As some of you may have read recently, I’m looking for a jointer (8in). Obviously would like to get a good quality used model but that is very unlikely. I’m ok with buying new and am considering three… General (both international and canadian), Delta DJ20 (X5 series) and the Powermatic. Powermatic is by far the least expensive and actually appears to have slightly better features. Delta is X5 series, so lots of promotional add-ons as well as 5yr warrenty. The General Int falls in the middle and the Canadian version is by far the most expensive. Any thoughts/favorites/concerns. Let me know ASAP, locally they are having a sale on all models, would like to take advantage of it before steel prices rise again.
Replies
Didn't we just go through this a week or so ago -- or was that someone else?
I've never been disappointed with Delta. Can't say the same about Powermatic, although they are pretty on the outside.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I'd go for the one with the parallelogram tables myself. I've worked on many a jointer over 35 years and seen a lot of dovetailed ways with problems over time. The parallelogram is the tried and true way of the high quality import jointers such as Martin, SCMI. With a dovetailed way machine you sometimes can shim the table back into alignment. If not then the whole bed must be ground with the machine complete. With the paralleogram design you can take off the problem table and replace it or have it ground and put it back on and adjust the machine. Tables can warp over time. Perhaps sped up by storing in an unheated location for a spell or the iron wasn't seasoned correctly. A flat table today doesn't guarantee a flat table in the future.
I see the Powermatic PJ882 eight-inch Parallelogram Jointer is available but I'm guessing you are not looking at that one because you are talking low price. The Delta parallogram has been proven pretty successful over the years and the 5 year warrantee is one of the strongest out there.
If you compare the bases on a dovetail ways model on the inexpensive jointers versus the parallelogram design you will notice the paralleogram base is longer and supports the length of the tables better. On the dovetailed ways models there is a lot of table hanging out there.
Edited 11/10/2004 10:37 am ET by rick3ddd
wow! thanks for the input, I guess I don't know dovetail ways versus parallelagram. What exactly is that and how do I know what a company uses? Powermatic states dovetail but many don't.
Parallelogram means you can adjust the four corners of the each table.
The DJ-20 X5 is a parallelogram. The Delta 8" so called professional is dovetailed ways. A parallelogram set up has a much longer base support than a dovetailed ways type in the 6 and 8" jointers.
The Powermatic PJ882 eight-inch Parallelogram Jointer has a suggested retail price of $1850. The other PMs are dovetailed.
If they don't say parallelogram it must be dovetailed ways. The Generals are dovetailed ways. The better Grizzlys are parallelogram. It obviously costs more to make parallelogram base. So make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
Edited 11/10/2004 2:28 pm ET by rick3ddd
Rick or John W,
Not to hijack this thread, but let's say jointer 'A' costs X and has dovetailed ways, let's say jointer 'B' has parallelogram setup and costs an additional $1400 over the cost of jointer 'A'.
Is the parallelogram table adjustment worth that additional cost over the dovetailed way machine?
I think your number is too high as far cost difference but the parallelogram is more expensive to make and I pretty much already said why I think it's better.
Dovetail ways...if it goes off you can shim the tables but if the table twists you can sometimes split the difference by shimming. The proper fix is to have the tables reground and with the dovetail ways the entire machine with both tables must be mounted on the grinder.
Parallelogram...individual four corner adjustment is possible. In case of a warped table the one table can be removed, ground, remounted and readjusted.
All one has to do is look and compare how much more support the parallelogram gives to the tables. Look at the dovetailed base units. The base is relatively small compared to how much unsupported table there is.
Plus all you have to do is compare other makers and the jointer they offer. The parallelogram is always the higher end model over the dovetailed ways. A good example is the Grizzly line not to mention the two 8" jointers Delta offers and now PM is offering a parallelogram base and I bet they will be touting it as the top of the line. Plus, Martin, which is considered to be some of the finest equipment in the world, uses the paralellogram, as does, Paolini, Sicar, SCMI and many others.
