Which saw blade do you all prefer for your table saws? I have looked at the Forrest 1 and 2 and Freud. Thanks for any advice.
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Replies
Dalewood
I use the Freud 24 flat tooth for ripping. The 60 tooth crosscut for that and have a Freud 80 tooth for delicate work. Also have Freud 60 tooth 5* degree negative hook on my SCMS. All are excellent at a reasonable price.
There are many good blades. I prefer switching blades to match the proper teeth for the purpose it was intended. After years of using a combo, I decided to go this route about 3 or 4 yrs. ago. Wish I had done it sooner. My opinion. Others will tell you the combo does it all.
Good luck with your purchase...
sarge..jt
I have used both the Forrest WW11 blade and the Gold Metal Tenryu for the last 5 years. The Tenryu is a thin kerf blade that performs very well, uses less power to cut than the thicker Forrest and costs about 60 bucks. The blade lasts about a year with full time use. I highly recommend it. They run ads in FWW or I can supply you with a dealer phone # if anyone is interested.http://www.northernsunwoodworks.com
Which Freud are you considering (the model number)?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Not sure on the model as I have looked at many different blades. I will try and pay more attention next time I look.
I use a combo blade , a Forrest WWII. I am happy with the quality of the cut and ,when needed, I can send the Blade to Forrest for a like-new sharpening. If I change to a Freud ripping, cross cutting etc. does Freud offer a sharpening service? Unfortunately here in the mountain there is no shop that I know who does a first rate job.
Thank you in advance.
John Cabot
I tried the Forrest route, and it is a good combo blade and depending on what I am doing it has it's palce in the rotation on the saw. I, like Sarge, have gone to mostly changing blades and not combos. You just can't beat ripping with a dedicated rip blade and crosscutting with a high tooth crosscut. It may cost you a few more bucks than a single blade, but the Freud blades I use are great and last well using them on the job they are intended.
Brian
I’m a Freud guy also, although I haven’t tried the Forrest yet. I have one blade for plywood, one for hardwood cross cutting and a few for general ripping. I just bought the “glue rip” blade and it was great. As I’m on site I don’t have a jointer with me, it allows me to rip stock and glue it up (window sills for example) and get a good tight seem. If you’re using the blades a lot, get two of your favorite so you can have one being sharpened while you use the other. Good luck Also buy a can of pitch/blade cleaner, it will save you sharpening.
Steve
If you have a std table (1.5 hp or less) saw try a teflon coated thin freud 60 tooth. I'm remembering LUM 81 or something like that. I've had mine for so long I forgot. The thinner the blade the less wood removed and the faster you cut. The only time it matters is when you have wet wood that binds. (don't cut that) Or the only other time the thin blade is a problem is when you are nibbling as if you were Dadoing. Then it is troublesome due to the repetition in the number of cuts to remove stock. Otherwise it cuts like a dream rip or cross.
There are definitely two schools of thought on the thin kerf blades. I have an old Jet contractor's saw, albeit with a new motor. I do not use thin kerf blades, because it seems so many people feel they flex too much, unless stiffeners or stablizers are used. Since at this point I'm not real concerned about the waste from a larger kerf, I've stuck with standard blades.
So far, cutting mostly red oak, alder and fir, I've had no power problems. I have a twist-link belt on the saw, which has decreased vibration and noise considerable, and I'd not be surprised if it results in a bit more power.
It seems Dalewood is looking for possible options to the Forrest WWer blades. Freud has a blade that is every bit as god as the Forrest, for less money. However, I've can't remember the model number and am at work, so no catalog available. Will post it tonight.
A 24-tooth FTG blade for ripping would certainly be the way to go for anything more than lightweight ripping. Wish to heck the local guys carried one!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Flex? Yes I suppose that could be an issue but speed of the cut seems to be the desire for me. Displaced wood equals work or horsepower in my concept. Most everything I cut is 1 to 2 inch thick (plus or minus a bit). At that thickness rip or cross cut makes little difference in the quality of the cut.
With a rip on thicker wood 3 to 6 inch I've had some real balking. I'm not talking about ripping a table leg, I'm describing ripping a 4x4 fir 10 footer at a 60 degree angle. The friction from wood, sap, and just getting the sawdust out of the way can warp a blade. There thickness of the blade aggressive tooth angle and gullet design have a place.
