Replies

1. 
   jackplane | Mar 12, 2004 03:33pm | #1

   Vertical bits for raised panels are the way I'd go. The spinning mass force is less centrifically based that way than a standard horizontal bit, so it's safer. A good bit will have  an anti- kickback feature, a mass of metal just after the carbide edge, to prevent kickback. Amana is one good brand-there are many others.

1. 
   low48 | Mar 12, 2004 08:08pm | #5

   I disagree. If you want to do alot more sanding on the end grain, go with the vertical panel raiser. It will not cut nearly as well on end grain as will the shearing action of the horizontal cutter. We all did some rejoicing back in the old days when the horizontal bits were invented.

1. 
   jackplane | Mar 12, 2004 08:25pm | #6

   I disagree, my friend.If end-grain tearout is the problem, it might suggest the need to stabilize your panel as you push it through the cutter.Horizontal raised panel bits inherently cause more vibration and safety hazards than the vertical bits.

   To use these bits, I use a taller auxiliary fence and featherboards. The quality of the cut is also determined,like you say wheter or not it has a shearing profile or a standard one.

2. 
   AlanWS | Mar 12, 2004 06:36pm | #2

   If you take a look at this thread: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=16774.1

   you'll see that Pat Warner, one of the more experienced router users and writers around (AKA routerman) is of the opinion that even 3 HP routers should not be used with bits of greater diameter than 1 7/8"; larger cutters belong on shapers.

   That would suggest that if raising panels is to be done on a router table, a vertical bit is preferred. Multiple passes may also be useful, to limit the waste removed at each pass. But you need a very solid way to control your panel while it's on edge, or a horizontal router mount for your table. I suppose you could remove most of the waste with a tablesaw, and then complete the shape with a router.

1. 
   bones | Mar 12, 2004 07:57pm | #4

   Thanks for the information. I have read the thread you mentioned. I will not be making a ton of doors. I consider myself a hobbyist, so making multiple passes will not be a problem for me. I have the PRL so if I use the horizontal bit, I have a very accurate way to move the cutter up in small increments utilizing multiple passes. With the twin-linear, I also have that ability if I use the vertical bits (fence movement left to right). I would think the horizontal would be safer to control due to the large surface area of the table top (to support the panel) .vs. the small surface area of the fence (panel in the vertical position). But reading the thread from routerman, that may not be true. This is why I asked the question. This is a fantastic place for information. 

2. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Mar 13, 2004 07:39am | #14

   Alan,

   My experience in router bits the size of 2" was not pleasant - I was forced to use one (or else!) against my better instincts at 22000rpm and the entire collet assembly plus bit came off the router head at this speed.

   I would suggest that, as you say, use them only as per manufacturer's recommendations.

   Cheers,

   eddie

   Edited 3/13/2004 1:38 am ET by eddie (aust)

3. 
   zacko | Mar 12, 2004 07:26pm | #3

   THIS IS ONLY MY SECOND REPLY ON THIS FORUM BUT THE ADVICE FOUND HERE IS GREAT.

   I CURRENTLY USE  HORIZONTAL PANEL RAISING BITS THAT I PURCHASED YEARS AGO AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A LITTLE LEARY STARTING THE ROUTER FOR THE FIRST TIME AFTER INSTALLING ONE. I TOO HAVE OFTEN WONDERED WHICH ARE BETTER, IT WOULD SEEM THAT THE VERTICALS WOULD FOR SURE BE SAFER. MY ONLY PROBLEM WITH THE VERTICAL BITS IS THAT I LIKE TO MAKE TOMBSTONE SHAPED PANELS AND I HAVEN'T FIGURED A WAY TO ACCOMPLISH THAT YET WITH THE VERTICALS.

1. 
   UncleDunc | Mar 12, 2004 11:38pm | #7

   >> I LIKE TO MAKE TOMBSTONE SHAPED PANELS AND I HAVEN'T FIGURED A WAY TO

   >> ACCOMPLISH THAT YET WITH THE VERTICALS.

   Is that the tombstones with a smooth curve like the ones on this page

   http://www.affordablecustomcabs.com/ACCARCHEDDOORS.html

   or the tombstones with the sharp shoulders, like the one here?

   http://www.merrillsauction.com/images/penn%20walnut%20spice%20chest.jpg

   If you mounted the router horizontally and kept the door panel flat on the table, I think you could use very nearly the same technique with the vertical bit as you're using now. Just because they call it a vertical bit doesn't mean you have to use it vertically. :o) Of course horizontal mounting would require a new router table, or a significant modification to your existing one.

   It looks like the sharp shouldered tombstone would require some hand carving no matter which bit style you use.

   BTW (by the way), you don't have SHOUT here. We can hear you just fine in lower case.

1. 
   MBL | Mar 13, 2004 12:03am | #8

   Friends,

   Have both types but prefer the HORIZONTAL cutter. The panel is easier to handle flat on the table. It's practically the same as using a shaper.

   The differences are readily cared-for by lowering the RPMS to about 10K and cut the panel in 2 or 3 passes., each side, cutting the crossgrain first, and cutting all sides at each cut depth.

   With a HORIZONTAL cutter, the width of cut is fixed by the fence, which does not move. Raising the bit up increase the take of wood.

