Friends,
I write this message in all seriousness. No humor here. In the past few years, I have seen too many email messages, about local woodworkers who have died, and their tools are being sold off. I have been to a few of these sales. It is obvious to me that the woodworkers whose tools were being sold off at ridiculously low prices, put absolutely no thought into what would happen to their beloved tools after they died, and made no preparation for it.
Many of us have tools that were handed down from previous generations of our family. Our spouses don’t know which tools these are and which we bought. Our spouses don’t know a Lie Nielsen plane from Blue Spruce striking knife, or an expensive Bandsaw from a Sears Craftsman bandsaw. Most spouses wouldn’t know that one separated one’s collectible but useable Stanley 45 into the plane which is stored in one place, the cutters in another, and the original box for the plane and the cutters which was lovingly put away in another box for safekeeping.
Some of us not only have our woodworking tools, but have collections of tools, some of which are quite valuable (I do not, but that is an aside).
So put yourself in the place of your spouse shortly after you die. She has cousin Ralph who want’s those five nice Holtey planes that he tells her that you promised him. How is she going to get rid of your 15″ planer and your 12″ jointer, which she would like to get rid of so she can install a big new loom for her weaving?
Do you have any idea of which tools you want:
1) to go to which family members, with an explanation that they came from Great Granddad Sven, who taught Tage Frid how to cut dovetails with a bowsaw.
2) which tools are not worth thinking about and should be thrown out in the trash, or put in “Buck a tool” bin in a yard sale.
3) which are expensive and nice tools which tools which could provide her with some useful cash, possibly tens of thousands of dollars.
Have you talked to your spouse about ways to sell different types of tools? (Craig’s list, Ebay, etc)
Does your spouse have any idea of the price ranges that these tools should go for (not retail, but in a tool sale).
Does you spouse know that you shouldn’t just pile up the Holteys, the Marcous and the original Stanley #1 in a cardboard box without putting some soft stuff between them?
I don’t have the answers as to how best to handle this, and it is certainly a difficult issue. BUT I BELIEVE IT IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE. It is not purely monetary, but some of you do have sets of tools which should easily sell for over three or four thousand dollars, some of you have tools worth tens of thousands on the resale market, IF THE SALES ARE HANDLED WELL.
I suggest that you think about this, and write in and make some suggestions to the rest of us on how to handle this well.
Some ideas come to mind.
1) Make a handwritten list of your expensive tools, along with a date and a suggested selling price, and a suggested sales method. Or at least list the tools.
2) Have your spouse join you in your shop with a video camera, and go through each tool, and say something about it. Open each drawer, and say what is in each drawer and give some info that might be useful to her (or him).
I know this is a difficult issue and we don’t like to think about our demises. However, I believe that many of us will eventually die. I don’t like the “sales” that I have seen in recent years of deceases woodworker’s tools. I believe our spouses could use some help. I believe our “special tools” from ancestors need to be passed down with a written explanation to someone who will appreciate them. I believe it would be good to have some paper and video with useful info to give your spouse NOW!
Any thoughts? Do you think I am being too morbid?
Have a nice day.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Erie but I was thinking about this not too long ago. My Brother would help my wife. He is a wood worker and I would trust him with my life so if I were gone, I would trust him as well. However, he is older than I by 17 years so I should write things down you are correct. There are a couple of things that belonged to my dad that I would want to go to my son.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Get some tiny, colored coded adhesive dots from Staples or wherever. One color means highly collectable, another means promised to the neighbor and still another means garden variety, sell at yard sale.
It's easy to say keep a journal of what you have, but that takes too much regimentation for me! Plus, once you start keeping accounts of what you buy or collect, it becomes too much like a business.
Use color coded dots and make sure your family members know what each mean. I have some on my tools, but definitely on my collection of Civil War and veteran memorabilia.
T.Z.
T.Z.
I outdistance My Lovely Assistant, by a respectable margin, in the age department. I am doing my best to teach her how to use all my tools so our projects can continue even in my absence. Heck, she's even taken to acquiring tools of her own that are missing from my stock -- e.g., she recently picked up a small lathe (I'd parted with mine years ago -- wasn't using it enough to justify the space).
As for your thoughts, I think your suggestions are good ones.
Another thought regarding heirloom tools -- teach your kids (or whoever you think should have the tool) how to use 'em and give them to them now. Most of my tools of this ilk are not particularly valuable, or even the best example of the tool in my shop -- I just keep 'em around for sentimental value. So there's no really good reason to wait to make the gift. This has the added benefit that maybe I'll get to enjoy watching the results of the gift while I'm still around.
If you don't worry about who gets your tools, you may wish to consider marking them. I know my own collection has a lot of yard sale tools, and I'd kinda like to know at least the name and location of their former owners as a kind of connection to the past.
