If the professionals out there don’t want to share this info. with me I will totally understand but I will ask anyway. It is my intention to put a few pieces in local galleries to make some additional income. (My house and office are full so if I’m going to keep building, they have to go somewhere.) So the question is: “what sells?”. My thought is pricing between $500.00 and $800.00. Shaker, mission, whatever. Thanks in advance. PMM
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Replies
There is no single and easy answer. Each area and gallery have a niche. What sells good in one area might not sell in another. Well made would be a selling point. Make what you like as you should enjoy doing the work. What could you be making to sell for that price range? Galleries get 50% typically.
If you're dealing with a reputable and quality gallery, and they agree to handle your work, they will be able to tell you what sells. If they cannot tell you, then I wouldn't waste my time with them.
PS It's not so easy to get a "good" gallery interested in one's work.
I agree with Rick. Good craftsmanship never goes out of style. Build what YOU like and it will show in your work.
Paul
PMM,
Best of luck. It is a tough world out there, and it ain't fair. If there was a simple answer to your question, all of us would be running successful one-person shops. If you talk to a number of successful woodworkers, you'll find that each has put together a unique niche -- difficult to copy, and it probably wouldn't work anywhere else.
I made a, in my humble opinion, beautiful hanging cabinet out of curly maple. All joints are mortise and tenon, and it has a nice raised panel door, and it is nicely finished. A neighbor paid me a compliment the other day. He said that I should go into business, because I should be able sell those things for $50. I thanked him profusely. j
The bottom line is that you have to be able to find people who are willing to put out reasonable money for what you have. Those folks exist, but they don't walk around with flashing lights on their heads. They need to believe that they are getting something really special, and having it is something they can brag about.
Going the gallery route is one way, but you pay a healthy commission, which lessens income.
Don't go to the poor section of town. You have to find the folks with money. They tend to go in herds, and to live in herds. You can try shows. There are juried shows if your stuff is in that category. Even then, it takes a while to get a name for yourself.
Please let us know the lessons you learn.
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Chairs sell. Really nice chairs. You can triple (at least) what you were thinking of charging.
I can practically guarantee that if you become an accomplished chairmaker (all kinds - don't limit yourself to Windsors) you will have no real competition in your immediate area.
There are a ton of guys that can build a really nice cabinet piece - secretaries, high boys, you name it. But they can't/don't/won't build chairs. They can build tables for days, but not chairs to go around them.
Gotta have the whole package, IMO.
Edited 4/3/2007 6:58 am ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
I think its wrong to assume craftsmanship is a selling point. Style sells. Even making the case that your joints are materially better than someone else's is tricky. I've chosen the opposite approach (with admittedly limited success). My furniture is the cheap alternative to real pieces. The pieces on my website are all 6 and 7 figure pieces if original. As repros, they don't even hit 5 digits.
BS also sells. There are some who would like to make a joke about me right now. Truth is, this is an area I need to work on. I answer questions truthfully and talk about surfaces and construction, and other technical issues. My booth overflows with interested woodworkers, while the polite older ladies move on. George Nakashima made me remove my shoes in his temple like shop. He talked about the life inside the wood (the life he extinguished when he cut it, I guess) and really struck a chord with wealthy ex-hippies (is there any other kind?) with his free form, neo-tansu, shaker like pieces. Calling his marketing BS is wrong and vulgar of me, but I know no other term off the top of my head that fits. He very much sold something other than a place to sit. I need to take a page from his playbook. I suggest you do the same.
Adam
P.S. Maybe you should make furniture out of wood from war torn Africa- blood furniture? Conflict furniture? Perhaps your furniture is responsible for saving the rain forest? That's so 2005. Maybe its helping unlawful prisoners in Gitmo receive fair trials? Constitution furniture? I wish I were kidding. Stuff like this would sell. Organic furniture that's kind to kitties. How about that one? "Did you know that industrial toxins used in furniture manfacturing can shorten the lifespans of your companion animals? Don't kill kitty with your couch, replace your ugly, poisonous sofa with..."
Adam.
