Why are there skill level tittles here?
integrity_woodworks
| Posted in General Discussion on
I would like to know …what is the difference between an Expert and an Professional? and if there are Expert icons,and new to wood working sections.
Then why is there no sections for the professional wood worker!or the intermediate wood worker.
This is likely the last time I will post here which I think is a shame ,because there are a lot of very cool and very informed people here that enjoy sharing there knowledge,and or experience.
Yet this system seems(to me) to promote those who wish to beat there chest and promote how smart and always correct they are.
Dan
Replies
Sir or Madam..
Why are there skill level tittles here?.. Who knows.. I think I am skilled and no Icon... I live with it! As in REAL life...
Why does it matter to you or me? Most, if not all... in here, will love ya' for what you are or trying to be...
If somebody pisses me off in here #hardly ever# I just go and listen to XM Radio an switch to '4 on 40' and listen to old sweet songs.. Swing and things.. I come back refreshed and forgot what I was pissed about!
EDIT: And just for fun I'll pick on you spelling of tittles..
Not hate in her I ever noticed.. OK, so some but.. Come back and tell or ask what ya know!
Edited 4/21/2009 9:04 pm by WillGeorge
Will ,some how I knew you would be first ,and Funny. Sorry for the poor spelling.
I do not care if someone pisses me off,in fact I expect it. It is when I give someone valid advise and it it is dismissed by someone ,no wait that is expected as well.but that persons opinions set in stone simply because of that persons title DOES!!!
My mother taught us that respect is earned by giving it ,not simply because you demand it,or because you have a icon beside your name.
Dan
My mother taught us that respect is earned by giving it ,not simply because you demand it,or because you have a icon beside your name.
My Mom would grab my brother and I by the Ear and we learned Respect!
Dan,
I'm really troubled that you feel that way.
Back when I got involved with this thing I wanted an egg icon. That way when I screwed up I'd already have it on my face.
Ye know what, I bet we all put our pants on pretty much the same way.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/21/2009 9:29 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
What titles are you talking about? I've never noticed them. Unless you're speaking about the little icons that identify some people as moderators or magazine staff. Is that what you mean? There's a little thumbs up next to my name because I'm a FWW editor. It's a way to make clear who we are, that is, make us not anonymous.
But I don't think I've ever seen an expert or professional tag next to anyone's name.
Matt
that is, make us not anonymous.
LOL. Can I get a Thunbs down for folks to see?
Matt ,
You are a FWW editor , and you said you have never seen an expert icon next to someone's name .
Well they are there , and (we) were told the system was changing a bit and they were losing some paid experts .
You not knowing that out front almost sounds as though the level of communication is lacking to keep employees informed , you should know more then us first . Just an observation and opinion .
regards dusty
I never said that I didn't know about the change. In fact I did. I also said that I had never seen titles, and I still haven't. But I did ask if the OP was speaking about the little icons that get placed next to some peoples usernames to identify them as somehow connected to the magazine/website, which is what the little E icon does. I have seen the icons, which is precisely why I asked if the OP was speaking about them.Also, so far as I know, there is only the gavel and the E icons. There is nothing that identify someone as a Professional.I was mererly trying to get the OP to clarify what he was talking about.So don't worry. I am informed.This is my personal signature.
the OP here I am very sorry that I did not respond before ,but for some reason the site was not letting me enter knots. what I meant by titles was the E icon. I am not sure but maybe it is simply the martyr in me? but having a (new to woodworking) section, and then Experts(which they are) with nothing in between reminded me of growing up in London Ontario Canada, where it was kind of like there are only two classes(I do not want to start the classic class war here!) the rich and the poor.
any how this was maybe ,(I honestly do not know?) what got me going, but I have found the result extremely interesting.
Dan
Actually, now I see that there is no thumbs up next to my user name, but when I comment in a thread, a little thumb shows up next to the thread title.
Matt
Matt,
Look way down at the bottom of the screen and the thumb relates to your interest level in the discussion. It assumes High rating when you make a post in a discussion.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob.. Sing this to your mate at Dinner..
