Replies

1. 
   mrbird90 | Oct 25, 2009 06:08am | #1

   I recently made some face farmes were the stiles were 110" x 4" x 3/4" and I started with 4/4 poplar.  Most boards finished up at 3/4" but several boards had enough bow in them that the jointing operation to get one side flat resulted in boards not finishing up at 3/4". I ended up going to my supplier and getting several 5/4" boards this time and they all cleaned up at 3/4". If you don't have any bow you should be ok. Also your length is shorter than mine was.

   
   

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   Edited 10/24/2009 11:09 pm ET by mrbird90

2. 
   bones | Oct 25, 2009 04:39pm | #2

   Don, as a hobbist all I can do is share my experience and what I do.  I was taught that balance was key and wood selection.  If the piece needs to be be really strait i.e. rail and stiles of doors, ensure you use QS.   If the board in the rough shows signs of cup, it will have issues and I realize I will need to flatten and if 3/4" is required, I'd definately go minimum 5/4" rough.  I let wood aclimate to it's surroundings prior to use, and develop a relationship with a supplier.  That last one is key.    I will find someone good and stick with them even if their price is a bit more.   The pennies you save by walmarting someone can come back to bite you.  I'll generally buy my rough stuff and let it set stickered in the shop for a couple weeks minimum if possible.  Allow for issues and get more than you need.  I like cherry and tend to work with that more than anything else and get about 25% more than I need for a reserve so to speak for uh oh's or as I call them sudden unplanned design changes.  I will take a piece from the stack and mill it flat & square and watch it for a few days and put back on my TS bed to see if she's movin.  If not I'll move to real parts.  

   When I mill (first pass) This was what I was taught and follow. I flatten one side make one edge perpindicular to that edge, plane the second face parallel to the jointed side, and finally rip the final edge parallel to the jointed edge.  I go a tad wide on the measurements. 

   I do this for two reasons.  One is balance If you only remove stock from part of the piece uneven moisture release will cause uneven wood movement.  I sticker and leave at least a week.  At that point I'll shave of the final amount and be ready to go.  Every now and then, a piece might move a bit cup, twist, or whatever and I'll use that little extra to save it.  If it moves a lot I put it to the side.  If you get a board that moves a lot, I'd not use it, it could wreck your day.   If I were to get a lot of that, it would go back to the supplier and he'd make it right or I would find another supplier.  Most of the time you will need a small piece here or there and it will be consumed.   I tend to work with 5/4" mostly because I just like thicker stuff. If plans call for 3/4" I'll bump it up to 1" or 7/8" depending how much I had to take off.  If I have to mill a bit more, my piece suddenly will become 3/4" and I'll go with that.  In my early day's I'd by 4/4" and mill and suddenly it would come up a bit shy of 3/4" maybe 11/16" or so.  I'd fret about it stress and even try to make some parts work that I should not have.  I saved a lot more in angst, by spending a bit more for a little thicker wood.  Now I try to buy my wood seperate of a particular project. 

   Untill I recently moved (not replaced my old supplier yet) I would stop by and help him unload the kiln and he would make me a deal.  I bought a couple hundred feet of herringbone oak and cherry that way. It's a mix of 5/4" and 4/4" and 8/4".  Parts that call for less than 3/4" come form the 4/4" stuff.  Now I'm covered for what comes my way.  My latest project a couple wine cabinets are basically coming from that wood pile.  Good luck and over time you will find what works best for you, but don't feel you are locked into that 3/4" thing.  I don't know who wrote that law into the universe anyway.  I've yet to have someone say you did not make that 3/4" thick, it's only 11/16" or it's 1" thick!  Have a good one. 

   I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.
   George Burns

3. 
   JeffHeath | Oct 25, 2009 05:14pm | #3

   As stated, stock selection is critical if you are buying your wood rough saw, which is the only way to get good results, imho.

   When I mill 4/4 stock, I always leave an extra 1/8", so the boards are really 9/8" in the rough. This is the stock I generally use for making all my mouldings with. I typically use 7/8" finished thickness for my work in cabinetmaking instead of 3/4". Because of this, I always start with 5/4 rough stock, which gives me plenty of material to work with.

   If you aren't able to get 5/4 stock from your current supplier, then look around. The sawmilling business is hurting badly right now due to the economy, and small sawmill shops will give you whatever size and shape stock you need, within reason of course. You should probably even save a $1 or $2 per board foot vs. the typical retail lumber yard.

   Jeff

4. 
   Don01 | Oct 25, 2009 06:05pm | #4

   Don,
   Its like buying fruit and vegetables. You have no idea where it came from, there are no real standards, so some days you have to go away with nothing.
   You need to inspect each board and assess its quality. Sometimes you are looking into a new lift and can quickly determine that the entire lift is not worth buying. This does open the door to challenging the grade and sometimes you can get a discount.

   "But if a rough board starts out noticeably curled and/or cupped and/or twisted, a lot of wood is lost during the process."

   You pay the same for a straight flat board as you do for one that isn't. Why buy one that is not to your standard? This applies to a $2.00 2X4 or a $50.00 slab of teak.