My biggest issue is the speed it cuts. If there is a 3 hp or even 2 hp motor it might be ok to spin that kind of metal, but on the parsimonious models there isn't that much power to spare.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Given the type of cutting tasks you're describing, I can well see why you prefer a thin kerf! especially with the bevel cuts adding even more stock thickness. Might very well be that when I get to the point of ripping up those beautiful, thick 10-foot-long walnut pieces I have hanging on the lumber rack, I'll be wanting a TK blade!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You mentioned teflon coated blades: why should the coating on the saw body matter since it only the teeth that are in contact with the wood. I have several teflon coated Frued blades and I've always wondered why they do it? Sales gimmick or what?
Doug
This one has been hashed over a bit in the past also. In an ideal world only the teeth would come in contact, but which one of us has a saw so precisely set up, with 0.0000000 run-out on the blade or arbor, and perfect feeding technique that the blade runs so true and the stock feeds so perfectly (and with no movement in the wood immediately after the cut, so add in perfectly dried wood) that only the teeth ever, ever, ever come in contact with the wood.
Not me, for sure.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well done, Miss Jamie...
Now where's the pics for the router table. You're here answering questions instead, huh. Guilty, or not guilty? ha..ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Aw, c'mon now Sarge!! A gal's gotta eat lunch, even a forestgal! Just finished taking and downloading the pics. Gotta edit them and put in a nice page for y'all like I did the lumber rack project. Then will have a new thread in "Tools." Late tonight, probably. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
O.K., O.K. You get an extension.Look for it tonite or tomorrow. ha..ha..
Evening...
sarge..jt
It is the friction simply put.
Teflon is sprayed actually onto a "toothed" surface. Tooth on the metal is a machined or shot peened surface. The TFE is in kind of a powder form and it hooks up with the surface of the saw and it stays put. They actually "sand" blast aluminum pans before the teflon is applied.
By having the slippery plastic coat on the blade the wood cannot really make a frictional grab at the sides of the blade. If you have the older style machined steel or stamped blades they will over time accumulate the pitch from the wood on the sides of the blade. The more accumulated pitch the hotter the cut...more pitch etc.
Now kerf is the tooth width so why the blade in the friction equation? Sawdust, incorrect feeding of the board, or skimming an edge straight makes quite a bit of contact with the blade blank. Lastly, teflon is thermoset plastic not thermoform so it doesn't melt under high temp (frictional) loads.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Thanks for the blade info. I always assumed that if you keep things clean, sharp and aligned, the wood never comes in contact the blade body.
Doug
This can of worms gets opened up every so often, Forrest Girl will go to her grave defending her Freud blades and a few other woodworkers will chime in to amen her opinion. Freud does make a very nice blade, much better than some others I've had over the years and they give you a great variety to chose from. I have several, an 8" chop saw, a Delta Sawbuck 8", a Delta 12" chop saw, all have Freud blades and several 10" blades in a drawer. I bought a Forrest WW2 for my Unisaw a couple of years ago and it is in my judgement superior to anything I have ever used. I have from time to time used my Freud thin kerf for special jobs but the rest of the time the Forrest blade stays on my saw. It is a little more expensive however.
Try them both, I think Forrest advertises a return policy and Freud is a very reputable company would probably do likewise(are you lurking out there Charles). I don't think you can go wrong with either one, blades keep getting better and better.
Gods Peace
les
My goodness! OK, yeah, I like the Freuds <g>. The main reason I bring them up is to provide an alternative to the, IMO, over-priced Forrest WW, and to point out, as you mention, the wide variety of blades they make for specific purposes. (I've got to do something to justify all the time it took to study and figure out which model did what, y'know -- pass the nuggets along, as it were.)
The combo blade I bought cost me $46.74 at the fall woodworking show. It's available on-line for $49.00, the WWII for $95, and I believe you get a $15 sharpening coupon. The results when using the Freud would be pretty darned hard to improve on, so just can't see spending 50% more. Take that money and buy a nice blade for veneers, or a good rip blade and still have some left over.