The very thought of youAnd I forget to doThe little ordinary thingsThat everyone ought to doI'm living in a kind of daydreamI'm happy as a kingAnd foolish though it may seemTo me that's everythingThe mere idea of you,The longing here for youYou'll never knowHow slow the moments goTill I'm near to youI see your face in every flowerYour eyes in stars aboveIt's just the thought of youThe very thought of you, My loveRay Noble
Will,
Before or after leg wrasslin?
Tell you what, I'll have it inscribed on something or carve it one a piece of wood and read it to her, ok? My signin is so bad she'd prolly throw a frypan at my heed so I'd stop!
<G>
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Before or after leg wrasslin?
I would say both,, Before a bit softer.. After.. OH my lady!
Well, I guess that just goes to show how closely I pay attention to bottom of the screen. I always thought that was the web editor's way of identifying me as an editor. I'll tell her that tomorrow. She'll get a laugh out of it.MattThis is my personal signature.
I sure hope you stick around. I have read enough of your posts to know your pretty darn practical and skilled. If you ever catch me going off on a tangent, just tell me I am full of hooey and dont pay too much attention to those who rub you the wrong way. Are you a member of Fine Home Building? The focus there is more on home building, but that might fit a lot of your projects.
Brad
If you ever catch me going off on a tangent, I was usin' a CAD prorgam and had no idea waht I was doing!
hey brad Thanx, no I am not a member of fine home building, actually I 'am a ticketed joiner and finisher that works on (mostly)heritage homes,doing custom work as a side thing mostly even though some grow ,and grow.these I do because I love the challenge and its our heritage. Funny eh ,mostly its carpenters who also do furniture,like good old norm. I must admit I can not frame or dry wall worth a damn.
Dan
The purpose of the Expert icons is to identify those people who have been recognized by the Taunton staff as giving reliable advice (in other words, they're right significantly more often than they're wrong). It's intended as a comfort thing for beginners; if you're a beginner and you ask how to do something, you're likely to get a dozen different answers. Many of them may be correct, but it can be a bit overwhelming to sort them out if you're just starting, and not all of the answers will be suited to your experience level. If you get a response from an Expert, you can be confident that the way the Expert says to do it will work for you. Again, that doesn't mean it's the only way to do it, of course.
The number of people who have had the Expert tag bestowed upon them is very small--no more than about ten, I think. For the most part they are people who are recognized as experts not just here in these forums but in the greater woodworking world as well.
-Steve
saschafer, I was pretty sure I knew what the purpose was ,and who gave them the title and that the intent was good! But when said expert rejects all info that is not like ,or contrary to there own ,that is an abuse of title and helps no one but there ego.
when solid advise is given that has been obtained threw years of work, is dismissed ,and some times ridiculed! simply because someone has an icon beside there name disagrees .
In may opinion that is a huge flaw in the system and again helps no one.
Dan
I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what you are referring to. Was it the crib finish thread?
Did the expert you were talking about have a crown next to the name or a gavel?
Bear in mind the gavel does not designate an expert for Knots purposes, but rather is a regular Knotter like yourself who has been around long enough to know the ropes around here and has demonstrated a willingness to help others.
Those very few with the expert icon are truly recognized as experts in their fields.
I'm usually pretty quick to poke an inflated ballon with something sharp and I can't think of any of the folks with icons who engage in chest thumping or bragging.
I hope the perceived affront was an abberation and that you will stick around and participate.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
"... when said expert rejects all info that is not like ,or contrary to there own ,that is an abuse of title and helps no one but there ego."
Was it something I said? In all honesty I can't ever recall addressing a reply to you before, and I don't recall dismissing an individual's input to a thread out-of-hand.
Anyway, the circumstances regarding the conferring of what I describe as my fiery crown-- indicating only that my head is on fire, are that I was asked to be one of the Knots resident experts by the people at Taunton. I guess they thought I might be a useful recruit due to changes they were making elsewhere in the Taunton business.