   "I'd hate to waste 6/4 rough when it wasn't necessary."

   If you have to do this, you could try cutting off this slices and selling them as veneer if the material is decent. You certainly do not want to spend all day planing.

   "..is it generally safe to assume that thicker rough lumber is generally flatter than thinner rough lumber of the same species.."

   In my experience no. Wood is wonderful but there are no material standards. Most trees are designed to be long flexible cylinders. When that cylinder is cut into flat boards the physical forces release a lot of stress. As you noted, lane off a bit and let it sit.
   I did some work with lyptus. I found it to be quite uniform and stable. I later bought a 8/4 piece and cut it into part for a night table. Let the piece for the top sit for a long time. I glued up the top and let it sit while I worked on the frame. I was away from home for a good part of 2008, but when I finally got back to the top, all 4 pieces had cupped significantly. I will have to cut them in half re glue and try again. All of the other parts I cut from that same plank have retained their shape. Go figure.

   Don

1. 
   DonStephan | Oct 25, 2009 06:46pm | #5

   Thanks for the responses.  The wholesalers of rough lumber here do not have provision for picking through their stock.  They deal in volume.  When I need to order say 150 bd feet I get a good price but the lumber is a mix of everything in the stack. 

   I guess the solution is to order 200% of what I need, rather than the 150% I've been ordering, plan to make kindling out of 10%, and give up some very valuable workshop space for storage of leftovers for small projects.

1. 
   bones | Oct 25, 2009 11:57pm | #8

   Don, I'd seriously look for another supplier. If you are forced to take bulk and not pick or approve the lot, I'd expect that the load would be good and the deal would stand by it!  If that is not the case, you are not getting a deal!  Go to wood zone and woodweb to find some one that will.  You don't mention the type of wood you like, but I'm positive you can find someone that will treat you right.  Customers these days are precious things and generally will be worth keeping.  I know of several that give breaks at 125,  200+ BF orders.  If you factor in shipping to you, and the wood is all good, and you burn 25% of what your getting now, I'd be curious to see what's actually cheaper.  TM2CWI was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns

5. 
   Lataxe | Oct 25, 2009 06:57pm | #6

   Don,

   Here are some experiences that may be relevant:

   After planing from rough to smooth, boards often flip-flop shape-wise for a while - if they were a little too juicy when got from your source and are still busy acclimatising to a dryer atmosphere.  I once watched some 4/4 ash board flip-flop (bow and cup) for a month, as I turned them over every 24 hours.  The up-side would dry a bit more than the down-side; then vice-versa after they were turned.  Happily they all ended up without significant cup, once down to the 11% moisture content that is "house-norm" in most of Britain.

   Cup is more serious than bow when edge-joining boards to make a panel or top.  In fact, the longer and thinner the boards, the less bow matters.  There is a flattening-effect when joining several of them into a panel then tying it down to the underside of a table or inside the frame of a panel.  Long, thin boards with a slight bow need less force to make them go flat.  Not so with cup, of course.

   The same is true of twist (wind), if it's very minor - it can be pulled out by flat adjacent boards in the panel and/or tying to the rest of the piece.  But a lot of wind is impossible to twist out, even in a long thin board, by tying it down to the table undercarriage or in  the panel.  The twist can even distort the undercarriage or panel.

   ***

   One problem is that "interesting" grain often means that the wood is likely to warp in some way because the interest is caused by gyrating or otherwise dancing grain.  Straight-grained stuff is better behaved (as is quarter-sawn, which even "straightens" the rings of the tree) but it's often boring to look at.

   I get free wood that is often rejected to that status because to buyer knows it's wild grain will be problematic.  As its free, I can afford to waste a fair amount to get a decent board out of a thick lump.  Even then, some thick boards that seem to start flattish exhibit mad amounts of bow, twist and cup when resawn, as the internal forces of their wild grain is set free.

   When you're buying, you have a choice between bland straight grain with reduced waste (because of easy preparation) or more interesting stuff with potentially more waste from the prep.  What does your cabinet demand?

   Lataxe 

    

6. 
   Sawdust4real | Oct 25, 2009 07:37pm | #7

   Going after the wider pieces are the best option for tops , will have to be kiln dried , allowing them to acclamate in your shop is also good before sizing down to final thickness . When installing , secure @ center point along length and allow for movement at sides....wood will always move , allowing it in a controlled manner is the goal.

7. 
   mrbird90 | Oct 26, 2009 04:35am | #9

   If you live in the Cincinnati area, the Willis lumber company in Washington Court house is an excellent source and they will take back any boards not to your satisfaction. I have bee dealing with them since 1972. Free delivery with 500 bd.ft order.

1. 
   DonStephan | Oct 28, 2009 03:24am | #20

   Bones and MrBird90:

   Thanks for the replies, sorry I was not more clear.  The rough lumber is about as flat as I had hoped, given that rough lumber is never going to be dead flat.  But the same one degree "kink" (for example) in the middle of a 3' board and a 7' board is going to require more passes through the jointer on the latter board, and hence more loss.  From now on, I think I'll order an extra quarter of rough thickness when the needed length is 6' or more, and perhaps an extra two quarters of rough thickness when the wood is poplar, sycamore, and elm (see post below).