Was just looking at the Forrest ad, and they really, realllllly want the reader to believe that the WWII will do everything needed in a shop, and no other blade is needed. Bull bleep. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Blades are like anything else, depends on the person using it, and probably more so one the quality of the saw.
I run a comerical shop, two table saws, a Powermatic T66 and a General 350. Over the years have used dozens of brands of blades. Currently have 5 Forrest WW11 blades and two Tenryu Gold Metal blades. In my opinion the Tenryu cuts as good as the Forrest at half the cost. A friend of mine uses Delta and Freuds they work for him and he builds some pretty nice stuff. I really don't think there is any one blade that will work well for everybody. http://www.northernsunwoodworks.com
To All:
Well, I don't know if I can say this around here, but I don't use Freud or Forrest. I run 2 saws, a powermatic 66 and a delta unisaw, and have a full arsenal of blades, some probably as old as my wife ( still sharp too) FS tools out of Canada has by far been my favorite blade maker. Recently found Leitz at a trade show couple years back & have been very happy with their blades. If memory serves me correctly, Leitz blades were about two thirds to half the cost of the FS tools blades. Every blade and bit I've gotten from them has been excellent . Also they have a sharpening service, just ship your blades to them. I have yet to try this out yet, but I know I won't send my blades to Emerald Sharpening in Seattle anymore.
Yeah there are some cheaper blades out there & it depends on your needs, but I believe the inititial investment is worth not having to replace them in a year or two. Also, Simple Green straight out of the bottle is a nontoxic, pleasant smelling blade cleaner. Just let them soak for 10 minutes & brush them of with a stiff bristled nylon brush. The hardest part is finding an old round tupperware that you can get the blades in & out of.
No matter what blades you use, just keep your fingers out of them :)
Jordan Coe
Simple Green: I picked up a can of the BBQ-cleaner version yesterday, and it worked great! Probably basically the same stuff as the regular version, but in a foam, and it cleaned the blade with just a couple minutes of soaking and a soft toothbrush. Sure beats dressing up for the lye treatment, or pinching the nose for the kerosene treatment.
I've heard quite a bit over the last year about the Leitz, Tenryu and FS blades. They sound like excellent blades.
Bad luck with Emerald, eh? There's another sharpener over there somewhere who was recommended to me. Gotta remember who that was....forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another alternate pitch remover is Xylol (Xylene). I keep a bath of it in an old 12" round cookie tin with a metal cover. Drop the blade in, come back the next day, pitch is almost gone (you have to wipe the blade a tad). Don't try this with a plastic container as it seems to evaporate through the plastic. Doesn't melt it or anything like that, just passes through it over time.
Jon
Sounds like it works well Jon, but does it really take something as nasty as Xylene? Sounds sort of like the elephant gun to shoot a fly routine. My days of casually using stuff like Xylene, MEK, Toluene et al. just because it's handy, even if it's overkill, are long gone. Body isn't as forgiving about the fumes as it used to be.
Would be interested in hearing from Charles about whether there are any effects of strong solvents on the carbide/steel bond. Turned out that oven cleaner (lye) wasn't all that good for the blades.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Lye I believe is an alkaline. Solvents are just that, solvents. Completely different. Not that they should not be treated with respect, caution and safety. Compared to some of the stuff I have to use at work (isocyanates and the like) xylene is pretty benign stuff. Commonly used solvents typically don't do much to alloys (except for certain alcohols). As a side note, products that are typically sold as "pitch removers" often have xylene(xylol) as a primary ingredient.
