My Dad wants to buy a dovetail machine. He’s woodworked all his life and never made a dovetail. He’s a pretty good woodworker and has made some real nice pieces over the years: just nothing that required dovetails. I tried convincing him to do some hand dovetails. (I’ve never used a dovetail machine, myself.) Nevertheless, he’s convinced otherwise, and now is determined to buy a machine.
That said, and with these circumstances, which is the best machine to go with, and why? Note: there are no budget issues.
Thanks in advance.
Denny
Replies
Leigh D4R
http://www.leighjigs.com/d4.php
Excellent jig. You can make perfect dovetails with it. I also have the vac add on.
I would purchase it again without hestation.
Thanks for the opinion. I don't know them; only what I read. The Leigh, Akeda and PC all get pretty good reviews. Thing that scares me is the set up times and learning curves.
Denny
Very easy to setup and use. <!----><!----><!---->
Videos are very well done.<!----><!---->
I only do dovetails maybe 2 or 3 times a year. I have to re-watch the video and quick thumb through the manual. It’s really a great quality jig.<!----><!---->
Good luck.<!----><!---->
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Thing that scares me is the set up times and learning curves...
You are correct. I have one and several other of their jigs. All in all, gets expensive for all the attachments but still a great tool.
Why not just go shopping together to find what he wants?
"Why not just go shopping together to find what he wants?"I agree - that's the best way to ensure the right selection.
I don't mean to highjack this thread but since we are talking about dovetail jigs, I have the DR4 and on occasion have a problem with one or two of the dovetails being a bit small for the socket, it appears that maybe the finger on the jig is maybe a bit cocked, but I cant seem to figure a way to make sure they are all square with each other. Any tips would be appreciated. By the way I have the Leigh frame and mortice jig also and smile every time I cut a mortice and tennon and it just slides together perfectly every time.
"It's just one board at a time."
Edited 12/7/2009 1:06 am ET by donbean46
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I have made 50-55 through tails drawer box’s out of 1/2"-3/4" white pine. These turn out extremily good because I think the material works exceptionialy easy. So you can be off by a bit and still squeek stuff togeather. <!----><!---->
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I have made 10 or so half blind’s and those were more challenging. I used serveral test boards before I got it acceptible. <!----><!---->
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I also did a small step stool that used thicker 1” material and I did have some gaps. I filled them with sawdust and titebond III. Gasp! I know. Nobodys perfect; except my wife that is.<!----><!---->
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So I’m not an expert by any means but I usually use the narrowest pin setting and wider tails. I just like this look. So maybe by keeping the fingers in pairs it keeps them straighter? The stool where I had some gaps used symetical pins and tails to the fingers were apart a bit? So maybe it has something 2 do with it?<!----><!---->
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I also have come to believe a dovetail is fitted once. If you put it togeather and take it apart it a lot it is more likely to show gaps. I think the fibers get compressed a bit and then you notice gaps. Or at least I do. This might not be true for hardwood but I generally build my drawers out of white pine.<!----><!---->
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Not sure if that helps at all but I have used the rockler jig and a porter cable. Both older versions but both jigs were very frustrating and the fun factor was definiltly not there.<!----><!---->
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Go to a big box store and pickup a small stack of 2”x6”. Mill them up and experiment. Not sure if you mill your own lumber or not? I have all the machines to make pretty much whatever I want and I’m really crazy about milling to exact thinkness. Even a slight 1/64” deviance can cause gaptastic problems.<!----><!---->
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Thanks for the reply, a little clarification might be in order, the tails will fit perfect in five or six of the sockets and then, usually at the end one there will be a gap like the tail isn't wide enough, or the socket (space between the pins) is too wide. I guess I just have to play with it a little more, I'm obviously doing something wrong.
"It's just one board at a time."
Could be caused by the comb riding a little high off the board at one end...