Now you've given me one more item for my "To Do" list. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Your first priority would be to have a last will and testament.
Here in California it called a Statutory Will. And in California if you don't have a will, your entire estate, will be handed over to the State of California to figure out probate & what tools will go to who? which is not a good thing.
So if you don't have a will in place you better think about it because all of the planing you do for the family, will be for nothing with out a will.
Tony Czuleger
Edited 3/2/2009 11:42 am ET by TonyCz
MIke,
I really like your idea about giving your kids the heirloom tools now, and borrowing them back until you kick the bucket. That doesn't work when you have kids but none of them want the tools. A way to handle that might be to make a special display case for the heirloom tools along with a hand made sign with info about the tools. Maybe they would keep the tools as a display-able family heirloom. I did know a guy who had one of the world's great collection of Winchester rifles. He had two sons, who had no interest in guns. I asked him to adopt me. He did not.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
We were given some forms by the lawyer when we had the trust drawn up. He told us to list the personal items we wanted to go to surviving families and friends, fairly straight forward. His other suggestion was to take a room at a time and video record each item, state how much you paid for it and who you want to have it when you’re gone. It’s also great to have in case you need to make an insurance claim.
By the way Monday is a tough day for a reality check.
Dusty,
"By the way Monday is a tough day for a reality check."Your response woke me up. I didn't write my message as a wake up call. I wrote it because I was sitting here in the middle of a snowstorm and enjoying a cup of coffee. Being retired, I didn't even realize it is Monday. Although I am learning a way to tell which are weekdays and which are weekend days. On weekdays, the stock market goes way down. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
A good cup of coffee can be a great aid during times of snow storms and economic ailments.
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I place a great value on my tools, they are an extension of who I am and one can not place a monetary value on that, thank God.
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I think you're worrying about something that isn't that important.
If your collection of tools really is worth "tens of thousands", then see a lawyer, and write a real will.
If it isn't, use the time for the lawyer to deal with real property, vehicles and things that ARE worth tens of thousands.
Your "collection" is another man's used tools, a third man's suspects, and their wive's junk.
I've sold off lots of equipment as a contractor, I've liquidated companies, and one of the things that always strikes me, even with my experience, is lots of equipment that are being carried on the balance sheet as worth tens of thousands going for hundreds, or dozens.
Make sure the real property is covered by a real will, written by a real attorney.
Then don't lose any sleep about the pennies in the basement that rolled under the bench.
Ah Mel, I knew who started this thread even before I clicked the link. I don't plan to go anywhere soon. Hopefully, I can pick up the Hotleys from your estate sale. (To those not in the know who may think I am being rash, view my profile and compare it to Mel's)
Edit: I hope I am not being to morbid!
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 3/2/2009 8:03 pm by flairwoodworks
Chris,
Yup, you are one of the young-uns among us. You are lucky. We are jealous of you. You are special in another way too. You have a fondess for fine tools which rivals that of Lataxe. I believe that by the time you kick the bucket, you will have a tool collection that will be appropriate for a museum. Maybe you could take a portion of the money you make from woodworking and set it aside to fund the building of the museum to house your tools. :-)
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I hope you are not delivering some bad news in a gentle way.
I have thought of this myself. Since I bought a lot of my equipment at auctions, I know how cheaply it can be priced, especially now in this market. I get a couple of auction notices each week, and lately a couple a day.
I have so many tools, that I have though, I feel sorry for whomever has to deal with this.
One thing that I would like to add to your thoughts that I have started doing when I loose a friend, is something that I learned when my father died. Dad had chosen an old favorite pastor to deliver his funeral ceremony. After it was over, the preacher ask us for something /anything that was Dad's, just to remember him by whenever he saw it.
I think we gave him Dad's knife. This struck me as a very fine way to remember our friends, and I have done this a few times since then. I got a very nice rabbet plane from a good friend's passing this way. You can be sure that I can not pick up this tool without remembering Sam every time. I even got one of his turning to boot. His family members were very generous.
Beyond the tools, I guess the thing that I have to deal with, are the things which I have made, and still have on hand in the studio, or will have when the time comes.
After all, who among us doesn't want to be remembered after we are gone. Unless things change drastically soon, we all are doomed to pass. There are plenty of religious beliefs which guide the action of our lives. I guess if you have been successful enough to leave a lot of money, your heirs will be grateful. However that has been known to break apart some otherwise good family relationships. Without having money to leave, I think leaving something of beauty that we have made is a really great way of leaving a reminder of the lives that we have lived.
Mel, I hope you are doing well, and don't mind my adding my thoughts to yours as well.
