What sharpening books have a section on preparing and using a card scraper? I read the FWW article but would like a few more details and illustrations.
The card scraper I bought at Rockler is labeled “Bahco 474-150-080 Made in Sweden” (although the clerk said it is the same as a Sandvik scraper). No instructions on how to prepare it for use, but the pictures indicated that I should pull the scraper towards me, never away from me.
This is the opposite of what FWW said, so I’m going to the library to get some books on sharpening tools. Any recommendations?
Janet
Edited 3/18/2007 7:13 pm by jyang949
Replies
I learned from Tage Frid. I'm sure his instruction are in his book. He was a frugal guy and liked to use the corner of a chisel. I prefer a good burnisher. It is really a two-step process: creating a smooth, square edge (on a stone), and rolling a burr (with a burnisher). If you are getting wispy curls, you have it right. If you get sawdust, you either have a dull edge or got it wrong.
I don't own a stone; the closest are ceramic rods (pencil thickness) for sharpening kitchen knives. Chisels get the sandpaper-on-glass treatment. I could rub the scraper against a file--would that be fine enough?janet
Edited 3/18/2007 7:13 pm by jyang949
A good Nicholson 10" smooth double cut will work fine.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
No, you really need to smooth them on a stone. I have a personal bias against sandpaper for sharpening, I think sandpaper is for wood, but that’s just me. I too learned from Tage Frid, his books have section on scrapers. I use an old round shank screwdriver as a burnisher.
Napie,
My grandmother always said "it's good if you like it". I went to sandpaper when the Veritas MK II was introduced. Since, everything I sharpen is a real joy to use.
I got everything looking like a mirror. Now, I just hit one a few liks by hand on sandpaper and she's ready to go.
I know, it is just me, I hate jigs, (that’s cheating), and just do not get the sandpaper thing for sharpening. But then, my grandfather taught me to sharpen and I still use the <!----><!----><!---->Arkansas<!----><!----> oil stones I inherited from him.
I love cheating. I'm 66 and have more I want to do than I have time:>) I even use a machine for dovetail at times, LOL. I won't even buy a green banana.
My setup is a piece of granite left from my countertops. I bought the paper from Highland Hardware and go up to 1500.
AH, so that is how Noah ! built the Ark ,Iwas his apprentice 5yrs, we had plenty of sand but alas no paper/sand is for the painter please ~~please don't
Munchkin,
Maybe I do not know how to read and comprehend. Maybe your post was not serious.
Sandpaper has it's place. Scrapers have their place. Planes have their place. Sandpaper is my least favorite.
Sandpaper for sharpening with a jig or for touch up is really great for many, coolbreeze included. Noah was not perfect, you know. If he were, we'd still have unicorns.
Coolbreeze,After your recommendation I am strongly tempted to buy the Veritas MK II. Just to make sure we're talking about the same product: Do you mean the honing guide with the roller (pic attached)?Janet
Janet,
That is the one. If you like a slight radius on your blade(s) you may also want to get the roller for that. You simply rock the guide as you stroke.
I use a 6X12X1 granite piece left from my countertop. You can also go to a business that sells granite and they most likely will let you pick out a piece from their scrap bin. If you can's find granite, I recommend you use 3/8 glass. In an article in FWW the writer used three pieces of glass. Personally, I do not see the value as I do not want my roller on the paper. The stroke is not long and I just work it from side to side as I hone.
Good luck. You should see mirror like bevels on your blades. A little flattening on the back and your blades will rival anything anyone can do on stones.
Cool
BTY, the jig is easy to use. You simply set it for the width of the blade and the degree of bevel and go to work. It also has a microbevel feature if you like to do micro's
Edited 3/28/2007 3:42 pm ET by coolbreeze
Sharpening a scraper is different from a regular edge tool in that the final edge is burnished (sort of like bending a microscopic hook or burr into the edge) rather than ground. You do need to get a very smooth square edge before you burnish it to get the best hook. The following article covers the basics:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00007.asp
Bahco is Sandvik.
I always push card scrapers. I can only think the reference to pulling referred to scrapers on handles.
Pete
Edited 3/18/2007 9:17 pm ET by PeteBradley
Janet, just take the time to look at the Lee Valley site on line. Look at the scraper tools for sharpening and THEIR TECH INSTRUCTIONS , it is a compendium of sharpening knowledge. At a minimum you need a high quality fine cut file and a hardened steel rod and you are good to go. Their other tools just make it soooo easy. Pat
Janet
Leonard Lee covers scraper sharpening in his book on sharpening, available from Lee Valley.