You know, now that you said that I wonder if maybe I'm lifting the router a bit , thats all it would take, its always the socket too big, never the tail too wide. I'm going to be more aware and see if that doesn't solve my problem. Thanks for tossing things around a little, Sometimes all I need is a little banter to work through the issues.
"It's just one board at a time."
Good luck!
Am I correct in assuming that you mean that a couple of the pins (the part cut with a straight bit, forming an angle perpendicular to the grain) are a touch smaller than the spaces between the tails (the part cut with the dovetail bit, forming an angle in line with the grain)?I'd think that if you put a straight edge against the front tips of the "fingers", any mis-alignment would result in a noticeable space. Depending on the spacing, you should also be able to accurately measure successive distances to check alignment.I don't have a DR4, so I'm not sure if it has the same issue as my PC 4212, but it's also important to have a spacer block, the same precise thickness as the stock being cut, under the far end of the template when cutting relatively narrow stock. Otherwise, it's possible for the surface of the template to be slightly out of square. That, however, would affect the fit of all the pins, not just a couple.
I have the leigh d4R with the vac attachment and its great. The best part is the directions are very well written and if he's like me and only has the need for a dovetail ocastionally and have to refresh the memory the videos bring it back in a heartbeat. It makes great joints and is very well made. I'd get it again without a second thought. If you want to see how its used just go to youtube and goole leah d4r and watch the vid and judge for yourself.
...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
Thanks, that shows me something
Denny
I have the Akeda and find it to be a well-built, easy to use jig.
Michael
Thanks. I've heard that, too. There website and videos are lousy. Shame, because I understand it's a good machine.
Denny
Yeah. I find the setup very easy, and the repeatability excellent. The dust collection works very well and I've found it collects almost all the material. I purchased the Whiteside bits and they are excellent.I have the 16" Akeda, but I've heard the 24" one is just as good.Michael
Yes, I use strictly Whiteside for my router bits. Thanks.
Denny
The Keller has been my favorite for years, supper easy to set up and use, solid as a rock.
http://www.kellerdovetail.com/
+1 on Keller. I've used a number of dovetail jigs and in my opinion, the Keller is hands down the easiest and most enjoyable to use. It's about as idiot proof as they come(I should know ;)
One question your Dad should answer first is what type of DT does he want to use? Half Blind? Through? This will impact his choice considerably. The Keller is a Through DT jig. Leigh and some of the fancier jigs will cut both. Another question...make sure he knows that many of the Half Blind jigs cut those ugly(in my opinion) zipper looking dovetails...the type you find on run of the mill kitchen cabinets. They don't look much like REAL Dovetails but to each their own I suppose.
Plus, David Keller will personally help you if your Dad has any issues. I know, I called him one day and he spent 15 minutes on the phone w/ me.
Edited 11/30/2009 11:58 am ET by Woodk
+2 on keller. I have the basic model, and made a perfect dovetail on my first try.
In addition to the "what kind?" question, a more basic question is whether he wants the DTs evenly spaced (fixed jig) or adjustable. The Porter Cable 4200 series are excellent for fixed DTs, both through and half-blind, and has templates available for both 1/2" and 1/4" (handy for thin stock for small boxes and such). Although the Leigh jig has been the "king" of adjustable jigs, the new PC Omnijig is perhaps the most versatile jig available now. But, it's large and heavy - suggesting a permanent set-up. The PC 4200 series (lighter and stowable) have little depth stops that can be preset, simplifying the router set-up, the Omnijig has a dozen or so of these, so multiple setups can be preset.
+1 to what Ralph said. I bought the PC 4200 6 months ago. Didn't have any near-term interest in the variable spacing feature or the $$ ante for the Omni or the Leigh. Am sure they are great products, just didn't want one for now - but you might. The PC has very straight-forward instructions. Works as advertised.