Keith,
Your gentle yet insightful spirit has uncovered yet another poignant parameter of the "death of a woodworker" issue -- the woodworker's need to be remembered. I believe you have hit on a universal theme. We all want to leave our mark. As you pointed out, the woodwork that you produced is more important in keeping your legacy alive than you tools. I have been thinking about what I should have engraved on my tombstone.
Maybe "He was a whiz with a smoother." Naw, I need to keep thinking about that one. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You have opened up a real can of worms with this one.
Mortality. Posterity. Parsimony.
I have a few tools that belonged to my granddad and a lot that were my dad's. I have some that belonged to the wife's dad, and his father, who was a carpenter. A couple that my brother in law's father owned. I have tools that belonged to friends, mentors, and fellow woodworkers who have passed, that I acquired at their estate sales. I have tools that are hundreds of years old, that I have no idea who used, and tools that I've made myself that only I have used, and likely will never be used after I am gone. They'll probably be consigned to those "whatsis?" piles at the tool collector show, if they are kept at all.
My son has little interest in woodworking at this time. Maybe someday he will, but if not, I hope he'll not need something like a plane to remember the old man.
What is is about stuff though, that we bestow iconic status to it? This was Carlyle Lynch's handsaw. His knarly arthritic old knuckles wrapped around this handle which I now hold. I'm not worthy! Do we hope that some of that old time skill will rub off on us? Or that a wisp of the spirit of the true craftsman remains to inspire? ("Tilt it a little to the left, you're not square!")
Then there's the "don't just give it away" feelings that accompany the stuff we so painstakingly researched, studied, drooled over in the catalogs, and set up, fettled, polished, lapped, sharpened. I have a lot invested in that old Millers Falls brace. You should have seen it when I got it. Now it's better than new. Be a shame if all my work only brought a few dollars at the sale.
I had the privilege a few years back of doing some work for one of the premier furniture collectors in the country. His was the largest private estate sale that Sotheby's had ever managed, at the time they sold his stuff. A lot of people said it was a shame to break up such a collection, worth millions. His children had little interest in it, he could have endowed a museum to house it, but it was dispersed over the course of 2 or 3 days. Soon tho, I began seeing items that I recognised, for sale by premier antique dealers. A blanket chest he'd owned, now paired with a matching miniature chest from another source. Another chest, in a collection with similar items. The dispersal was coming together in new patterns, making other collections more complete.
Although there is something to be said for collections of rarities to be kept behind glass for study and preservation, I'd rather see tools in a situation where they will be used as intended when they were made, not laid up on some mantle shelf as an artifact, bereft of their true meaning and context.
I expect my tools will be sold at auction, or given away after my death. I like the idea of a few friends being given a memento mori as it were, but doubt if I will lose any sleep in my eternal dirt-nap over it.
Ray
Ray,
Your post is classic and classy. I wish I shared your skills as much as I share your values. You described the issue much better than I did. I won't elaborate you your post. It speaks for itself, and it is eloquent. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this important issue.
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Keith,
Thanks for taking time to allow me to interrupt your work a couple weeks ago. You should post some of your work here in the gallery. Maybe you have and I just haven't seen it. But your work would clearly be an inspiration to the forum readers.
You raise some good points in response to Mel's topic. I like your idea of giving a favorite tool to a friend as a memory.
Alan - planesaw
Mel, you would absolutely be impressed with the size of the turned bowls, etc., Keith can produce. His lathe used to turn railroad wheels!
Keith
Alan (Planesaw) says you turn some BIG bowls.
Do you have any photos of them and your lathe.
I don't turn bowls, I carve them, beginning with an angle grinder with 4 inch chainsaw blades. The last one I did, and it is now in a bag, trying to dry, is about two feet long and about 18 in wide and about 6" deep (as I remember). I take some pics and post them. Big bowls are fun. Everyone likes them and expresses amazement. I do try to make mine shapes other than round so that I can differentiate them from turned bowls. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks Alan for the compliment. It was good to meet and visit with you. I don't think I have any good shots of my big lathe, because I am not sure it is possible to make a good shot of it. ha, I tried shooting it, but I didn't really try to make it look good, and without a large project on it, with a person to give it scale, it really doesn't show much. I know I should be sharing more. I just did a little carving project which was a trade with a young lady who will be helping me with some computer work and training. K
Mel
It's not morbid at all. Dying is a part of living, and we should all make plans for our property--if you don't have a will get one ASAP. As a pastor, I've worked with too many families that did nothing to prepare for the day, and it is a GREAT burden to those who survive us to have to go through and figure this out. Tom
Actually, I have thought about this quite a bit.
I have instructed my wife to keep what she wants, give the kids
a few of the small power and hand tools they can use for home maintenance (none are into wood working).
donate the rest (planes,saws, shaves, rasps,layout,carving tools,large machines, wood etc. to some place like the Phila workshop (Alan Turner and Mario Rodrigues' school) where they will be most appreciated, well cared for and benefit new and aspiring woodworkers and afford them the experience of learning on quality tools.
