I’m struggling with the learning curve on getting my chisels and plane irons sharp. I have been using the scary sharp system and I have been getting better each time I sharpen something. I’m getting a nice burr on the chisels but I’m not sure how to get rid of it properly. Everything I read seams to suggest getting rid of the burr but not how? Maybe I’m the only one that doesn’t know? I have been using a stropping (can that be used as a verb?) action on the high grit sand paper and it seems to reduce the burr, but not eliminate it. I almost picked up some leather and aluminum oxide, but figure why not ask the experts before I spend any money. Also, when I use a strop, do I use a pull stroke while flipping the chisel every time or just on one side?
Thanks much for any advice. It sure would be nice to cut would instead of break it.
Replies
Don't strop! Keep those intersecting surfaces perfectly flat! Stropping is for knives, not chisels and plane blades. The first time you sharpen the tool both the bevel and back should be honed through your entire set of grits. I use diamond stones and finish up on 2500 grit paper adhered to MDF. The burr will shrink as you go to finer grits, and completely fall off somewhere around 1200 grit.
Subsequent sharpenings are different. Work only the bevel first. Start with the appropriate grit for how dull the blade has become. I usually can start on 600 grit. Work the bevel through your grits (600, 1200, then 2500 for me), then finish with a few strokes of the back on only your finest grit. There will be no burr.
It was probably clear - but just to be sure: Other than the first time you sharpen a blade, the only grit that should touch the back is your finest.
Are you honing with a guide or freehand? The key is to keep both bevel and back dead flat. That task is much easier if you use a guide when working the bevel and take care to keep the blade dead flat and balanced well on the abrasive when working the back. It is also important to return the blade to the exact same extension out of the guide every time. I use a stop block to make the angles easy and repeatable.
Hope This Helps, Dave
"Don't strop! Keep those intersecting surfaces perfectly flat! Stropping is for knives, not chisels and plane blades."
DWright,
I agree completely! Stropping should be reserved for knives, not plane irons or bench chisels - because stropping un-flattens the back right at the cutting edge.
To strop a bench chisel or plane iron is to introduce an uncontrolled back-bevel that will require the user to increase the angle at which the iron is introduced to the work. Despite the fact that some plane aficionados prefer to add a micro bevel to the backs of their plane irons, the back bevel created through stropping is anything but precise and can be difficult to reproduce deliberately.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Perhaps they are stropping the beveled edge only.
I strop all the time and would not skip this step for anything. I use oilstones and the compound I use is about the same as my finest stone. But I'm a throwback.
Check out: http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.htm for a guide on how to sharpen your tools.
That said, with Scary Sharp (which I have used before with success) all you need to do is swipe the backs on your 2,000 grit paper (on glass or granite). Horizontal movement, the same as when you polished the backs in the first place. Five to ten strokes more than does it.
You never want anything to touch the backs at a grit lower than the highest grit you used when you initially flattened and polished the backs as has already been said. In other words, never go backwards in grit when de-burring. If you do, you will scratch the backs and have to work your way up in grit again.
Edited 5/25/2005 3:31 pm ET by cstan
Just curious, as the link you gave says to use the smooth side of the leather without any compound, since you're not abrading the iron, just trying to get the microscopic burrs off. I was asking around before, and the (very slight) majority indicated that you want to use the rough side with compound. Can you comment?
It also says if you finish with an 8000 waterstone, there's no need to strop. Perhaps dwright's going to 2500 grit accomplishes the same thing.
I charge the smooth side of leather, contrary to the routine as detailed in the article at the Museum for Woodworking Tools. Very lightly charged I should say. Just barely enough to tint the leather a pale green.
I also have a piece of uncharged leather I use from time to time.
Both pieces are glued down to hard Maple, smooth side up.
I have an unglued strop for gouges and other carving tools.
If you finish with an 8,000 grit waterstone or the very, very fine abrasive sheets that are available there is really no need to strop.
Edited 5/26/2005 7:10 am ET by cstan
cstan,
I've been using the rough side up for at least a year because that is what the book says...but, quite frankly, it doesn't make sense that a rough leather surface would be better than a smooth leather surface. The barber uses the smooth side...and usually gets a razor sharp finish....I'm going to try smooth side up.
I've heard the rough side holds compound better, but the smooth side seems to make more sense. Thanks.
Do you save the uncharged leather for carving tools, or some other specific job?
Just remember to use the compound very sparingly on the smooth side or it will gum up and you will have lumps which are not good. Tranferring compound from finger to strop is probably a better idea than rubbing the compound directly onto the leather from the cake itself. You don't need much when you first charge the leather and you don't have to recharge it often.
When I'm stropping after a sharpening session on stones sometimes I will simply use the uncharged leather to remove the burr. Right off the stones there's not a lot to be gained from the charged strop and I like to keep it free from oil. I don't worry if oil drips on the uncharged leather. But, I'm changeable. I may hit the charged strop if I felt like I didn't stay with the stones quite long enough or if the bevel looks like it could use a little shining up. Just play it by ear and have fun. Use your own judgement.
