Hello I am having problems when I use My veritas honing guide. It seems no matter what I do and no matter how careful I am lining up my chisels (Set of Marples and Lie-Nielsen) that I always get a slightly crooked angle across the face of my chisel and Plane blades as well. Its always crooked the same way and even when I put a micro bevel on it too shows up slightly crooked(the same angle as the primary bevel).
Is there an adjustment that I dont know about that will fix this? So that you understand my sharpening method I use Norton water stones and I use a flattening stone to make sure that the stones are flat themselves before sharpening.
When I use a square to check if my edge is perpendicular to the chisel sides it shows that the newly sharpened chisel is now out of square. All chisels show up the exact same way and end up out of square on the same side.
I hoped I have explained this so that the problem is understood by all. I know that several people will suggest different sharpening jigs but I would really like to know how to fix this one as I proabably have to much money tied up in this system.
I wonder if there is a problem with my jig or if someone can tell what I am doing wrong thank you. Thank you.
Mike
Replies
Mike,
I have no idea why, but getting a slightly angled micro-bevel compared to the primary bevel isn't all that unusual. However, I have never been able to see any light between the edge and a square. Perhaps becasue my microbevels are tiny.
It sounds like you are keeping your stones flat, and if you are diligent enough to do that, chances are you know that applying more pressure to one side than the other can create a skew, even with the wide roller. If you apply a little more pressure to one side, you can usually get a straight micro-bevel. You can also check that the blade is clamped squarely in the jig. Perhaps there is somethink on the registration gauge that is setting your tools out of square? Also make sure that the blade isn't moving while honing. If it is, either the blade isn't clamped tightly or evenly enough or too much pressure is being applied. It is possible the clamping bar isn't flat and allowing the blade to twist in use.
Hope this helps some.
You were right
Chris I checked the squareness of the chisel to the sharpening jig and every time the chisel was not perfectly perpendicular to the honing guides body. For some reason when I register my chisels to the registration fence it aligns it up out of square.
Thanks a bunch I like things to be perfect and although I have been using very sharp chisels I couldn't stand looking at the slightly skewed angles. Now with one extra step things are looking better.
Mike
Mike,
If you're getting the same problem with each of the tools you're sharpening, I would think the problem is with the honing guide. Lee Valley is one of the best companies to work with. Call them and explain the problem and I'm pretty sure they will send you a new one for free, or at least let you know if other people have had the same problem and tell you how they solved it.
Jim
Thanks Jim
There is a problem with the honing guide or at least their fence that aligns the chisel straight. I checked with a square and every time the jig aligns the chisel or iron out of square. I will call them and see what they say. Its not hard to check it with a square but I would think the jig should take care of that. I hate to complain though on something that I can adjust to.
Thank you, Mike
Brass wears away from the roller on these kinds of jigs on a continuous basis. You can see it in the oil on an oilstone and on sandpaper if you use that method. If you have any lateral slide on the jig during use, like trying to use the entire face of the stone by working continually across the face of the stone, you can wear the roller down unevenly and throw the jig off. In fact, all of these jigs are destined to arrive at that state - with the brass roller unevenly worn through use thus throwing the registration of the chisel out of square or changing the honing angle, or both. This happens much faster if you use sandpaper and if you do rough grinds on low grit sandpaper with this jig you will wear the roller to the point of inaccuracy very quickly.
Brass wears away from the roller on these kinds of jigs on a continuous basis. You can see it in the oil on an oilstone and on sandpaper if you use that method. If you have any lateral slide on the jig during use, like trying to use the entire face of the stone by working continually across the face of the stone, you can wear the roller down unevenly and throw the jig off. In fact, all of these jigs are destined to arrive at that state - with the brass roller unevenly worn through use thus throwing the registration of the chisel out of square or changing the honing angle, or both. This happens much faster if you use sandpaper and if you do rough grinds on low grit sandpaper with this jig you will wear the roller to the point of inaccuracy very quickly.
Charlie .... and you know this how? I did not know you used honing guides? You must be an old campaigner <grin> :)
It would takes years and years and years to achieve what you describe, and even then I am not sure if I could say that I have seen it occur. I think you are making this up ... heh. (I have used honing guides on top of belt sanders without any negative effects).
