what type of sander is most useful?
hi all,
about 6 months ago, i decided i wanted to upgrade my skills from a DIY level of carpentry to “real woodworking.” my goal is to be able to build furniture for my family; so, i’ve taken a bunch of classes and read a lot of books and magazines, and have been slowly building up my (garage-based) shop. i have a pretty good tool collection at this point, but the one area conspicuously absent is sanding machines. up to now, i’ve been using hand sanding, or portable power tools (ROS, 1/3 pad sander and fein multimaster).
with the usual limitations on space and money, i’m trying to decide whether to get a machine sander, and if so which sander to get first. i have used drum, belt/disk, and oscillating sanders in my classes. although (in class) we use the drum sander most often for thicknessing/finishing. my planer has a finishing speed which seems to do well enough that i’ve been leaning more towards a belt/disk sander or an oscillating sander. so, what do you use?
i would be most grateful for any suggestions (including “stick to hand sanding” if that’s your opinion). thanks in advance,
bert
Replies
You can't get a great finish with just one.. I use a belt sander and two random action sanders each fitted witha differant grit of paper. doing a small amount of sanding I belt then DA and then DA with the next finer grit, I then pull off the sand paper and put on the next two finer grits..
I stop at normally 220 but on occasion I will go all the way to 1000 grit..
hi frenchy,
thanks for your response.right now, i'm doing something just like what you describe: ROS with 80, 120, 150, 180, and 220 for finishing. then hand sanding with block and 220 to make sure the scratches are out, using mineral spirits to check. then, my first two coats of finish, wet-sanding the 2nd with 320 to make a slight slurry to fill the grain (and mistakes). then, the third coat, and finally the poly.i hadn't really thought of using a belt sander for finishng, but you've given me the idea to try it in place of a drum sander...thanks,
bertif it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
DrChops,
I've recently found a new love, rather than polyuerathane I use shellac.. it's a wonderfully rich finish without the plastic look or dull look of "satin" poly.
Plus any mistakes and you wipe alcohol on it and they go away! If you get scratches you rub a rag damp with alcohol and it too disappears! You can do this magic if the scratch is 15 minutes old, 15 years old, or 50 years old! The shiney gloss disappears when you french polish it a few times or you can just get a dust rag full of dust and mute the shine right away! (the dust leaves micro scratches in the shellac and that mutes the shine..
I love the fact that if you spray it you can touch it in ten minutes and 45 minutes later it's ready for sanding or it's next coat..
It turns finishing from a dreaded chore to a quick final flourish!
This probably should be posted under finishing, but you mentioned that you prefer shellac over polyurethane. Age old question I suppose, but does shellac "yellow" with age more than polyurethane?
Thanks.
no it stays clear.please excuse my spelling.
Ardmore,
Both tend to age, but when the poly is aged your solution is to sand.. when shellac is aged you wipe it with denatured alcohol and it disolves leaving the wood undamaged by a sander..
I have learned to really hate sanding and thus I'm willing to work with shellac more than I might have to work with Polyeurathane..
You can minimise the need for working if the wood can be kept out of sunlite (it's the UV lite that causes both to yellow..
I don' t know of any finish that is totally free of vices, those that are durable tend to be terribly taxic and hard to remove when then do need removal. More natural finishes like shellac are easier to work with and easier to remove.. They on the other hand seem to have less "plastic" in themselves and wind up neededing more maintinance..
Dr.,
I've accumulated an assortment of sanders over the years starting with a 1/4 pad sander and belt sander, then an ROS. Last year, I added a 12" disk sander and an OSS. A few weeks ago, I bought a 16-32 drum sander. I use them all, depending on the operation. Now that I have this assortment, I'd rather not try to work without them.
Having said that, I rarely use the belt sander but when it's called for, nothing else will do. Now that I have the drum sander, I probably use it more than any other. Next in line would be the OSS, but there are times the disk sander gets more attention. Sound confusing? Well, add to this a Dremel with sanding attachments and you've got even more.
The bottom line is: the task at hand will dictate what type of sander is of greatest use. I usually build furniture pieces but right now I'm doing some cutesy candle holders at the request of my lovely wife. Also, I've begun to shift my sanding schedule a bit by machine sanding to 150 or 180 grit, then hand sanding with a block to 220 or beyond.