I would hate to see the collection of tools I have so lovingly and thoughtfully amased over the years be sold off piecemeal for pennies on the dollar.
Gene
>I would hate to see the collection of tools I have so lovingly and thoughtfully amased over
>the years be sold off piecemeal for pennies on the dollar.Why?Assuming you've accumulated a collection that is Good Stuff, why would you not want a new woodworker to get a worthwhile piece of valuable equipment at a price he or she can afford?Why would you not one of us veterans to benefit by your choice?Where is the loss?Weren't you finished with it? If your wife (son, daughter, niece, nephew, paper boy, favorite son-by-choice-from-next-door) has the skills to use it, then by all means, make sure they get it. That is well within the abilities of anyone who is reading this post on the internet.Otherwise, the fact that the circle is going to turn, and that some woodworker somewhere, being a little sharper, a little faster on the mouse-draw, is going to end up with my tools pleases me. I hope they learn to appreciate the fact that I epoxied the handles on, and that the backs were all lapped flat.P.S. Forestgirl, you've got to tell me how you make your quotes blue. :)
Edited 3/2/2009 10:30 pm ET by Jammersix
Gene,"I would hate to see the collection of tools I have so lovingly and thoughtfully amassed over the years be sold off piecemeal for pennies on the dollar."Almost all of us strongly agree with you. I certainly do. I have seen it happen all too often. Good luck in making your transition happen well. Maybe Knots could add another feature. When a Knots member dies, a list of his tools that is not wanted by the family will be posted on Knots, where the sale would be treated with respect by the rest of the woodworkers.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,When I die I hope they just prop me up beside the workbench...On a serious note. We've got to put realistic value on tools. Most of us 'collect' far more hand tools than actually needed. We may feel some sort of attachment to them, and feel a need to 'pass them on'; we've got to realize that a tool is just a tool in the end. What we put value on, others don't. Forcing them to live with these ghosts is just cruel. Keep things in perspective, nothing is forever. I think the fact we see so many tool auctions is just that: Lots of tools.I've been considering building two small tool chests. One for each of my sons. In it I can separate out a basic set of hand tools, enough to get them started in woodworking should them choose to pursue it. Otherwise small enough to keep around... or compact enough to sell as a kit.I have one plane that I hold some value to, as it was my grandfathers. Beyond that the rest have a monetary value. I might as well just leave a note in the tool chest: Don't sell anything with Lie Nielsen or Veritas on it cheap!
Mel , That's out of the question , I'm keeping mine !
dusty, what no tools ? o.k. hand tools only
Dusty,As a woodworker, I have been inspired by your message which says, "I'm keeping mine !" My inspiration is to make money by building special LARGE caskets for woodworkers, so that they can be buried with their tools! I believe there is real money to be made here.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel:
There is real value to be had in casket making. We just buried my Dad in early January in a fine pine box my brother and I made - nothing ornate, simple pine box with mediocre dovetailed corners. I was one of my dad's few requests as he was touched by the same gesture we made for my mother when she passed away a number of years ago. The value of course is not monetary (and I know you were being tongue in cheek with your post) but was deeply personal. I highly recommend it as a project when you need to do something to busy your hands and mind when your heart is hurting.
As for the extra large size to include tools, you are probably OK with hand tools, but as you try to supersize things to get in the big power tools, you'll have to check with the standard concrete vault sizes, lest you wind up needing a chamber in a pyramid.
Randy
I remember a story I was told as a child that Daniel Boone had constructed a Walnut casket for himself. The story goes he would store it under his bed and every so often pull it out to see if it still fit him. But alas, Martha, his wife died before him so he buried her in it.
I’ve tried to talk my wife in letting me build a couple of caskets and store them under our bed but I couldn’t get her to agree to it. Even after I explained to her that they could be used as storage until we needed them.
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Although I don't plan on dying in the near future, I did tell my daughters that I will enforce a prenup agreement with their future spouses ensuring any of my tools stay within the bloodline!
This blog is a reminder that all of us will die someday and we need to get ready. I hope my kids will want my tools but if they don't, I don't really care. Someone will get a good deal on them and I'm glad.Will they want the rest of the stuff we have collected over our lifetimes. I hope so. My wife and I have a few things from our parents and some from her grandparents. We cherish them mostly because they remind us of them. I hope the furniture I build for my kids and grand kids are something they will want to keep around for awhile and remember they long gone dad and granddad.My father in law will be 90 this year and is getting rid of stuff they have had for 50-60 years. My wife cherishes several little ceramics because she remembers them as a small girl. We have some china from her grandmother. We have a few pieces of furniture from my parents. I hope I am as smart as my father in law and don't wait too long to give things away. But lastly, the most important thing I hope I give my kids and grand kids is a good memory. All the rest is really unimportant.Domer
Domer,
"My father in law will be 90 this year and is getting rid of stuff they have had for 50-60 years.........I hope I am as smart as my father in law and don't wait too long to give things away".