Hello I am having problems when I use My veritas honing guide. It seems no matter what I do and no matter how careful I am lining up my chisels (Set of Marples and Lie-Nielsen) that I always get a slightly crooked angle across the face of my chisel and Plane blades as well. Its always crooked the same way and even when I put a micro bevel on it too shows up slightly crooked(the same angle as the primary bevel).
Mike, I am going to repeat what has already been said. The side clamps screws on the LV determine how square the blade grinds.
I mostly freehand blades, and my experience in doing so enables me to use the LV as if I were freehanding. When freehanding a blade you can bear down on a corner to add camber or work one side more to alter the line of the bevel. Think of the side clamp screws on the LV as doing the same thing - simply add/subtract more/less downforce as needed. Start the honing, then check your progress after two or three strokes. Adjust the screws accordingly. You are driving the guide. It should not be thought of as doing the work for you.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Chisel forging not a precision ground part
Please consider . . . the sides of the chisel may not be parallel, the faces of the front and back probably are tilted in relation to each other besides the taper from one end to the other. Unless they are machined all to each other then there will be some woppy jaw in what you get when you are done.
More gadgets
"Life is just so complicated in woodworking. Maybe I will get into custom bicycle making, where things are simple, and everyone agrees on the parameters and on selecting the appropriate readings for each parameter" 9619
And then I look at that video of the guy in the marketplace turning a nice chess piece, a king with a captured ring, sitting on the ground with one hand and one bare foot on one tool and the other hand using a bow to turn the lathe, two boards with nails, and I wonder at the mass of tools I have bought in the last 30 years.
"Can you imagine NASA putting up a satellite that does not have sensors to detect out of tolerance conditions and mechanisms which automatically bring the system back to nominal? NEVER" 9619
Remember the first year of Hubble ? SOMETIMES
The Eternal Struggle
Swenson,
Great post. Thanks for joining in on the fun and humor.
Do I remember the first years of Hubble? Yup. Also the first years of trying to design and build something that could take a human into space, and later designing a way of getting folks to the Moon ((((( AND BACK AGAIN ))))).
It is great to bring those things back to mind. I spent about 30 great years at NASA. Wouldn't trade that for anything. But one thing that goes on daily at NASA, that no-one ever years about is --- how simply can we design and make this device? The reason is that there is always the temptation to make things bigger and better, which makes them too expensive to afford. There is a constant struggle towards simplicity and costs that can be met. Actually that struggle is one which exists here in the Hand Tools forum. Are the old woodies good enough, or do I need to refurbish some old Stanleys, or should I get a Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley, or do I need $3000 infill, or should I just go with the Holtey that I wanted all along?) This seems to be an eternal struggle, and it does make life interesting. The only problem is letting the problem take over your life, rather than just doing woodworking while enjoying it.
I WISH YOU A HAPPY WOODWORKING LIFE.
Mel
I say don't sell your cool tools; might change your mind someday
>mass of tools I have bought in the last 30 years<
Sitting on the dirt with my foot on a board, nail and bow driven lathe OR work in your shop (or my humble shop for that matter)? Welllll , hmmmmmm . . . that didn't take me long. I can tell you for certain where I would want to hang out. I'm a candyhas; I admit it. But I hear what you are saying.
People, people,
When you hear hoofs think horses not zebras.......
Mike, your most likely problem is that you are not placing the iron in the center or that you are not tightening the screws evenly AND enough and the blade is moving while you sharpen. Same thing happened to me when I first started to use the MK II. I now tighten the screws with small pliers and make sure the blade is as well centered as possible.
Them silly brass screws LV put on the MK are silly, it takes the Hulk to tighten them enough to keep the blade from moving. You are probably favoring your strongest hand and thus moving the blade and getting the skew.
Jorge.
PS. Wouldn't it be great if people who accuse others of whining would at least offer some solution and had experience with the tool in question? Instead we get a page long worht of gibberish and in the end, no answer and no help.... go figure.
When you hear hoofs think horses not zebras.......
And then again the only true wild hose is here..
http://simplymarvelous.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/last-of-the-true-wild-horses/
I hear you
The small pliers might be a good idea. It does take a lot of hulk like strength(I am also green) to tighten the screws enough to keep a chisel from moving. Ok maybe a better question would be is there a better honing jig out there. I seem to recall that a few years ago this won best overall in an article or something.
I would love to do it by hand but I just haven't gotten the hang of it. I dont dare try my Lie-Nielsens freehand. I know that I cant afford some of the fancy Honing jigs these guys are designing but I would like to see it. Maybe the answer lies in a jig that doesnt rely on two screws.