I eventually agreed, and in return they send me a free copy of the magazine and I have free access to the 'Pay-Per-View' section of the website. The magazine generally takes five minutes to read as a quick flick through reveals if there is anything that interests me; and I think I've visited the 'Pay-Per-View' section, perhaps twice. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 4/22/2009 3:47 am by SgianDubh
"But when said expert rejects all info that is not like ,or contrary to there own ,that is an abuse of title and helps no one but there ego."
It sounds like you're referring to a particular instance. If so, we'd all be better off if you just came out and said exactly what happened and what you didn't like about it. Beating around the bush gets us nowhere.
Some of the information bandied about here is objectively factual: "Polyurethane glues have no gap-filling ability."
Some is purely personal preference: "When making a dovetail joint, always cut the tails first."
But there's a whole lot of stuff in between. And that's where the problem lies: Whether or not a particular technique works for you depends a lot on your past experience, how you got to where you are today. It's certainly possible that something that works great for someone else won't work very well for you at all, and vice versa. But it's neither the right way nor the wrong way.
It's very easy to have a bit of tunnel vision in this regard, and you see examples of it all the time, like someone who has been working at a craft for 30 years, and does superb work, and completely rejects the idea of doing something in a different way, because they tried it once 25 years ago and didn't get good results. Or, worse yet, they never tried it at all, because someone else told them to never do it that way.
True expertise, in my opinion, goes beyond just being really good at something. A true expert has explored well past their comfort zone, so that they understand not only what works for them, but what works for other people as well. They understand not only that a technique works, but also why it works. When an expert gives advice, they're drawing not only on their own wisdom, but on the wisdom of others.
But even experts aren't perfect, and they sometimes get it wrong. If you think that an expert has made a mistake, it's worthwhile engaging in a discussion with him/her, as you're both liable to learn something. But you'd better do your homework first.
-Steve
Steve, Great to have you back. Dan wood guy, Welcome to knots.
Tom.
Dan, I'm sorry I didn't see your post sooner. The Expert icons (an E with a crown) are for a few people who either
I haven't noticed any chest beating or other distressing behavior, so I'm not sure what's creating that impression. Admittedly, I've been somewhat absent the last week or so, but I'd be surprised if such gorilla-like antics were commonplace. The Expert designation simply point them out as people who've been around for awhile, are highly skilled, and try to make sure everyone's questions get answered in a timely and helpful manner. I refused the E icon, and asked for something more modest, hence my gavel. Simply because I'm not an expert, I just have opinions <grin>!
By the way, being not too far from Seattle, perhaps you'd like to join some Northwest woodworkers (and at least one other Vancouver citizen) at a woodworkers' Pig Roast in Seattle in a couple weeks or so. Click here to see the relevant thread.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/21/2009 10:34 pm by forestgirl
Edited 4/21/2009 10:36 pm by forestgirl
forestgirl. yummy I love pig roast,some very good friends of mine that I do some gun furniture work for have a big one for there black powder rifle club.Actually its a week long and there is a pilgrim site where they dress in vintage clothing/no modern convinces at all,and every night at dusk they fire a black powder cannon. sorry for rambling. I will check that out .Thank you very much!
Dan
Forestgirl,
See how you are, go getting me all excited, and theres nothing there, must be a bad link.
I seen something about Vancouver (home town, almost) and Seattle. Your making me homesick.'
Dan, whatever or whoever stuck a burr under your saddle most likely didn't mean it in a serious way or was just having a bad day. There is just way to much positive energy here to give it up and walk pissed. Give it a chance, you'll find it is one of the best online communities out there. Every site going to have a butthead stumble through evey once in a while, but don't let it ruin your day.
Are you from Vancouver? I grew up in Burnaby and White Rock.
Tomorrow will be better,
Taigert
Does Surrey count? ;-)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Ya, Surrey counts, I understand what used to be White Rock is now concidered South Surrey. I was actualy in Surrey, by King George and Johnson Rd. we lived in the third house west of Hwy 99. The make up of Surrey is definitly now the way it was when I lived there. Last time I went home I didn't even speak the same language as the people that live there now. Or for that matter the rest of the lower mainland.