From a purely theoretical, engineer's point of view, supporting the tables of a jointer with a parallelogram linkage is a very nice way to design the tool, but the advantages over a dovetailed machine aren't huge and both styles of jointers can give perfectly good service.
On the down side, there are a lot more precision parts involved on the p'gram jointers and the base castings are larger and more difficult to cast or fabricate and machine properly. This is why they cost more than the equivalent sized dovetail jointer.
In the real world, the theoretical advantages of the p'gram jointers can easily be wiped out by poor machining and or badly done castings and if they have problems they can be harder and more difficult to fix.
If I had the money, I would buy a p'gram jointer from one of the "old world" makers on the presumption that they would have the skills and mindset to get the fussier details right and you would be getting a beautiful machine that would be a pleasure to work with.
If I had less money to spend, I would be more inclined toward a dovetailed Asian import figuring that the simpler design would be easier to build properly even with lower manufacturing standards.
Hope this helps, John W.
What do you consider old world makers? Oliver, Crescent and a few others had to small incline table adjustment system. A small incline at each corner of the table which allowed complete adjustment of the tables and would be the equivalent of the modern parallelogram. Moak and a few others used a longer dovetail ways but had individual four corner table adjustments. I'm not going to dwell on this system because it isn't available on any smaller machines.
I think modern companies like Martin are just as competent on the fussy details and a lot of the old world companies are gone. The new Oliver has nothing to do with the old Oliver. The parallelogram was designed to be cheaper to produce than the old way of big heavy castings. If you compare old heavy cast iron American machine to the newer European machines the first thing noticed is the bases are fabricated from sheet metal rather than cast iron. The Detla DJ series is an exception to this. Anyway by fabbing out of sheet metal and having the parts that need to be precise adjustable within less precise sheet metal bases,the cost and weight are less than the traditional cast iron of old.
I find the parallelogram sytem is more forgiving and flexible to make because of the adjustment system. The dovetail system requires it to be made right the first time because you can't adjust the quirks out later.
Any machine, dovetail or paralellogram is capable of good performance but as I said before the extra money for the parallelogram will pay off in the long run if there are problems from a table warping or sagging.
you guys are killing me. As a novice woodworker my head is swimming with indecision. Tomorrow (Sat) I plan to pick out a new (my first) jointer. Should I go with the DJ20 and it's paralellagram design for a few extra hundred bucks or should I get the PM60A dovetailed way but american made etc. Let's not forget the General, oh but wait they have international which is all foreign products or do I spend the extra grand and get the Canadian version which supposedly has better steel and a beldar motor but is dovetail way'd. And now I'm hearing about all these european jointers that I know nothing about - please tell me they are extremely costly so I can just forget about them. Remind me again why I enjoy woodworking so much!
Personally, I'd go for the DJ20 because of it's proven track record and the adjustability of the parallelogram tables which I find to be clearly worth the extra money. The contender to the DJ20 would be the PM PJ882 which is also a parallelogram design. The PM is a little higher rpm which means a little nicer cut but to get the equivalent cut on the DJ20 you just feed a little slower. The PM was just recently introduced and designed to compete with the DJ20 so it doesn't have a track record to make a real comparison with service issues but over time it will be interesting to see how it fares. I'd be willing to bet the PM is made abroad as the DJ20 is by now as well I believe. I don't see it as a big deal as long as you have adequate technical support if and when you need it.
As far as dovetailed way machines go the comparison would be between the PM 60B 8" and the Delta 37-380 8" jointer. This Detla 37-380 is just one of the jointers in our shop and it is made overseas. It's ok but nothing special.
The other thing I think is important for most people who are just beginning to deal with major machines is dealer support if you have a problem. Are they going to talk to you over the phone or come out to your shop? That's an issue you don't see covered in the machine reviews and could be a deciding factor for you. Most folks just want to do woodworking and not spend time working on machines. My second jointer was a brand new PM 6" with warped tables and was the beginning of a new career in machine repair partly because of this. I learned how to fix machines because I wanted to be self sufficient and not have to rely on waiting for a service person to come and fix things. Now people call on me to fix their machines.