RIGHT ON, BROTHER! You used the right term. BS sells. Your description of Nakashima was an eye opener for me. I had heard his name and seen some of his furniture. Nice stuff. But not my kind of stuff. I guess that I like humble people. When I look at the world, I feel humbled. I put up a reference to Patrick Edwards the other day. His Marquetry furniture is the most beautiful furniture that I have ever imagined. It also humbles me. The more I learn, the more, it seems, that I dont know. I would not have lasted long in Nakashima's shop, from your description of him.
Your message was from the heart, and it moved me.
There is a guy about an hour from my home who sells rockers for a minimum of $5k apiece. If you'd like to come to his workshop and build one, the cost is the same. He has one rocker that seats one adult and two kids and it is $20k. From what I hear, he stays busy. Three cheers for him. Somehow he has found how to get people to come to him, and to want one of his beautiful rockers. Then they have to get in line.
He has a schtick. It is a good one. His work is magnificent. But the topic here is selling. He has found a way to get people with sufficient money to want to come to him and get one of his chairs. I wish I could figure out how he does it. As you pointed out, it's not the joinery, although his is flawless. There is something else he has been able to do, and I am not sure even he knows what he did. If he could describe it accurately, he could made far more money selling his formula for success than by selling rockers.
Ciao. A presto.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Adam and All,
" I think it's wrong to assume craftsmanship is a selling point "
Just as it's wrong to assume style sells :). It depends on the market you have targeted. I wouldn't open a Sam Maloof gallery in Tijuana. Besides, craftsmanship as a selling point was one of the reasons for the Stickley/ Green & Green/ Mission movement. Define your market and do your best.
Much success,
Paul
Edited 4/3/2007 3:52 pm ET by colebearanimals
From fine Woodworking - January/February 1979
Also see Soul of a Tree - it encompasses Nakashima's philosophy
If one has skills...
FWW: What do you say to a young person who wants to become
a woodworker?
Nakashima: "That happens so often, we have a waiting list
of maybe 300, and I say to them we aren't taking on anybody.
. . . It cost me maybe $500 a month to break in a new
man, I'm out of pocket that, and then if he goes in two years
I'm out maybe five or ten thousand dollars, and very often he
doesn't even say thank you. I'm not in that kind of position,
so I tell them the thing to do is go to some craft school like
Rhode Island, or the best is to go to Germany or Japan where
they have real apprenticeship programs, and several people
have taken me up on that.. . . There's so many of the young
wanting to do that, but it's almost all completely romantic,
they have no idea of what is involved, what they're getting
into and actually what they want.. . . Skills are maybe the
finest resources any nation can have, and we don't have that
in this country and that's why things are getting so bad. This
country prides itself on automobiles and can't even make a
decent automobile, a sad situation. Whereas if one has skills,
one could make the slums bloom with no money at all,
simply by work and skills."
I'll give you my version of what sells. It has little to do with what you're building.
YOU SELL!
The furniture doesn't sell itself. It just sits there. And, for $500 to $800 (your words), you are already selling yourself short.
Unfortunately, (and I mean this from the bottom of my heart) the difference between extreme success and a business that fails is the moxie and shtick of the salesman hawking the wares. If you don't have the gift of gab, then you'd better develop it quick, or be wealthy enough to hire someone else to do it for you.
An average craftsman with outstanding sales ability is going to succeed where a superb craftsman with no "people skills" is going to be staring at his/her own furniture for a long time, because of the inability to network and sell.
Once you get yourself in front of your target audience/clientele, and begin to make sales, you will discover, as Mel put it, an entire herd of future customers.
My customers are almost all in the same financial bracket. They love to talk about their Porsche's and Mercede's, and as soon as I deliver their new piece(s), they mention how great it will look at their next party, etc.... Well, that's a great time to ask for referrals, and offer discounts on future pieces based on referrals. I don't know about other folks, but 90% of my business comes from referrals from happy customers. They tell their friends and neighbors, who live in the same type houses as they do, drive the same Porsche's as they do, etc..... well, you get the point.
I've got lots more to add if anyone wants to read it, so I'll wait for interested replies. Otherwise, that's it for now.