As far as the push or pull being right or wrong, if you get shavings instead of dust, then whatever you are doing will work. It is physically easier, however, to hold a scraper in two hands, the thumbs in the middle of the tool, and the fingers pulling back on the ends to give the scraper the slight curve that helps shaving to curl instead of dust to form as you push the tool. You will definitely do some pulling, usually one handed, to get into tight corners and spaces.
By the way, using only a file to sharpen a scraper is equivalent to using a freshly ground chisel without honing it afterwards. JL
>> using only a file to sharpen a scraper is equivalent to using a freshly ground chisel without honing it afterwards <<Jeanlou,I was planning to use the file first, then switch to the sandpaper-on-glass. Or perhaps it would be file, ceramic rods, then sandpaper--assuming the scraper doesn't rip up the sandpaper. Just trying to avoid buying an expensive stone to prepare a $5 scraper!Janet
Edited 3/19/2007 10:33 am by jyang949
Janet:
I don't think ceramic rods will do the trick. The idea is to get a smooth edge, absolutely straight along the length of the tool. I don't think this can be done with a rod. They work fine for kitchen knives, but kitchen knives don't have to be straight -- and usually aren't!
Although I usually hone, I've had good success using just a file, but you have to be sure it's square to the sides of the scraper and take a long, smooth cut. A good burnisher helps, but the back of a gouge will work fine, or any hardened tool edge -- even a good screwdriver or the shank end of a large drill bit. The real trick is learning how to turn an edge. It takes much less pressure than you might think at first. This is one of those areas where it helps to have someone show you how it's done and what to expect when you got it right. You might see if someone at the store where you bought the tool (and where you will buy an inexpensive stone to hone the edge <G>) knows how this is done and will demonstrate for you.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Janet
...then buy one of the inexpensive, very ordinary oil stones that people usually avoid because they are not expensive enough...it doesn't need to cost a lot to be good.
You could do the flat faces on sandpaper, but it is when you do the edge that I expect you will mangle the sandpaper. You could remove the points of the scraper, which would then be kinder to the sandpaper. (save 2 points, because they really come in handy sometimes) JL
I may not do it correctly, but I'm getting fairly good results doing either what I read from Lee Valley or made up...If necessary, file the scraper to 90 degrees, straight, true, all that. Then, to burnish the edge, I just give it a few swipes with the round shaft of a screwdriver. That way, I don't buy anything...although the LV 90 degree file thing would probably come in handy.
This is how I was using a scraper till I watched the Tage Frid DVD I got with the book collection. In the video he shows how to sharpen and use a scraper and make a point of telling the audience that "you should never put a bow in the scraper, hold it flat and pull it towards you. Putting a bow in the scraper puts a slight scallop in the surface which you don't want". These are his words and instructions, not mine, although I took them to heart and changed how I was using a scraper. I'm not the expert, but have no doubt Tage Frid is. I was using my thumbs to put a bow in the scraper and pushing it. Now I hold it flat at an angle and pull it towards me. Seems just as easy and I get good results with the flat technique.
Jeff
I thought the curve was important to the process. In fact, I chose this single scraper instead of a more versatile assortment because it was easier to flex. Still, what Tage Frid said makes sense in that the sharp corners will be leading, which would make gouging likely unless you tipped them up off the wood. That would account for the scallop groove.Did Mr. Frid say it was okay to push the flexed scraper away from you, or was he against flexing it at all? The package illustrations seem to indicate keeping the scraper flat.Janet
OK, you made me get the book out. He says more in the book than he does in the video. In fact, Chapter 2 of Book 2 (3 volume set titled Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking) is entirely dedicated to the topic of scrapers.
In the video, he made a point of saying keep the scraper flat. and pull it towards you. In the book, he says you can push or pull the scraper, he advises pulling it will give you more control and is the only technique advised for finish work. When pushing the scraper, put a slight bow in it with your two thumbs but only use this method when doing rough work such as removing glue, paper, or old finish. Bowing the scraper gives you a narrow cutting edge and chip and as already stated, does not produce a flat cut surface. Keeping the scraper flat uses the entire edge for cutting and produces a full width chip. Again, this is what he says in Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking: Book 2: Shaping, Veneering, Finishing; Chapter 2 - Scrapers.
These are not my opinions, I'm only quoting what I saw on the video and read in Frids' book. Hope it helps. It made me change MY methods. I've found his teachings to be effective.
