I was in Lowes the other day and they had a Stanley 6″ Surform pocket plane. I am going to be doing a lot of drywall this summer and said oh I need that. Well I get it home and I try and loosen the screw to take out the cardboard trapped between the body and cutting blade. The PLASTIC screw broke just trying to loosen it!!! I mean do they really have to save a nickel and use a plastic screw to make a proffit?? By the way the blade clamp is also plastic!
I also looked at a Stanley miter box. I think it was $40. I was like thats a good price. Then I saw how it was made. Anything they could make with plastic they did. I mean it was horrable, supprised the blade was not plastic. What is wrong with these guys? I looked on the web. That is the only ajdustable miter box they offer. No better model, just it and plastic simple miter boxes. Have they given up on the better woodworkers and just decided to sell cheap stuff to Joe smoh and make a quick buck?
Is Stanley so desperate to sell to big box stores they are willing to cheapen their products to meet the selling stores pricing demands (so called Walmart effect)?? And be dammed if their reputation falters because of bad products?
And before anyone mentions it, I know righty tighty, lefty loosey. I even looked at the thread pitch when I first tried to loosen it and it didn’t turn. And yes I was just using my fingers, no pliers! Snap!
Edited 2/10/2008 5:48 pm ET by benhasajeep
Replies
For a company that used to be the pinnacle of quality for woodworking tools, Stanley's hand tools (save maybe their tape measures) seem to be pretty shabby. I think Stanley took the same path that Craftsman took about a decade or so ago - they sold tools based on their name and reputation alone.
What's eventually going to happen is that professionals and serious hobbyists are going to completely ignore them, and the average homeowner will be shy to purchase anything as well. That's when Stanley will either have to bail out of the tool field and just go with doors and windows, or they'll discover that they have strayed so far, they will need to win back the consumer's confidence.
Either way, the reputation is going down the tubes fast...
Tom Iovino
http://tomsworkbench.com
Part of the problem is that almost no professional or serious hobbiest is buying miter boxes--they already have Compound Miter Saws which burn electrons to cut wood. That makes the $150 class miterbox a small niche since you can buy a Hitachi 10" compound miter saw for $139, and a no name brand for $99.
Surform has been decisively beaten in the market by the MicroPlane. Consequently, what is left for the Home Depots and the Lowes is the low end for DIYers who need to make 4 miter cuts on the current project and doesn't think they will ever need to do it again. Lowes and Home Depot are not places to buy quality anything.
So what you are seeing is not an attempt to increase profits by cheapening the product it is an attempt at survival in niches that have been supplanted in the high end market.
Steve -Very true... Still, for some cuts, it's easier for me to drag out a small miter box to make a few cuts than the chop saw...For that, I usually look for tools from Lee Valley...Tom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
Even with Lee Valley, Garrett Wade and others you still have to be careful. They are also retailing products manufactured in China & Taiwan, etc. I have purchased several times within the last year and am surprised at the number of items labeled as such but were not identified that way before hand.
You cannot always tell by lower prices. Given a choice, I would and and do pay more for any reasonable item manufactured in the States or Canada just to keep the jobs here.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
I'm with you... buy quality, cry once
Buy trash, cry every time you use it...Tom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
The location of production has far less to do with quality than how the item is spec'd by the importer, and how much quality control is mandated to ensure the specs are met. You can get very high quality offshore (SawStop for example) but if you are going for price alone you can find shoddy anywhere.
I understand what you are saying however I am trying to emphsize that we used to be able to buy quality AND keep jobs here.
I know the world changes and profit is profit but at the same time we have allowed ourselves to be placed in a position of choosing to save a buck or let our neighbor get a layoff slip. Mal-wart, and their policies (now universally accepted) and our eternal quest for a deal have pretty much ensured the demise of manufacturing in this country.
That is sad when we still have the capability (resources, space, technology and manpower) but no longer the drive, ambition or education levels required to maintain what made this nation so great in the last century and a half.
Have you ever been layed off? I have and it is a terrible feeling. Despite all your best efforts as an employee and family provider the rug is yanked from under you and there is nothing that you can do about it. I now try to vote with my wallet and will no longer support firms that show signs of offshoring. It is a small step I know, but I feel better for it. One's priorities is what it comes down to....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
We can avoid imports and lower our standard of living. But jobs don't necessarily result. Whether there are jobs or not depends on more aspects of the economy than just imports or exports.