I do align the registration fence in accordance with the size of chisel or plane iron that is stamped on the body of the jig itself but I have not measured the distance to each side of the jig nor have I measured the brass roller to see how consistent the measurements are
MP don`t over think the problem
You do not have to measure side to side, as long as the chisel or iron look centered it is good enough. The secret is to tighten EVENLY with both screws to get the jig to hold the chisel even.
Now, sometimes you do have to apply a little pressure on one side or the other to get the bevel on the sharpening look even across the edge. Having said that, from my experience I found out that even if the bevel does not look square, as long as the edge is square it works just fine. Took me a while to learn how to use the jig well and during that time most of my irons and chisels had a "crooked" bevel but they cut fine. So don't stress so much about it, you don't need a new or better jig, just hang on to this one and practice a little more and soon you will be getting the results you want.
The small pliers might be a good idea. It does take a lot of hulk like strength(I am also green) to tighten the screws enough to keep a chisel from moving.
Hi Mike
Two points ...
Firstly, the reason what a chisel may move position when used in a guide with down clamps, like the LV, is if the blade has a domed back. It will then pivot on this. The problem lies as much with the chisel as with the choice of honing guide. It may better better to choose a side clamping type - as long as the chisel has parallel sides. Some days it is just easier to hollow grind the bevel face and freehand! :)
The second issue is that you never use force on the LV knobs. It is not necessary to clamp down hard. In fact you are better off with moderate finger tightness. Anyone who is focussed on clamping as tightly as possible is completely missing the point of a honing guide.
Here's a question - what proportion of your grip and downforce goes to the guide and what proportion to the blade?
If you have a death grip on the guide then you are doing it backwards. I said this earlier - think of the guide as an extension of your hand rather than a tool in your hand. Pretend that you are freehanding the blade, that is, concentrate on what the blade is doing on the honing media. Try and feel the bevel flat on the honing surface. You need to stop expecting the honing guide to do it for you, and realise that you are driving the process.
A guide is best thought of as providing a repeated blade angle, not as providing stability for the blade while you hone. Try and support the blade with your fingers and just let the guide follow in a way that it supports the honing angle. Essentially you are freehanding the blade at the business end while retaining support for the bevel angle.
Now if you want to try a different honing guide, one that will act as a great set of training wheels for freehanding, then try the Sharp Skate: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html
This is not a good guide for BU plane blades, but is excellent for all else.
One last word. In line with freehand honing, sharpening takes place on both sides of the blade. Larry correctly points out that a guide encourages one to concentrate only on the bevel face. One needs to work the back as well.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Have to disagree
The second issue is that you never use force on the LV knobs. It is not necessary to clamp down hard. In fact you are better off with moderate finger tightness. Anyone who is focussed on clamping as tightly as possible is completely missing the point of a honing guide.
I might be missing the point, but if I wanted to guide the chisel by hand why would I want a guide? Your MK might be different than mine, but I want the chisel to be held square and at the correct angle to the stone, which I thought was the purpose of a guide. This is not possible if you just tighten the knobs "finger tight" with the MKII. My chisels have all flat backs, and they still moved when I tried to do this finger tight. Currently I just tighten enough so that the beam that holds the chisel looks even and straight (not bowed) with MY MKII this is only possible if I tighten about half a turn with pliers.
If the purpose of a guide is to hold the chisel more or less square and more or less to the right angle, then you are right I am missing the point and we all who use a guide might as well learn how to do it free hand.
PS
Dont forget about the page long post about complaining about the people who complain about the gibberish or about complaining about the time people spend asking questions on Knots. Who really does have time to actually make furniture? Some knotheads must not sleep or must be getting paid big bucks to be on Knots because thats all they could possibly have time for with all their posts.
Its no wonder people refuse to get advise here. I like this forum because I get answers and I appreciate the humor that some people bring. But the real reason Im here is because the guys who are really good at our craft offer their knowledge without judgement. Plain and simple
Thanks to all who have posted and offered info
Mike
HA HA HA
Yeah, they are either getting paid or have a secretary who gets paid by the word judging by the size of the posts that offer no info.
