All,
I have seen references to tools of made many years ago (such as plane blades and chisels) made of ‘cast steel’. Have also seen references that ‘cast steel’ is superior to some modern day materials such as A2. What is ‘cast steel’, what make it so good and why did it disappear (think I know the answer to it’s disappearance) ?
Thanks for your help
Replies
Early steel was made by a forging process that adjusted the carbon content of the metal by repeatedly heating and hammering what started out as wrought iron on an anvil. The nature of the process created steel of very erratic quality dependent on the skills of the forger.
The invention of the Bessemer converter made it possible to create large quantities of steel for shipbuilding and bridges, but the process didn't adapt well to creating specialty steels for blade making.
A major advancement in steel making was the development of a process for creating steel in batches in furnaces where the chemistry and the quality of the final product was much more tightly controlled. After a batch of steel was made in a furnace, the molten steel had be poured into molds to create ingots that would then be worked into blades, hence it was "cast steel". The designation of "cast steel" on a chisel was meant to convey that it was a high quality tool made with a state of the art steel blade.
The method of creating high quality steel in furnaces was developed in Sweden, so you'll occasionally see a tool marked "Swedish Steel", again to indicate a premium quality tool.
After a transition period, all steels for tool making were cast steels so the term became less meaningful as a sign of quality and the term generally disappeared as a reference to tool steels.
In modern usage, a cast steel part is a component of a machine that is cast out of steel rather than cast iron, but it doesn't refer to a tool steel.
John W.
John,
Thanks for the information
Having grown up in Wyandotte Mich. I am aware that the first Bessemer process steel in the western hemishere was made in Wyandotte at the Eureka Iron Co., which also made the world's first steel rails for trains, and in the process stripped southern Michigan of its forests tdo make char-coal. Remember this if you exit Detroit Metro onto Eureka road.
Tom
>> ... that 'cast steel' is superior to some modern day materials such as A2.
I have also seen a claim, by some big name in blade making (sorry I can't remember the name), that plain old high carbon steel, if heat treated correctly, could be made sharper than the usual tool steels such as O1 and A2. I can't remember what, if anything, he said about durability, but he said high carbon steel could be treated to be very fine grained, and that the grain size was one of the constraints on sharpness.
I probably read it in FWW, but wouldn't know where to start to find it.
Hi UD,
I think that it was Larry Williams
http://www.planemaker.com
Cheers,
eddie
That's probably a good bet, although I couldn't find it on his site. Certainly it was somebody of that rank.
In a discussion with Ron Hock, he told me that his carbon steel iron will take a sharper edge than his A-2 cyro, but that the A-2 will hold the edge a lot longer. The difference is sharpness is minor. I went with the A-2, as most do.
One thing I love about the niche toolmakers is that when you call, whether to place an order or jsut make inquiry, the "big guy" is likely to answer the phone. Not much is lost in the translation that way. Love my A-2 Hock, BTW; it lives on a square top 604C, and is my everyday smoother.Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
01(oil hardened) and A2(air hardened) are high carbon steels. I think the claim made by Hock blades is that 01 can be sharpened to a finer edge than other more exotic alloys that add wear resistance. I can't tell a difference in the sharpness of a 01 and and A2 blade, nor can I tell the difference in the wear resistance of these two types of steel. I think the differences are almost insignificant, in my experience. I always scoff at the HNT Gordon blades that boast high peed steel (m1) because there is an appreciable difference in the edge that can be obtained in high speed steels due to the introduction of elements that add wear resistance and on a plane, a person needs a very sharp edge to use it effectively.
>> 01(oil hardened) and A2(air hardened) are high carbon steels.
Certainly, but they also contain more or less of manganese, silicon, chrome, vanadium, tungsten, molybdenum, and cobalt.
>> I think the claim made by Hock blades is that 01 can be sharpened to a finer edge ...
You may be right. Hock is one of the names that occurred to me when I was trying to dredge up the author's name. But the way I remember the article, the author specifically said the ideal for sharpness was plain high carbon steel with no alloying elements. (Or no intentionally added alloying elements. There are always traces of other elements.) So the contrast was between plain steel and all tool steels, not between two tool steels.
Of course I could be misremembering what I read. This does happen from time to time.
Uncle Dunc, Is there a point that you are trying to make here? Do you have a preference, and why? What angle of sharpness do you prefer? Is it the same for all woods, and tools or does it change?
I guess I'm wondering, by fine edge, do you mean smaller sharpness angle, or under high resolution microscopy there are less voids in the final edge?
>> ... is there a point that you are trying to make here?
Not really. Just a piece of plane maker's trivia I thought was mildly relevant to the thread topic.
I don't have enough experience sharpening and using planes and chisels to have formed a preference. The story of the legendary Japanese craftsman who hones his plane iron between strokes when doing fine finishing work suggests that there is some merit to a really, really sharp iron, but I'm not likely to reach that level in this lifetime.
My understanding of fineness in the article I read was the smallness of the teeth on the sharpened edge, not the smallness of the included angle.
Hi UD,
No memory lapse there - I recall the same conversation.
Here could be the discussion you're thinking of - I know that Steve Knight thinks that O1 takes the keenest edge.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=12865.32
Cheers,
eddie
Cast steel is still available for the best machinists vises and heavy duty clamps
Unlike the crappola used in import vises,( Cast iron,) cast steel will outlast cast iron by a factor of 40 plusto 1 . It is malleable too, meaning will take hammering without distortion or cracking
Cast steel and malleable iron is used on railroad couplings and journals and anywhere maximum strength and safety is desirable.
Good old Buck Brothers and Butcher brand chisels, also older plane irons were made of cast steel . I think the only modern manufacturer of cast steel blades today is Hock brand. Steinmetz
Today, all of the steel used to make blades in quality tools is what used to be called cast steel. Hock may still use the old fashioned term for advertising purposes, but they are not the only blade maker using cast steel, they all do.
The cast steel, referred to by Steinmetz, that's used in vises and clamps and such, is a different material and gets its name from the fact that the steel is cast into its finished shape in molds. The steel used for these large castings is what is called a mild steel not a sophisticated tool steel.
John W.
Some might say that powder metal is beter than "cast steel."
Where can I find out about powder metal plane irons?
I buy power metal bar stock and make my own irons.
Are you willing to share your source and the designation of the material you buy?
You can search for a source on the internet. I just have a local shop add my order to theirs.
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/highspeed/highspeedapptitle.html
M48 is nice for rough work.
Edited 8/6/2004 1:08 pm ET by GeorgeR
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