magazines, TV and the Internet - not just learning technique but the inspiration to try thus learning by doing. It is amazing the resources offered today for pay and free. In the 10 or so years I've been deep in the hobby, it's incredible how much the online community has grown (online magazines, blogs, videos). Same goes for TV thanks to HGTV, DIY, and the like. In that sense - id say popularity is rising. If it wasn't those venues would dry up, not expand. That medium can also expose the younger generation to this great hobby since that is definitely 'their language'.
Just my 2 cents (maybe 10)
Steve
I think that woodworking as a profession is declining, particularly in the cabinet and furniture areas because too many people want cheap before quality and woodworkers just can't make a living that way. I know there are still people willing to pay for good stuff but their numbers are too small to support much of an industry.
As a hobby though, woodworking appears to be getting bigger. My site got a major bump in traffic over the last year, roughly the same period in which many feel recession really took hold. Maybe people just are staying home and doing more in their shops or are building things for their homes rather than buying. I am not sure of the why but if the traffic numbers are any indication, there are lots more people being more active in home woodworking these days.
Tom Hintz
Because there is always more to learn!
Gee, I hope that wasn't New England Hardwood in Littleton that closed down on you! I was there at Christmas time, and all was well. I dead-head hardwood back to Georgia when we visit for the holidays. Yellow pine all over the place here, no hardwood!
On the topic, I have inherited an interest in woodorking from uncles, and a high-school job sweeping up a custom cabinet shop. As a younger man, I invested in a basic shop, and kept modestly active. However, growing families and career takes time, and shop-time takes a second place to yourth soccer and basketball. Like a lot of the notes above, when the kids move on, the time and the financial ability reignted the interst. I am now one of the geezers at Woodcraft upgrading to higher end equipmement. But, my old Craftsman 12" saw is now in my son's primitive shop. ....two sons, both carrying on the interest....
phil
27, male, (9-5) desk job, southeast, family NOT into woodworking.
To be honest, I really don't know why I enjoy woodworking so much, but I do. I have always preferred building something with my time vs. cyclical activities that produce little more than temporary entertainment.
I have a theory about my peers though. We're too impatient and lazy to build something out of wood when we can drive down to Target and get it for $40. Then all we need is 30 minutes, instructions, a screwdriver and BAM! furniture!
It stems from growing up in a microwave/Nintendo society that has little appreciation for true craftsmanship, and I don't think it's going to get any better.
My close friends are truly impressed when I show them what I've built or the tool collection I've got, but they never seem interested in devoting time to learning how to do it themselves. And forbid it Lord that they should spend $50 on a tool instead of Halo 3 or Madden 2010!
I've owned a tablesaw for 2 years (it was my first "real" tool), and I've only completed 3 projects to date; all of which would be considered fair by any competent standards. But they think I'm as good as that "Yankee" guy on public TV. They wouldn't know fine woodworking if it pissed in their cheerios.
Bottom line... It's not "youngsters", it "raisins". We weren't raised to appreciate anything that you can't get instantly or with little personal effort.
One more thing. I am a member of the local guild and I shop at woodcraft regularly. I rarely get treated with any respect because of my age. Not that expect anyone to ask me for advice, but the condescending looks and lack of interest in imparting years of wisdom don't exactly encourage folks my age to get involved in woodworking. If some of the elder folks want to take their years of wisdom to the grave, that's fine, it's their's to keep. But please don't complain about how the craft is "dying" while you hoard your talents and skills from the next generation.
Marti ,
You are very observant in many ways , and I may understand and can relate to many of your observations and opinions .
One thing though , the fact that you are not being treated with respect should be brought up to the management to alert them of less then cordial employees .
Now ,,, if you are maybe looking to these same employees as possible advice givers or that they are somehow more then just a clerk and are all Masters waiting to mentor , Maybe now and then you get lucky and find an individual that has knowledge.