That is wisdom. Tools are....tools, just as other objects are what they are and have the purposes they have. Accountants have reduced every object and its true purpose to "banknote". That is a shame and we shouldn't be following their grubby example, unless we too are content to be a shekel-counter and nothing more uplifting.
I like you and your father-in-law's attitude - if you don't need it, pass it to someone who does. You may or may not do so via a financial transaction. In either case what really matters is that tools continue to be used by folk who appreciate them for their utility, the things they bring in to the world and the great pleasure that this affords the thing-makers and users.
Let the collectors and dealers grub about buying and selling. They gloat over their dollar-substitutes and horde them in a dark safe where their soul dies. I would rather have that tool-using buzz. I hope my tools will eventually buzz another lad or lass by being in their hands as they make something.
Lataxe, wondering when accountants got to rule the world and why.
Randy,
Making the caskets for your mother and father was a very nice thing to do. You are correct, my comments about making money on caskets for woodworkers was tongue in cheek. Hope others recognized that too.Thanks for that very nice response.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have a picture on file (and an actual photo in a safe) in the computer showing the tool and a price list of what to ask on E-bay or Craigs-list for my lovely. And that includes hand tools. She is told on that list what to ask (65% of retail) and what to accept as a bottom line. The reason for the pictures is if I mention Industrial floor mortiser.. she would be very puzzled as to what that is.
Anything that doesn't sell (not likely as the price is fair enough and the tools are good quality and well maintained) will either be given to my BIL or donated to a vocational school with WW courses. I would rather give them away than have someone take advantage of her lack of knowledge hence... a detailed list for her to use and for home owners insurance in case of house fire.. etc.
Reality is reality..
Sarge..
Sarge,
I am not as organized as you describe, but I have noticed that certain tools on ebay are going for considerably less than usual. Two items that I am watching look like they are about to go for one fourth of what they have in the past. This economy is clearly changing the world. Even the tool world of ebay.
Alan - planesaw
And you are absolutely correct about seeing some real bargains out there which I think is due to the economy. There was a gentleman about 25 miles away the other day that listed on Craigslist...
Grizzly Tools... barely used.. some not used...
Griz 1023 Table-saw.. Griz 6" jointer.. Griz 6" edge sander.. Griz 1 HP DC.. DW biscuit jointer.. Griz DT jig.. Griz grinder... etc.
$1000...
He got over 60 calls within 30 minutes including mine.. I was ready to go to the bank and withdraw as I could re-sell them in 2 weeks for around $2500. I don't really need anything at this point for myself with maybe the exception of a drum sander.
The reason for giving them away essentially... he was on the verge of fore-closure on his home and desperate. Sad... really sad...
Sarge..
Mel,
I was reluctant to click on this thread due to the timing of the subject matter. However, I'm glad that I did for no other reason than one of your closing lines in the original post:
"...I know this is a difficult issue and we don't like to think about our demises. However, I believe that many of us will eventually die...."
That, my friend, is a classic.
Best!
-Jerry
Jerry,
Glad my last like gave you a giggle. It is possible that I have been listening to too many politicians. They tend to say strange things. It may be wearing off on me. For instance, here is the first line of my unauthorized autobiography, which I am having a difficult time with because I can't get anyone to write it for me. It begins:"I was born at an early age." I guess that I was influenced by a poem that I remember from High School:
----------------------
One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead boys got up to fight,
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot each other,One was blind and the other couldn't, see
So they chose a dummy for a referee.
A blind man went to see fair play,
A dumb man went to shout "hooray!"A paralysed donkey passing by,
Kicked the blind man in the eye,
Knocked him through a nine inch wall,
Into a dry ditch and drowned them all,A deaf policeman heard the noise,
And came to arrest the two dead boys,
If you don't believe this story’s true,
Ask the blind man he saw it too!
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You know Jerry, sometimes in the middle of yet another long thread on sharpening, I remember this poem, and it keeps me going. After rereading this poem, much of Knots makes sense to me.Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Yes, for the reason that makes perfect since.
-Jerry
Mel, your poem reminds me of a tale my father told me many times, he was a minister and had a bunch of stories as mosy ministers do. Anyway
"Four men were floating down the river on a marble slab,
One man didn't have a head,
One didn't have any arms,
One didn't have any legs,
And the last didn't have any clothes on.