Don't rely on the jig for squareness. On the waterstones, after a pass or two, look at the result. If the bevel is not even, adjust the chisel slightly (usually it can be done without loosening the guide at all because of the leverage you have with the chisel handle), and try again. When you've got an even bevel going across, proceed to finish sharpening with more passes and higher grits. Think of the jig as maintaining the bevel angle. You be in charge of squareness.
For your chisels that are out of square, use the same process, but allow a bevel to form that is bigger on the side that is too long until you get back to square.
Sean, good to see you again.
Sean,
Wow. Both Boss Crunk and Samson in the same thread. It seems like a long time ago. By the way, I saw Tony Z in Knots a few days ago.
Welcome back. I have missed the way you get down to the nub of an issue without being mean or self centered in any way. Wish you were here more often. You set a great example.
As far as jigs go, I have the Veritas Mark II and the side holding jig and I go free hand, depending on what I am doing. I taught two classes in sharpening at Woodcraft in the past few months. I brought both jigs and showed how to use both and how to free hand. My "cardinal rule of sharpening" was, and is: "Check your progress as you go." Which is pretty much what you said. If what you are doing isn't getting you where you want to go, make an adjustment.
What I have not been able to figure out is how folks like you and so many others have figured that out, and why so many others have not figured it out. It seems to me like the cardinal rule of LIFE ITSELF. Check to see if you are making sufficient progress toward your goal, and if you find you are not, then make an adjustment.
I guess that the real problem in really complex stuff, like sharpening ((an attempt at humor)) is that there are a lot of things that might need adjustment. So how do you figure out which one to adjust. To me, the answer is simple, make a list and work your way down. OF course, the best of the answers here was by Charles, who said that you are wearing your wheel unevenly. I love answers like that because they make you think. THey seem to be correct and incorrect at the same time - so you have to THINK. I find that answers which make you think, rather than providing you the answer, follow that old saw: give a person a fish, and you feed them for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
The best answer for just about all woodworking questions about something going wrong is: Stop, relax, think. THINK. THINK. What factors could have caused this to happen? MAKE A LIST. Think. Then check them out. THis takes a while, but it results in learning which sticks around for a lifetime.
The alternative to learning to think for yourself is: depending on writing to Knots every time you have a problem, and thinking about which of the many answers is the right one. Either way, you have to think, if your are going to spend fruitful time in the workshop.
Indeed, I am coming to the conclusion that the worst person you can learn woodworking from (or anything else) is a person who spoon feeds you the answers in small, discrete increments and demands that you follow their pronouncements exactly. That is an exhortation to stop thinking, and nothing could be worse. Such people often are bloggers of have massive websites of their writing.
Of course, Sean, my ideas are not mainstream. I look at the world as a set of learners. Others look at the world and see teachers and learners, and they see themselves as needing to be taught. Others look at the world and see themselves as a teacher. This group is very easy to spot. They are didactic by nature. I think of all of us as learning, and if we help each other figure things out (that does not mean giving them the answer), we all continually rise higher levels of capability.
The true purpose of a teacher should not be to give answers, but rather to free you from the need for a teacher. In other words, a good teacher teaches you how to teach and to grade yourself -- to become self sufficient. If there is one thing that is part of the definition of "a real woodworker" is - self sufficiency -- the confidence that I can read, study, get info, figure out what is a good thing to do, and get it done -- and if I screw up, I can get me out of it. Most people who consider themselves as teachers, want others to become dependent on them - not to become self sufficient. By definition, conventional teachers are to be avoided.
How was that for a didactic exhortation to be non-didactic?
See, you can't trust anyone around here. :-) Don't you just hate people who want you to do as they say rather than to do as they do? :-)
Hope the family is doing well. All is well around here. More grandkids, so more things to make. Have fun.
Mel
PS Remember - my advice and $4 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
Tinker, tinker, tinker....
If it's not square after a pass or two? It should only take three or four passes on each of two stones to raise the wire edge. Put the honing guide on eBay and just sharpen the chisel. Almost all my chisels are old ones and one of the common characteristics is that they're not a uniform thickness side to side. I could spend a bunch of time tinkering with a honing guide or a few seconds sharpening a chisel. I can't imagine anyone wasting time with a honing guide.
Good simple advice
Thats what I love about posting problems on this forum. You get all the angles some that are straight and some that are skewed. Thanks for the good advice Samson
The problem could actually be a dished stone. Check to make sure the surface is flat, side to side.