I do miss the place where I grew up. I live in SE Indiana now, in A small town about 45 mins NW of Cincinnati, Ohio. We will be going home to visit in the next couple of months.
One thing is BC has a great apprenticship program for all trades. I love the wood shops down at BCIT. I did my apprenticeship in sheet metal there, but back then the trades were taught a what was called Pacific Vocational. I would love to go through the testing to get my Inter-Provincial Red Seal as a Joiner. I have a lot of respect for anyone who has passed there standards.
Nothing against anyone in the US but, that is one thing this country truely lacks is some sort of standard training program for people in any of the trades. Anyone can hang their shingle up and call themself whatever they want with no formal training.
Taigert
I lived in Richmond when Bill Vander Zalm was Mayor of Surrey. It was common to hear the phrase "Surrey with the lunatic fringe on top." I've lived in Eastern Canada for the past 20 years and I can't imagine ever living in the Lower Mainland again! Too much traffic, poor transit outside the core area, unbelievable housing prices and a provincial political process that has always confounded me. And don't get me started on the subject of BC Ferries! Now the Okanagan area. . . that's a different story!Besides, the quality of the fishing in Ontario and the availability of inexpensive hardwood lumber in Eastern Ontario and Quebec have spoiled me!Regards,Ron
Well, things have not changed much since you were here. But, having lived in Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto for many years, I would never want to leave the coast (been here 29 years now). Especially from November to April :-)Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
SirHear, Hear.!
Ooops, I forgot to mention: if you don't get a thread after clicking, you need to write to sysop and ask to have the Cafe added to your list of folders. [email protected] should work. Or go to this post and click on the link for Gina's address. If you're interested in coming to the party (May 9th), click on my name and email me, I'll send you info.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Taigert, no I grew up in south western Ontario but have been her since April 26, 1992.which reminds that my daughter was born one day sort of a year from that date ,on april 25 1993.sorry if that is not appropriate but I just looked at the time and realized what day it is now,well I best go to bed got a date tomorrow (sweet 16)
you are 100% correct tomorrow was better.I always say ever forward and always forward, when someone ask me how its going .funny how we don't take our own advice at times. thank you.
Dan
Woodguydan:
I choose not to let little stuff like your addressing annoy me. If it makes some people happy, good for them. I have found in life that the less attention you draw to yourself the freer you are to do pretty much as you please. I may be out of line to discuss this though because every time I spell check a message before posting it, Fine Woodworking wants to change my name from gdblake to godlike (Mel will back me up on this). It's my own sense of humility that keeps me from allowing the software to address my postings in this manner. My Wife will be the first one to tell you that the last thing I need to get is a complex.
gdblake
Edited 4/22/2009 11:09 am ET by gdblake
?
<<This is likely the last time I will post here >>
OK
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
that must have taken alot of thought.
Edited 4/25/2009 2:57 am ET by woodguydan
Did not need to.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I forgot to mention that you sometimes learn more from those who disagree with you than those that are in the amen corner.
If it does not violate the laws of physics, keep an open mind.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
Don,
"If it does not violate the laws of physics, keep an open mind".
The best single sentence of advice I ever read! Are you related to R. Feynman? :-)
Lataxe, who tries not to let his brain fall out (mindful of metaphysical gravity too).
Hi Dan
The hammer simply represents Staff - not expert and not professional.
I very much doubt that I am in your league when it comes to skill and experience. The FWW/Knots team asked a few of us, four I believe, to take up a role of advisor within an allocated section of the forum. Mine is the Handtools Forum. The main responsibility is to "Try to respond to new questions that aren’t getting responses".
I am at a loss to know what to suggest with regard the situation you feel so strongly about since you have not been specific. Would you care to elaborate? Knots is intended to be a place where friends meets and chat, sometimes disagree, but never disrespect.
Regards from Perth
Derek
A good and clear reply..
"Try to respond to new questions that aren’t getting responses".
I did that all my life with my 'Mate'.. She would just smile at me.
Yet this system seems(to me) to promote those who wish to beat there chest and promote how smart and always correct they are.