The man without a head saw a duck,
The man without any arms picked up a gun and shot the duck,
The man without any legs walked over, picked up the duck,
and gave it to the man without any clothes on,
and he put it in his pocket."
There is no message here, just a story that my dad told.
Thanks for bringing back that memory.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Bruce,
Really like your father's story.
Thanks for posting it.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You guys have a weird taste for poetry.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
"You guys have a weird taste for poetry."Remember, the thing that got me to think of the weird poetry was the thread on testing the sharpness of high angle blades. Stay sane. It is a good thing to be. Remember what George W. Bush said "The mind is a wonderful thing to lose." or was it "The mind is a wonderful thing to use." I think he meant the latter but said the former.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Dear Lord, please don't let my wife sell my tools for what I told her I paid for them."
Amen to that!!!!!!!!!!
Mel,
I believe that was Dan Quayle who said, "a mind is a terrible thing to lose". He was, if I recall, speaking to the group whose tagline was "a mind is a terrible thing to waste".
If Dubya said it, he may have been quoting Yogi Berra.
Ray
Ray,George W and Dan Quayle???
Do you mean they are different people?
The same way as Charles Stanford and Boss Crunk???MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I have often wondered whether political parties and other partisan groups have a BigMold somewhere, from which they churn out cloned "people"who may be dressed in slightly different ways (like Barbie dolls) but are all exactly the same.
Certainly they all say the same things when you pull the string hanging out of their back. One cannot get them to listen or respond other than from the small set of string-pulling responses. There are only eight answers to everything. (Ten from the deluxe models).
So, in order to free all these molded folk to experience a wider variety of mental states and behaviours, I propose a group-molder-machine seek & destroy mission. We must take up Ned's example and apply sledge-hammers to the infernal molder machines.
Of course the white hot heat of new ideas might well melt a lot of folk and many will not have the resilience to be anything other than a politician's puppet or a priest's doll. Perhaps we must apply our woodworking skills to providing a prop or two, until the shock of the new has passed over the demolded ones?
Lataxe, amazed at how hoomans clone each other into crazy cliques of lookalikes.
You have not yet come to the realization that a walk through the ocean of most souls will scarcely get your feet wet.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
David,
There is NO DOUBT that humans have a strong need to be accepted by other humans, at least MOST HUMANS. THis is most often exhibited by a tendency to copy behaviour. Thus, kids wear similar hairstyles. Woodworkers crave to know COMMON PRACTICES. Thus in woodwork, we have generated and venerated archetypical "Leaders" who we have crowned as the answerers to our questions. THus we have Charlesworth, Schwartz, Cosman, Bird, Cohen, etc. They generate ANSWERS, and the nations of woodworking sheep line up to follow their words. This is, of course, why I have so much fun here on Knots, taking shots at the "common wisdom" of Knotsworld. I focus on skills over tools (OH NO, YOU ARE A HERETIC, MEL). I focus on tools as extentions of one's mind and hands, and not something to be worshiped. (EGAD, MEL, YOU ARE TREADING ON THIN ICE). I focus on trying to get woodworkers to learn to figure things out themselves rather than ask "Which bandsaw should I buy?" CHEEZES MEL, IF YOU DO THAT, THE WOODWORKING GODS WILL LOSE THEIR JOBS. I try to get woodworkers to think about not-so-obvious aspects of tools, such as the fact that Lie Nielsen tools are FREE (in a life cycle sense) since you can sell them for what you paid for them after using them for years.David, you are one of the people I look to to actually save the field of woodworking. You are one of the few who dances to their own drums. Actually, we have a number of independent thinkers here on Knots, and they are the fun folks. Then we also have the people who ask "Which is the best brand of tub for your waterstones?"Actually the reason I enjoy Knots so much is that there are more independent thinkers here than anywhere else I can find. You, my friend, are the most independent of all. More importantly, you are pleasantly independent. Some independent folks are a bit more obnoxious than Rush Limbaugh. I see no need for that. Smile while dancing to your own music.I once read something by a person who was trying to teach people to be creative. She said something like "Before attempting a new design, dance naked and freely for about ten minutes. It expunges your inhibitions."Young woodworkers ( by that I mean 50 to 60 years of age) often haven't fully developed their egos, and try too hard to find "THE RIGHT WAY". We have too many people who want to tell them the right way. If they would only listen to me (a thought that causes my wife to laugh), they would see that any way which is safe, is just fine, and don't worry about it, you'll come up with better ways as you practice and learn. The most important thing for a woodworker to learn is TO BE INDEPENDENT, to find his own way, to develop the knowledge that he can solve any problem in the shop. Woodworking is like dancing. We each do it differently. That's what makes it interesting. We pick up moves from others. That's fine, but we need to make them our own rather than to accept other woodworker "Leaders" as our Lords and Saviours. Let us celebrate the fact that we have a goodly number of independent thinkers here among the Knotheads. Let us hope that the independent thinkers cause others to "follow suit". Now doesn't that sound circular? It is like saying "The only thing that shouldn't be done in moderation is moderation itself." Wow, this is getting deep. You have hit the nail on the heaed, David. I do my best to cause other woodworkers to THINK, and not be sheep. That is the reason that I often throw in a nonsense answer into a thread. Once they understant that it is difficult to choose among answers on questions for which you have little background, they realize they HAVE TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES. Maybe you should become the president of the "Society for Independent Woodworking". I will try to develop some guidelines on just how independent people should be, and how they should demonstrate their independence. I want them to follow my guidelines. :-)Damn, you really got me going today. But stop to think about it, David. Do you realize how many times you have tried to change me:
- Don't be so nice all the time.
