Replies

1. 
   jazzdogg | May 25, 2005 12:46am | #1

   Bob,

   Examine the grain closely before you commence planing: if your were attentive when selecting stock and during glue-up, you shouldn't have too many troublseome changes in grain direction from board to board. However, if the grain changes direction from board-to-board, you're likely to finding yourself muttering under your breath as you start to experience tear-out.

   Since you only have to work a small area of the surface, you might be able to get away with using just a card scraper or a scraper plane, both of which are more tolerant to changing grain than bench planes.

   Because you don't need to remove a lot of material, a well-tuned #5 (or 5 1/2), or #4 (or 4 1/2) will do the job, although you may prefer to buy a low-angle smoother or finishing plane: they are less expensive than their more complex brethren, and, because they are used bevel-up and don't utilize a chip breaker, they are very easy to learn and tune-up (in essence, they are very long block planes).

   Both Lee Valley/Veritas and Lie-Nielsen offer excellent versions of all of the planes mentioned above. If you know what to look for, and are willing to spend a few hours fettling, you can obtain a used Stanley-style #4 or #5 for under $50.

   Good luck,

   -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

2. 
   BG | May 25, 2005 05:05pm | #2

   Bob,
   It sounds like you may have a bit of snipe in that dip section? Either way, personally, I would not worry about it too much, chances are you can avoid it affecting any outcomes in the future.
   However, now that you have a workbench this opens up new possibilities and you'll need some good planes to take advantage. I would add to Jazzdog's list a Jointer (#7) and a block plane....and a good book or two from the library before you buy anything.

    

3. 
   Ricks503 | May 25, 2005 05:54pm | #3

   Depends on how deep the dip is.  My first thought would be a jointer plane.  The long base will ride over small dips and produce a flatter surface.  smaller the plane the more likely it is to have end or rear dipping into low spots and messing you up.

    

   There have been some plans in some of the magazimes within the past year on making a slead and using a router to flatten wide panels and benchtops.

   1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
4. 
   Napie | May 25, 2005 09:04pm | #4

   I resurface my bench once a year, (maybe twice, depending on how wet the summer is or how dry the winter), with an old Record #7 that's been tuned up with a Hock blade.  Just use winding sticks to keep it from twisting and enjoy the shavings.

5. 
   Brett | May 26, 2005 03:34am | #5

   Why not just run it through your wide-belt sanding machine?

6. 
   CharlieD | May 26, 2005 05:48am | #6

   "Since you only have to work a small area of the surface, you might be able to get away with using just a card scraper or a scraper plane, both of which are more tolerant to changing grain than bench planes. "

   Since you have a dip, it sounds like you have to take down the whole surface, rather than a small area; if you want to use a handplane--which is a great idea, really--you'll have to learn to tune a plane, due to reversing grain issues, as someone pointed out. And if you don't already know, you'll have to learn to get your plane really sharp.

   A jointer plane will do the best job of getting the top flat, because it's the longest. But you might not get that much use out of it later unless you plan to get some more planes. A jack plane, along with a set of winding sticks and a straightedge (like you've already got) will allow you to do what you're trying to do and will have lots of uses down the line.

   Charlie

   I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
7. 
   Handrubbed | May 26, 2005 06:10am | #7

   I would recommend the Lie-Nielsen No. 4-1/2 bench plane since it is wider and heavier than either the 4 or 5.  Tearout could be a problem if you randomly laminated the boards with checking grain direction.  Ask the Lie-Nielsen people if their 50 degree frog would help with the tearout (I don't know).  That frog is for difficult grain, if that applies here.  Although the plane is $300., you will use it over and over in your woodworking.  I'm sure Clifton makes one also, but they are even more due to being imported.  Buy American.

8. 
   triplenet | May 26, 2005 06:47am | #8

   Thanks for the excellent advice so far. I didn't watch the grain direction when I did the glue up, just put the pretty side up, so may have a problem buried there.

   Is the consensus that I need a LN or LV plane and a Tormek to sharpen it? That's my way of thinking, but I probably should be a little more frugal.

   I've gotten away from the hand tools over the years, but am finding satisfaction in the silence and feel of a sharp blade working wood.

   Would an old Stanley work? I don't want junk, but a good old one. If so what #'s?

   This is a great group with excellent input. I appreciate your time to advise and look forward to more input.

