Replies

1. 
   JimGrif | May 04, 2003 01:55am | #1

   If she signed the shop dwgs, she approved the design, including use of MDF.

2. 
   RW | May 04, 2003 02:18am | #2

   She's wrong but doesn't have the education to realise it. (And I don't mean to imply that she's dumb - she just doesn't have the background to understand the implications of what she requested, or thought she requested.) I completely understand the idea of thinking you're paying for solid wood (high quality) and getting man made materials (Shopko) - but your cabinetmaker isn't far off the mark. Is it possible, sure, anything's possible. People build solid stock cabinetry all the time, but I would argue, being a guy who's done that, that I wouldn't do it in a kitchen. Too many opportunities for things to go wrong when the wood moves. I agree with her sentiment of not liking the MDF. I think the stuff is garbage, but you presented her with drawings and she put a John Hancock on it, I think from the legal perspective you're in the right. Nobody here knows who said what or when, but if she asked 95% of the cabinet shops in the country for rift sawn white oak without specifying all solid stock, they'd have sold her veneer over something stable. The other 5% wouldn't have gotten the job unless she had deep pockets. Best of luck to you.

   "The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

1. 
   stjohns | May 04, 2003 03:59am | #3

   Not only that RW imagine the color and grain difference's flashing at her with flecks everywhere. Without careful and costly matching it wouldn't look good anyway. Good luck from here also but your in the right here. Just offer to upgrade them for a fair market price. That's easy enough. 

2. 
   daddyo | May 04, 2003 10:14pm | #5

   Thanks for your thoughtful replies. Unfortunately, private counsel has been retained on both sides as an unpaid balance of $20,000 is in jeopardy (which is a percentage of the entire larger project) until one of us caves-in. I would like to find a woodworking council or some organization that might give the veneer over MDF angle some sort of industry legitimacy, otherwise I fear that the higher paid attorney will win.

1. 
   RW | May 05, 2003 12:57am | #9

   I like FG. She's not bad on the advice, eh? The legal stuff - and this is a looooooooong shot - theres a book out there published by the NAHB called Residential Construction Performance Guidelines, or the RCPG. Depending on what circle you're conversing, it's either a joke, the bible, or somewhere in between. The intent is good, but the guidelines are, well, pretty lax, if you ask most anyone. But regarding cabinets, it specifically doesn't allow cabinet faces to warp more than 1/8" out of line, warped cabinet carcasses (they call them bodies) more than 1/4", and they say to the point of most warpage, which to me means on the diagonal, and they don't allow for any door or drawer to bind. Also, cabinet doors must stay closed. (And if your door or carcass warps, then the latches dont line up and that won't happen either). All of these things could be impacted by your choice of materials. With solid stock, they all become a very realistic possibility. Bear in mind the guidelines are viewed by most trades as ridiculously lax. You could make the argument that solid wood cabinetry would, by the laws of nature, move more than that 1/4" across a 2' depth, and not a thing man or beast could do about it. To me, that's a pretty good argument for not using it in a kitchen. Have your shark look into it, and get a copy of Bruce Hoadleys book Understanding Wood, to boot."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

2. 
   notDusty | May 05, 2003 05:32am | #10

         Daddyo , 

        Try the  N.K.B.A.    it is the national kitchen and bath association . They publish a trade magazine "Kitchen and Bath Design" With a little luck they may have a quality product guideline that sets some parameters or standards for materials .On my earlier post I asked if Solid lumber construction was listed on your contract ?      good luck , I hope this will help you .   

   Edited 5/5/2003 12:05:01 AM ET by dusty

1. 
   GACCDallas | May 05, 2003 07:28am | #11

   We build solid stock stile and rail cabinets with solid wood doors all the time with no problems.  I wouldn't use MDF for the boxes in a wet area such as a bath or kitchen.  We only use veneer core plywood for the casework.  Actually, I hope I never shove another sheet of MDF through the table saw ever again.

   I'm not having the warpage problem that some people seem to worry about.  But having said that, I won't guarantee any stile and rail door over 36" tall from warping.  Although I've only had one or two move on me in the last 15 years.

   Most of the cabinet work we've been doing lately has been rift sawn white oak.  A few quartered white oak ones, but no too many.  Most clients don't like to see that much flake in one place.

   I think she thought she was getting an oak kitchen, and you should have told her it would be an MDF kitchen covered with oak veneer.  If she had balked at the idea, that was the time to show her the price difference.   I can see her side.  I see your side too, but she will not be happy and thinks you sold her a bill of goods, and kind of, you did.

   Now I'm not saying lay up all your cabinet sides out of solid wood panels - lots of time we just use birch ply for the interiors with oak stile and rails and wood paneled doors.  But we tell them up front so they can decide if that's what they want.

   Lawyers.  Good grief you're in trouble.

   Good luck,

   Ed. Williams - Dallas, Texas

3. 
   mrles | May 05, 2003 08:18am | #12

   One thing to keep in mind since you both have retained attorneys. The longer it takes to resolve the problem the less money you are going to get. It could end up costing more than the $20,000. If you end up in court you are the knowledgeable business man and she is the poor consumer that you are taking advantage of. 

