I often use hardwood plywood (cherry, oak, birch) in frame and panel construction, especially on sides and backs. It’s faster, less expensive and less likely to move. All I can ever find locally is 1/4″ and 1/2″. The 1/4″ is actually about 3/16″ and is just too thin, while the 1/2″ often seems like overkill. Wouldn’t 3/8th be a useful size to kitchen cabinet makers? Anybody else wish they could find 3/8″?
Ian
Replies
Ian, I go back a long way in the lumber business and it's always been that way with cabinet grade hardwood plywoods. The commonly available thicknesses are 3/4", 1/4" and 1/2"...and pretty much in that order. I think the logic has been that 3/4" is useful for structural components, 1/4" functions for backs, drawer bottoms and flat door panels, while the 1/2" is adequate for drawer sides. In fact even 1/2" can be hard to get in plywoods with the more expensive face veneers. Since drawer sides are considered "secondary" components, the more available plywoods in that thickness are maple and birch, as opposed to premium species like walnut and cherry, or special figures, like bookmatch, bird's eye, ribbon grain, etc.
I suspect the preference for 1/4", as opposed to 3/8", is a function not only of cost, but also weight. Heavier drawer bottoms and door panels aren't usually structurally necessary and the extra weight is harder on the hardware components (drawer glides, hinges, etc.) I'd agree though, now that so many plywoods are being imported in metric thicknesses...and the trade obviously has opted for the next size down from inch equivalents (i.e., 5MM as opposed to 1/4")...there has been a bit of a drop off in structural standards. Also, while I couldn't prove it, I think the trade cuts some corners on face veneer thickness that leaves even the domestic plywoods a little skimpy on actual vs stated thicknesses these days...and then they excuse the issue by suggesting that it's the result of surface sanding.
...But I don't view these trade practices as intentional deception. They're just trying to make the most of our dwindling timber resources and also keep the cost of these materials as low as possible.
Jon, Back in the 70's, I salvaged a bunch of 1/4" oak veneer plywood out of store fixtures built in the 30's. Used it for many projects and had no reservations about using it for drawer bottoms and panels. But I've run out and have to depend on the new stuff. Doesn't seem like a drop in thickness of 1/32nd or so would make much difference but I'll swear there's no comparison in the stiffness. I think the industry has reached the limit. So I figure the 3/8th today would be about equivilent to the old 1/4".
Other day I bought some 1x8 pine figuring it would be 7 1/4". Darn stuff was just a hair over 7"!
Thanks for replying.
Iancummins,
I use the 3/8" as flat panels on some doors recently and it made a big difference. You can buy it as small as 1/4 sheets from Boulter Plywood in Sommeville, MA.
Hello Jon , Another reason that 3/8" would not be real popular is most cabinet door type style and rail cutters are made to accommodate 1/4". Some are even designed to cut 5.2mm for the import panels.So 3/8" could cause some problems for cabinet uses. It is not much different than what was once a 2x4, why don't they call them 1 1/2"x3 1/2", ? . "The times they are a changing", for sure. Most of the 3/4" hardwood ply I get is closer to 11/16" . We all need to be prepared to use materials for the first time, as we are beginning to see right now . Species that we have never used and many that we have never heard of will become the common staples of our craft. For example Beech brought in from Germany along with matching veneers is here now, also a specie called Lyptus from Brazil is a viable alternative for Honduras Mahogany, and at $3.00 a foot will be used instead of Cherrywood. We all will need to learn about the properties of these alternative woods as we begin to use them. I guess we need to keep an open mind to trying new materials and the technology that comes along with them.
back to the drawing board dusty
The small shop is a very small consumer of lumber products. Availablity is based on what the large consumers need.
You can always have plywood custom faced.
Ian, 3/8" plywood is available in my area ,Binghamton,NY. I purchased a couple of sheets 4 or 5 years ago to use as drawer bottoms in two chests of drawers I was making. I just called the lumber yard (to verify if it's still available)) and they still have it in stock. AC with a mahogany skin.