When touching up a chisel while cutting dovetails or other ticklish stuff I always go to the charged strop. I strop the bevel and the back. Go in one direction only and keep the back flat on the leather.
Somebody who has studied micrographs of honed edges will probably come along and blow my routine out of the water. I don't really care. I do what I do.
Edited 5/26/2005 11:52 am ET by cstan
An old weightlifting belt makes a good strop, btw.
/$.02
Somebody who has studied micrographs of honed edges will probably come along and blow my routine out of the water. I don't really care. I do what I do.
Actually yours is one of the most sensible responses I've heard regarding stropping, and it shows more thought than "that's what I was taught." I asked a long time carver when he stropped a gouge, and he said when it was dull. Ask a silly question...
I guess something about using the rough side just doesn't make sense to me after spending the time to get a nice straight edge. In any case, I've thought about this way too much, so I think I just need to go for it. I have enough leather for a couple strops, so I'll use one charged and one not, and maybe after a few years I'll be able to tell the difference.
Thanks
And I keep it even simpler Charles. I just flip the chisel or plane iron backwards and forwards on the palm of my hand.
The strop's always easy to find being right there on the end of my arm, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
Blue jeans work wonders as well.
This has been one of the most valuable links I have read. Everyone has used different methods (and I have used them all) and they all have their merits. I feel like I just read the textbook chapter for the lab I have done.
I hate to tell you how hard it was to get a straight answer on which side of the leather to use. Even the texts that said that they were telling me which side to use--didn't make it clear or contridicted other experts. Each of you that used the leather, had a very sane reason for your choice. The comments for and against stroping are also valuable. I have to take that lab yet, so I don't have an opinion, but it is nice to have the differing points of view to help me be ready to judge the value of honing or not.
Maybe I can put some of my experience into the mix. I have used the scary-sharp method all the way through the 5 micron Lee Valley mylar film. I found that my chisels were satisfactorily sharp even before using any more than 1000 or 2000 grit wet or dry. They could not cut the hair on my arm, however. I felt that I needed to get to that level. Not because I needed it for my woodworking, but just so I knew what the "ultimate" sharpness was and could use that for comparison. I had a piece of 8 1/2 X 11 felt that I got from JoAnn Fabrics or one of the art supply houses. I charged it with the Lee Valley honing compound (chromium oxide?)
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32984&cat=1,43072
and sharpened a chisel on my motorized turntable (Lee Valley power sharpening system knock-off). I only had to touch it up for about 15 seconds and like magic, it cut the hairs on my arm. So I am there. I can duplicate that sharpness easily at any time. Is that sharpness better than I had before? Is the slight rounding that it must be producing going to create a problem? Only time will tell. That is one of my future lab assignments. I have a piece of leather I got from a saddle maker. The stuff is as hard as hell and I don't think that it would cause any rounding, but I have not used it yet so I don't know if it will create any improvements.
feel like I just read the textbook chapter for the lab I have done...
Gee and I flunked Math and sills got to me a Electrical engineers!
Eric Anderson! My Nephew has that name.. HE IS a COOL MAN.. I love him ALOT!
AND he got a Beautiful wife and Daughter!
Edited 5/29/2005 4:03 pm ET by Will George
I'm happy about your success but must tell you that Scary Sharp should easily shave hair cleanly after about 800 grit. Not that we are barbers, mind you.
I suspect your backs might not have been polished enough.
Eric,
Just want to echo cstan's comments about the back side of the chisel. I had a real breakthrough when I took the back side to the same level of sharpness as the beveled side.
I know you're fond of it Charles, so here goes. Slainte.
A Lesson in Sharpening.<!----><!---->
A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job.
Naturally, the subject is of great interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make valid points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.
1. Those that can’t.
2. Those that can.
In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.
In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant along with a few slips for gouges and the like.
Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Git that piece o’ wood square." I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or thirty minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.
"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"
I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about seventy five per cent of its original volume!)
"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane you’ve bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.
"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.
"Now, can yuh see it? Can yuh see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped off a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.
"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.
"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.
I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."
He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie with me son. If yuh can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron bare-ersed to <!----><!----><!---->London<!----><!----> and back and no cut ma’sel’. Git o’er here an’ I’ll show yuh something."
You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally stropped backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was popped back in the plane, followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.
"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yuh may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. Ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yuh. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yuh started."
For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit, " I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.
"Aye, no too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time will tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yuh cannae even shairpen yer f—in’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."
I haven't.RJFurniture
I do love it. That post opened my eyes a long time ago.
GOOD ONE LOL.. I loved it! But then again I'm strange...
What does sharp look like?
As in.. You came home LATE and did not call her?
Edited 5/31/2005 1:42 pm ET by Will George
Sgian,
I've stropped on my palm, too. (Don't try this if you are unsure of which direction to push the blade!) Also, brown paper is abrasive enough to be just a little more agressive. Maybe the scary sharp advocates would approve of this, if glued to a perfectly flat surface. Sometimes, I'll use the upper of my (leather) shoe. Variety is the spice of life!