You are getting too hung up on the European thing. The paralleogram is based on the better European design which is all you need to know. It's a better, simpler set up and allows long term adjustability which the dovetailed ways do not.
All jointers do the same thing so just buy what is best for your budget. You can always sell it and get something else as you get more discerning over time. I've owned over 7 jointers over the years based on different shop spaces I've had to deal with. My first was a toolkraft 4" and my favorite was a 16" Oliver I rebuilt from the ground up. Presently I have 6" Walker Turner in my small basement shop but have access to a DJ30 with 24 hour access 2 blocks from me or a 20" RGA jointer at work.
So stop agonizing over it and go with your gut feeling. There's no one right choice for all folks. Some folks have to go for the budget issue and some can just buy the more expensive model. As a novice you will probably see things in a different light in a few years and decide on a different model, so you upgrade. A good tool doesn't lose value. In fact if you take care of it you will most likely get a good portion if not all of your money back in ten years if you upgrade, as the same machine will cost more by then. With the price of steel it will cost more to buy in a few months anyway. So good luck in whatever you choose so you can get back to woodworking.
Rick, thanks for the well thought/written response - it's greatly appreciated. I got the DJ20 X5 today. I looked at General, Powermatic and Delta. Of the three the Delta seemed the smoothest and best built of the three (although the differences were subtle). The dovetail way design just seemed akward and difficult to use, more so than I had anticipated. The Delta seemed to be very smooth when adjusting the table. Also I liked the added support under the beds, just seemed to give the machine and beds a more stable platform. I don't know, I might get it set up and hate it, or have difficulty adjusting it, but it's done. The price was right, the machine seems like it will do what I need it to do, I'll let you know in a couple of months.
You should be happy with the one you bought. It's a good machine.
Whatever extra time you take setting it up getting it right will be well worth it. This goes for ANY machinery. The main questions to ask before buying something like a jointer are:
How much will it be used?
What level of presicion is needed?
How easy is it to adjust?
Can I get parts/service easily?
Is it in my price range?
Considering the fact that most of the major consumer/small shop power tools are made in Taiwan, in the same factory, the main thing higher price gets is higher degree of finish details. Powermatic, Jet, Delta, Grizzly, General and whatever others I didn't mention look alike, operate alike and are alike, but as I said, more finish details like better paint, higher polish/flatness on the table top and higher tolerances all cost more. You could buy the most expensive, but if it's not set up properly, it won't matter. I have a 6" x 47" Grizzly and it works well. I took the time to set it to the level of accuracy I wanted (and I'm a picky SOB) so the fence is at 90 when I check it with a square that has never been dropped and I verify a few times each year. If I need to joint the edge on any stock that is wider than 6', I use someone else's.
(Or I drag it behind my truck on a new concrete road till it's flat on one surface. LOL)
thanks for the reply, I hope I have many years of jointing happiness.
PS your posting gave my wife a chuckle - helps when she sees the bill!!!
Mike -
I'm certainly not the experienced woodworker or crafstman to be giving out advice here and there but - I find with a jointer there's really aren't that many occasions where I have to adjust the tables that often. In fact, once the knives are set I never move the outfeed table. And for putting one square edge on a piece or material and/or taking out bow, cup, warp and twist from a board, I usually leave the infeed table to where it just takes off a shaving anyway.
I say all this in response to your comment " ...., I might get it set up and hate it, or have difficulty adjusting it, but ....". I think if you try to make hair's breadth adjustments to the infeed table you may well get frustrated. But from what I've read and the way I utilize the jointer in my shop, this is rarely necessary. One thing I have found, though and this may be true of all jointers .... I have to check and most of the time adjust the fence for square with the outfeed table any time it's moved.