- Don't focus on less expensive tools.
- Don't write such long messages (funny coming from you. :-)
- Don't don't don't
You want people to be more independent, but you want me to be more like you like to think you are.I believe the answer to all of this is:God created each of us in Her own image. As a result, we try to shape others into our own self-images. Pardon me while I get down off of my own high horse. There is not much air up here.Have fun. (I love it when your posts are provocative.)
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
What a dissertation!
Had to get another cup of java for this one. But for what it’s worth I agree with you, except the ‘dancing naked for ten minutes’ part. Now I’ll have that image in my mind all day. :>
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Dusty,
I can't believe anyone read the dissertation-rant. I was having fun with Lataxe, who also writes long complex messages. He and I are quite different, but we have some big similarities too. It makes for interesting discussion. The great think about Lataxe is that he doesn't take offense. He's a good guy.So you can't get the image of dancing naked out of your head. Try it (alone in a closed room before you design your next piece of furniture, and see if you have increased "creativity". :-) THanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Oh great, you had to mention that dancing thing again, I can’t even dance fully dressed.
Mel,
I saw your dissertation distilled into a bumper sticker the other day. It said:
"You are a unique individual. Just like everybody else."
Ray
Ray,
You have a way of busting my bubble. I have to stop reading your posts. I like living in my own little world. You keep bringing realism into it. My wife does that too.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nice post Mel, you know I live for your dissertations. I like your new tact , you pull Lataxe in close with your words of endearment...(woodworking saviour, President of a society) ect... nice moves, Did you write it right after the dance?
Tom.
Edited 3/5/2009 2:52 pm ET by gofigure57
Mel,
"You want people to be more independent, but you want me to be more like you like to think you are".
Now, that is Anglish that has been tortured a bit and has begun to babble (for mercy probably). What does it mean, I wonders?
Of course, you cannot be me as I am yooneek and cannot be cloned. This is because by the time you have cloned "me" I will be someone else. No string in my back begawd! Although I am far from independent, as otherwise I wouldn't be able to type, dress myself or think - amongst several thousand other culturally-determined abilities I have.
However, I don't think I'm like what I think I am as there is not the same "I" to do the thinking and anyway "I" feel differently about "my"self an everything else today compared to yesterday - which may be because it's a different "I" today or might be because the "I" is still vaguely the same but has changed his mind (again) under the influence of the last book I read (or was it him, that previous I, reading it). I learnt this trick in 1968 under the influence of small piece of stained paper and a little black book of Situationist alta-thoughts.
Your problema is that you are either for or agin whole swathes of stuff. Also, you stay that way "on principal". This makes you a single you with no meme-drift but also means you are down a hole and can only see a little wee patch of sky, which stays broadly the same (shaes of grey).
Take a cue from the ladywife and try on a different set of ideas for a day, like she will choose a new shoen or frock; or even a hairstyle. (I bet your hair's been the same since you was 3 and 3/4). I mean, you can do it with woodworking modes so why not with "who I am and what I think about stuff" mode? Don't be just changing the grey suit for a darker grey one neither, mind, but!
Lataxe, string-in-the-back-remover and Mel-stimulator (same as a goad but it doesn't hurt).
Lataxe,
Time for a change.
On Saturday Morning, I leave for my annual pilgrimage to Big Sky, Montana, where the IEEE and AIAA holds their annual Aerospace Conference. The IEEE being the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineeres, and the AIAA being The American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics. Can you just picture 400 Aerospace Engineers on Skis for a week. YYEESSSSSSSS! "Nerds on Skis" We have a good time. The meetings go til about 10 every night. Skiing begins at 9 in the morning. I am going to give a talk at one of the evening "ice cream socials" which starts when the meetings end, and the talk will be on "carving bowls from green wood with a chain saw". I have lots of pictures, and I'll even take a bowl. How is that for mixing business and pleasure. So I will be out of the loop from March 7 to 14. If anyone asks me anythhing in that time period, would you just answer them for me?Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I really don't care, it's just stuff and the administrator of my trust can sort it all out... however if there really is an afterlife and I could potentially use them, well in that case I'd follow the example of Egyptian pharaohs and have them all buried with me.