For most finishes, sanding to 180 is far enough. That leaves a surface for the finish to grab. If you're planning a hand-rubbed oil finish, then you need to go to 220, 320 or even higher depending on the material and its characteristics.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
hi bill,
thanks for your advice. eventually, i plan to get an OSS, belt/disk combo, and a drum sander, but for now, i think i'll take your advice and wait for the task to dictate what i should buy. i have an ROS, 1/3 pad, 3x21 belt, multimaster, and a dremel, and i think i'll get an oscillating attachment for my drill press, and then wait to see what i can't do with with i have. :-)you said you machine sand to 180, and then hand sand to 220+, depending. do you start the hand sanding with 180, or do you find that starting at 220 gets out the machine marks?i generally use 3 coats of watco danish oil, so i go to 220, and wet sand the middle coat with 320 to slurry fill, and that seems to come out nicely.thanks again,
bertif it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
"... you said you machine sand to 180, and then hand sand to 220+, depending. do you start the hand sanding with 180, or do you find that starting at 220 gets out the machine marks? ..."
The project dictates how I sand. If I'm using the ROS, I'll jump from 150 to 220; that will eliminate machining marks. Depending on how it looks, I might also block sand with 220 by hand. I don't ever start with 220; likewise, I don't find it necessary to start with 80 either. With careful jointing and planing, I typically need nothing more than 150, then 220 with the ROS. When using the drum sander, I've been getting great results cleaning up resaw with 180, then finishing the piece with 220 on the ROS.
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Hand sanders: PC 333 (not variable speed), PC 340 Speed-bloc, large Bosch (6.5 amp) ros, varable speed, small Makita 1/4 sheet. The PC 333 probably gets used the most for finish work, the PC 340 next, when doing panels on cabinets. The big Bosch doesn't get used much since the arrival of the Performax 16-32 a year ago.
Floor sanders: Performax 16-32, greatest thing since sliced bread, especially for truing up rails & stiles, doing inlay work, smoothing highly figured wood. Grizzly G0529 1 hp combination spindle/12" disc. Smooth, powerful, replaces the Craftsman Professional 6x48 belt/9" disc sander that was a vibrating piece of crap. I never used the belt. The Grizzly replaced a 9" vibrator sander (the craftsman) and allowed me to stop using my Shop Fox drill press which had an oscillating feature that was much too light for my work. Love the Performax and Grizzly.
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
hi alan,
thanks for your response. i too have the pc 333 which gets a lot of action, and the 340 which i've used on face frames and panels, though i've only done a few cabinets. i do detail sanding with a multimaster and that seems to come out pretty well.the one place where i think i might really need another sander is for curved pieces that come off the bandsaw. i'm doing them with the multimaster currently, but i think i'll get an oscillating attachment for my drill press and try that before going to a dedicated machine. i hadn't realized grizzly makes a disc/OSS combo; if the DP/OSS route doesn't work out, then i'll definitely give it a look.i hadn't thought about planing highly figured wood, but i can see that smoothing figure wood is best left to a sander. from everything i've read, the 16-32 is the one to get, so that's what i've had my eye on...thanks again,
bertif it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
I wouldn't go out and buy a sanding machine just to have one. Most sanding machines have certain purposes and they may not even be applicable for what you need. With most tools, I think you you are best to buy ones that will do the job that you need done. In my shop, I primarily use a ROS, belt sander and a spindle sander. All machine sanders leave their marks which often have to be hand sanded out. A portable belt sander is good for rapid removal on straight flat surfaces and some outside curves, ROS for more gentle flat surface sanding and spindles for inside curves. You can use spindles in a hand held drill, drill press or have a dedicated machine. When you get into drum, profile, stroke and edge sanders, you need to spend some money and have adequate dust collection. Worry about those when you turn pro and the work load warrants them.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
hi hammer,
thanks for your response. at this point, i'm basically doing my sanding with and ROS and multimaster for details. (i have other sanders which i don't use as often.) i think i will get an osciallting attachment for my drill press, for curved pieces made on the bandsaw. otherwise, i'll take your advice and wait to see what i need.btw, dust collection was the first thing i got set up, a 1 1/2 hp cartridge system which i move from tool to tool, and a 1 hp air cleaner hung from the ceiling. for sanding, i hook the DC to a downdraft table, and hook my sander up to a shop vac (with HEPA filter -- no sense just blowing the sanding dust around the room :-). the combination seems to work pretty well.thanks again,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
I am a serious hobbyist and have a dual-head drum sander and except for occasional thicknessing of panel doors and slab glue-ups, it it is a little used machine since the pieces still have to be cleaned up with a 4 x 24 belt sander and/or the ROS and scrapper. If cabinet-making isn't a business for you but you have aspirations in this direction, I would suggest you take the money you would spend on a floor sander and use it to buy some first-class hand tools and then practice with them until you are proficient. I wish someone had given me this advise earlier. I am not against power tools and, albeit late in life, I am learning that I now know more about wood by using hand tools, and I am better able to know when to use the right tool, power or otherwise, to get the best result.