But, what is neglected is that when we decide to increase the standard of living for the whole--those large numbers who benefit from lower prices--at the expense of certain particular jobs, we, collectively, ought to feel an obligation to ease the transition to new jobs through much more financial aid, and retraining or educational assistance. But, that means taxes.
Regardless of where the products were manufactured, Stanley has made a decision to design, manufacture and market junk tools for limited-time use by non-professionals. That's the problem, not where they were made.
I guess they would rather sell a cheap surform to 10 do-it-yourselfers for one time use than sell a single high quality one to a Pro. I'm sure the numbers work out for them. Profit is the strongest motivator. I wonder if their product designers have ever even used the tools they design.
I bet their perception is that there is no (mass) market for reasonable quality hand tools. I suspect that going by the numbers, they are correct. There is a small market for high quality hand tools and maybe it's growing and even a market for very high quality "boutique" tools. But that's not Stanley. Stanley is a mass marketer selling through the big box stores, where price points are all important.
Fortunately, there are alternatives these days.
David C
Interesting thread. So here's my 2p:For one thing, my Dad used to work for Stanley Works (not in hand tools) as a production engineer. I had summer jobs there during high school. What happened at Stanley is not surprising. From just after the Civil War until WWII, Stanley made very fine hand tools. They had some klunkers, but by and large quality and creativity was high. Why was this? Because as a successful company, Stanley made tools for a very demanding- and expanding market: professionals. Carpenters, finish carpenters, cabinet makers, furniture shops, carriage makers, boat builders... the list is long. Power tools were rare, and mostly confined to shops and factories. Prehung doors, nailing guns, factory made windows, power miter saws were in the future. Building a house meant hanging every door, fitting all the baseboard and crown moldings by hand, nailing in every stud with a hammer, assembling rafters on site... These tradesmen needed tools that were accurate, well made, rugged, long lasting, and easy to align and repair. Competition was stiff- there were many other companies vying for the business.After WWII, things changed a great deal. Power tools proliferated, factory made prehung doors and factory made windows came into being, houses went up quickly on tracts- without moldings and as much finish carpentry. Items formerly made in small shops were now made in factories. To survive, Stanley went after the DIY market. Hand planes and other tools were geared for light and occasional use by homeowners, not by pros. Tool quality and variety dropped. And Stanley was not alone. Other, long time makers of fine hand tools (Disston, etc) went the same route- or out of business altogether.The market for fine, well made tools for woodworkers (professional and serious amateurs) is small, much smaller than the pre-WWII market of professionals. Large companies are unlikely to find it compelling. The distribution of tools through big box stores discourages quality as well. The relentless pushing of a low price point at the expense of quality has inevitable results. In the end, we are better off with the LN, LV, Adria and other small-scale suppliers who focus on quality and customer service.As for the U.S. vs off-shore manufacturing debate, I understand how someone who has lost their job to foreign competition must feel. But many U.S. manufacturers have wrapped themselves in the flag to hide from their own poor management and quality issues. If a factory in Taiwan can build a better bandsaw, then I'll buy from them. Only by competing on quality and price can any company have a long term survival strategy.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Well, here's a good example of what's happening. We use a lot of Nicholson double extra slim taper files and, if you sharpen your own back saws, you may use them too. We order these by the dozen. It appears Cooper Tools recently moved at least part of their production to Mexico. I've always been disappointed by the initial surface quality of Nicholson files because the rough finish telegraphs into the teeth as they are cut. The new files we just got were the first I've seen from Mexico and they make the old files look perfectly polished by comparison. It's hard to believe how bad these new files are and because of the coarse grind of the file blanks they don't last long. Imagine trying to get a good finish with junk like this--see the photo. I've bought my last Nicholson file.
View Image
Fortunately for me, I wandered into the local Lowes several months ago, when the new Nicholsons were coming out. I bought a handful of x-slim, slim, etc. files for about $.75 each. Got enough to take care of any needs I'll have through my remaining years. These were NOS, but in very yellowed packets. Clerk said he didn't know why anyone would even buy one.