   Thanks,

   Bob

1. 
   Telemike | May 26, 2005 07:16am | #9

   Bob, go to the best museum in your area and look at the fine furniture on display. When these pieces were made, there were no LN planes, tormek wasn't even a pipedream yet. For most of the pieces before the 1800s, planes weren't even metal other than the blade. Sharpening was the best stones that were locally available - no diamonds, no scary sharp, no waterstones in europe, no arkansas in Japan.People on this forum will often give a very elitist view that you can't woodwork without the best of every tool. Well, you can make masterpieces with pretty crude stuff if you have skill. Or you can make firewood with the high priced tools if you don't have skill.That said, I will admit that I'd have the best tools available if I could just win that darn lottery! But, I've invested time into improving my new cheap planes etc and they are still capable of much finer work than I am.You'll hear about how much better the old stuff is than the new stuff constantly. But, think about your car. Would you rather have a 1965 impala or a new Camry? Which one is safer, more economical to use, more reliable, more pleasant to drive, and will go further? A late 1800's plane may have more attention paid to detail, but I'll take a good modern iron and good ductile cast iron anyday.

1. 
   Peter36 | May 27, 2005 08:38pm | #16

   Telemiketoo. I have looked at quite a few old "high end" pieces. I found it quite surprising that a lot of the difficult grain has tearout. I doubt that the old planes could reach the level of sharpness that we can today, given there sharpening medium. I believe that these where top notch craftsmen, but there tools left something to be desired.          Peter

2. 
   CharlieD | May 26, 2005 07:34am | #10

   I agree with telemiketoo with one caveat: learning to tune a handplane takes time and practice, unless you already know; the LN and Veritas planes come tuned and flat. Older planes will work fine assuming that they're tuned and sharp. If you want to get it ready to go, buy new, and buy quality. Unless you get into more specialzed stuff, the #'s are basically the same. A LN #4 is based on a Stanley Bedrock #4.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

3. 
   Napie | May 26, 2005 03:09pm | #11

   A #4 1/2 smoother and #7 will cover 98% of everything you will do.  A cheap bench grinder and a set of good oil stones will take care of keeping them sharp.  L-N's are the best, but, I used tuned up Stanleys for years before the cash flow caught up to buy the top end stuff, (and they are THAT much better!).

4. 
   Miami | May 29, 2005 06:43pm | #20

   Bob,

   I won't get into the models - But, I wouldn't recommend a 'new' Stanley under any circumstance, unless you want to spend more time tuning it than you will flattening the bench with it.  A new LV or LN will work 'from the box,' with only honing of the blade.

   Next step down from LV price-wise might be to buy an older (WWII or earlier) Stanley from one of the folks who sell them already rehabbed and tuned.  Several folks sell these - here are just a couple -

   Walt Q -

   http://pages.cthome.net/bcrgraphics/tool%20works.html

   Johnny K (rarebear) -

   http://www.rexmill.com

   (I don't see any for-sale by John right this moment, but here's a sample of his work - http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1625939&page=7&view=collapsed&sb=5&o= )

   I believe both these guys will take 'orders' - tell 'em what you want, or want to use it for, and they'll recommend something, and get/tune one for you when it turns up in their hunting.  The Stanley 'Bedrock' series (any 60* number) are very well thought of, but more expensive, of course (these are what the LN bench plane designs are based on).  There are other rehabbers (Mike in Katy, Terry Hatfield?), some of whom you can send your ebay finds to directly for tuning.

   Next step down in price would be to find an older Stanley (ebay or yard sales), and learn to tune it yourself.  There are LOTS of articles on tuning older planes - rarebear's site alone probably has a dozen.

   But, if an LN-and-Tormek are even remotely in the budget, that bottom end might not be the way to begin.  I think there's value in having one plane that you can be sure is well-set-up before you get into rehabbing your own, just so you know how a good one works, know what you're shooting for.

   If LN-and-Tormek stretches the budget, I'd say you oughta spend on the plane, not the sharpening - get the LN and skip the Tormek.  Get the LN (I'd recommend the 62 - it's long enough to flatten.  And, you can swap in a high-angle iron and have an excellent smoother too, wonderful flexibility for comparatively little $), and try Scary Sharp to keep the iron honed.  Low investment to begin with - later, you may want to try waterstones, Tormek, etc.  One good way to get started with Scary Sharp is to make Brent Beach's simple jig and use his method - see http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/jig.html .  I've found that the best place for the 3M sandpaper is Joel's site - http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=toolshop&Category_Code=THS - no one else I've found even carries the .3 micron paper.

   Good luck, have fun, make purty shavings ...