Replacing the knives is a sorta zen thing. Set aside a few hours for the first experience. Unplug the machine, put on something soothing on the stereo and brew yourself a good cup of coffee then go for it! (grin)
Congratulations on the purchase. You've got a fine machine there. One that will give you years of service............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Thanks Dennis, I appreciate the response. You're right, I said the same thing to the rep today. I'll probably spend a day setting up everything, (hopefully flat/square/parallel) and pretty much just leave it. Everyone kept trying to sell me on helical and features etc - but my response is this, "I've got time on my side, I do this for fun not production. When I use the machine it will be for consistent small/shallow cuts, if it takes a few extra passes so be it, I'm not in any rush."
My only question right now is, can I wait for the mobile base and construct from there up? Seems like it would be a lot easier than putting this monster together and then lifting it into the base. Any thoughts?
Mike -
If yours comes shipped as mine did, with the jointer proper in one carton (basically) and the stand in another, you're still faced with a two person task of lifting the jointer onto the stand. That's the heavy part. So in answer to your question, I don't think the stand weighs enough more than the assembled jointer that it would make *that* much difference. I and my neighbor lifted my machine off the stand to turn the stand around as I had the lift pedal mechanism in front of the chip discharge chute .... a word to the wise perhaps? (grin).
Also, if you build an extension outfeed table for the long stuff (mine is just a solid core door slab on legs level with the outfeed table on the machine), be aware that the jointer tables do not sit parallel with the shop floor with the mobile base in place. One end of the base is slightly higher than the other to allow the lift mechanism to work.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis,
Remember, No matter which jointer you decided on, The tool its self isn't worth the powder to blow it up if the opperator does't have the ability and knowledge to opperate it safely.
I have an older Grizzly jointer ( yea thats right I said Grizzly ) I can hear all the boose and hisses now but quite personally I enjoy the machine it does everything I've ever wanted it to do and then some but better yet I like all the $$$$$$ I saved by purchasing it instead of one of the so called U.S.A. manufactured models.
Quite personally It's my own personal oppinion that if your not opperating a furniture or some other kind of woodworking buisness and your doing woodworking just for the love of it for you and freinds and family then a cheaper model will give you a lifetime of excellant use.
Good Luck
James
Boo.... Hiss..... Boo..... Hiss
BossCrunk notwithstanding, you won't hear all that many boos and hisses about a Grizzly jointer, especially the new 8" machine. I don't know where Frenchy is these days, but he's run many thousands of board feet through his and happy as a clam. Glad the older one you have works well too -- nice to have some $$$ to spend on sump'in else, isn't it!?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
It is amazing the variety of opinions. My neighbor had nothing but problems with Grizzly corp (ordered cabinet saw, first one smashed in shipping, second one bent arbor got the royal run around finally sent it back and gave up). Another friend, former pro cabinet maker states "I'd never buy a grizzly product". Yet, I come here and many of you praise the almighty grizzly corp, largely due to the amount of cash saved. But.... the consensus statement (about tools in general) is usually you get what you pay for, so does this not contradict the affirmation you all have for Grizzly?? The bottem line is one is only going to be happy with a product they have no preconcieved expectations. Yes, you can get a great tool from Joe Blow corp for pennies on the dollar, you can also get a bad one. Our hope is by buying from a notable company, with a reasonable track history and spending a fair amount of money that ultimately we will get what we want.
Quality customer service is one of the main criteria I use when selecting or recommending a company of any kind. I think your neighbor's experience is out of the norm for Grizzly, and if it had happened to me, I'd complain all the way to the top (Mr. Grizzly, can't remember his name). I'd venture to guess he'd deal with the problem firmly.
Some of the bad experiences with Grizzly are from several years back before their quality control had improved to the level it's at now. That being said, any company can have bad stuff happen (Delta most notably), and transportation problems (truckers can be brutes) are in another category also. Doesn't let Grizzly off the hook for solving the problem, though.
I don't recommend certain Grizzly machines just because they're money-savers. I recommend them because they are a quality tool at the price they're sold at, and can really help out the person whose funds are spread kinda thin. Speaking specifically of the better 8" jointer, the 1023S table saw, and the G0555 bandsaw. Some of their other stuff I wouldn't risk my $$$. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Even louder Boo, Hiss, Boo, Hiss....
