Replies

1. 
   johnhardy | Jan 11, 2003 03:19am | #1

   I've never heard of thinning a finish like this with alcohol.

   John

2. 
   Gretchen | Jan 11, 2003 03:43pm | #2

   have begun wiping with Watco satin poly. Have one coat applied and is not smooth.

   If the Watco is full varnish you don't have enough wiped on coats yet. If by "not smooth" you mean "streaky" you may not have kept the satin finish stirred well enough so that the flatteners are kept in suspension.  In my experience the first several coats of wiped on varnish (a 50/50 dilution) are not even attractive--the finish needs to build before it looks good.

   Varnish is not thinned with alcohol--mineral spirits or naphtha.

   Gretchen
1. 
   woodshoplast | Jan 11, 2003 04:07pm | #3

   Actually its poly. been reading the postings about Varnish versus Poly and am considering changing to Varnish. Will I need to sand off the wipe on Poly? thanks, Arnold

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jan 11, 2003 06:50pm | #4

   Watco "Danish Oil" is not as durable as varnish and is not the best choice on a surface that will see a lot of wear. Watco "Wipe-On Poly" is a durable finish.

   Polyurethane is a type of varnish. It contains urethane resins that are tougher than the standard resins found in other varnishes. For a high wear surface, or for added protection against heat and household chemicals, polyurethane is a good choice.

   Could you define "not smooth?" There is no obvious reason to start over or switch products; you may have an application problem or just a "normal" condition at this point. A very light sanding with 320 grit paper between cured coats of polyurethane (or any finish) is normal practice to smooth the surface before applying another coat of finish. This may be all that you need at this point.

   The thinner for Minwax polyurethane is mineral spirits (paint thinner) unless you have "Polycrylic." The thinner for Polycrylic is water. Alcohol is the thinner (and solvent) for shellac.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

4. 
   HowardAcheson | Jan 11, 2003 09:56pm | #5

   As one who participated in the discussion you refer to, I can understand your confusion. Let me try to say things in a simple way.

   First, Watco makes both a "Danish Oil" product and a newly marketed "Thinned wiping varnish." They are two separate and different products. The Danish Oil is an oil/varnish that is applied to wood that does not have a finish already applied to it. The "Thinned Wiping Varnish" is a standard varnish that is thinned for wiping and can be applied directly over your dewaxed shellac.

   Second, when using the Watco Wiping Varnish, you are creating very thin films of finish. It takes between two to three coats of a wiping varnish to be equivalent to one full strength, brushed on, coat of standard varnish. So, you are just getting started with the wiping varnish. You will need to apply 5-6 coats in total. The first couple of coats may not look too nice but it will get better as you apply more coats. Stay with what you have, do not change horses at this point. Also, as Paul has said, poly is varnish. It's a varnish that has had polyurethane added to it to make it more scratch and heat resistant. In other words, you are already using varnish so there is nothing to be gained by changing to someelse.

   If the surface is not smooth, let it fully cure for at least 48 hours and then lightly sand it with 400 grit sandpaper. Vacuum off the dust, wipe with a rag dampened with mineral spirits and apply the wipeon per the directions on the can.

   As others have said, alcohol is not a solvent for varnish.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/11/2003 2:01:10 PM ET by Howie

1. 
   woodshoplast | Jan 12, 2003 05:31pm | #6

   HOWIE, GRETCHEN50, PAUL S couldn't figure out how to put all names in "to" section

   I carefully reread all the Varnish discussion and better understand now. Not to say completely, but better. I have two coats on now and looks some better. By not smooth I meant there appears to be scars or low spots with jagged edges in some places. Kind of looks like an Ariel view of a small lake or pond, although empty because its an indentation not a high spot. Maybe I'm putting it on so thin that spots are not getting covered. I'm going to continue with the product but did not sand after the first coat. I have this White abrasive pad (which I understand is the finest, even finer than #0000 steel wool) is this a satisfactory replacement for 400 grit paper? I used the orbital sander with this pad to rub out the shellac after the third coat. Since poly is going on so thin do I need to sand after every coat? Also since is going so slow think I'll get a small sponge, soak it with poly, wrap the sponge with a thin piece of tee shirt and wipe on. Should be able to press down and squeeze out enough material to cover entire piece and not stop to reload rag. That stopping to reload may be causing the scars or empty ponds. Am putting on hold until I know better how I should proceed. Appreciate your help, thanks again. Arnold 