Jeff
Jeff
Different techniques for different folks. It depends what you are scraping. You do not need to put a strong radius on the scraper, only a slight bow. If you push too hard, the scraper gets very hot, and your thumbs will let you know.
I would never argue with a master, but I will also never negate what I learned from mine over the years. I sometimes pull a flat scraper, but I also push, and I do not get furrows in the finish. You simply need to work with feeling and understanding of what it is you are doing. JL
Different strokes...I don't disagree. You are right, you don't need to put a strong radius in the scraper to use it. However, someone new that doesn't have any experience and doesn't have the scraper prepared correctly, might put a good bow in one in the mistaken belief that it is what is necessary to get it to cut (not having turned a good burr).
Since I had not been using a scraper long, it wasn't a big deal for me to change my technique when I watched the video and was taught (lets call it) the traditional technique. Frid served an apprenticeship in his youth and I have a LOT of respect for the old apprenticeship programs. My inexperience with scrapers is also why I was clear in saying that I was repeating Frid's material and technique, not my opinion. I haven't been using a scraper long enough to have a strong opinion on it's use. Frids technique is working quite well for me. His logic for his technique also seems well thought out and no doubt it's why they teach it that way as well, so I think I'll keep using it 'his' way...
If it's working for you, I wouldn't change a thing. Like they say, if it's not broke, don't fix it...
Regards,
Jeff
Janet
Here is a pictorial tutorial I wrote some time back: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=22508
The card scraper I bought at Rockler is labeled "Bahco 474-150-080 Made in Sweden" (although the clerk said it is the same as a Sandvik scraper). No instructions on how to prepare it for use, but the pictures indicated that I should pull the scraper towards me, never away from me.
This is the opposite of what FWW said, so I'm going to the library to get some books on sharpening tools. Any recommendations?
The answer is that you can use a card scraper both ways. What must be realised is that when you push away from, your thumbs will be creating a deeper curve in the blade than when you are pulling the blade towards yourself. The blade curvature translates into planing (scraping) a similar shape into the timber surface. If you want a flat surface, then pushing a card scraper with a large camber (loads of thumb pressure on a flexible blade) will be bad news - you will find these "furrows" when you apply the finish! This is a time to pull the card scraper towards oneself, so minimising this threat. Tage Frid made this point as well.
On the other hand, if you want to remove a small section of tearout, a deeply cambered scraper blade is ideal. Then push the cardscraper.
One can get card scrapers of different thickness, which translates into different stiffness. A stiff piece of steel will not bend much and this may then be pushed with less fear. Try using a wide (reversed) chisel as a scraper. These work very well. Just be aware that a flat edge has corners, and these can leave tracks, so these may benefit from being releaved.
One last point - I often prepare 8 sides on a scraper blade: turning a burr on the side of each face, plus the ends as well. The narrow ends are great for areas where you want a flat edge.
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi,
Here is a link to an excellent video with Brian Boggs showing how to sharpen a card scraper:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=5233
Jeff
Janet,
As others have mentioned, Leonard Lee's book has good info on scraper prep, as does, IIRC, Tom Lie-Nielsen's sharpening book.
Here's some words to go along with Derek's excellent sharpening photo essay:
A Technique for Preparing Card Scrapers for Use:
(This assumes that you are using a rectangular card scraper and are putting a burr on both sides of both long edges -- 4 burrs total. If you want to put a burr on all edges, then just repeat the appropriate steps as necessary for those additional edges. Card scrapers of other shapes follow the same general procedures.)
1) If this is a new scraper, you can probably skip this step. If not, use a file to remove all of the burrs already on the scraper: lay the scraper flat on your bench and file flat against the edges of the flat sides to remove the burr(s).
2) Put your scraper in a vice (if you're using a metal vice, you might want to protect the scraper with wooden or leather jaw protectors) with one of the user edges facing up.
3) File one of the long thin edges with a fine cut file, so that it is flat and smooth. Flip the scraper over and repeat for the other long edge.
4) Smooth both long thin edges on a sharpening stone (oil, water, diamond -- it doesn't make much difference; just be careful not to wear a groove into your stone; or you can use a "scary sharp" type system with sand paper and a flat surface). You want them smooth, polished, and square to the flat sides of the scraper
5) Now smooth the "flats" of your scraper along the edges you just smoothed on your sharpening stone. Again, you're looking for a square, smooth, polished surface.
