I was wondering if the new wipe on Poly finishes like Minwax is suitable for a vanity fronts, or is it prone to water-spotting like the older oil finishes?
I am doing an addition to my nephew’s home, and plan to use it to veneer the vanity with pommele sapele. I was thinking that I had more veneer than I actually do, I pulled out a piece which I sanded, and oiled with this stuff, then left them with a sample and kept another. Now that I am ready to start laying it up, I will need to use both samples to have enough for the job.
I guess if we need to, we could brush on a final brush coat if this still is prone to leaving a water ghost stain. What say ye finishers? This is not my strong suit.
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The short answer is yes.
Wipe on poly, is just a varnish that includes some polyurethane resin and which has been thinned to wiping consistency. It is quite unlike an oil finish which is either just oil, mostly "Boiled" Linseed Oil BLO or Tung Oil (only if it says 100% or Pure Tung Oil) or it is an oil mixed with varnish. In either case you have to wipe off all excess because the cured finish is too soft to be allowed to build a film on the surface. These finishes are prone to water spotting, especially the oil only finishes.
But wiping varnishes (which includes some, but not all of the products labeled Tung Oil Finish) can build a film on the surface, just like brushed on varnish, only it takes about 3 coats of wiped on varnish to be as thick a dry film as 1 coat of brushed on varnish.
But it is not just newer polyurethane varnish that protects against water staining. The older traditional resins, aklyd and phenolic, also provide similar water protection. Polyurethane's chief advantage is abrasion resistence, not water resistence. Traditional resin varnishes such as Behlen Rockhard, or Pratt & Lambert 38 or McCloskey Heirloom can all be thinned to work like the pre-packaged wiping varnishes. There are also pre-thinned wiping varnishes with traditional resins. A noteworthy example is the Waterlox line-up, which includes Satin, Original/Sealer which gives a mellow gloss, and Gloss,
Thanks for the great answer Steve.
I usually brush 2 coats of varnish and then spray with aerosol can the final coat. On large projects, I wipe the final coat. With this method I quickly build the varnish film and the final coat is free of drips and defects.
I really don't understand why someone would use wipe on varnish for all the coats. I just takes too long to get the desired film thickness that allows for protection and/or final rub out.
The wipe on coats dry quickly and you can put 3 or 4 on in a day. Not difficult. And you don't get the runs, drips and errors on the initial coats either as you seem to be trying to keep from getting by wiping the last coat.Gretchen
Don,
I'm using varnish (Behlen Rockhard) for the first time, for a table top. I'm wiping (50/50 mix with Behlen Rockhard Reducer) all coats because I'm afraid of brush marks. I'm also not brushing because wipe-on negates the need to deal with the brush clean up (I assume I cannot use the synthetic throw-aways). Are you suggesting that I could use the varnish full strength, maybe even with a synth brush (?) and not be anal about a perfect coat, then use sanding to make sure I have a good flat finish surface, then only on the final coat use wipe on?
Thx
Dan
Don, I may not have made myself clear in the start of this thread. I guess I will go ahead and gloat here. I just got a huge windfall of fine quality exotic veneers. I have one of those big drawer units which has nine drawers, each of which will store 4' x 8', and about 5" deep. I have a good bit of some woods like waterfall buginga, and ebony that get their own drawer.However some drawers have a mix of similar color veneers like EI Laurel, Bolivian Rosewood, Bees-wing Andiroba, Palisander, and Sapele. Well I pulled out a sample of most of each species which I sanded and oiled, because it is quick and easy, and there is no glare from a top finish when viewing these samples. Wouldn't you know, that with all of these great woods to choose from, they chose the one that I have the least of. I will have to use these samples which I have already oiled for two drawer fronts. I am sure you know that a highly figured wood like pommele sapele will draw this thin finish all of the way through the veneer face, so there is no way to just sand it off, so I am stuck with oiling all of it to match what I have already used on these two samples to keep them from looking different from the rest.Having said all of that, I would also like to state, that brushing or spraying a full strength quick drying sealer coat on some of these woods which have a high luster, or chatoyance, is the best way to kill those properties. The way to make the most of these properties is to load up the cell walls with as much finish as they will soak up, before going for a surface film. The wetter the cells appear, the better this luster, or light reflecting quality will be, while putting a film coat on top of drier, less bulked up cells will only hide that property by obscuring it with glare from reflected light of the top surface. When I use a wood like this, all I want to see when it is finished is the wood. But I am sure there are others who place their priorities on a higher film surface.