As far as the US vs. foreign manufacturing, I own manufacturing plant that supplies parts the primary automotive market. We compete against foreign part makers every day. We are not on a level playing field! The rules are different by the companies purchasing. What I'm saying is that it is Nicholson that specifies the acceptable quality level for files made in Mexico, just as it was Mattel that specified the acceptable quality level for toys made in China. Maintain equal standards and you'll see the pricing gap narrow. Factor in the logistic part of the equation and it narrows even more.
T.Z.
I agree with Tony. I have sourced goods from Taiwan and China that were of very high quality. The point is, you have to be willing to pay for the quality AND you have to maintain strict QC in-country. In other words, if you are bringing in a lot of stuff, you need to have your inspectors in China, to head off shoddy goods before the container gets onto the boat. The responsibility is with the importing firm.China is just full of little manufacturing plants. Some do good work, some not. Some Chinese manufacturers are capable of the highest quality of work. Many farm out most work anyway, so you don't know where it is done. However, the management of the firm with the primary contract, if they understand that you are serious, if they care about their reputation, and if they are confident that there are consequences -- then the management will be sure you get good stuff. FWIW, most light bulbs in America are made in China. For all practical purposes, there aren't any US light bulb factories anymore (there may be one, with limited output).
"As for the U.S. vs off-shore manufacturing debate, I understand how someone who has lost their job to foreign competition must feel. But many U.S. manufacturers have wrapped themselves in the flag to hide from their own poor management and quality issues. If a factory in Taiwan can build a better bandsaw, then I'll buy from them. Only by competing on quality and price can any company have a long term survival strategy."
Glaucon
Here! Here! Or is it, Hear! Hear!
Either way that statement deserves to be repeated frequently when discussion turns to where things are made.
Rob
Very well put. I do think you are a little out dated on windows though. I've owned several houses which were built in the 1890's and probably even in the 1880's and all had factory made windows. All the doors were factory made also but, of course, were not pre-hung. I don't think it is the designers or the manufacturers problem so much as the fact that American labor is unwilling or unable to work for just pennies per hour instead of dollars per hour.
Edited 2/15/2008 7:50 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Tinkerer,
American labor is unwilling or unable to work for just pennies per hour instead of dollars per hour.
Don't take me wrong but I think maybe the shoe is on the other foot, i.e. American manufacturing is unwilling or unable to pay just pennies per hour instead of dollars per hour.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
How can that be? Every employer would pay less if they could. They pay only as much as they have to, to get (and keep) the quality of employee that they need to do the job.
-Steve
Steve,
Ooops, got that last part backwards. Should have been: American manufacturing is unwilling or unable to pay dollars per hour; just pennies per hour instead.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/18/2008 3:20 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Oh, I see what you're saying now. I still don't believe it, though. ;-)
Employers pay what they have to in order to get the employees that they need. If the cost of an overseas employee is enough lower than that of a domestic employee to make up for the additional overhead that having the overseas employee entails, then that's the smart business decision to make. Of course, figuring out what's really involved in that overhead is the tricky part.
-Steve
Steve,
figuring out what's really involved in that overhead is the tricky part.
I'm assuming that the employers is also asking hisself, as part of the overhead, if I offshore what will it cost me to maintain quality standards? Or do I even care.........
Sorry, guess that last one was a bit callous. It just seems to me that when the big guns started offshoring, their quality slowly started to fall thru the crapper.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"It just seems to me that when the big guns started offshoring, their quality slowly started to fall thru the crapper."
I think the "quality curve" is actually quite different. When the US companies first started to move production overseas, the quality plummeted. It has now started to come back up (for those who have had overseas production for some years). The cycle repeats itself every time another company moves its production overseas.
I think it's a learning process. The overseas fabricators make all kinds of claims about what they can do, so the US companies sign them up. The US companies aren't used to having to hand-hold their subcontractors to keep quality up, so they don't bother to do that with their new overseas subs. But then the stuff comes back and it's crap. So the US companies have to start over and redo all the contracts with their subs and include all kinds of additional QA procedures that they never had to before, etc., etc. Eventually, it gets under control, but it takes years (which in some cases is too long for the company to survive). The language barriers don't help.