Jeff
Interesting post Jeff. I was writing away in a similar vein but got cold feet and baled only to find your comments. I am not a furniture maker, but rather a designer and builder of the homes of the clients you are possibly describing and I believe I am selling "me" when a client engages me to design for them.My mentor learned his craft from Frank Lloyd Wright and there was, for lack of a better term, an arrogance to his manner when dealing with clients. In my younger years I didn't fully understand it, but from long experience I have come to recognize its value at times. Dealing with wealthy people and those who have a lot of money takes a deft touch at times and lately I have been less inclined to play the game. Then they introduce me to one of their friends and off I go again. I have often said I built my business by word of mouth...my mouth.So I agree with you, referrals and selling the client on oneself is what sells. A few weeks back I met a fellow through my partner at a function. We got chatting and he wound up inviting my girlfriend and myself over for dinner. He was proud of his home, but to my eye it was somewhat lacking. Eventually the topic turned to architecture and his home and he asked me what I thought. I wasn't looking for work, didn't think he was really looking to change anything, so I told him what I thought.To cut a long story short I suggested that the kitchen was in the wrong location, that it should, in my estimation, be looking out at the water. (this is a high bank waterfront home) Turns out he had had at least two, if not three, other architects in to look at what they could do and no one had suggested that the house was backwards, we then moved on to other parts of the house. Now he wants me to draw up plans for what is amounting to a complete redesign of his house plus a garage and studio complex with connecting breezeway. All of this because I opened my mouth and waved my arms around.I didn't know if I wanted the work. So I suggested that I wasn't available until next year. Seems he is willing to wait. Time to jack my rates again I guess ;-)Greg
Gregg,Interesting story. The guy with the house sounds like the kind of individual that I routinely work for. They are wealthy, unassuming, and want absolute honesty. This suits me well: the stuff I like to make is time consuming therefore costly, I won't work for ah-holes, and at my stage in life and profession I've learned that my happiness is directly proportional to my honest opinion and ability to give it or withhold it depending on the circumstance (honesty).Unfortunately, this is all fun to discuss, but it doesn't help out ol' pmmatty
I guess I have been involved in a hijacking. Sorry Matty/Matey ;-)GregBTW I think there is something to be said for the honesty/trust factor. I seem to spend more time trying to figure out it I want to work for an individual or couple than ever before. If I sense that they will be a PITA I'm out of there.
GW
First of all, I hope you never again get cold feet when desiring to express yourself here at the Knots. We've all had to endure the fire, and many times learning to deal with the criticism is what makes us better people. I belief whole heartedly in the statement that "if you're gonna pitch, you'd better learn to catch!!" I truly believe that I am a better and more rounded person, capable of interacting in a group in a much better way than before the days that I participated in the Knots. I have been self employed running two businesses for quite a while, and have been "in charge" of both for too long. That tends to make an individual suffer from "big fish in a small pond" syndrome, and I definately had the disease, level four, with little hope for a cure. However, when I began hanging out here, I had to learn to give and take, and learned quite a bit about myself in the process. It's not easy being wrong, after you've been "right" no matter what for 2 decades. My wife says I'm much more easy going these days. <g>
Now, back to the topic. I totally agree with your idea of avoiding the PITA type customers. I consider it to be around 35% of the importance of a first meeting with a new client. The almighty dollar cannot overcome a lifelong thorn in the paw, and losing customers like that on day one is sort of like losing cancer.
Once the individual learns to target their correct customer base, and properly work their customer's warm market for referrals, managing the business properly becomes more important than the awesome looking skinny dovetails on a drawer that no one see's, and rarely appreciates. When just getting started, introducing one's self to the local antique market can't hurt, and often brings in some side business replicating a table, or repairing a chair, only to have 4 more ordered.
I love to build furniture. However, for whatever reason, I spent that last 4 years building built-in cabinetry, fireplace mantels, and entertainment centers. Not exactly what I want to do, but it keeps the money coming in. Finally, this year, I am beginning to sell furniture commissions again. 6 weeks ago, I built and donated a hockey themed maple cocktail table for a benefit auction for a young hockey player in my area afflicted with cancer. The fine gentleman that bought it is a multi-bazillionaire (is that a word??) and immediately ordered two end tables to match. Tomorrow, I'll be depositing the deposit check he just wrote me today for my largest furniture order ever from one customer. He's hired me to build all new furniture for his lake home in Wisconsin, and just wants it done by Christmas. All because I donated a table for a good cause.