Mel,
Great topic. Running a nonprofit, and doing some fundraising, I know that the overwhelming majority of people die without writing a will. They seem to think that if they write a will it means they will die. Their logic confounds me. According to my records, even the ones who don't right a will die too!
What they don't realize is their spouse or family lose control of whatever is going to happen to their stuff. The government gets to decide.
Alan - planesaw
This also goes for my guns, I only want them to go to someone who will appreciate them. I love my tools and I love my guns. I guess this makes it twice as difficult. I will have to do some more pondering over this delemma.
Rick
PS: thanks for givivg me more to worry about than the economy!!!!!!
I would hope that my wife would leave my shop intact if she could afford it.
When my two sons come home, they often have projects to work on for their kids or wives. Their daughters like spending time in the shop playing with the scrapes as my kids did.
My daughter spends time in the shop for inspiration. She has done much of the drawings for the carvings for shop window and door arrangments. Her husband just home from Iraq express' intrest in woodworking also.
The shop sits in my wife's gardens which is were my wife spends her time. http://www.superwoodworks.com/Cindy/index.htm
It just seems that it would be ashame to destroy the things that bring the family together.
http://www.superwoodworks.com
Garry,
WOW, I looked at those photos of your home and your wife's garden. You life in an idyllic setting. Excellent. Very beautiful. I see why you would like to preserve the shop. I hope that happens. That was an impressive post.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks Mel,
If you are ever passing through, stop by for a visit.
Garryhttp://www.superwoodworks.com
Garry,
"If you are ever passing through, stop by for a visit."
Certainly will do. Same for you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm quite a few years away from turning off the tablesaw for good (hopefully), but this is indeed an interesting thread.
First thought: My wife already has instructions to bury my favorite Lie-Nielsen with me.
Second thought: The most treasured tools I own aren't the fancy bandsaw or the SCMS with the laser guide. They're the tap & die set that was my grandfather's- as well as his coping saw, his drafting set, and a small box of assorted hand tools that he used on his journey from apprentice to master machinist. When he died, his hand tools were parsed out among the family. Each of us ended up with a fair number of hand tools. The larger power tools were given to family members who lived close enough to get them home.
I appreciate the thought that tools are valuable in monetary terms. In the long run, though, the couple thousand dollars she'd get from optimizing my tool sales won't be as important. She'll keep one of my hand planes, and whatever shavings are on the floor in the shop when I pass. The kids can parse out the other tools, and after that... who cares..."Honey, will you please make some sawdust and track it across the carpet?"
"Yes, dear..."
Old Saw,
Great message. It is the tools from our fathers and grandfathers and other relatives that are the most precious, and money has nothing to do with it. Others in the thread have talked about this also. I also agree that I want my Lie Nielsens to go with me.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
All,
A dear patient of mine, used to make reproductions for Williamsburg, had to go into the nursing home. He sold me what was left of his shop.Before he died I had him over for dinner. I had put a new top on his bench, sharpened his tools and had all the rust off and everything polished up. He was very glad to see all of his stuff in one place in good condition in the hands of someone who was going to use it intelligently. "I am glad I didn't sell it at some yard sale to some a@# h!@e who'd end up opening paint cans with my chisels".
I hope to leave all my stuff in a similar fashion to my Sonny Boy . Actually, it is all in my will. I hope my furniture will saty in the family and not get peddaled off.
Frank
You can open paint cans with chisels?That never occurred to me...I have to go try that, now.
I am now getting on for my 76th Birthday. Among other occupations I worked as a carpenter in some of my younger years.
I am in possession of tools that I have collected and used over the last 50 years or more, cost to replace them in the region of £12000.00.
I have a daughter and two sons and five grandchildren, of them all, only my eldest son has any interest in woodworking, so the contents of my workshop is destined for him, I know he will use them to best of his ability and as he handles them , he will always remember the things we used to do together when he was a young lad, he is 47 now.
The only problem he will have is getting them all to his home on the west coast of Ireland, but one problem he will not have is space, he lives in a 19th century farmhouse with two and a half acres of land
Hoping for more days in my workshop.
Regards
Denny
Edited 3/10/2009 11:12 pm ET by dennyk
Denny,
You have a lot of woodworking ahead of you. Enjoy it, and enjoy your tools. Maybe your son can build a nice outbuilding to use as a shed and to take good care of your tools. He has the land to do it. Sounds like you are a great guy and you have a great set of tools. Thanks for writing.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
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