It’s not as bad as it use to be but there are a few that give that impression, I don’t think they do it on purpose though, they are just like the rest of us who have nothing better to do so we hang out here at Knots. I’m still confused why FWW enlisted volunteers after eliminating Ask the Expert service, there were always members willing to help each other in the past and as in your original post it seems to have caused a divide by inducing the use of special icons with the user name of these volunteers. I look to the Knots forum as a source of entertainment then a means to an end. But I must say the forum seems to have taken on a friendlier tone then in the past.
I'm sure I catch it from a few here about my post, but I won't be the first time.
Dan ,
I can relate to wanting a pro section , but the truth of the matter is this forum is really largely made up of non pros .
However there are a number of pros that are tops in their fields whether it be reproduction works or restorations , case works or teaching .
There is a lot of wisdom right here close , imho it would be a shame to not take advantage of it when we can or lend a hand to another , share .
The woodweb forums have special sections for different crafts also , you will appreciate the questions from other so called pros .
you can be an expert at something without being a pro
and you can be a pro without being an expert .
dusty , who's done a share of old woodwork restorations
Yet this system seems(to me) to promote those who wish to beat there chest and promote how smart and always correct they are.
OK so pound on me if you want to...
I will leave saying that any so called 'tags' are from folks in here that have no or little agenda. OK so we all sell ourselves but NOT a bad thing.
I think you sold yourself and I thought... What a missed opportunity to meet wonderful folks!
WillG,
The use of pseudonyms within Internet forums has always seemed to me to have more advantages than disadvantages. Not least is the advantage that posts by a pseudonym can be judged on their content rather than by the worldly fame or celebrity of those who made the post.
Posts from pseudonyms eventually gain that pseudonym a reputation or even local fame (or infamy). But this status is based on the content of the posts, not on whether the poster is famous because of a sporting, business, media or other journalistic success. Unfortunately there is often an assumption that success in one sphere automaticaly makes a person good, knowledgeable or "right" about a whole host of unrelated matters. Pop-stars pontificating on politics.
However, that being said, I haven't noticed too many posters here trading on their reputations in the wider world to brow-beat the rest of us. That Richard might be a touch blase and done-it-all at times but he knows his WW stuff; Larry can be dismissive and high-handed on ocassion because there is always at least one kow-towing fan of his planes to go "oooh yes" to keep his ego inflated. But generally the experts really do show (by the content of their posts) that they know what they're talking about.
When these speshul-ones do make an error or get too dismissive, there is always Don or Sean to ask the pointed and telling question that reveals their smarty-pant or pompo-stance. :-)
Still, one does wonder how some of their posts would fare if they were just any-old poster using a pseudonym and we, the readers, remained ignorant of their status elsewhere.
Lataxe
as in; "how best to stay out of my own way?"
eef
The use of pseudonyms on online forums is for the protection of the members’ privacy from those of lower ethical standards. They also avail the member a pseudo character opportunity where they can create their alter ego allowing them to act in a different manner then they would in a real life face to face conversation. Sometimes this is a good thing for it can remove the boundaries the member has build in real life and allows them to speak and act in a manner that lets them be who they really are or who they really want to be. We all have heard about the sweet little old lady who wouldn’t hurt a fly turn into a aggressive driver as soon as she gets behind the wheel of her car, so to, will some experience a similar character shift as they log on to the forum. Were in real life if they felt insulted or embarrassed they would most likely take it in stride and walk away to avoid a conflict instead stand up and respond online knowing that they are protected by the benefit of their use of this pseudo character. Granted there are those that do not hide behind these pseudonyms, they are who they are in real life and online, some nice and others not so nice. There are certain courtesies that must be followed both in real life and online, unfortunately it is sometimes difficult to determine what is being said by the other for one can not see the others eyes or read their body language, so we lose those extra senses online, because of this and depending on the members state of mind one can read things into another’s response that wasn’t originally intended. It appears the placement of icons associated with some user names have given the impression of expertness that is back by the owner of the forum has caused a riff for some in which they have stopped offering their opinions because the fear of having their opinion brushed off ignored or belittled. I would have thought that it best to have allowed the assigned volunteers to have access to the Ask the Expert section of this web site to stand in place of the vacancies of those let go and let the forum flow as it has in the past.