You see the same thing happen whenever a company hires on a new subcontractor, but the effects are more exaggerated when the subs are in developing countries, where quality standards are often very far removed from where they are in the US.
-Steve
Steve,
The language barriers don't help.
That ain't no joke either. I call Verizon sometimes and I can't understand a thing the person is saying! That's support? Now support is also offshored too. What's next? Most everything accessible to customers has either been automated (sloff through never ending menus and hope you don't get disconnected!)
I don't wanna turn this into The Cafe but it's a crying shame what we've done to this country.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/18/2008 9:39 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Cafe?
The Cafe is kinda like the WWE of non woodworking related subjects, or so I am told. Never been in there and don't care to.
Oh, and you have to ask for permission from FWW to get in.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"It just seems to me that when the big guns started offshoring, their quality slowly started to fall thru the crapper."Sort of like the Guy that goes to the Pub and not home to the Wife and Children.. All downhill from there...
Will,
A guy has to go to the pub every once in a while.
Rob
I was using literal figures. Minimum wage is several dollars per hour. Most manufactures pay more than minimum wage for all of its employees. I think some labor in some countries is paid less than a dollar per hour - so it is pennies. It doesn't take too much thought to realize that if a company, making only fair earnings is paying its labor less than a dollar per hour suddenly pays several times that amount will soon go broke.. In most businesses, the labor is a large part of the total expense.
"The location of production has far less to do with quality than how the item is spec'd by the importer, and how much quality control is mandated to ensure the specs are met. You can get very high quality offshore (SawStop for example) but if you are going for price alone you can find shoddy anywhere."I'm not so sure about that anymore. I tend to feel that most imported products from developing nations such as China, India, Eastern Europe countries etc. are just made to a lower standard period and that workers and management in those nations just don't know really what high quality is and thus have nothing to set the bar to.
Admittedly Sawstop is a good product and we have been using them in our shop since the first ones arrived in the U.S. So I am quite familiar with the "quality" manufacturing of this imported product. Firstly I find the top to be rather crudely finished and not much better than any other imported machinery top. When the saw arrived and I had to put it together I found the wings to be kinked either up or down and needed to shim to bring them into plan with the main casting. Loose bolts still plague the machine and every few months something needs to be tightened down for example the bolts holding the blade tilt assembly have slipped twice and needed to be retightened and lately I've noticed a little bit of slop in the mechanism. Little details like a hand crank that wobbles when I turn it doesn't affect performance but it's annoying every time I look at it or think about it.
Every once in awhile I open the cabinet up and clean up some of the debris in their and I wonder about the import electrical parts. By American standards the mag switch seems pretty light duty and I wonder what the longevity will be.
In contrast Japan which has been manufacturing goods for the world for quite a while longer once produced shoddily made products but were able to overcome that stigma in part because they had an example to compete with (the U.S.) Whereas China has no example to compete with because we have shipped all our manufacturing there.
Very interesting about the SawStop. Other reports had placed it at the top of the cabinet saw quality levels. That said, I'll still stand by the concept. All it takes is a few US quality control engineers and a contract to give them some authority. When the US manufacturers don't do that it is because it would raise costs. (For example, those same countries make machine tools at a much different standard--not that of Japan to be sure--but still way above the level of woodworking tools. )
"When the US manufacturers don't do that it is because it would raise costs. (For example, those same countries make machine tools at a much different standard--not that of Japan to be sure--but still way above the level of woodworking tools. )"It depends at what level of work one is doing. At College of the Redwoods Fine Woodworking program for instance you'd have a lot of cursing if a straight edge or plan body was out more than .001". As a side note we buy numbered drill bits all the time. I've tried all the different quality levels that MSC Industrial sells. By far the worst are chinese bits followed by American standard grade. To get a #60 bit that is actually the diameter a #60 bit is supposed to be I need to purchase Chicago Latrobe brand made in the good ol' USA.
.001" ?? So if you breath on it or the furnace comes on and changes the temp of the room what happens?
Doug Meyer
If something is out of flat it's out of flat. Doesn't matter if the furnace comes on or not. If the metallurgy is consistent expansion and contraction should be consistent throughout the tool.