ALSO - I'd suggest you get him a piece of 1 x 6 or 1 x 8 (8-foot length) from the nearest Borg to go with any jig you buy. He can cut it into 8" lengths, and by the time he plows through them, he will (a) understand how to use the jig, and (b) have a bunch of 1 x short scraps laying around. All the pieces will be identical, so he can repeat the exact same thing until he gets it right - worth the price of the pine, rather than assembling and milling practice pieces from the stuff he likely has laying around.
Blew:
As others have noted the Keller jig is very easy to use and produces great results. Very short learning curve too.
I was all set to buy the new P-C omnijig in Atlanta and we happened by Keller's booth. We left with one and I haven't regretted it for an instance.
You can do variable spacing but not half-blind.
Hastings
Thanks.
Denny
Denny,
I will recommend a woodrat, not just for making DTs of all kinds, sizes and spacings but also because it makes many other types of joint. It isn't wholly automatic (although neither are DT-specific jigs really). However it does allow one to make very neat and well-fitting DTs with only a little practice.
http://woodrat.com/
An alternative is the very similar but more recently-designed Router-Boss:
http://www.thecraftsmangallery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=W/CTGY/M
These machines are not inexpensive but they are very versatile - your dad will have a lot of interesting times exploring the many things they can do.
Here is a pic of some woodrat-made DTs:
View Image
Lataxe
I'll take a look at that.
Denny
Here's another post in favor of Lataxe's suggestion. I would lean toward the Router Boss for a number of reasons. Especially so since you are in the US. I had a WoodRat for nearly ten years and now have a Router Boss. I'm glad I made the change.If you want first hand info on either machine or a comparison, drop me an e-mail.Dave
Thank you.
Denny
Have you even broached the subject whether your Dad really wants a router jig vs learning to do it with hand tools?
Many feel it is too hard to do, but once you get the hang of it cutting dovetails by hand is pretty quick.
Jeff
Yes I have. He's convinced he wants a jig.
Denny
I have 6 jigs and I agree with Lataxe about the Woodrat. Here's a sample of mixing 'em up. They don't have to be balanced, but I like them that way.
http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/632/Childs_Dresser_006.jpg
Edited 11/30/2009 2:13 pm ET by knuts <!-- KNUTS4 -->
Edited 11/30/2009 2:14 pm ET by knuts
I have the big 24" PC Omni Jig and love it.
It is big and heavy, (& expensive) I have it fastened to the top of a dedicated cabinet with dc piped in. I prefer doing hand cut dove tails but if I have a lot of DT's to cut and the customer wont pony up the funds for hand cut, the Omni Jig takes care of the job. It is easy to set up, I guess you could say it is idiot proof. I have two routers dedicated to that work station this makes life even easier for me.
I agree with the Whiteside router bits!
Taigert
Sounds like two routers is the way to go.
Denny
It quickly pays for itself in the amount of time you save if you do a lot of work. Everything is all set up when you pick up the tool, no need for test cuts.
Taigert
Yes, having two routers (one for the straight bit and one for the dovetail bit) is very handy. Being able to dedicate them to one size of dovetail would be great, too, but not possible for me. I use the depth stop on my PC 4212 to set the bits, and then typically make one set of test cuts on scrap of identical size to the work pieces.As a side note, I also use a shooting board to get the ends precisely square and corresponding sides precisely the same length. Doing so augments the precision of the jig.
Ralph,
Square-ended boards are very important with the DTs, as you point out. Your reminder prompts me to mention that the woodrat can, as one of it's many tricks, begin your DT-making session by squaring even the roughest ole board-end; and to a very fine tolerance.
If one scribes the required line across the board-face, near the ragged or otherwise naff end, the board may then be held vertically and naff-end-up within the rat's vice. A bottom-cutting bit straight is then used to go the "wrong" way around the circumference of the board end, such that the bit cuts down exactly to the knifed line. Going the wrong way around (climb-cutting) ensures that there are no whiskers or breakout left around the board end's edges. Climb cuts are safe in the rat as everything is strapped down.