   Clay

    

    

1. 
   troys | May 30, 2005 05:03am | #21

   I just finished a bench built much the same way as you did and I used an old millersfall equivalent to a Stanley #7. I added a laminated blade aftermarket chip breaker. Using this plane I planed the bench top on a diagonal and this seems to have worked pretty well. Good luck.
   Troy

5. 
   FNLoots | May 30, 2005 10:07am | #22

   Hi Bob, i have a Tormek and use it to greate effect on turning tools, specifically gouges. For sharpening blades for my hand planes, however, I have found a honing jig much more effective. I use it on sandpaper on plate glass and on a very fine grain diamond stone. If plane blades and bench chisels are your only sharpening requirement at the moment, I would rather spend the extra buck on good quality planes. Again, I can highly recommend the Tormek, but a bit of an overkill for sharpening only plane blades.

9. 
   pqken | May 26, 2005 03:46pm | #12

   Here's something that may or may not be of concern here...I learned this the hard way. Using a plane after sanding, the sand particles that are left behind is not very kind to a keen edge.

10. 
    Midnight | May 27, 2005 12:54am | #13

    Bob.. congrats on completing the workbench; commiserations on the dip...

    Reverse grain in the lamination too huh.?? I see you like to make things easy on yourself  ;) I won't say it'll be straight forward, but it's definitely fixable with a little care and patience... you need to focus on minimising the tear-out..

    I'd start working down the high spots with a jack plane; it's just about long enough to use as a jointer while being light enough to work with for long periods. Remove the bulk of the material by working across the grain, skewing the blade will lessen the chance of tear out. Check your progress frequently with the straight edge, checking along, across and on the diagonal.

    Once you're happy that the top's flat and free of twist you'll need to think about smoothing; this is where that reverse grain lamination will really make its presence felt. You'll need to tune the plane to take a very fine shaving, as thin as it will tune to without making dust. Adjusting the frog is a fundamental part in minimising tear-out. The throat needs to be just wide enough to allow that fine shaving to clear, and no wider; you need the tight throat to maximize the support for the wood fibres immediately ahead of the blade as you take a shaving.

    Once again, skewing the plane (heavily this time) will help minimize the tear-out; my gut instinct is to recommend a high angle frog too. Alternativly, if you've opted for a bevel up plane, sharpen the blade at around 40 deg or so to get the cutting angle up into York pitch range... Rule is the steeper the angle, the more effort required to push the plane through the cut, the benefit being a greater ability to cope with wild grain. I'd imagine that reverse grained laminations would definately qualify as wild..!!  ;)

    I won't begin to pretend that smoothing will be an effortless, fault free process; to be honest I've never had to contend with grain running in both directions at once so personally I'd be prepared to have some contingencies to fall back on.

    First thing I'd recommend when buying your plane(s) is that you get the thickest blades you can. Thicker blades won't chatter, and provided the cut isn't too heavy, they'll take a heavier shaving before causing tear out in a conventional grain situation.

    Buying a scraper plane (or at the very least some card scrapers) might be a wise move just in case the smoother can't cope. scrapers cut at extreme angles; tear-out simply isn't a factor. The trade off is that there's a whole new / different technique to learn to get the most out of them.

    One last necessity to mention is your need for a sharpening system of some sort. There's a wide range o choose from, from powered wet grinders, oil stones, water stones, wet-and-dry paper for scary-sharp... and a few others. Bottom line is whichever system you feel is best suited to you will be fine so long as you can figure how it works. Flattening and smoothing your top will push any blade to its limits; to get the best from them it's essential that you get them sharp and keep them sharp throughout the process... You only want to do this once... so do it properly, yea.?

    Last point... if you're stuck, just ask... don't be shy...

    Mike Wallace

    Stay safe....Have fun

1. 
   jazzdogg | May 27, 2005 01:43am | #14

   Mike,

   Very well said!-Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

2. 
   Peter36 | May 27, 2005 08:45pm | #17

   Good afternoon Mike. How's the other side of the pond? Not trying to hijack the thread here but.................I think that it is condradictory advice to skew a plane and recommend a high angle frog. Difficult grain is best dealt with by increasing the angle of attack. Scraping is the most extreme example of this. Skewing the blade lessens the angle of attack. I think that people generally think that skewing the blade helps because it is easier to push. Easier to push has very little to do with the quality of cut. When the going gets tough..........don't skew.             Peter

1. 
   Midnight | May 27, 2005 09:02pm | #18

   Peter.. right now it's cool and damp, but given that I've 9 uninterrupted shop days ahead of me, its far from miserable  ;)

   What you're saying makes a lot of sense... however, I'm simply stating what I've tried myself when faced with difficult grain; wouldn't recommend skewing if I didn't know it worked.. go figure..