Seriously, If you still want a 5hp 25" dual drum sander in great condition with several hundred dollars of roll paper, let me know: I have my eye of some new hand planes and chisels. I am in the Dallas, TX area.
Doug
Edited 4/9/2005 10:02 am ET by Doug
I'm with the hammer on this one; stationary sanders are in that category of "nice to have, but not essential."But if you are moving in that direction, there are four basic types to choose from: oscillating, disc, belt, and drum. Which one you get (and which size) eally depends on the type of work you want to do with it. Heck, why don't you get all four, and then you won't have to make a decision..........
hi nikki,
thanks for your advice. everyone seems to be in agreement with you. i guess i was wondering if was overlooking something by deciding not to get stationary sanders right away. my shop size is not very big (about 14' square), and i'd like to have some room for me and some wood. :-)
thanks again,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
hi doug,
thanks for your advice. i do have some first-class hand tools, 3 good planes (low angle block, smoothing, and jack), a good set of chisels, and 2 nice japanese saws. early on, i was told i should learn how to hand cut joints before learning to cut them with power tools, and so i did. i've learned a lot about wood and grain that way, so it was good advice. moreover, if i get a board wider than my jointer, i wanted to be able to flatten it by hand. i'm still not as good as i want to be with hand tools: my hand work looks ok, but it takes a lot longer than with power tools... i haven't much tried following machining with hand planing in the cleanup phase, just sanding.so, i think i'll try your advice of hand planing as the first stage of cleanup, but otherwise, stay with my current sanding methods (ROS, detail sander, sand paper over wood block or cylinder). i might also add an oscillating attachment for my drill press.but, if i ever need a 25" drum sander, i'll check back with you.
thanks again,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
I have multiple hand sanders from straight line finishing to palm ROS. All get used at one time or another. I find that I use the PC 332 with a Fein vacuum for most of my sanding.
A caution on the hand held sanders to watch that you don't round over edges. I will typically stop short of the edge and do that portion with sanding blocks. Easy to do if you keep multiple sanding blocks with different grits on hand.
I have a Performax 16/32 and use that extensively. As much for flattening or dimensioning as for true sanding. Since the rollers have far less tension than a planer you can use it remove bow or cupping that a planer can't. It will also dimension highly figured woods like quilted maple that get chewed up by a planer.
One comment on the drum sander; it isn't adequate for "final" sanding since it leaves minute score lines down the board. When using it for true sanding I will use a 220 grit belt and then use a ROS or straight line sander to back off to 180 and then redo the 220. The scratches from the drum sander are very small but definitely visible after finish is applied.
I also have a 12" disc sander that I use fairly often. It is very nice for minute corrections on mitered corners or shortening peices in very very small increments.
The hand helds are almost a must, but I would get rid of those before I unloaded the drum sander! I build inlaid jewelery boxes and othe nick knacks using highly figured woods that a jointer or planer can't process.
hi bryan,
thanks for your response. at this point, hand helds are what i have. i sometimes hide glue lines with beads or grooves, and roundover would definitely defeat the purpose.ironically, yesterday i was working on a parquet top with some inlay for a plant stand, and realized i wasn't going to be able to finish that with my planer. i did one side with hand planes, 1/3 pad sander and ROS. then, i took the piece over to my local woodshop (where i take classes), and for a couple dollars, i could borrow their drum sander for an hour. i have a new appreciation for drum sanders now... :-) of course, i still had to clean up the drum sander marks, but it was lot easier getting a uniform surface with the drum.for now, i think i'll wait on buying stationary sanders. but, i might have to rethink my choice if i end up doing a lot of parquetry or inlay (i really only did this one just to try it -- but, it really looks cool).thanks again,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
The drum sanders are really neat tools. If you have ever made a raised panel cabinet door and it didn't turn out perfectly flat then you can appreciate the benefit of the drum sander.