You never know where your next group of customers will come from, but if you don't work your business properly, it'll never reach it's potential. Sell yourself first, and assuming your goods are well made, they will all find a home.
That's my 10 cents worth.
Jeff
Jeff,First off, congratulations on that commission. Since I'm just winding up one of "those" jobs, I thought I'd post a couple of thoughts. For all the elation when depositing that check, it's not always roses...This job wasn't the biggest I've gotten, but big enough. Cabinets and closets for a penthouse apartment, it started out at $100,000 and along the way it grew to $150,000. But we just barely made money on it! I've had it happen to me before and it's a very difficult problem to avoid in jobs like this. The pitfalls:1. Because it's a big job you give them a healthy (and justifiable) discount for the whole package. However, lurking somewhere in the list of cabinets is at least one item that you're going to stumble on; that is, it's something that you don't ordinarily make but you accepted it because it's part of the package. Trouble is now, you've got no margin for error over this whole project because of the discount, and you've got this one part that is not going to go quickly. Strike one.2. In many cases the gazillionaire, while being as cooperative and understanding as can be, assumes that he has bought you. Or at least, that he can ask you to do all kinds of things like hang pictures in the apartment as long as you're already working there. And it's really hard to say "no" to the wife of the guy who laid such a nice check on you without even batting an eyelash. But this stuff adds up. Strike two. 3. Strike three can come out of anywhere, and the point is that after the first 2 you're at the edge, financially and emotionally. Any little screw-up will turn the whole thing into a colossal waste of time. Statistically it happens more on these big jobs than on the medium-sized ones.Fortunately for me, I finished up this last project with some 10% profit. Not nearly enough, but even that much could have easily disappeared into thin air. From your posts I have the impression that you're a good businessman. Your take on all this?David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David
I have learned the hard way regarding situations just as yours regarding discounts. The balance between trying to make the customer feel like they're getting a "good deal" because of volume and not donating 3 to 6 months of life is a fine line. Most of the time, I assume that I'm competing against another maker. (Probably a wise assumption, wouldn't you say! <g>) With experience comes savvy, and I avoid the package deal big discounts as best I can, mainly by pricing in steps. I step sell all the wonderful extra's in a large cabinet job. I know the customer wants to hire me because of quality of work, and I know my competition fairly well. I know that I cannot compete with the speed of the local larger commercial cabinet shops (we have quite a few in my area), but I also know that they don't want to compete with the one-of-a-kind quality that I put out. So, I sell that to the customer.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about that I worked through just last year. I had a new customer who was a referral from a friend I did work for. He had an office that he wanted turned into what I call a library, floor to ceiling woodworking and cabinetry. He told me up front that he was frugal, but I also was sitting in his living room in a neighborhood of million dollar homes. So, I knew that, while he may not like to part with his cash, that he would if he felt like he was getting good value. (He is a CFO for a large accounting firm, btw! Gotta love those accountants.) My approach was to appeal initially to his desire to be frugal, by showing him square boxes, flat surfaces, and flat panel doors. After he told me he wanted to hire me, I brought over the "options" when I went to pick up the deposit check and have him sign my agreement. I brought over my favorite raised panel door, with lots of detail, and pictures of fluted column's, arched detailing, and moulded shelf fronts, etc.... Well, the wife began to drool, and the job turned into a real nice one, and very profitable, too. I could have just kept my mouth shut, and built his basic box, which he probably would have been happy with, but now he has some serious wow factor in his home. I don't think I would have gotten the job if I had tried to sell him the whole enchilada all up front.
Now, when I see him at the hockey rink, (his son plays hockey, as does mine) he gives me the old buddy back slap, and tells anyone who will listen that I'm the best woodworker on the planet, which we all know is a bunch of baloney.
This next opinion is directed at the discussion and not at you.