6) On a flat surface, use the burnisher to create an initial burr by pushing the burnisher toward the edge of the scraper, so that the burr sticks up past the edge parallel to the flat side of the scraper.
7) Put the scraper back in your vice, with one of the smoothed and polished "user" edges up. Now push a burnisher at about 15° off horizontal (the exact angle is not all that important, but a consistent angle is: a slightly different angle -- say 13° or 17° -- will work just about as well) along the entire edge to draw a burr on one side of the edge; you may have to draw the burnisher across the edge several times (3 to 6 times seem to be about average for my scrapers; you may need fewer or more strokes) to get an even burr. You want to push the burnisher across the edge with a moderately light but firm downward pressure. As far as possible (this may take a couple of times practice to get it down), you want the burr as even as possible and across the entire length of the edge.
A couple of notes on this process:
You can tell pretty accurately with your finger tips how even your burr is, but be careful not to slice them while testing it!!
Be careful not to slice your fingers while pushing the burnisher -- DAMHIKT.
Your burnisher can be a purpose-built one or a smooth hardened steel rod -- a smooth screwdriver shaft works perfectly well; smooth and harder than the scraper are what's important. IIRC, most scrapers are hardened to around Rc 48 - 52.
8) Repeat step #7 on the other 3 sides of the (long) edges. Your scraper is now ready to go.
Notes on Using a Card Scraper:
To use, hold in both hands and use your thumb(s) to press the centre of the scraper forward just a bit. Tilt the top of the scraper forward about 15° (this angle may vary) and push forward. You should get shavings; if not, adjust the angle forward or backward until you get nice fluffy shavings. As the burr dulls and wears away, you can extend its working life by increasing the forward angle of the scraper.
The easiest way to tell whether you have a good burr and are at the "right" scraping angle is that you will get shavings (just like from a hand plane, only finer and smaller). If you get dust, either your burr is not yet properly formed, your scraper angle needs to be higher or lower, or your burr is worn down and dull.
Scrapers can be pushed or pulled.
A scraper holder saves a lot of wear and tear on your hand and thumbs. Veritas makes a very nice scraper holder (it's a bit spendy); one can also be made in your shop from scrap wood and a thumb screw.
Scrapers get hot -- sometimes real hot -- during use.
While scraping, be careful not to scrape a dip into your surface.
Scrapers can be used to smooth the edges of boards as well as the faces. With a little bit of file work, you can also fabricate shop-made profiled scrapers that will smooth things like moldings, etc. (You can use old card scrapers, old saw blades, and mild sheet steel, for example, for making profiled and other scrapers.)
Hope that this helps you. If you have questions about specifics, feel free to ask. Scrapers are great tools that will give you a very, very nice surface quality, and will tame woods and grain that nothing else (except sand paper) will even touch. Every tool box should have at least one card scraper in it!
.
Tschüß!
James
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
James
How've you been. We haven't chatted in a while. Good post. She should be able to follow those very good instructions. Card scrapers can be tricky to learn how to sharpen initially. But, once you get the hang of it, they are a piece of cake. I'm like Derek, I suppose. I polish all the edges, and burnish each intersection all at once. Then, I tape the edges not in use at the moment with blue tape just to keep from slicing my fingers up. Whatever! This is what works for me.
Take it easy.
Jeff
Edited for ignorance, 3/19/07.
Edited 3/19/2007 7:34 pm ET by JeffHeath
For what it's worth, I think this (the crap I'm about to spew) can be added to the discussion. Some have already stated it, but clarifying it may help someone new to card scrapers understand the "why", instead of just the "what".
A card scraper can be filed and burnished right away, but the burr is weak, and will fail quickly, because it is serrated. I would have to say that this is not the proper way to sharpen a scraper. Preparation of the scraper before turning the burr is the most important part. It allows you, in use, to very quickly re-turn the burr if the scraper becomes dull, and get right back to work. Honing both sides of the edge like you would a chisel, to a nice polish, takes a little extra time initially, but saves a bucket load of time over the next 6 or 7 re-sharpenings, as you won't have to go through all the steps again, and can burnish, and get right back to work.
Just my .02.
Jeff
Jeff,
Thanks for the kind words. 'Spose I fergot ta mention that I majored in plagiarism in college.... ;-) Actually, that post is a compilation of things I learned the hard way and from people on this and other WW forums. About the best I can claim is to have put it together in one place....
I agree that they're easy once you know how to prep them; it's just getting past that initial learning curve....