As I mentioned earlier, I work a lot of highly figured wood that just can't go through the jointer, planer, and won't accept a hand plane because the grain changes direction over very small areas (like quilted maple). The only way I've found to flatten or take it to final dimension consistently without chipping is to use the drum sander.
If you can rent it for an hour for a few dollars then I wouldn't be in a hurry to rush out and buy one!
I'm in the process of building 12 very large bookcases for a library and I run all the face frame stock through the drum sander (after the planer). As you found out, this isn't adequate for final sanding but takes a lot of the tedious work out of the job. With the oak I run the drum at 220 and then finish with a straight line sander at one grit, 180, then call it quits.
Bryan
hi all,
many thanks for your resonses to my question. you have confirmed my thought that i should continue with hand sanding (wood block or hand power tool) until i really need a stationary sander (or one for benchtop, since shop space is tight). ... or until there's an unbelievable sale at woodcraft that i can't ignore. :-)
i'll try to respond to each of you individually, but until i do, let me say "thanks."
cheers,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Edited 4/13/2005 10:47 am ET by DrChops
Chops,
For what it's worth, I use to be a sanding junkie, but have changed my ways to hand planes, spoke shave, molding planes and scrapers. Less dust, less noise, in most cases faster and the quality of finish is far better.
While the sound made and the finish left, of a well tuned hand plane becomes addictive as a bonus, to me the difference between using well tuned hand tools opposed to sanding, compares to riding a motorcycle, as opposed to a bicycle.
First a 5" ROS that is the work horse of the small shop. Get a good one the Bosch and Ridgid are great choices. Both have to orbital modes for more agressive removal or finer finish. The a very close second or probably even before the ROS is an assortment of sanding blocks and profile sanders (AKA tadpoles). I have 10 or so rubber blocks and keep them loaded with different gritts. I have a helper in my shop so everything is doubled up. The profile sanders are very necessary to remove router or shaper machining marks on mouldings and profiles. After those youll have to decide your yourself. For my shop a drum sander is more importaint that belt sander, and those combo disk and belt stationary machines seem completly useless! They sand across the grain. An oscilliting spindle sander is very usefull in my shop, but we make do with a spindle sanding drum mounted in the drill press.
Have fun,
Mike
hi mike,
thanks for the reply. i have a pc 5" ROS that i absoluetely live by; it's a fixed speed, but it does a pretty good job for finishing. then i hand sand using paper over wood blocks. i also have a pretty good collection of rubber blocks and profiles. but, recently i just got a fein multimaster, and i'm going to try that on the profiles of some raised panel doors. as you said, i'm going to give it abit to figure out which of the floor machines i need.
thanks again,
bertif it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
Sounds like you are off to a good start. I think you will likely get a OSS, good belt sander, or maybe a drum sander next. In my opinion, a drum sander is really more of a production tool, unless you do a bent laminations or make your own veneers.
Mike
please excuse my spelling.
P.S. As I said before stationary disk/belt sanders are the most over used tools in the small shop. The only usefull thing I've heard them used for is adjusting miters and sanding circles. I say it is better to cut your miters correct the first time and I have never made, or seen, a project that was round but did not have a profile cut into the edge (ie. a round over or ogee). Obviously the disk sander can't sand these profiles.
Edited 4/25/2005 12:45 pm ET by mike
what type of sander is most useful
Send it out to a finishing shop?
Sort of funnin ya but a Cabinet scraper is a little work but saves ALOT of sanding...
Edited 4/25/2005 3:39 pm ET by Will George
If you don't want to start with a drum sander, but want to be able to sand things like glued up flat panels (for examplle, I often get slight misalignments no matter how many clamps and cauls I use especially on big glue ups or with wood that has "reacclimated" to some warped form after planing), try a belt sander with a sanding shoe. I have the Makita 9903 variable speed 21" and its matching sanding shoe. The shoe turns a hog into a finesse tool by allowing you to set the aggressiveness/depth of cut, keep the sanding flat over the wide shoe base, and eliminate the threat of gouges even at the edges of the glue-up. Just my two cents.