   With the vertical bit, if one wants to keep a constant cut-width, the depth adjustments would have to be done by relocating the fence, to determine the depth of cut. This precludes the micrometer depth of cut feature of most routers.

   The warnings on use of large diameter cutters is usually meant for HAND-HELD routing operations. Only if the router used at the table is small and does not have a low RPM setting would large diameter cutters be a major factor. The modern horizontal raised-panel cutters have cut-limitting designs, also, unlike older cutters for such purposes.

   It also feels safer to rest the whole panel on the table and to push onto the table than to rest part of the panel and push against the fence. The pushing on the table is done using one or two push- blocks with the horizontal approach, meaning added safety.

   The table surface can be taken as an 'infinite' opposition, and easier to push and glide against, as compared to a fence. Even the tallest fence can not compare to the table surface's support and more proper ergonomics for the operation.

   Edited 3/12/2004 4:04 pm ET by mbl

   Edited 3/12/2004 4:05 pm ET by mbl

   Edited 3/12/2004 4:22 pm ET by mbl

   Edited 3/12/2004 4:23 pm ET by mbl

1. 
   bones | Mar 13, 2004 01:01am | #10

   "The differences are readily cared-for by lowering the RPMS to about 10K and cut the panel in 2 or 3 passes., each side, cutting the crossgrain first, and cutting all sides at each cut depth."

    

   From what speed were you dropping 10k from? 21k?

1. 
   MBL | Mar 13, 2004 01:52am | #11

   Dear Bones,

   With the P.C. 7518 the speed would be 10 or 13 thousand RPM's, which is near what shapers do.

   Have no problems also with the Bosch 1618 EVS at speed setting 2, or so.

   The speed is set low initially and it is not adjusted or dropped from high to low. It is set constant.

2. 
   bones | Mar 13, 2004 02:59am | #12

   Thanks for the clarification.

3. 
   MBL | Mar 13, 2004 05:37am | #13

   Dear Bones,

   Another clarification volunteered:

   The push-blocks are rubber based. No need to make them. Mason's trowel floats will do. They have a steel base which is rubber-padded. Check the rubber for stiffness and hardness (not too soft) and that it would grip well the board being pushed. They are not expenssive and are very useful also at the table saw.

   I use two of those. On one of them, an added 3/4" wide X 1/4" thick oak heel at the trailing end of the trowel grabs the panel being routed at its trailing edge. The oak strip heel is glued with marine goo glue, plus screwed into the steel plate. The other trowel is used just as off-the-shelf. The hands do not touch the panel during the routing operation with this approach. It gets good control and both push-down and pull force.

   Good luck.

   mbl

2. 
   zacko | Mar 13, 2004 12:23am | #9

   Sorry about the shouting, the network server here is case sensitive when using certain modules such as job tracking and purchasing etc., and I am just used to seeing caps.

   Anyway, the first type of panels are the ones. I have thought about mounting up a horizontal mount for use with vertical bits, but I have already installed a router lift into my table.  Hmmm, maybe this could justify another table?

4. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 13, 2004 11:19am | #15

   As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the development of vertical raised panel bits was a response by router bit manufacturers to the problem of underpowered routers being fitted with large diameter bits, e.g., horizontal raised panel bits. The large diameter bits need to be spun slower to keep the peripheral speed of the cutter down, just as large diameter sawblades on big saws spin much slower than typical 10" diameter blades fitted to US style contractor/cabinet saws.

   For reasons of safety, I won't fit a bit with a diameter greater than 50 mm (2") in a router designed for hand use, even if the router is inverted and fixed in a table, and especially not for hand use. Bits of this size and over belong in big machines, e.g., fixed overhead pin routers with powerful motors and shaft speed adjustments.

   When you get to this size of bit you're in the grey area between what belongs on a router, and tooling that more properly belongs on a spindle moulder or shaper. Large router bits can be fitted on a spindle moulder as long as the moulder has an adaptor allowing such bits to be installed and has a suitable range of speeds. Personally, I can't see the point of fitting this type of router bit to a spindle moulder-- you're much better off buying more expensive tooling designed for use in the machine. 

   Anyway, back to router bits, if you only need to raise a few panels on an occasional basis that are straight on all edges and you only have a medium sized router, ~2 hp then you're almost certainly best to go with a vertical pattern bit.

   If you have a ~3 hp router then you can spin a large horizontal pattern bit with adequate safety and available power for a small run of panels, but I consider you're getting close to the  limit of available power and safety. They can be used in conjunction with jigs or fixtures on the table to guide the bit. Additionally, if you plan to create arched top panels of some sort the horizontal pattern bits are much the more convenient and better tool for the job, even though some arched patterns require hand work to create sharp corners where the bit won't reach-- as ever.

   Anything beyond occasional use of large diameter bits with fixed inverted hand held type routers for a small run (of door panels, etc.) then it's time to buy a spindle moulder and gear up for the job with appropriate tooling. Most, but not all people that own a spindle moulder are in business and it wouldn't generally make sense to raise panels with a router and router bit if you own a spindle moulder. Slainte.

   RJFurniture

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/13/2004 3:26 am ET by Sgian Dubh