In sales, it's important to maximize the sale with each and every customer you speak to. Don't be an order taker. Anybody can sit in a desk and sell hundred dollar bills for 80 bucks. Selling is taking a customer who wants to spend $10,000.00 and convincing that customer that $17,000.00 is inexpensive for what you're offering. If you don't ask for the sale, you will never get it. And, I'm not talking about just raising the price, all for profit. Maybe that extra $7000.00 has a cost factor of $2500 to $3000.00 additional material and time, etc..... What furniture and cabinetmaker in the group wouldn't like to have an additional $4000.00 profit from each and every customer over the course of a year. It adds up to the difference between a good year and another year wondering how long you can keep the doors open, the lights on, and your shingle hanging out at the door.
Kitchen cabinets need kitchen tables and chairs. Entertainment centers need cocktail tables and end tables. Bars need bar stools, and the list goes on.
All of this depends on quality work, and timely deliveries. Don't promise 4 weeks on a job that will take 8. It only ticks them off. My automatic reply to a customer in a hurry with an extremely tight deadline is that while she'll never see it in the work I deliver, that I do make mistakes. I promise to not include any of them in her work, but to rebuild a piece that just isn't perfect takes a little extra time. I have to allow for that in my estimate. She doesn't want me hiding boo boo's in her work, now does she???? That works every time, although I don't think it would work on a kitchen job with a new construction deadline. I don't do kitchens for builders, so I wouldn't know.
Wow, I've enjoyed the discussion, but it's 9:00 am here, and I gotta get my rearend 400 feet up the hill to my shop and get to work. Talk to you soon.
Jeff
Jeff;You raise an interesting point reguarding your clients wife having some input. (drooling was the term I believe) I realized many years ago that couples need to be together when I am discussing a proposed project. An example that I am currently engaged in, with a couple looking for a new home, has once again pointed that out to me. (no I am not a realtor, just consulting) I have clients who are not quite satisfied with their current house. The original architect was called in and his solution, plus some zoning restrictions, have lead them to see what other options are available to them. (female half of the couple has vetoed everything that I have suggested too mind you) I have a stronger relationship with the husband so we have looked at a couple of properties on our own. (actually I think initially his wife might have been out of town)We started looking at $500,000 acreages (we live in a rural area) and now it looks like they have decided on a $2.5 million home on 20 plus acres, which I estimate will require between $3-500,000 in renovations and upgrades to meet their requirements. When we started this exercise $2.5 was unthinkable as a starting point from what I understood. The questions have shifted from "How much will this cost?" to "What do we need to do to make this house ideal?" Makes me wonder if we shouldn't go look at a couple of the properties that I am familiar with, that are in the $3-6 million range, just to see what they think, but that is their realtors arena.This is not the first time I have experienced an upgrade so I think your strategy is sound.(incremental increases/opportunities) I mean it happens in the local pub, the waitress wants to know if I want dessert, or at the very least a coffee after dinner.Boy, what a tangent. Hey Matty are you still with this? Any of it remotely helpful?And now like yourself it is time to head to work.Cheers Greg
I think every product is dealt with by a different person in the household. My wife couldn't care less what I do with the garage, and I designed, built, and built all the furniture for our basement. Likewise, I stay pretty much out of the kitchen, and don't even dare discuss decorating a bathroom. She just tells me what she wants in the way of vanities, and I build them.
If a woodworker is selling furniture to a married couple, he/she had better be talking to the lady of the house. Where I do business, they are in charge of the home decorating department almost exclusively, with exceptions being with an office desk for a man instead of a woman (different design style altogether), and basement/recroom furniture being more of a 50/50 deal. I've had husbands tell me to design it with their wives, and let them know when it's time to talk money, and leave the room. No problem for me. Once the wife's convinced, the husband doesn't stand a chance at saying no to anything.
Jeff
Jeff,At one time I thought I could write a book on the variety of husband-wife relationships we get to witness in these situations. Unbelievable. At one extreme, I had a woman who ordered new furniture for the living room and on the day we delivered it, she said in all honesty: "Now let's see if my husband notices". And then there's the cases when they argue between themselves to such a point that you've just gotta leave. Most couples have some division of labor as you said. I think the rarest of all is a couple that really does everything together.regards,David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David
If you decide to write that book, save me a couple of chapters. We could truly show that no matter what part of the world you reside in, dealing with the differing complexities of the male/female relationship is an ever changing endeavour. Mastering the art (if that is even possible), or at least striving to come close, will increase the bottom line of one's business whether selling furniture, automobiles, houses, or lawn care.