Both my Hardwood suppliers in Texas are pushing 3/8 MDF, especially if 2 good sides are needed. The 1/4 inch hardwood plywood is not only well under 1/4 inch, as you note, but the back is pretty terrible. If you are building a cabinet that will be visible from both front and back, they recommend the 3/8 mdf since it is available with the furniture veneer on both sides.
For drawer bottoms, I found that there is an inexpensive 1/4 inch plywood that is used for underlayment, that is far smoother and more solid than the birch 1/4 inch plywood costing twice as much. Outside of the glued on labels bragging about how good the stuff is, I find it pretty attractive and stable. And only about $10 per sheet.
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Charlie Plesums Austin, Texas
http://www.plesums.com/wood
Yes, I've found 3/8" by mail order but I wonder why there isn't enough demand for it to make it more available. Are kitchen cabinet makers using the thin "1/4" for flat panels and if so, wouldn't they prefer to use a thin version of 3/8th? If 3/8th birch was available at your Lowes or HD... or If 3/8th cherry, walnut, qtr. sawn oak, etc was available at your closest hardwood dealer, would you buy it?
Common sense says the wood industry provides what's in demand but did any consumers say " hey, could you make that 1/4" ply a little thinner?" I don't think we had a choice in that decision. So I'm just looking for a way around it. No other takers on the 3/8th, hypothetically of course?
Ian
Where in the Austin area are you getting your hardwood? I know of Fine Lumber and Plywood, and usually get mine there, although they are not always inexpensive.
The only other place I know of is Paxton, and their prices are just nuts.
You have a secret?
Ian,
Boulter Plywood carries an extensive line of hardwood plywood (exotics too). Their 4x8 sheets come in (thickness): 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4", and 1" (thicker with special order). They will deliver and ship any product they have.
http://www.boulterplywood.com
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
IAN
I just checked my price sheet from Sawanee Lumber on Buford Hwy. in Sawanee on my home turf. About 40 miles from you in Conyers. They carry the 3/8" in Baltic Birch in 5 x 5. $20.40 for the 5x back in August when I got the last price sheet. The only other 3/8" they show is the bending ply.
I would suggest you give them a call @770-945-2102. 8 AM till 4:30 PM Mon.-Fri. and 8AM till 1PM on Sat. They have been around since the mid 60's and are a pleasure to deal with. If 3/8" cherry, walnut, etc. can be got I wouldn't be surprised if they wouldn't be happy to order it for you.
Regards from L'ville...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi Sarge, I was up at Suwanee Lumber a few weeks ago for some mahogany and cherry. You're right, nice folks and better prices than Peach State or Atlanta Hardwoods. I'd been there once years ago but didn't have as good an experience. The guy in the yard's a real character! He was putting out a bunch of nice curly soft maple and told me it was $2.50/bd. ft. so I couldn't pass that up.
Ian
IAN
Thanks for the tip on the curly maple. My wife wants me to design and build a crochet cabinet to hold her end-less supply of various yarns. I haven't decided on what type wood yet, so I will see of they still have enough curly maple to do door faces on the bottom cabinets.
Yeah the "yard man" is a character. I love how they tell you to just go down and get what you want. You can sort through wood all day picking and chosing and they just let you have at it. The guys down at the bottom of the hill that do the sawing and planing on the rough stuff are sort of the quiet types. They'll talk but you have to provide a spark and crank them up first. he.. he...
I haven't seen a saw as big as the one down there since all the saw-mills and moon-shine stills dis-appeared from Gwinnett Co. back in the mid 60's. Well, with the exception of the Atlanta International WW Show each 2 years.
Have a good week-end neighbor...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Guys' this thread has been alot of fun and very informative. Nice Rant!, if I may call it that. I gotta agree, more readily available thicknesses would sure help our design efforts. The 3/4 ain't 3/4 and the 1/4 ain't 1/4, and there getting thinner over time.
I built a project of 1/2" quartersaw red oak ply (both sides) several years ago. It was a design must for this project because it was pretty large and hangs on the wall. Having 1/2" and 3/8" and 1" around forever would be nice.
Enjoy, Roy
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