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Sir L
I agree that the we are all judged on the quality of the content of our posts. I am not sure that I can agree that the use of pseudonyms will enhance the purity of such posts, however.
I cannot speak for others here, but I'd rather converse with a Real Person than some nom de guerre. Issues of trust are involved.
Of course some posters actually may as well not use a pseudonym since they disclose much of their pesonal life :) . Then there are those that build walls, change identities frequently, and seek to disguise themselves. One wonders if they are Real or merely a fiction.
At the end of the day we are all judged by the consistency and the quality of the content of our posts. While there are some who tend to elevate A Big Name to the mantle, I have not noticed that that this protects them from the proles when they make Silly Statements.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
There are certainly cons to use of pseudonyms along with the pros. In some popular-subject forums (eg DP Review camera forum) the quality of most postings is dire - the rude, arrogant and plain stupid are there in droves. They let themselves go partly because of the anonymity; but some who do give their real names are just as rude or stupid.
Happily Knots is generally very well -behaved and also very informative (must be some association there). Spite and trollery pop up now and then but it's rare. Some of the worst offenders, as you know all too well from personal experience, give their real names or are otherwise far from anonymous.
Humans do have an unfortunate habit of judging the value of what is said by who says it and all their (usually irrelevant) attributes in other spheres. The value of a post and its information-content gets all mixed up with one's attitude to a famous (or infamous) character - their behaviour or stances within their wider public life.
Even when the fame comes via status as a woodworking journalist, well-known maker or other related position, this colours our judgement of what they might post. It's surprising how often we will acccept poor or even silly information from a person just because they got an article or two published in a WW magazine. Also the converse - I often find a "need" to question such authorities much more vigorously than I might Joe Bloggs when he makes a posting, which is hardly fair.
Just imagine what Napie might post in response to anything that Jimmy Carter might opine, using his real name. :-)
Anonymity protects us, the post-readers, from these effects. If Richard Jones was unknown to us except as the dark dagger, I for one might tease him less, as I woudn't know he was a teacher of Scots extrction in Leeds (fair game on three counts). Not that he ever takes much of my bait, the wily old trout.
And just think - no one will go to remonstrate with the hooman behind Bossy Crank or the Taunting Coot as we do not know who he is. He may well be a small, spindly fellow unable to cope with a beefy and irrate woodworker banging on his shed door with a large blunt tool, displeased with his facile jibes and sneers.
Lataxe, who could be anyone from Galgate.
Lataxe,
Fascinating theory, regarding fame, anonymity, and credibility. Me, I'm a legend in my own mind, so I believe anything I say. I'll vouch for me.
"Lataxe, who could be anyone from Galgate."
Ohh, so we are to believe you really actually, do reside in Galgate? Interesting....
Ray, looking about for a blunt object with which one might rap on a door
Sorry to you ALL. I guess it was just a brain fart on my behalf!!! WOW you all shocked the heck out of me!!! well except one. any ways ...THANK YOU !!!!!!!
Dan.
Edited 4/25/2009 2:56 am ET by woodguydan
For what it is worth I never doubted that any of the Experts where experts,and I have envied hobbyist for some time because they get the benefit of time(in most cases) meaning no dead lines/clients .ec (most times) and I am willing to learn from ANYONE!
Dan the always learning woody.
Edited 4/25/2009 2:55 am ET by woodguydan
Edited 4/25/2009 2:55 am ET by woodguydan
At the end of the day we are all judged by the consistency and the quality of the content of our posts. While there are some who tend to elevate A Big Name to the mantle, I have not noticed that that this protects them from the proles when they make Silly Statements.<!----><!----><!---->
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We each should be considerate, holding respect for the other, given in politeness, anything else is judgmental, especially when one is in the position to help others, those should be above reproach.
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Edited 4/26/2009 12:35 pm ET by dustymctevish
Edited 4/26/2009 3:21 pm ET by dustymctevish
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