Cheers,
Jeff
I'm new to this forum, but I just wanted to say I really enjoy the level of experience here. Its refreshing to hear from people who aren't just hobbiests discussing the hard cold reality of doing woodworking for a living. My workshop and latest projects - last updated March 10, 2007
Paul;Great looking site. I just might get lost there for a while reading.Cheers Greg
I whole heartedly agree, when mama's happy everyone's happy.
Now back to chairs, the reason most woodworkers don't build chair is they think they are harder then they really are. The insurance can be a small detereint(sp?) but there is always at least one person in a group that will abuse a chair, i.e. leaning back onto the back two legs, that puts an incredible amount of stress on the joints so its just a matter of time before they fail. A better built chair will last longer without a doubt but ...
As far as being good at B.S. that is a start but anyone can BS you have to be able to close the deal also.
I read this entire thead and I think it started with wanting to sell through galleries. First you need to find out if they want your product. Second you need to set your price so you have all of your expenses covered (overhead can be a killer) plus your profit otherwise what is the point, you might as well give it away. The gallery will mark it up at least 2 times what you wholesale a piece for, more than likely it will be 2.5 to 3 times depending on what their overhead is. That is why you set your price at what you are comfortable with. Consignment is another option but I do not recommend it but you still have to have your price set.
On all orders wholesale or retail I require 50% down and the balance at completion, preferable a CC or a check will work after it has cleared the bank. That gets them in the next available spot in the schedule.
OK I'll stop rambling now. Besides I have an order to finish for a gallery that I've been dealing with for a while, they still send me my down payment befor I start.
Darrin
Wow I have never worked with a gallery that puts a 200% mark up on any product. I have seen 100% but that is only on small items like cutting boards and little knick knack craft items. But on anything that is furniture I have never seen more than 50% and usally it's around 30%. I mean the gallery has to be able to stay in business and the only way they do that is selling things. To mark them up 200% means the item is way under priced by the maker. If you see a gallery making that kind of money on your work RAISE YOUR PRICES.That's just my 2 centsKaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
I have been selling wholesale for a few years and it is not to common with furniture to be marked up 3 times, but it does sometimes happen in areas where the market will bare it. It is more common for smaller items and glass art, jewelry and such. When I do my wholesale shows I have my prices set according to my overhead and then what the market will bare, and believe me I do not lose money. I have my pieces in a number of galleries along the east coast and they are typically 2 to 2 1/2 times wholesale. They seem to be selling the pieces because they keep reordering.
Darrin
Edited 4/9/2007 5:30 pm ET by vbwoodworks
Lots of good advice here, Jeff. It's hard being a businessman when you're a woodworker at heart :)
Paul
Like others have said you have to know your market. Where I think a lot of woodworkers go wrong, is they are "WOODIES" They have all the fancy exposed joinery . But most people in the real world don't see that. The see beauty, but there beauty and your beauty are completly different. They see the finish they see the timber grain. They see the over all beauty of the design.
Only I see where a secret mitered dovetail was used, and only I can appreciate that. But I not the guy that is going to buy your furniture. Why, because I can make it myself. So I think the trick is, is to be able to make something, anything and do it fast. Simple yet elegent pieces that draw people in. Then once you have them there, then you explain to them what can be done. I can cut all the dovetails on the drawers by hand, I can put a beautiful inlay in, I can do all these things that will make you piece special and one of a kind. But there is a price attached to all those things.
Anything that is built well and looks good will sell. For your price range, you have to remember that the gallery is going to take there commmision (30-50%) on most items, but for things like cutting boards and tray they usally mark up 100%. So if you are thinking that the gallery is going to sell something for 500-800. then you are only going to see 250-400 of that. So design and built with that in mind. Because that should limit you to how much time you are going to spend on each piece.
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
While it's true chairs have little competition, there is a reason.
Liability.