   I'm still at the stage where I treat scrapers as a "when all else fails" option.. someone keeps greasing the learning curve.. sheesh....Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

11. 
    WillGeorge | May 27, 2005 08:17pm | #15

    Since I am this close, I would like to finish flattening it with a hand plane...

    Go get a good plane.. BUT if for this project off just a bit.. Finish with the belt sander...

    When the bench is finished you can learn to yse your NEW PLANE on it!

12. 
    philip | May 29, 2005 01:35pm | #19

    Hello Bob,
    I am not trying to be offensive, but I can't understand how you don't have a Plane. Anyway now is a good time to get one, also to cure your top problem. Go for a new Stanley 41/2 or 51/2 if you are shy about the money-as long asit is not a "handyman" version. You need to be able to sharpen and set it properly.When in good order these planes will do you well and that red oak will not have a chance-especially if you skew or even plane across the grain in any parts "cutting up rough". You need to get the feel of it, so start by taking very fine cuts.The occasional wax rub on the (plane) bottom is a great help.Who knows-you may wander how you have lived this long without experiencing the pleasure of hand planing-but don't go overboard and tear the ring out of it, as despite what some recent posts may have you believe, there are a heap of other woodworking experiences out there to get into.
    P.S. I suggested the half sizes because they are wider and have a bit more heft, whilst I would think that the bigger numbers are longer and heavier, making it more difficult for an inexperiencd operator.

13. 
    sailalex | May 30, 2005 03:23pm | #23

    If you have a "slight" dip a #7 will never get it unless you use it to take down the high spots (everything but the dip). Unless the boards are aligned with the grain running the same direction, reverse grain will cause a lot of heartache (backache?). Oak is tough enough to plane but with a lot of reverse grain it will be a nightmare. After you finish, you will give up on hand planes and that will be unfortunate. Grab that belt sander and go; buy a #41/2 and a block plane and wait for a better project to use them. Good luck!

1. 
   Peter36 | May 30, 2005 03:28pm | #24

   Sailalex. I think that he is trying to take down the high spots to level the bench. Therefore the #7 or any other plane will do the job. The #7 will do it much faster than a belt sander. Why do you think he is trying to "get" the low spot with the #7?

14. 
    Fiddler | May 30, 2005 07:59pm | #25

    Congratulations on your completion of the workbench. If your dip is a minor problem try to work around it and forget about trying to correct it. You may open up a bigger dip/hole. Will Rogers once said "if you find yourself in a hole the first thing to do is stop diggin."

    I have about 30 old hand planes, mostly Stanley(27 or so are complete and work well and 2 or 3 are incomplete) . I also have he Handplane Book by Garret Hack. You can get it from a liabrary. It's an excellant reference. Stanley set the standard in terms of numbering that was generally adopted years ago.#s 1, 2, 3, 4 & 4 1/2 are smootong planes generally used for finishing and taking off fine onion skin thin shavings, #s 5, 5 1/4 & 5 1/2 are jack planes which typically take off paper thin shavings, # 6 is a fore plane (I use it to start with) and #s 7 & 8 are jointer planes used to flatten a surface or joint the edges of long boards to ensure they mate well prior to gluing up a panel. I finished my maple bench with a Stanly #7. Pretty well any of these planes can be tuned to take off an onion skin type shaving. It sounds like that is what you want to do and in combination end up with a flat bench surface. So, if I couldn't live with the slight dip you refer to I would consider using a very finely tuned #7 or #8. It would have to be set to take very thin shavings off. If you get to a section where the grain is reversed you can sometimes solve the tear out problem by reversing the direction of the plane for that section only. If you use a small block plane or a sraper you may only end up with a smoother slightly deeper dip.

15. 
    triplenet | Jun 01, 2005 08:31pm | #26

    Thanks to all for the in depth info on planes. It has been very helpful to me and I expect others that read this fine board.

    As I have a 8" long bed Delta jointer, I hesitate to buy a new jointer hand plane for what may be one job. My plan is to find a good #7, per suggestions, and buy a new LV or LN which would have a broader every day use. Our son lives in Ottawa, so LV is always a must stop (or 2). It's quite a drive from NW Arkansas, but worth it.

    I hesitate to start trying to flatten the top at the risk of making it worse. It looks good, but I can feel the slight dip. I put a straight edge on it and it's a .060 dip over about 8" wide. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it. When I use it, I don't notice it.

    Thanks again to this great group!

    Bob