1. 
   Gretchen | Jan 12, 2003 08:16pm | #7

   Since poly is going on so thin do I need to sand after every coat? Also since is going so slow think I'll get a small sponge, soak it with poly, wrap the sponge with a thin piece of tee shirt and wipe on. Should be able to press down and squeeze out enough material to cover entire piece and not stop to reload rag

   In my opinion you are making this much harder than it needs to be.  Just dip a rag in the wiping varnish and wipe on your furniture. Try to be complete but if you miss a spot you'lll get it on the next coat.  Let dry to touch and put on another coat--maybe in a couple of hours.  Don't sand between coats yet.  Apply 3-4 coats, then let dry overnight and LIGHTLY sand.  Wipe off carefully with mineral spirits and apply more coats of wiping varnish. Since you are using satin be very careful to fully mix the varnish since the flattening agents may settle out which will give you a sort of glossy varnish.  The finish must build a bit before it will look like what you envision--the first few coats (as several of us have said) are thin and do not look particularly good.The method you mentioned--sponge, etc. --could really be a recipe for disaster I think.  Don't give up.  It is really a foolproof method.Gretchen

1. 
   woodshoplast | Jan 12, 2003 09:46pm | #8

   10-4 , I'll do that and in a week or so I'll let you know how it turms out. Thanks, Arnold

2. 
   Splintie | Jan 12, 2003 10:15pm | #9

   I have this White abrasive pad (which I understand is the finest, even finer than #0000 steel wool) is this a satisfactory replacement for 400 grit paper? I used the orbital sander with this pad to rub out the shellac after the third coat. Since poly is going on so thin do I need to sand after every coat?

   No, a nylon pad on an orbital sander is not a replacement for a piece of sandpaper on a block. This is most likely why your "craters" developed, from the heat of the pad pulling up finish.

   I use both nylon pads and sandpaper in my finishes, but one is not a replacement for the other. For leveling a finish and knocking the nibs off, use sandpaper on a rubber block. For getting an even sheen, use a nylon pad (or steel wool).    

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jan 12, 2003 11:18pm | #10

   Arnold - applying a wipe-on finish is like washing a table top or counter with a wet rag. You get the rag wet enough to wet the whole surface without causing puddles, runs, sags, or streams flowing off the sides. It takes about the same amount of time - seconds.

   You can use a container with a wide opening and submerge the rag in the wipe-on finish, wring it out so it's not dripping, and wipe one area at a time. Or, you can pour a puddle in the middle of the flat surface you are working on and spread it evenly over the whole surface.

   When applying the finish using the wipe-on technique, you can add another coat, without sanding, just as soon as the previous coat is dry to the touch. Its a good idea to wipe-on at least 3-4 coats in a day. Let these coats dry overnight, sand lighty until smooth, remove the dust, and wipe-on 3-4 more coats. Let these dry overnight, sand lighty, remove the dust, wipe-on the last coat.

   White scotchbrite is too fine - it's good for polishing. I like sandpaper or sanding sponges because they work faster to level and smooth the surface (actually I like 3M sanding sponges by far). I use gray or maroon scotchbrite on lacquer or shellac (in some situations), but not on varnish and polyurethane.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

5. 
   Crunk | Jan 13, 2003 04:44am | #11

   Why are you applying poly over the shellac?  If you like poly, you could have gone straight to that.  Could you explain further?  You may be making this harder than it needs to be.

1. 
   woodshoplast | Jan 13, 2003 04:30pm | #12

   The shellac was to give a little color althugh I used ultra blond.  I would have used the orbital sander with pad without your warning. I'll get some 400 sandpaper. thanks to all, I'm learning. agriffee