" knowledge without experience is simply information "
MT
dusty
It's not that the employees are rude. I think that their older customers are there more frequently and during less busy hours. Guys my age are probably there less often and may not buy as much when they do come in. So, maybe they're just trying to keep the bulk of their clientel happy. I can't really blame them for that, but it's not helping promote the craft to younger generations as it leaves younger customers feeling less important.
Honestly, I'm venting a little. I saw some posts about how the younger generation doesn't have an appreciation or interest in woodworking and saw it as a chance to bring some barriers I've faced into the spotlight.
I understand where Marti038 is coming from; I too have received many condescending looks from employees of woodworking stores, older woodworkers and some younger ones to
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I have long wondered where the camaraderie amongst woodworkers has gone.
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d'm,
30 yeas ago I moved to this small Southern Oregon town from the big city . I was used to being able to go to a supplier and buy whatever hardware screws and such I needed . One day I walked in and asked for some drywall screws , now this was in 1978 , the gut said " what kind of screws ? "
Oh he said you mean phillips head screws they are here in these little packs , like .89 cents for 5 screws ,, no I said they come in bulk by the pound or hundred or thousand , no we don't know what those are .
I walked into their milling room and talked to the oldtimer in there and he had drywall screws and they knew what they were . One other time I think the last time I went there I needed some wood glue .The owner asked what I was looking for and I said titebond glue , he went to the shelf and picked up some kind of glue and said here , this comes from the same pot at the factory .
I kindly asked the owner if the glue he had was an Aliphatic type , he said a what ?
They went out of business and at the auction I bought all the steel shaper knives and steel for a song .
Some people won't give you the time of day and some never take the time to find out who we are , too bad.
dusty
Marti,
I think your post is spot on. I'm 29 and have long held the same views on our generation. In my opinion, it comes down to an inability to delay gratification. Our TV/Nintendo upbringing has made us so lazy that we're no longer interested in something that requires work or can't be resolved in 22 minutes plus commercials. We're, simply, not willing to take the time to do things the right way. Look at the credit card crisis in the world today. It's a problem stemming from the same source. We're no longer capable of saving up the money to buy things before actually purchasing them. To do so would be to delay gratification. The ironic part is that the gratification is so much greater and more satisfying if we would only wait.
Worse yet, society has convinced us that the ultimate purpose in life is to be a wealthy, white collar worker. Society would have us believe that to work with your hands making an honest living should be below us. I know from experience having been to business school only to end up in a job requiring me to stare at a computer all day. My disatisfation with this view is what has fueled my interest in woodworking. Simply, it is just so much more satisfying to go home and work with my hands to create a beautiful piece of furniture that will last for generations than to arrange numbers in a spreadsheet. I suspect you feel the same thing.
With all that said, I do have hope for the future. There remains the possibility that our generation is beginning to wake up to all that crappy furniture they bought at Ikea and want for more. The popularity of HGTV and home remodelling shows featuring young people leads me to believe that our generation may yet appreciate working with their hands to create/improve/fix things. Further, while they may have missed out on learning first-hand from parents, school, or apprenticeships; the unbelievable wealth of information on the internet leaves open the possibility that they can catch up.
Finally, on your point about the lack of respect shown to you by older woodworkers, can you really be that surprised? How much respect has our generation shown theirs? Our generation has long turned up our noses at the things they value most and created this divide (in our defense, their generation did the same thing to their parents' generation). My experience has been that older woodworkers are eager to share their knowledge, if we only ask. The times when I've asked have resulted in loads of information and some really great experiences. I often think back to a job I had in college where I was working in a millshop with two older guys, Dale and Zeke. When they realized that I was serious about learning from them, they were a wealth of information and gave me a good foundation in woodworking. I wouldn't still be in the hobby if it weren't for them.
In any case, thanks for the post. I believe it's good to think about these things. Maybe we can use these types of discussions to figure out how to get our friends involved. Woodworking, while usually solitary, is a lot more fun with others around. Plus, if the hobby diminishes there will be fewer companies making tools and sawing lumber which means higher prices.
Aaron
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