   Been there

   Gods Peace

   les

3. 
   notDusty | May 04, 2003 07:40am | #4

         Daddyo ,

      You say the materials that were used were listed on the original drawings or contract . If solid lumber construction was not listed and never really discussed as I believe is the case, then legally there is no wrong doing . Industry standards do not include 100% solid lumber construction . Can it be done ? of course , is it commonly used in kitchen cabinetry ? NO , is it a stable way of building boxes ? NO . Your customer may be unhappy but I feel your customers expectations got higher after the fact . Its never good to have un happy clients but at this point the alternatives are few , and you have done no wrong .

                           good luck

4. 
   forestgirl | May 04, 2003 10:15pm | #6

   Bummer, bummer, bummer.  Not that I can help you with the legal part of this, but I can share an approach I used to take with furniture customers back in the days when I sold vintage and antique furniture.  When a potential buyer would ask me "Is this table [dresser, nightstand, bookcase, bed] solid wood?" and it was, in fact, a veneered piece, I would explain about the advantages of using veneer and the fact that veneering is a centuries old furniture-making technique, and used by long-valued masters such as Beidermeyer (sp?).  Pointed out such things as being able to produce bookmatched crotch-mahogany doors and such.

   Dealing with the MDF substrate thing is much harder, especially after the fact.  It may be best next time around to explain the mechanical properties of wood and reasons for using a man-made substrate ahead of time.  The potential customer can then ask around, get the same answers from the other cabinet makers if they so wish, and come back to you feeling confidence in your approach.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   daddyo | May 04, 2003 10:28pm | #7

   Thanks forestgirl. Each project that I do has a new lesson, and your suggestion will be imcorporated into the next client's FYI. My "radar" is now recalibrated to detect yet another level of misunderstanding that prospective clients have about the woodworking industry.....I'm going to have to write a book.....!

1. 
   forestgirl | May 04, 2003 10:55pm | #8

   It's so darned hard to anticipate all the misconceptions a customer can have!  I know the frustration well.  The "common man" (and woman) has a thesaurus in which "veneer" = "cheap" because of all the truly cheap furniture out there will micro-thin veneers and shoddy construction.  They have no idea of the ways that veneers have been used to make very beautiful, quality furniture for a very long time now.

   Don't know if you have a "gallery" or presentation notebook of photos for your marketing purposes, or if you meet customers in an office, but it couldn't hurt to have some beautiful photos to prove your point in this issue, maybe from Architectural Digest or some such mag.

   Good luck!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   blutt | May 05, 2003 09:18pm | #14

   The specification information you are looking for is the Architectural Woodwork Institute (AWI), they can be fund on line at http://www.awinet.org.  This organization sets the standards for architectural woodwork.

   The three grades of cabinet construction outlined by AWI are Economy, Custom and Premium.  From a quick review all three are based on veneer construction for the body of the cabinet and flat doors and solid wood for face frames, edge banding and style and rail doors.

   If your specification does not reference it as a requirement it may not be of any help.

   Most residential construction specifications are not thorough enough to provide any protection when you get into this kind of disagreement, I hope this is helpful.

   Good luck

   Blutto

5. 
   BenM | May 05, 2003 08:17pm | #13

   How about suggesting to her that you will refund any money she paid for the cabinets and you will then remove the cabinets.  Then she can get new cabinets elsewhere and you can reuse (maybe?) some of the cabinets in another project.

   This will cost you money of course, but it's still cheaper than lawyers.  And until it's resolved you KNOW she will be telling everyone how she was "cheated" and who it was.

   
   

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   Edited 5/5/2003 1:20:01 PM ET by BenM

6. 
   Napie | May 06, 2003 12:00am | #15

   I've been a project manager in the commercial construction industry, where lawsuites are very common, for a long time and I can tell you that there is never enough detail in any spec. The default position is however, the "industry norm" and in this case, that means veneer over sheet goods.  If the spec was loose and she signed off on the submittal, (shop), drawings, and they detail the construction, you win, period.  But the legal fees and bad blood will still be costly.

   
   

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   Edited 5/5/2003 5:29:45 PM ET by napie

7. 
   jgaiennie | May 06, 2003 04:27am | #16

   Daddyo,

   A suggestion...

   Offer to replace the doors for her with solid material as per her request - but caution her that the doors will be more suceptable to warp and that the doors that you've provided are more stable and less prone to warping.  She'll think about it for about two seconds, and then she'll say, "ok, nevermind."  The risk of course is that she'll say, she wants the solid doors, in which case you'll have to perform to maintain integrity.  I have veneered cypress entrance doors on my house over a lumber core cypress center.  I ordered cypress doors and expected them to be solid lumber.  When I called my supplier about the discrepency, this is the argument that he provided, quite willing to produce solid doors for me.  I bowed.  And I remain happy with my unwarped veneered doors.  I'd be happy to vouch for veneered doors for you as a reference if you wish.

   jdg

   
   

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   Edited 5/5/2003 9:30:39 PM ET by jdg

8. 
   parrothead | May 06, 2003 11:03pm | #17

   I work in the a town that revolves around the furniture industry, office, home, etc.. There is one business in town, MasterBrand Cabinets, that is one of the larger kitchen and bath cabinet manufactures. And I can tell you that they do not make any of their cabinets out of entirely solid material. The sides, backs, drawer parts, are all made from laminated or veneered material. While on the higher end the face frames, doors and drawer fronts are generally solid material.

   In the company that I work for we manufacture home and office furniture and I know of no industry specification that mandate the type of material that has to be used. When we do build "contract" furniture the buyer signs off on the specifications of the cabinets including the material.