James -I for one will never "boo-hiss" Grizzley equipment. I think anyone doing the kind of tool research we see going on around this forum will make the kind of informed buying decision comensurate with their tool needs. That is to say, I know professional cabinet makers who use Grizzley machines along with woodworker wannabe's like myself. I bought a second drill press to have one dedicated to woodworking (metal working makes a mess out of a drill press!) and decided on the Grizzley. I have a few issues with this drill press but they are essentially non-issues with respect to the requirements of woodworking drill presses vs metal working machines. Having it to do all over again if I had known more about the Grizzley line of tools I probably would have outfitted more of my shop with their equipment.By the way, I don't quite understand why you addressed your comments to me in particular. I don't recall having bad-mouthed Grizz stuff in the past............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Congratulations on your choice. I wasn't sure you were getting the part about the longer base and support on the tables. It uses the same basic parllelogram the expensive European machines like Martin uses.
http://www.martin-usa.com/products_details.asp?Productid=28&categoryid=21
The American basic pork chop guard isn't the best in my opinion but it's the standard here for keeping prices down. I didn't even bother to get into cutter head styles as it seemed as if you were struggling enough and the price jumps up from there. As a novice it will be interesting to for you to learn to change the knives the first time. Some folks rave about how four knives is better but I think having a head with 2 knives is easier for a novice. Even the best of machines will have to check the fence for squareness every time you move the fence in and out so don't think you got a lemon when you have to tweak the fence each time you move it. Ideally you should put the mobile base under it before you assmeble it but it doesn't sound like you bought that yet. I find the HTC bases are the best and the one who set the standard for them. Delta used to sell the HTC as an accessory but got ticked off because HTC would leave their own literature in the packages so they started making their own inadequate version of mobile bases. That foot pedal lift is really lame.
I'll have to look at HTC's online, originally I was going to get the free one offered with the jointer, but the coupon lists the wrong base for the DJ20, so I may go with router instead. I've already got a PC fixed/plunge router but it would be nice to have a second.
Mike -
If you don't think you'll have to be moving the jointer around all that much, if ever, I'd save the money on the mobile base. I only have one 'coz it came 'free' with the machine. As I mentioned, now in my bigger shop the jointer stays put 99.9% of the time. The other 0.1% I could easily find a workaround rather than moving the machine.
Oh-yesssssss! Get the routher. Like clamps, you can never have too many routers in the shop!
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
HTC doesn't have a site online. You will have to call for a catalog. Amazon carries some of the bases but HTC offer the most extensive set of bases as they started it all. The HTC Universal base, 4 wheels, rated for 700 lbs looks good and is suppoed to be available in Nov 2004. Should be available at amazon for under the $99 list with free freight. You should be able to put this base under the machine later on with no problem.
Edited 11/14/2004 10:32 am ET by rick3ddd
Edited 11/14/2004 5:29 pm ET by rick3ddd
I knew, after I posted my message, that I should have defined "old world" as including the classic American and Canadian makers, not just the European machines, sorry for the misunderstanding.
John W.
If you can't find HTC's site, look at Grizzly's. They sell Shop Fox, made by Woodstock Int'l. My shop is in my garage and the base I got works great for my jointer. rectangular steel that fit into the corners, bolted in and adjustable I had the jointer before I got the base, so I had to lift it. Wasn't too bad, but I'm a horse, anyway. If you can't get help for this, you can tilt it and rest it on a couple of 2x4's so it's about the same height as the base. Then you can lift the other end, roll the base under and slide the jointer to the proper position and get the wood out of the way. Carefully. If you have a chain hoist or motor lift, you could use these as well.
http://www.sawdustsales.com/mall/jointbase.asp
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G7315&gid=2DCF4D6B-CFD1-4AAF-887F-105BED976EB9&site=grizzly
As I said before HTC does not have a website or plan to have one but they do use others tp show their stuff. Toolcrib can get any product HTC offers but amazon lists only a few things. http://www.sawdustsales.com carries the full line though.