Without taking the board out of the rat, the straight bit may then be swapped for a DT bit and, after setting the required depth of the tail, the required tail-holes are cut. Flipping the board in the vice horizontally allows symmetrical DTs to be cut, if wanted. Flipping the board vertically allows the other end to be done. Rapido!
Lataxe
Interesting idea. I assume one could use the same technique to have the rat help gnaw off corresponding box sides to the same length?(I apologize for the "ratty" pun, but my temptation resistance is a pint low this morning. ;-) )
Ralph,
That rat has interchangeable teef, of course (the router bits) so can gnaw many bite-types, from shark-like neat severances to Very Strange Shapes. But also DTs and M&Ts of every shape and variety.
For a fellow lacking an accurate cross cut saw or plane-with-shooting board, the rat method of cleanly squaring a board end is quite useful. A sharp bit which can bottom-cut, cutting around the board end the "wrong" way, will leave a very smooth end-grain surface and the plank-ends will be dead square to the edges if those plank edges were parallel when the board was put into the rat vise.
If a rat is mounted high on the shed wall, with clear space beneath it, quite long planks can be hung from the rat vise and so-squared on their ends. I have a normal and a high mounting point for my rat; it simply unhooks-from/hooks-to lipped battens mounted on the wall. The high mount allows any joint (eg a tenon or mortise) to be cut on the end of boards up to 6 feet long. I have to stand on a (large) step to do the business when the rat is mounted high.
For a fellow lacking a TS with a capacious sliding crosscut table, this high-rat arrangement may be useful for square-cutting long board ends. Or making a DT'd carcass 6 foot long!
Lataxe
Questions for you sir.When you work longer boards in the high position, do you use any additional support for the work? Do you use any additional clamping on the carriage to hold the work?I demonstrated my Router Boss to a fellow who has a shop on an upper floor of an old warehouse building. He has a spot to mount it over a hole in the floor that can be uncovered when he needs to deal with longer stock. Seems like a nice way to deal with longer stuff but not very practical with a concrete floor as in my shop.
Dave,
I generally cut long boards that are lightweight (eg a 1"X3" rail) with no additional support. I have cut heavier long planks using chocks (a small stack of other planks) to support the bottom end of the plank hanging out of the woodrat vise. If the vised plank needs to moved sideways via the rat's carriage, the supporting plank needs to have a smooth surface so one will slide agin the other.
In truth the rat's vise will grip very tightly, especially if the jaws are lined with rough sandpaper. Even if the weight of the plank pulls the rat out of square with the wall a little, it doesn't matter as the router platform also tilts a corresponding amount and so remains square to the plank.
Lataxe
Thank you for that.Yes, the cam clamp is very secure. I was always amazed at how much weight I could clamp up and not have it slip.Dave
Holy Jeez...I just investigated the Woodrat site, on your recommendation, and the thing is $650 (US), Lataxe!Even the big Leigh is less than that.I'm always on the lookout for production enhancing equipment, but man...For that much money, I could buy a lot of boards, and practice enough to get fast by hand.
Hey Jammer,But can you cut mortises and tenons and panel slots in rails and stiles or cut bridle joints, profile edges, raise panels, make dowels of any size with a Leigh Jig? Oh wait. Buy the Leigh FMT, too and you've got the mortises and tenons covered. Can you cut haunched tenons with the FMT?The WoodRat and Router Boss aren't inexpensive if all you're looking at is dovetails but when you compare the price with the total of the machines you'd end up buying to do everything these things can do, the price isn't so bad.
Goot Lawd, Mr Six,
Are ye a man over-cannie with the mickles and muckles? That woodrat is an inexpensive item compared with, say, a proper handplane or one o' them machines that does nowt but cut square holes.