Cheers,
Ray
Joinerswork,
The 'brown paper' is okay for a rough finish cept that lumpy glue can get in the way.
It preferable to take a piece of highly polished granite...and shake a bit of pollen from a bees back side on the granite. Don't even attempt this unless your sure you can read the grain in the granite....
I use scary sharp as one part. I work up to 2000 grit, then hit my 8000 grit waterstone and finally strop on leather charged with chromium oxide.
I highy recommend the BIBLE of sharpening - Leonard Lee's book.
I also use the Veritas guide and angle jig. I get a consistent known bevel, then use the offset to put the desired microbevel on.
I also only use a pull stroke - push and you run a risk of having it cut the paper.
First, you need good steel.
Second, you need to know when to stop.
I stop with 600grit wet/dry on all of my tools.
When the tool gets dull (about 1-2 months of 1/2 time use with a HSS tool), I use a extra fine diamond hone (cheap credit card size) to touch up.
I expect that technique is more important than materials.
jd,
As you can see, there are several ways to success. You mentioned that you are continuing to improve. Good. Keep working at it and trying different techniques, subtley (sp?) changing one thing at a time. The results will tell you what you need to know to continue improving. You will soon develop a technique that works for you.
Greg
Listen to cstan. Hes right...
If your are going to strop. go by the Goodwill Thrift Store and buy a leather belt( about $1.50). Buy some Tormeck Polishing Compound too. I use the Tormeck paste on MDF for final polishing on both back and bevel. No problem seeing my reflection.
I almost picked up some leather and aluminum oxide..
Way to go unless ya want to use stones foerver..
My grandpa used a leather strop and something on it..
He would breath on it and if he heard the microbes in his breath scream as when sliced in two as they passed the blade he stopped!
EDIT:
I think he used the strop on my butt a few times too!
I've heard the rough side holds compound better, but the smooth side seems to make more sense...
If I yelled ALOT he started usin' the smooth side!
Edited 5/27/2005 1:56 pm ET by Will George
Edited 5/27/2005 2:04 pm ET by Will George
What does sharp look like? If it's sharp, you can't see it - the edge is invisible.
So many special tools and so much effort is put into sharpening, I wonder if sharpening is an addiction that takes us away from working wood. I've been making my living at this for 35 years, most of it under contract, so I haven't had the luxury to spend more time than necessary to sharpen my hand tools - socket and firmer chisels, carving chisels and knives, plane irons, scrapers. My system works, and it works fast, and I've taught it to quite a few other woodworkers and boatbuilders. My whole sharpening process takes less than five to ten minutes from even the worst edge, and only two or three minutes touch up without any grinding. Time depends on the width of the blade.
I begin with a hollow ground bevel – the angle depends on the cutting tool’s requirements. I do this with a high speed, 8-in-dia. by 1-in-wide, fine grit stone on a bench grinder. My grinder has a near permanent tool rest for about a 28-degree bevel. I use the same grinding method to touch up edges that have been abused or when the micro-bevel becomes too wide and requires too much work. I take it we all know that the micro-bevel is that very narrow portion of the edge that gets sharpened on the flat, bench stone. That's the next step.
I use two oil stones (I've always used WD-40 from a pump sprayer) to hone the micro-bevel - one is a standard, gray/black spotted Arkansas and the other is a much harder, finer, black Arkansas "surgical" stone. Beginning with the Arkansas stone, I pull (never push) the edge on the stone while holding the tool very steady. I do this by locking my elbows against my ribs and then rocking my whole body to move the tool. Doing it this way, I've never needed a special tool to maintain the correct bevel angle. But this takes time to learn, yet it'll become second nature with practice. While honing, I stop frequently to feel if the burr runs clear across the edge. I can't use my eyes, because my 60-yr-old vision couldn't see the burr, but my fingertips can feel it. If the burr is more on the right than the left, I adjust my position and hone some more. When I like the result – the burr even all along the edge, I very lightly hone the back, flat (un-beveled) face. I do this by holding the chisel or plane iron hard against the stone and pull the tool. I do this, flipping the tool back on the bevel and again to the back until the burr all but disappears. Then I go through this same routine on the black Arkansas stone. That stone leaves a microscopic, almost indiscernible burr, which I finally strop from the tool’s edge.
I strop with a brass polish impregnated felt wheel on the other end of my bench grinder. All I do is touch the tool’s edge, front and back, once or twice, to the felt wheel. The polish is only slightly abrasive, and I’ve never noticed even a slight secondary bevel on either face of my tools. At least my tool’s cutting ability has never been affected.
Tool stores are full of sharpening gizmos, but you need only a few: a grinder, a couple of stones, light oil or water, and a felt wheel with polish. To me, the enjoyment is in working with sharp tools, not keeping them sharp – though that’s a small part of it.
Gary W
[email protected]
I am surprised that you have any sense of humor left...
Hell.. it was long ago and he let me stoke the old Coal furnace in the middle of the night to keep the house warm! LOL..
I hardly ever hold a Grudge...
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