I know it sounds overly precise but if you think of the Japanese masters pulling billowy shavings off their plane something has to be precise. They probably don't get down there with a micrometer to check their specs on the hand plane since it's by feel but you can pretty much bet that their tolerances are pretty tight and .001 +/- wouldn't surprise me.
I think the confusion here is that you're talking about metal and Doug thought you were talking about wood.
-Steve
Well several members of the family are in the tool and die buisness and the 1000th of an inch you are talking about is something in thier range. So getting that close is going to be an issue. And is going to cost. But keeping it that close is another issue. In truth I have trouble believing that your average tool (or anything else) will stay that dead nuts on for very long. You are talking about something that is half as thick as the average sheet of paper. (or thier abouts)
Doug Meyer
"As a side note we buy numbered drill bits all the time. I've tried all the different quality levels that MSC Industrial sells. By far the worst are chinese bits followed by American standard grade. To get a #60 bit that is actually the diameter a #60 bit is supposed to be I need to purchase Chicago Latrobe brand made in the good ol' USA."And why isn't the difference in quality that you find explained by the price difference between the bits instead of the country of origin?
Many here are too young to remember but when Japan started pumping out in the 50s, Made In Japan meant "this is junk". Then one morning we woke up and they were cleaning our clocks.
One problem with overseas stuff is they have nothing to set the bar, and the companies that get them to do this stuff (Delta, a perfect example) are damned poor communicators and somewhere along the way lost the concept of customer service.
Ted,
You regret that: "In contrast Japan which has been manufacturing goods for the world for quite a while longer once produced shoddily made products but were able to overcome that stigma in part because they had an example to compete with (the U.S.) Whereas China has no example to compete with because we have shipped all our manufacturing there".
My boy: you must not be so parochial. There is the rest of the world that you have failed to notice. Excellent quality machines are designed and made within Europe, for instance - German, Italian and Austrian are exceptionally good but they aren't the only countries with a still excellent and vibrant engineering tradition. Even the British still make a fine machine or two (not so many as was, as in the US).
China is a big place and their economy is ramping up. Of course some new Chinese entrepreneur will seek to compete with the best and soon the Europeans will be having to innovate even more than they already do, as the Chinese make Knapp and Felder copies even better than the Austrians. Meanwhile, I am very happy with my German, Italian, Swiss and British tools. (Oh and a thing or two of exceptional quality from New Zealand).
Perhaps you should have a shopping trip on this side of the Atlantic? It's called "trade", the backbone of America and freedom (it used to be claimed). Surely you have heard of it? Personally I am happy to buy them LN planes and I have loads of items from the wonderful Lee Valley of Canada (many made there but some imported from.....China). Meanwhile you may buy excellent whusky from Scotland or perhaps even a Clifton plane.
Lataxe, world-citizen, keeping an eye out for good stuff from India and China, as well as America; and everywhere really.
Well said. I was thinking along the same line but you have written it much better.
Actually the Surform still has its place, at least with drywall. Really good tool to clean up an edge or do light trimming on an edge if your initial cut didn't come out quite right. I actually have an older one at my parents house that I left there years and years ago. I actually called my parents and asked if they could find it in the garage and send it to me. It is the older style where it has the metal screw and blade clamp.
The only reason I can think Stanley used a plastic screw was they could make blade changing toolless. Instead of needing a screwdriver to loosen the screw, the plastic one has a tab you can grab with your fingers.
As for the miter box I was looking at it as it would be handy to have for small projects where I wouldn't have to lug around my 10" 50# sliding miter saw. Would also be a smaller clean up, unless agian I haul up my 30# shop vac. My shop is 180' from the house, so its either bring the tools to the house, when done haul back. Or keep walking back and forth. In my case a hand miter saw would make sence. But I guess my situation not typical of the general buying public.
I just did a search on Amazon. They call the Plastic Stanley box Contractor grade! An all metal Jorgensen is only $8 more but, has poor reviews for not being 90 deg up and down and I guess has plastic in the blade guides that are weak. And an inexpensive Great Next is $15 less and all metal, but I know there is a reason for that.
There has to be a good one out there somewhere. Maybe I can find an older used good Stanley that is in someones corner under a pile of power miter saw dust.