Been doing well, enjoying the balmy Spring weather here (up in the high 70s for the past couple of days...), getting a few minor things done in the shop, teaching a class, and prepping for a couple of others.
How's things in Chicagoland? Take care and keep in touch!
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
James
I was just joshing, my friend! Certainly hope you weren't taking me seriously.
All is well in Chicagoland. We've survived another winter, and now we get to stare out at the mud and brown turf, at least until the grass wakes up again.
Talk at ya!
Jeff
Edited 3/19/2007 7:39 pm ET by JeffHeath
I do my edges on sandpaper all the time. I put a block of wood with a square edge, slightly longer than the sandpaper down and run my scraper against it to maintain a true 90* edge. The block has the added benefit of keeping the sandpaper flat and thus preventing it from tearing.One important, oft missed step is "drawing the burr" (see Mr. Cohen's reply for the method) this step gives you a work-hardened edge and also gives you a burr without which the "Turning the burr" phase becomes more difficult. I say oft missed because it is frequently omitted in sharpening instructions (Last card scraper I bought from lee valley had an instruction sheet which didn't include that step. Strange, seeing as Mr. Lee included it in his book on sharpening.........)Hope this helps,
Nat
Jeff,
<<I was just joshing, my friend! Certainly hope you weren't taking me seriously. >>
Not at all; I figured that if you were gonna pull my chain, I'd just have ta pull back on yours... ;-)
Cheers!!
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Woo-hoo! I did it! Okay, I admit that my shavings are not as impressive as Derek's. Still, they are curls, not sawdust. Thank you for all the information.Q. Did you notice that in the FWW article, Phil Lowe does not make an initial burr that then needs turning? He combines the burr forming and turning into one step.Q. I know that the burnisher is held 80°–90° to the edge to provide downward pressure, but what direction does it travel: Parallel to the edge, or diagonally so it pushes in the direction of the curve? Diagonal travel would require a longer burnisher. Janet
Edited 3/21/2007 4:35 pm by jyang949
first time using a scraper........I do mini woodworking..........any advice ?
first time using a scraper........I do mini woodworking..........any advice ?
Use a mini scraper. :)
Actually, I am only half joking. Make small scrapers out of sections of old saw blades or even cut up a full size scraper.
Use a chisel as a scraper (reverse the blade).
For a mini scraper plane, reverse the blade in a HNT Gordon Palm Smoother, Mujingfang mini smoother or, for a really tiny one, the (new) LV "Little Victor" block plane. I demonstrate the last one at:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/littleVictor/littleVictor1.asp
Regards from Perth
Derek
I appreciate your humor !! "LOL" Thanks for the fast reply.......probably the best thing for me to do is to use a very small chisel as a "mini-scraper".
I have found that the same methods in fine woodworking can be applied to miniature furniture.
Read your article on the "little victor" It was very informative.
Greetings from St.Louis, MO
Derek and Miniwood and All
I posted this idea yesterday and now can not see it so I will suggest again:
Freshly cut glass works well as a scraper" 1/8 or 3/16 inch thick glass with no work done to edge after the the cutter pass is done and the piece of glass is snapped off. Be careful of the hands, please, if anyone wants to try this. Protecting the other edges with tape is not a bad idea.
It has gotten me out of many a pickle when I did not have my scraper handy. JL
"Freshly cut glass works well as a scraper"
I saw this practice in use in the Williamsburg cabinet maker's shop.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike
I was shown this when I was an apprentice helping out on an installation site. The lead hand had forgotten his scraper at our shop, so he asked the glazer who happened to be on site at the same time to cut him a few pieces of scrap glass...it did a beautiful job. JL
You should be able to get a feel for using the scraper without any prep to it. Angle and push it with the grain. It will work w/o burnishing, just not well. You're going for shavings and not just sawdust.
Problems with burnishing can be associated with trying too hard. As stated elsewhere, it takes only a few strokes, and it's surprising how the oil facilitates the process.
There's no magic behind bending the scraper. In effect, you're lifting the scraper off the wood except at the curve. So your pressure is concentrated in a small area. You can, though, inadvertently create a trough if you're not careful.
Among other things, the scraper is great when planing stock whose grain reverses, as you can scrape 180 degrees toward your planning.
Why aren't scrapers more popular than sandpaper? Janet
Janet
I think it is because a scraper requires sharpening and honing...sandpaper works out of the box. JL
...and there is a skill level involved in scraping that has a steeper learning curve than the skill level in sanding.
Edited 3/23/2007 7:31 pm ET by jeanlou
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