Jon
Edited 4/5/2003 1:08:09 PM ET by WorkshopJon
Well I can't tell you which one lasts the longest, but I can tell you that the Forrest is the only blade(along with a high quality stabilizer)that will deliver a true jointed edge, ie; NO saw marks. I don't mean good enough for a glue joint, I mean good enough to show as a finished edge right off the saw, with no more than the usual light sanding after assembly to prepare for the finishing room. It probably is overpriced, but I justify it by my time savings. To me, my time is the more valuable to my business' bottom line than any expendable tool or supply. It's the same reason I throw away "perfectly good" sandpaper when it stops cutting at peak efficiency. Best of luck
Hi "CL,"
You say:
<<Well I can't tell you which one lasts the longest, but I can tell you that the Forrest is the only blade(along with a high quality stabilizer)that will deliver a true jointed edge, ie; NO saw marks. I don't mean good enough for a glue joint, I mean good enough to show as a finished edge right off the saw ...>>
As someone wisely pointed out in another thread- statements regarding the relative quality of items really require the person making the statement to have used the many (competeing) items ... with that said; have you used/tried the various premium TS blades out there on your saw (or a saw of similar quality, etc.)? The reason that I ask is that I too am under the impression that there is no better blade than the Forrest. Only difference is that I actually haven't tried most of the other blades out there. I reached my conclusion via some pretty shabby reasoning; I can't imagine a better blade (I too have found that the resultant Forrest-cut edge to be basically un-improvable) and therefore I imagine that there probably isn't anything is as good. I will be the first to admit that reasoning doesn't get any worse than this! <g> So ...
What say? Have you tried a good representative sampling of premium TS blades (feel free to innumerate)? I have to send out my WW2 for sharpening (yes, I will be sending it "back home" for this, lol), and am therefore in the market for another saw blade to use in the interim (sp?). I'm thinking should I buy another Forre$t?, or two somewhat cheaper blades; a rip and a cross-cut. I'm leaning towards the Forrest because of the time lost changing blades ...
Thanks.
I have tried, in no particular order, systematic, makita, delta, freud, tenryu, and oldham. Some were dedicated rips, some were dedicated crosscut, none of them did either as well as the WWII. But that's just my opinion, though, and I'm sure that some will disagree. I think my truck is the best one made too, but that doesn't make it so.
Hi CL and others,
<<I have tried, in no particular order, systematic, makita, delta, freud, tenryu, and oldham. >>
Is there anyone else that has tried some/all of these others and found that the WW2 was either merely equal or less good (cost issues aside for the time being :-)), both as rip and/or xcut? I can understand that a combination blade may not rip as quickly as a dedicated rip, but the time spent changing blades, at least in my case, puts the combination blade clearly in the lead. So what I am wondering is IN TERMS OF CUT QUALITY, are these other blades equal/better than the WW2 (again not factoring in $ or speed of cut)?
<<Some were dedicated rips, some were dedicated crosscut, none of them did either as well as the WWII. But that's just my opinion, though, and I'm sure that some will disagree. I think my truck is the best one made too, but that doesn't make it so.>>
Pardon the philosopher in me coming out <g> ... Just because it is opinion, it doesn't follow that it is MERELY opinion and therefore hopelessly non-factual: It is my opinion that the earth is round. That doesn't make it so, nor does it mean that it isn't. :-) Sometimes opinions can be correct (trouble-maker }8^D). Quality of cut, or lack of same, is an empirical matter ... it can be determined by observation.
Perhaps it is that this or that sawblade won't perform equally well in all saws ... this might not surprise me. I guess that I am still curious (even though I didn't start this thread)- has anyone tried some/many/most/all of the premium saw blades, incl. the WW2, and found that the WW2 was no better than the others? (again, not factoring in cost and/or speed of cut). To be fair (and minimally scientific lol); lets at least compare same size blade width, and performance in the same saw on the same wood in the same type of cut (e.g., xcut or rip) ... and I guess that they should also be equally sharp and equally clean. (how is THAT for not asking for much! <g>)
Let the games begin!
-Anonymous <grin>
Thanks for providing the info on other blades you have tried.
To All: One thing I'm noticing in this thread is that there is little info on the dimension of the lumber generally being milled. We're all (or most of us) using the terms crosscut and rip as if it doesn't matter whether it's 1/4" stock or 8/4, which of course is not at all the case.
I ripped a short piece of 6/4 oak the other day using my Freud combination blade. It did a fine job, but of course the feed rate had to be pretty conservative. This has something to do with my 1.5HP saw motor, to be sure, but also the tooth configuration on a combo blade is not optimal for ripping such thick stock.
So, if one is ripping, say, 100 linear feet of 6/4 or 8/4 stock using a combo blade (ATB or ATBR), how much extra time does it take over using a blade specifically designed for ripping? How much more often does the blade have to be sharpened because it's being used as a "jack of all trades" blades in heavy stock? At what point, production-wise, does it make more economic sense to use dedicated blades that individually cost less and do a more effecient job at their individual tasks?