8. 
   DHAM | Oct 26, 2009 04:25pm | #10

   In my experience as a sawyer, I find that thicker stock tends to dry straighter (I only air dry).  However, if there is stress in the board or if the board is not dry and you plane it down or re-saw it, that stress can be released resulting in a warp/bow/cupp problem.  Therefore, I never recommend cutting and drying thick planks with the intent to re-saw to a thinner size to get finished 3/4 stock.  Better to start with a 4/4 or 5/4 board that does not demonstrate any major issues before planing because that will generally lead to good results if you take proper care of the wood after planing. 

   When wood moves after planing, it is because there is a change in the equilibrium moisture content since the wood moisture is not in equilibrium with the temperture and humidity of the environment it is in.  Since it is rare that a board that you buy and bring home is in perfect equilibrium with your shop, acclimitization like you point out is important. 

   Moisture content is one of the things that can make me pull my hair out!

9. 
   philip_r | Oct 26, 2009 07:51pm | #11

   Don, as a practice, short boards flatten easily and you can easily use 4/4 material.  This is why you should rough cut everything to approximate length before you start your milling process.

   However, as you discovered, long boards take more work to get truly flat.  As a result, you should have gone with 6/4 - 5/4" is cutting it close.  The cost difference is minimal.  

   Myself, I would have gone with 6/4 and shot for a finished thickness of 1".  An 84" table is pretty big and (IMHO) should have a 1" thick top.

10. 
    SgianDubh | Oct 26, 2009 11:08pm | #12

    I think others have just about covered the essentials Don,  but knowing when to buy the next thickness has to be judged on a case by case basis.

    You are, or were, looking to finish a quite long table top at 3/4" thick. At that length I'd almost certainly go for 1-1/4" (5/4) or even 1-1/2" (6/4) thick stuff to ensure I got the desired end thickness at widths of about 6" or more. Of course it also depends on how straight and flat the wood is at the time of purchase, assuming you can select your own material. If it's pretty good at the purchase stage you might judge you can get what you want out of 1" material. If you can't, move up a thickness. If you are buying sight unseen as the planks fall off the pile you are probably wise to buy thicker again stuff.

    On the other hand if none of your parts for a project need to be no more than about 4' or 4' 6" it's likely you'll get 3/4" out of 1" material. Still, it's often the case that a finished size of 22 mm (7/8") looks better than 18 mm (3/4") so even here you might be better off starting with rough sawn 1-1/4" stuff.

    So, in the end, the answer is, "It depends... " Slainte.

    richardjonesfurniture.com

1. 
   DonStephan | Oct 27, 2009 02:46am | #13

   Always good to hear from you Richard.  Hope the lads and lassies appreciate their teacher.  Still wandering about the rugby field?

   Thanks all.  In the future, I think about 6' length will be where I routinely increase the rough thickness.   I was hoping for a final thickness of 7/8" (sometimes 4/4 actually starts out a bit fatter) but maybe not.  The boards have had three days to "unwind" since initial flattening and still look very straight, maybe I'll get lucky.  Maybe someone will give me a winning lottery ticket, too.

   Any particular species of wood that are on average more crooked?

1. 
   DHAM | Oct 27, 2009 04:19pm | #17

   As for crooked wood, the species with spiral or interlocked grain can be very difficult to work with.  These species are sweetgum, sycamore, elm, hackberry, and blackgum.  I also find the hickories and pecan prone to warp in drying.

1. 
   DonStephan | Oct 28, 2009 03:14am | #18

   DHAM:

   Thanks for the list of difficult woods.  Just so happens I'd like to make another piece someday out of quartered sycamore, hopefully I'll remember to keep the item simple and the pieces short.

11. 
    ted | Oct 27, 2009 02:52am | #14

    I can usually minimize the effects of cup, twist, warp, boe, etc. by cutting material to rough length first. For instance if a board is bowed or twisted 1/2" over 6' it can be halved if it is plit into two 36" pieces and instead of removing up to an inch total to flatten a 6' board you'd remove half that amount.

1. 
   DonStephan | Oct 27, 2009 03:07am | #15

   I do the same.  No reason to flatten the entire length if not needed.

1. 
   bones | Oct 27, 2009 03:35pm | #16

   I generally do the same but I discovered that sometimes I would cut a board (in the rough) and finish down only to find I cut through a remendous grain pattern that was not visible in the rough.  After I got my 12" jointer and ran a full 7' board across It gave me the option to better utilize my stock.  I now use a bit more wood, but the quality improved.  I still cut down most stock to samller pieces prior to final finish.   I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns

1. 
   DonStephan | Oct 28, 2009 03:17am | #19

   Glad you thought to mention a detail I overlooked.  I've also started making one or two passes of the full length boards ("skip" jointing?) to see just enough to get a sense of the grain in the board.  Then I'm more comfortable rough cutting pieces perhaps 6" longer than needed, and beginning the flattening process.