The Shop Fox bases look pretty good and are $10 cheaper but there are complicationsI still think the HTC is better. The problem with the SF is it's too short for the 36.5" of the DJ20 base so getting the extensions adds another $30 to the cost. The other thing and you can't see it from looking at the website of folks who carry HTC stuff is they improved the locking mechanism by making it foot activated. That was my only gripe about HTC bases and this makes them pretty much perfect. The downside of the Shop Fox base is you need to bend over to crank the locking knob so HTC still is the clear winner price wise and all around function. The HTC Jointer base is $99 but the HTC 3000 Universal base is the same price and can be mounted under the tool later with minor difficulty.
I've done the homework and checked the numbers carefully. I work as a purchasing agent and technician so I get paid to read the catalogs.
I forgot about the base being so much longer on that one.
For anyone besides me who has a cabinet saw with 7' rails and parks it along a wall where it needs to go straight in because of limited space, the Shop Fox is more manueverable since you can install the turning wheels wherever you want. The HTC is a good, strong base, but I couldn't use is since the wheels are at the front and back of the base and the extension mounts to the right. If I could parallel park it, I would probably have bought the HTC since I know one of the reps. I did get a smokin' deal on mine, though. Bought it at a Woorworking Show on the last day and the dealer was tired of moving it around from show to show.
The HTC 3000 Universal base can have the wheels mounted either way as well. It does need an extension kit to do the 36.5" of the DJ20 base. The foot levers are still a nicer feature in my opinion. So it's still cheaper than the Shop Fox but the HTC 3000 isn't out yet. Six of one half a dozen of the other. I think it's a pain to bend over that's why I like the foot levers. I'd put longer threaded knobs on the Shop Fox to make it easier.
"I think it's a pain to bend over that's why I like the foot levers." Amen to that. I bought a Shop Fox base for my band saw a few years ago, what a pain. Took it back. It was a mess to put together (a zillion parts), 2 or 3 of the holes were drilled in the wrong place, and then there's the bending over thing. It doesn't make sense to me that they haven't come out with a better, more competitive design.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Ah, but all that bending over is what keeps us thin and trim -- probably the only reason I can still see my shoes when standing up straight.
Delta, for parts availability if nothing else.
Mike, I'll share with you my thoughts from a recent discussion about this very subject. I got the the DJ20 X5 about 6 months ago.
1) The parallel-o-gram tables are ultra smooth and very easy to adjust quickly and accurately. The "lever vs. wheel" adjustment argument doesn't apply to the parallel-o-gram adjustable tables.
2) The preset depth stop is nice also. I have it set at about 1/128th and use it as my final smoothing pass. You can hog off some wood and then quickly move the in-feed table to a preset for your final pass.
3) Dust collection is pretty good. Some chips do come out from behind the fence where the motor belt attaches to the knife pulley.
4) The extra length on the in-feed table is also very nice.
5) The fence is quite heavy and a therefore bit awkward to adjust the lilt. The width adjustment works well.
6) The jointer capacity is actually 8" as advertised (amazing, I know) unlike some "8 inch" jointers that only have a 7 7/8" capacity.
The machine is an excellent machine overall. Fit/finish was also very good. It came very well packaged (wood crate and all). Toughest part was getting the thing in the basement and on the stand (eat your wheaties!).
I don't have any information on your other choices. Hopefully, someone else can provide you with their experiences with the other machines.
--Rob
I bought a Delta DJ-20 (I think is the correct model) about 2 yrs ago. It's been excellent, full 8" top, long bed with ease of adjustment.
Bob
I got a Powermatic 60B (8") about a year ago and have been very happy with it. I got it to replace a 6in. Taiwanese unit that I thought work well. After a minimal amount of tweaking the outfeed table, I am getting excellent results, much better that the 6". Not sure what the difference is. Maybe the larger tables.
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