I have a Jorgenson. It is not all bad, but it is definitely twitchy. You have to check the blade alignment before you make a cut, and you cannot power a cut because the blade will wander. Still, it cuts cleanly and if you let the blade do the work, you can get straight cuts.All in all, though, I'd prefer a good miter box with a good backsaw in it.Joe
Why not use your miter saw to make a miter box from scrap, cheapest solution and as accurate as you make it.
Ben,
It's not just Stanley. It is happening everwhere in all types of tools and machinery. And you know what, the only ones to blame are the American public who insists on "cheap, cheap, cheap" :( There is probably only 1 or 2 % of us who would actually pay a little more for quality. The other day I watched and listened while one of my employees spent 15 minutes or so calling 5 different parts stores to see who had the cheapest starter for his truck. Its just the way that almost everyone in this country is now days.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
Consider that next time you buy something "Made in Taiwan". All the overseas spending has destroyed manufacturing, but that's a political statement, and I'm not political, so.................never mind.
unsigned
"All the overseas spending has destroyed manufacturing."There is cheap design and then there is cheap manufacturing. Putting aside an entire spectrum of European manufacturers who are most certainly overseas, but design and manufacture some of the best machinery in the world, there are also many examples of well designed Taiwanese/Chinese products, not to mention very high quality Japanese products. At the end of the day consumers need to vote for quality with their wallets, something that history tells us they are reluctant to do. But having said that, a lot of blame is laid at the feet of manufacturers as well because they persist in the mindset that high quality equates to high cost. Auto manufacturers learned the hard way at the hands of Toyota and Honda that high quality begins with design and manufacturing controls, not a price point.
I was just using my Sears Craftsman "Made in USA" 48-inch T-square today and noticed that it is off accuracy by about 3/16 of an inch! There's no slop in in it or anything. Its just off! I hadn't used it for anything before but a straight edge for cutting with a utility knife, today, I was cutting down some plywood with my German made Festool saw and decided to measure my marks with the T-Square. I decided to double check the T-Square's measurements with my USA made Sears Crafstman tape measure (I love the bottom lockers!) which I referenced against my Starrett USA made combination Square.That said, I truly believe that quality products can be made anywhere in the world, its all about the company that designs, engineers, and does QA on the products that we buy. Take for example, Baldwin brass hardware that is made in China, its as good as any of their other products. Baldwin takes the time to make sure that the customer is getting quality goods.
That's funny. I was looking at at Stanley's miter saw. It was a beauty for forty dollars plus postage. Probably the best one out there but I just couldn't afford it. Eh, I forgot to mention that was in the mid forty's, during the war and I was making just eighteen cents an hour shaking vines out in a potatoe field, I just couldn't swing it. Things have changed.
Edited 2/10/2008 11:44 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Is Stanley so desperate to sell to big box stores they are willing to cheapen their products ..........
Emphatically, YES!
In my industry we exhibit at trade shows. When the vendors see the Home Dumpo buyer walking down the aisle, they'll slay their grandmother and splay a row of wheelchairers to get to him.
Unfortunately, in those big box stores the level of tool is low. Since you mention dry-wall I'll go back to my old days in college doing it for a living. I could have bought the cheap tools or throwaways, but instead bought goldblat blades. I can remember spending almost $15 for a single 8" flat, that lowes had for a couple bucks. I still have all those tools. I've remodled a couple houses and they are still there ready if I need them along with my good quality paint brushes.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Unfortunately, in those big box stores the level of tool is low...Not always as I 'think' you have stated..I have a few (well, more than a FEW so called junk tools for the two main BigBoxes).. Some are bad and most are better than OK for the price.. I am NOT saying they are perfect.. No tool is for everybody! I own more than several Roybi tools that most thing are junk and some Ridgid tools... I LOVED my old Ryobi 3000? sliding saw.. I made MANY projects on it that turned out better than OK! I also LOVE my old JUNK Ryobi routers!I would say, if you can AFFORD the better tools GET THEM! However, If your like me the so called 'JUNK' tools are NOT THAT BAD!AND, I'd think my woodworking is par to most (NOT ALL) except for my finishing skills!I have access and have had used many different tools for metal and woodworking.. The Quality stuff is QUALITY.. But I cannot afford them now if I want to EAT!And then again you can ruin a 'good tool' just as easy as a Junk tool..I just did that.. My Tormek.. COLD, COLD, COLD here this winter.. I sharpened some blades.. OK, so I forgot to take it inside where it is sort of warm.. The grinding stone busted apart! I forgot that stone 'sucks up water' AND it freezes!!OK so operator error is a big problem with ANY tool!