As to Leigh jigs - well, no doubt they are well made and so forth but there does seem to be some kind of "trap-em" marketing approach behind the many "extras" needed in order to do anything much more than the basic task of making a DT. The many, many extras. The many, many, many extras. Their marketing approach reminds me of the photographic SLR-trap of the so-called "system", a marketing man's wet dream of endless attractive and expensive add-ons for achieving all sorts of specialist tasks; but only one task per add-on.
However, all may choose a particular gubbins to suit their own economics and preferences. Personally I do like a universal machine - one capable of many tasks rather than (like the hollow chisel mortiser) a machine that does only one thing. Most DT jigs seem to be one-trick ponies - unless one acquires those extra bits, which seem to add up to 4X the price of the basic thang.
I suppose that high-production runs might justify a dedicated one-trick pony of a machine; but for a hobbyist such machines seem an inefficient way to getting the most capability-bang for the least number of bucks.
A Woodrat or Router Boss also seems the appropriate universal 3D carriage to suit that wonderous universal cutting machine, the router. Together they are capbable of an enormous range of machine joint-making and other wood-altering operations.
Lataxe
Lataxe...wonder what Leigh would charge for a sugar tong vise attachment! Since Woodrat, I have no fear of 3 legged dovetailed table legs,
Whut?You know, sometimes I can't unnerstan a werd yew say, buddy...When that happens, I just dig out the pictures you posted, and content myself with the thought that you must have SOME redeeming quality, to have landed such a lovely wife.P.S. I"m with you on the mortise machines. I know I'm old fashioned, but ever since Dad taught me, I've always set the mortise width by my chisels, and cut them by hand.He showed me once that he can cut a pair of mortises in the time it takes to set up a router, and he's right. I've never looked back, and I've never considered a mortise machine.
Edited 12/4/2009 8:44 pm by Jammersix
David,
Thanks for all your two cents( Or would that be a threepnee bit) of knowledge on all woodworking subjects. If nothing else it's always fun to read your threads just to try and figure out what you've said. Perhaps you should write a column in one of our American papers each week. Bloody H---, it would be a lot more challenging and interesting than a cross word puzzle!
At any rate the water is getting a little chilly here but the weather is always great for cycling. So when are you and the lady wife coming on holiday to visit us here in So. Cal, USA.? Americas finest City awaits! I could probably even get you a speaking engagement at the monthly San Diego Fine woodworkers meeting. I'm certain you wouldn't be short on things to say, and besides I could use the practice on being a translator from British English to American English.
Ta,
Danny
Danny,
Well, it seems unlikely that an audience of californees would understand my argot. You see, it int just the qweeah words but also the Geordie accent. (Imagine a broad Scottish crossed with Norwegian and Welsh). Then there are the outlandish concepts and the foreign notions that seem unvisited by the American psyche. Yes, I yam a furner of the worst ilk!
However, I would enjoy the surf and sitting in a pavement cafe watching All Life pass before my startled eyes. Perhaps the ladywife and I will cross The Pond again to LAX, although I cannot say I have fond memories of that Kafka-esque palace of the 57 varieties of security official. How many times does it require one to remove and replace one's shoes to prove that one is not a subversive intent on stealing all the cactii or despoiling the maidens (the few that are left)?
Then there is the fud; I would have to bring the ladywife's allotment produce, as that GM stuff you have over there would only cause me to have one eye in the pot and the other up the chimney. I have heard it grasps at one's genes, causing strange thoughts and behaviours; and then inflation occurs.
But I suppose one should discount the wilder rumours concerning the place. :-)
Lataxe, often incomprehensible, even to hisself.
Dave,
So are the qweeah words of a Gordie similar to say a cockney vocabulary? Like I said, we Californees would have much fun trying to understand your points, positions and plane fettling babbelings. So furen are ye that we may just considers you from another planet, alien like in speech at minimum. Since I haven't yet laid eyes on your countenance,I'll hold my opinion of that, though if you be travelin with your lovely lady wife, no foreign labels or alien tiles would be attributed to you, unless of course she had you on a leash, in a cage or chained. Not just yet sure what you had reference to regarding the fud or produce allotment, but then that's what keeps us coming back for more of your wild word warblings . But then we also have one of your great past leaders to thank for so heartily encouraging us to never, never,never,never give up! Tah Rah for now!