I've been involved as professional witness for two law suits, and both involved chairs that failed. I also teach furniture design and focus entirely on seating design in one course. It's a rare great chair I get from some of the most talented and creative students in the country. Why? Chair design is very hard. Chair design demands an understanding of structure, materials, ergonomics, comfort, and so on. While I've seen more than a thousand original chairs made in my shop over the last 30 years, only a few have been what I would consider marketable. Most, however, were very attractive. The aesthetics are easy compared to getting the structure and comfort right. I won two international design awards for my chair designs back in the 80s. I still use one of those chairs. The other failed structurally after a few years of use. Both are attractive, original, comfortable, and well crafted. I was only 50% at getting the structure right, though. If you add in all the other chairs I've designed that didn't get to competition, I'm about 20% on structure, 80% on comfort, and only 20% successful.
I sell all the little tables/plant stands I make. There is no liability from them. Most don't take very long to produce. Everyone has a place for a little table. The retail outlets don't satisfy the market. A grouping of 10 or more varied designful tables doesn't take up much space in a gallery, but can be an impressive demonstration of your talent. I do gallery shows every few years at the university I teach at. My tables garner the most interest and comments.
Anybody in business ought to carry liability insurance. There is no substitute for it. No matter what you build.
For a talented woodworker (the original poster) to stay out of the chairmaking arena because of the risk he'll be sued if a chair collapses would be absurd. If every maker or manufacturer of things to which liability can attach decided to quit building then our lives would be vastly different than they are now.
Your assertion that a prime reason individual craftspeople aren't building chairs is because of liability concerns is beyond laughable. In all my years and in all my conversations with individual artists, guild jury members, critics, etc. I have never once heard anybody bring up liability issues related specifically to chairs and that these same issues kept them from bringing a great design to fruition.
I'd love a citation to the cases in which your were called as an expert witness.
"Anybody in business ought to carry liability insurance. There is no substitute for it. No matter what you build."I agree."For a talented woodworker (the original poster) to stay out of the chairmaking arena because of the risk he'll be sued if a chair collapses would be absurd. If every maker or manufacturer of things to which liability can attach decided to quit building then our lives would be vastly different than they are now."Talented at woodworking does not imply talent at designing, engineering, and crafting a good chair. I offer only a cautionary tale of the greater liability and difficulty involved."Your assertion that a prime reason individual craftspeople aren't building chairs is because of liability concerns is beyond laughable. In all my years and in all my conversations with individual artists, guild jury members, critics, etc. I have never once heard anybody bring up liability issues related specifically to chairs and that these same issues kept them from bringing a great design to fruition."I have no idea why there are not so many chair makers out there as one other poster stated. I only suggest that some may consider liability, and others my find it more challenging than profitable. I doubt my comments will have any effect on the overall fruition of great designs."I'd love a citation to the cases in which your were called as an expert witness."Both cases were settled. Neither went to court. One involved a Balans style chair sold through Sears credit card statements. Many failed from poor construction. In my case a woman was sitting on one when the seat failed, dumping her backwards where she broke both wrists trying to catch her fall. I was asked to determine if the failure was a design flaw or abuse by the plaintiff. The chair clearly failed from the poor choice of materials, construction details, and cost cutting in the choice and length of screws. Settled for $30,000 to cover her medical costs legal expenses, and some pain and suffering. You might find it in the Riley County KS. court records as "Pearson vs. Sears"The second one involved residential dining chairs used in a commercial restaurant. A broken chair (loose rungs) was put aside in the back room. At some point later a large group of people arrived for dinner and the waitress brought out the broken chair. She had not been informed it was broken. A hefty woman was seated in the broken chair. She eventually scooted back in the chair to go to the restroom and had the chair legs separate beneath her. She twisted her knee trying to prevent herself from being dumped on the floor. A law suit followed.
I was consulted primarily to determine if residential chairs were legal to use in commercial establishments. There are stringent standards to which commercial chairs are tested and certified. None exist (at least in this state) for residential chairs. The restaurant owner eventually settled in paying the womans medical bills. I never knew the court case number or name of the parties.
Great timing on this thread with the gallery exhibit of chairs on the front page of the FW website. Somebody had better get a personal injury attorney over to that gallery pronto.
Edited 4/3/2007 6:31 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
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