That changes things a bit. There will be no problem applying varnish over the oiled veneer once the oil has had a chance to cure. The varnish will provide moisture protection that you need for the vanity. You do have the issue of how much film to build. A thicker varnish film will provide more water protection, but given that the surfaces are vertical you don't need "bullet proof" protection.
Definately stay away from single part polyurethane varnishes--they have a subtle haziness that could hurt the chatoyance properties. Traditional resin varnishes will be better. Behlen Rockhard is great for a relatively darker toned varnish and for lighter color and less ambering over time, Pratt & Lambert 38 or McCloskey Heirloom would be good choices whether you thin them to wipe on, or use them thinned only a little for brushing.
Brush on or wipe on isn't much of an issue. Wipe-on is much easier to get a good surface with fewer defects. However, brushed on varnish gives a film, even if only two coats, that is much easier to rub out than wipe on. The reason for this is that rubbing out should best be done entirely with in the final coat to avoid the possibility of witness lines when you cut through the top coat into lower coats. And only by rubbing out the finish can you move from a good finish to a superb finish. Superb is beyond what you usually see on vanities.
Also be aware that even though the coats are thicker brushed on, the total film thickness in the end doesn't have to be thicker since you will have level sanded between coats with 320 grit and will have sanded and polished the final surface.
If the beauty of the veneer were the primary goal you could use French polish that ends up looking like there is almost nothing there, even though there is a high gloss and full filled surface. But I wouldn't risk that in a bathroom vanity. Life is filled with trade-offs, alas.
Have you considered water white lacquer. I love the stuff except for the smell. I love the fact that each coat melts previous coats and blend in any between coat problems. If you spray lacquer, you can shoot your final coat with straight thinner. It allows the final film to level out and it looks great.
Lacquer rubs out nice too. Nitrocellulouse has to cure a long time before rubbing. Commercial lacquers can be rubbed without much wait time, but has to be sprayed.
Most of my home shop stuff is brushed lacquer and aersol can for final coat. I rub out with 4/0 steel wool and wool lube. For higher shine, plain ol' punice and rottenstone are great but auto supply houses sell good products too.
Hy Don, thanks for the tips, but I think I have scr**ed the pooch when it comes to changing products. Remember the reason for the question is because I have already oiled (as in wipe on poly) my samples which I now have to use to have enough veneer for the job. I just never like to change finishing material after it is started. Back through the years when I have had major screw-ups, it was usually from switching material. it is a given that all of the rest of the material will get the same treatment as my samples. After that, I will have my nephew or his wife put several coats of poly after they put the kids to bed for several evenings. They will want to do all of the finishing to save some money. After-all, they come from a family that does almost everything for themselves, rather than hiring it done. The foolproof , and easy repair of a wipe on finish will have its appeal for him and his young family of a 4 year old son, and 6 year old big sister. As for myself, when I am using wood like this, "less is more". I really don't want anything between me and Nature. The better I can see the wood, the better I like it. I have come to the opinion that, if you have a "high finish" with a scratch or ding, you have a defect. On the other-hand, if you have a oil finish which you touch-up with a wipe-on, then you have a character mark.I'll be using East Indian Laurel for the other bath. For the Master- bedroom fireplace surround, i will use a tight waterfall bubinga. I will be building a ten-foot long cabinet that will serve as a closet in the bedroom, which will be some intense fiddleback Koa, with a freeze of a dark rich wood like EI Rosewood, or something that picks up on the purple streaks in the koa. Oh it will be laid in a herringbone pattern on flip-up slide in doors. Of course there will nice crown, with the middle portion out as in break-front, which is higher, with a dentil, and I have my own crown patterns that I have been developing over the years that I might share with you fellows. That is if I start getting the proper respect that seems to be missing. Boy, talk about heart-break, I didn't see my name anywhere in the modern masters thread. Dang! I have given a lot to you guys and gals. If you don't hear from me for a while, it is because I just don't have time for it, I have got to get back to the real world.I have not homed in on what the entertainment cabinet will be made of yet, but I still have a bunch of great stuff on-hand. And the feature wall is all glass looking out onto a great view down into a neat creek with a vista of a mountainside with a glade behind that, and the other wall is over the bed, and will be reserved for hanging art.Cathedral ceiling with two trusses, all to my design. I'll try to remember to post some photos when it is all done. The biggest problem that I have right now, is that I have a great friend who is wanting to open a gallery that features my work in just a couple of months. You know, I just can't win. It is either feast or famine. About the time I get accustom to eating chicken, things change, then I am back to having feather soup. Ha, K
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