Danny
Edited 12/5/2009 11:48 pm ET by brownman
Look around, Brownman.He posted a pic of his bad self in a bathing suit.
Maybe I don't want to see that!
You probably want to avoid the Real Men's Picture Contest, then.Our resident stud muffins posed in the snow, some of them weren't wearing enough cloth to pad a crutch.I was impressed. Particularly with the fish.
Would you mid posting the model number of the Whiteside bits you use? I checked their website and didn’t see any bits specifically for the new 24” Omnijig (77240). I’m looking for replacements for the D4 and S2 bits.
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Also where did you buy your bits from?
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Thanks.
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Trevor
Right off hand I have no idea where to even start looking for the numbers. We just moved the shop as well as our home in the same month. So you might say things are a mess at the moment. It is going to take some time to get the time to sort that stuff out. The priority has been in getting the shop back up and running, we are still in this stage. Hopefully tomorrow we will be able to start hanging pipe for the dust collector, I have my fingers crossed.
Taigert
Like the 4200 series, the Omnijig is designed for 7° DT bits. There are specs for the bits on page 5 of the Omnijig user manual, which is available online through the PC/Delta site. You should be able to match those specs against the Whiteside listings. Note, too, that different bit and template guide bushing combinations are used, depending on the style of the joint being cut.
One other limitation of the fixed jigs to think about. Because of the fixed spacing, it is far more convenient to work with the optimal stock widths specified for the jig, so you end up with a half pin at both ends. You can work around that limitation, but doing so is a hassle.
I have had a Keller jig for 20 years and have never found that to be an issue. If I want it fancy then I use the other jig, a saw and chisel..
Am I correct in assuming that a half pin at each end would be "fancy"? ;-)
I think not! But it is pretty easy to "adjust" things so you get a half pin with the Keller. Also, any jig really is more of a production tool and having the stock fit the jig is not that big of a deal and they make a couple sizes to help with that.I still like my L-N dovetail saw and old Buck Bros. chisels when I need narrow pins and odd spacing. I can cut them by hand faster than setting up one of the supper adjustable jigs.
I am a new woodworker, and I have only been working with wood for one year as of November. I bought the Porter-Cable 24" omni-jig which obviously seems a bit much for a neophyte, but I have been making perfect variable spaced dovetails from the start. Being a neophyte, it took me longer to set it up than most people, but I love it and try to find anything to use it on. I just finished shop drawers with dovetails. My wife thinks I'm a little crazy, but I enjoy making them. The omni-jig is definitely heavy and needs a permenant place. I also got the dust collector for it, and it works great. Anyway, that's the opinion of a neophyte such as it is.
I wondered about that.
Denny
The PC 4200 instructions specify optimal board widths of 1" increments plus 1/4" for the 1/2" template, and 1/2" increments plus 1/8" for the 1/4" template. Optimal widths for other jigs may vary, based on spacing and the angle of the bit used. It's easy enough to work with that at the design stage, making life easier and more "productive" when doing the setup. That, after all, is the objective of using a jig rather than hand-cutting. The PC 4200 series isn't for the person who wants skinny little pins, as opposed to balanced pins and tails, though.
Are you talking about a DOVETAILING JIG or a DOVETAILING MACHINE?
If he lived near me I would donate the Leigh jig which I have had for about 15 years and never used even once, much preferring to do them "my way" and the instruction manual was too thick.☺
I tend to think that one is better off in the long run acquiring a method for doing them by hand before one gets jigs or machines.
If he wants a machine Brookman in England make one.....
No, I guess this would be a "jig" he's looking for. I tried getting him to do some by hand but he's a machine sorta guy.
Denny
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