Will,
Couldn't agree more. On any of my furniture grade work a steel tool is always the last thing to touch the wood, NOT SAND PAPER. Usually it is a card scraper, sometimes a hand plane. If you ever compair a 320 or 400 grit sanded surface to a freshly scraped surface you will see the amazing difference.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
If you can justify it, get a Performax 16/32, or their newer 10" model. You will absolutely love that machine. One clue, though, you MUST run dust collection on them, or dust will load the abrasive almost immediately.
one of the most usefull tools in my shop is a Delts sanding station with a 6" disc sander and a belt. I use that thing for so many small details. When I broke a belt on it once and had to send away for a new one I was like a lost child because I got so used to using it
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
hi cherryjohn,
thanks for the reply. on your disk/belt combo, i assume you meant a 12" disk, so that 6" is usable. i've been looking at the delta 31-300 and the 31-735A. both are 12" disk with 6x48" belt combos. how's the dust collection on your sander? i've heard that combos have a problem with DC. also, i've heard that it's hard to use the belt for finishing because of too much cross-grain sanding. can you comment on that?my problem is the typical one: limited floor space in the shop. so, i've been looking at benchtop as well as floor units. i've heard the benchtop units aren't very useful for finishing because they vibrate too much. do you know anything about this?
thanks for your help,
bert
if it's worth doing at all, then it's worth doing well.
I started this out with a description of what sanding station I use and how I set up for dust collection and then I figured it would be easier to just show you
The first pic shows the rigid section of Shop Vac hose clamped in my vise on one of my work benches. This set up takes care of a vast majority of the dust generated with the disc. the second pic shows how its is mounted when I use the curved part of the belt sander; something I use a lot for radius sanding. The third pic shows how the hose is connected to the dust port when I use the flat side of the belt sander. The fact that the belt sander does leave marks makes it lousy for any finish work. I have a Random orbit sander and a finish sander for that job. The random orbit sander takes the piece to a point where I can then attach a 1/3 sheet of sand paper to the finish sander and take the final job to about 220 grit mostly. Of the 2 sanders I find myself using that little disc sander mostly. I build windsor chairs and I use the disc to make the tapered tennons that are needed on the tops of the legs. If I need to make wedges for any reason ( sometimes to fill voids where I didn't do such a good job) I use that disc sander. Come to think of it I use it to make a lot of wedges to fill voids where I didn't do such a good job! Oh well............. For about $100 the sanding station has been indispensable.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
My portable sander arsenal includes Makita 5" ROS, Bosch 5" ROS, PC 1/4 sht palm, Makita 1/4 sht palm, Bosch 4 x 24 Belt w/ opt. frame, Harbor Freight no name Cho-Cho type in-line, Fein Multimaster, PC Profile Sander and a Dremel. Stationary sanders include a Rigid combo oscillating 4x24 belt/spindle and an old Rockwell 6x48 vertical B/S. They all get used fairly frequently, except for the PC Profile Sander which is a total pice of s*it. At the top of my wish list is a Performax ShopPro 25 drum sander for removing mill marks and precision thicknessing of plys for bent lamination work.
I have other sanders that will take out the mill marks but at 49 I'm trying to conserve my hands and prolong my ability to enjoy wood working for another 30 years. Despite successful carpal tunnel surgery I have residual nerve damage and am sensitive to vibration and impact. A day of sanding = 3 days of numbness. Using a friend's ShopPro I can minimize the RO sanding down to one pass with 180 and one with 220 after raising the grain.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I have a Sunhill widebelt for surfacing (sometimes after planing) and use it for all kinds of piece prep. it does not replace my orbital DA sander or hand sanding. Edges are best done with (you guessed it) an edge sander. The Sunhill was 6K in the 15 hp model and the edge sander is $1200. Orbitals of various stripe are a couple hundred or so and all the hand implements, some of them shop, made make for a large investment in abrasives and machinery. But, you know wood, it likes to sanded. Buy tools as you need them rather than as a "want" item and you dont really feel it and they are there as you develop your skills to assist in the next learning process
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