Last question: Where the heck do I get info on Leitz blades? Can't find them on the internet (one promising link was dead).
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 4/7/2003 12:54:48 PM ET by forestgirl
Forestgirl,
I don't know about online, but here are some 1-800 #s for Leitz off my last invoice. Don't know where you are, so here's a few:
CA 1-800-548-1535 Ind 1-888-638-8099 Mich 1-800-253-6070.
They also are located in MN, SC, NC, PA,TN, TX, VA, WA, WI, but no 1800#s
Jordan
Thanks Jordan. I'll call and ask for a catalog if they have one. They don't seem to have a web site, unless it's buried on page 10 of my Google.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear First Lady of the Forest : Well Jamie I see your at it again , stoking the old which blade is better fire.. <G> .. have to agree with you on the Freud blades but I have also been using OldHam blades and would like to say I find them to be a Quality blade also .. I use them in my portable circular saws ,miter box,Radial arm saw, & table saw and they hold up really well both the Carbide & regular steel blades.
Take Care & Dont Bust these Guys too much.. LOL...
ToolDoc
PS : Do you have to keep rubbing in about that Walnut you have stashed on your lumber rack..lol
Edited 4/5/2003 10:29:33 AM ET by TOOLDOC
> ....There's another sharpener over there [Seattle side]....
I don't have enough experience with saw sharpening services to have any comparisons to base a judgement on but Eastside Saw (in Bellevue) is highly recommended by many who use them. Their costomer service is A-1.They're on Bel-Red Road just east of the main part of Bellevue.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Fine Woodworking did a saw blade review within the last couple of issues ... you may want to give it a read. If memory serves, however, the Forrest WW2 either tied for first, or just straight-up won in both the rip and crosscut category.
I am relatively new to this forum, but it is the first time that I have ever heard anyone argue that the Forrest WW2 was not the greatest saw blade going. I have one of the regular kerf WW2s mounted on my Jet Cab saw (with .0006" runout at the arbor ... yes, that is 6 ten thousandths of an inch!!!), and I simply cannot imagine being more pleased with a saw blade. When my technique is on, even with a raking light I can't see ANY saw marks ... none.
I finally have to send off my WW2 to get it sharpened and as a result of some posts on Freud's LU84M and LM72R010 (I think those are the model numbers) I will probably end up purchasing one of the Freud blades. Then I will be able to compare the blades on the same saw (obviously vital in all blade comparisons). I will be amazed if they compare to the WW2.
-Peter T.
Pete,
I don't argue that the WW II may be the best "combo" blade. I use it when I am doing smaller projects so I don't have to change blades. I saw that comparison that you reference, it's a comparison of "combo" blades. I sure wouldn't say that a combo does serious ripping as well as a dedicated rip blade. If I am about to rip a couple of hundred bf of hard maple or cherry for face frames or stiles and rails I'm reaching for my 24 tooth rip blade. It allows a faster feed rate with out bogging down or burning and the blade lasts longer, between sharpening. I have actually been trying to justify buying a Forrest rip blade, I may when one the Frueds I have gives up the ghost, just to compare.
Brian
I have a 10" Delta Unisaw and just about every blade Freud makes. All work well for their intended purpose, however I find that for 95% of my cuts (rip, cross, plywood), I use their 24T thin kerf rip blade. Unless you need a perfect edge, no need to spend the time swapping it out for the recommended one. Remember the fewer the teeth, and the narrower the kerf, the less force needed to push the wood through (also aids in control). Also, the faster you can push it through, the less chance of burning. As for Teflon coated, about half of my blades are, and I've never seen a benefit.
Jon
Ditto dude,
The teflon just minimizes the schmutz or buildup on the blade. I suppose if a Mfgr polished the blade rather than leaving it sanded or mill finished there would be less buildup.
With the teflon I have a fraction of the buildup. I haven't really compared all of the brands and types but I know what rises to the top of the heap in my shop.
Someday maybe a forrest til then the Freud.
'Sometimes a sawblade is just a sawblade'
DML Golden Eagle. By far the best I've ever used.
I use Freuds in all my saws, find them more than adequate.
They re-sharpen well, too.
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