Thanks for the catch. In my post I left out the word "can be Low" which changed the context of my intent entirely. Also while running spell check I changed GoldBLat to Flat somehow, so I flubbed the post. I agree that you do what you have to. I've bought throwaway tools before. It depends on the need. I've bought the 5$ woodcraft bits where I needed a profile that was for that project only, instead of my usual whiteside bits. At that cost it's cheaper to use it and chuck it than have it sharpened. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I have "cheap" tools as well as "good" tools. Both in hand tools and power tools (woodworking and others). And my expetations for the performance of each tool in inline with their design or cost. Basically I don't expect a cheap tool to perform as well as a good tool.
My problem is you pay a decent price for a "good" tool and it does not perform as a "good" tool. Hence my original problem with Stanley and a plastic screw. The Surform should be a "good" tool as its extremely simple in construction and design. And yet Stanley has found a way to make it a POOR tool by including a single plastic part where in the past was a metal part.
I am not a tool snob. I have Snap-on and Craftsman mechanics tools. Porter Cable, Milwaukee, Makita, Ryobi, Craftsman, Central Machinery, and no name Cheap China woodworking tools. I don't expect more out of a tool than it should perform. But I do expect them to perform at a certain level given what they should do! If a tool breaks just opening the packaging. The manufacturer has some serious issues!!
I agree with most of what you have stated. Good tools can be had at big box stores. The term "good quality" is a relative term. Good enough to do the job or good enough for who its for. Some folks see quality as a status symbol rather than a need. Most tool buyers are homeowners and don't need top of the line tools. Most of these folks are also on limited budgets. When one buys a tool, he should look at it in the following light. What do I expect from the tool? How long must it provide service and what kind of service? Am I the type of person who takes good care of tools? Some people can take a top of the line tool and ruin it in a few days while others can take a piece of junk and make it do wonders. I like to think that I am one of the latter but I try to buy the best that I feel is justified in each situation. Ryobi has been bad mouthed for not being of high quality. I have a Ryobi router that I have owned for nearly 20 years now that is still good and has been used quite a lot. I used one in my school shop for several years prior to purchasing mine and it outperformed a Millwaukee by several years. I think that they make a good tool for the price. I believe Ryobi has been up front in the development of new concepts . What about the portable planer? If I am not mistaken, they produced the first. Also, their portable jointer has a place in my shop, a nice tool for small work and produces a very smooth surface. They have also produced a nice job site saw. I think you should not be too critical of products until you have given them a fair test. By the way, plastic is not a bad thing if the right kind is used. Just look at our portable electric tools. The plastic cases being made are tougher than the old metal tools. If you don't believe me , drop both off a house roof and see for yourself. Have a nice day.
See my recent post, "My LAST Delta Tool"
America has been "Wal-Mart-ized". The American public has been convienced that low price, not qualit, is the measure of a product. Americans won't buy an American made product for $30 and have it last five years. But the will buy Chinese junk for $10 and replace it two or three times a year.
The days of quality goods, services and, especially, tools are over in America.
Sadly, we need to get used to using junk and replacing it often.
When I need a miter box and it is inconvenient to use my miter saw, I make a small miter box from wood at whatever size fits my need. I cut the slots with whatever saw I intend to use.
Actually I was just looking at ordering a good backsaw, and doing just that. Even the "good" Nobex miter saws I have seen, look like they have plastic handles and guides between the uprights. Not sure but thats the way it looks to me. I think I would rather spend the money on a good back saw. I have enough good birch and popular ply scraps I could make dozens of boxes.
Check this miter saw out. Never used one but I've seen them at Rockler before.
http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/10974
their windows and doors are not that much better, if it says STANLEY on it i do not buy it,maybe if people will stop buying their cheap junk hopfully they will learn
Good luck with that. The reason that they make cheap junk in the first place is that people lap it up.
-Steve
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