I did
Thanks Frozen but I flatten my water stones before every session of sharpening. This brings up another question How Often do you guys flatten your stones?
MEL shame on you! You are NASA...
I think the first NASA 'rover out in space' had less computer skills than a full function math calculator with just add, subtract and divide.. I think that my first hand held 'machine' was a Texas made... It could do square roots also and cost me about $300.00 USA.
I can now get the thing for about $3.00 of less!
Mel you are out of times and place.. Get a license to make Lady GaGa stuff. She is so nutty I sort of like her.. Sort of like some folks here in Knots that I like very much...
And I like horses for some reason.. Like a BIG DOG?
Takhi (Przewalski's horse)
Equus przewalskii
The Takhi, or Przewalski's horse, is the last true wild horse in the world.. Had a texas horse bite me in the leg.. It HURT alot..
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0114235/geography_PROTECTED_GOBI.htm
disembowel ? A bit Harsh idnit ?
Mell I don't think I have been a good influence on you over the years. Watch that caffeine buddy . . . easy does it . . .
>you have to torque down each of the two screws on the Mark II the same amount. Well, woodworkers can't judge that very well.<
Oh you haven't got the latest tool? Now all can torque with confidence
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tork-grip.html
I do relate to the OP. It bothers me too when the ground and polished area gets all crooked looking ( even though the edge is square(ish) to the longitudinal axis of the chisel ) when I sharpen. I just tell myself I will fix it some day and go on to the next tool to sharpen. The plane blades come out nice cause they are ground cold rolled plate and more accurately made for the most part so that makes up for it.
[ good to see the old "word processor" thing here is "Nominal" I can't even paste in a line; flashes on the screen and disappears. That's beautiful. Consistency is the mark of a champion]
>jig roller, and what type of cloth to wipe it off with<
I ALWAYS use a yellow dish cloth; that way there are no visually disturbing colored cloth fibers discernible on the roller.
That was a serious question wasn't it Mel ?
: )
>contact Thomas Lie Nielsen and Rob Lee and Philip Marcou and Ron Brese and Mike Wentzloff and of course, the Stanley Co, which now owns most of the universe. . . their engineers<
What was that you say ?
Those guys are starting their own space program. SWEEEEET ! ! !
Now we'll get out there !
I might 'a got that wrong; didn't read all of your post. You know how I hate long posts.
: )
ROC: ...I don't think I have been a good influence on you over the years.... Yes you talking to Mel...
I'd say that I enjoy every word you say in here. Do not sell yourself short! I may disagree sometimes but that is what makes life a challenge and always fun. I try not to take life very serious unless I am dealing with my children or my grandbabies....l always try to be a bit 'gruff' then because they seem to listen and I know, that they know, I am very serious and still 'goofing' with them at the same time..
As you said.. 'when I sharpen.' I do ... (whatever you said)..
I do use my Tormek sometimes but not very often.
I usually hone my Old Marples (I cannot afford better or even thought I need better.) In fact I have a set of China made chisels that go up to 2 inches wide.. They work great and the steel is not THAT bad... Not perfect but very useable.
I hone my chisels and plane blades on a diamond stone. I 'stroke' along the width of the blade. As in side-to-side.... I 'think' I save much time. I am not sure if I get the blade any sharper or even as sharp? I only find it easier to do and in less time doing it!
Horse ? Watch out for its spider family that follows it around
Will,
That ain't a horse that bit ya, that's a camel and that ain't Texas. Where have ya got your self off to now man ? Here, this guy will tell you all about how it is
http://www.amazon.com/Double-Time/dp/B00123HH1E/ref=sr_shvl_album_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1280864742&sr=301-2
Sean,
You have been "endeavoring to learn the lathe". Well, I studied (not merely perused) the photographs of your work. Your bowls are a delight to see, and would be a delight to hold and feel. I know more turners than furniture makers, and I see more turning than any other kind of woodworking. I know people who have been teaching turning for decades. None of their work holds a candle to yours.
You chose wood for beautiful grain, and you found ways to turn it to bring out the beauty of the grain. The curves of your bowls are subtle and simple. The finish you put on adds to the effect of the entire piece rather than overwhelming it.
I believe that anyone can learn to ride a bike, rebuild a kitchen, make furniture and turn bowls, but some have a gift that goes beyond. You are one of those people. I said that about the piece that you wrote about a few years ago, and I urged you to write more. You did, and you got rave reviews.
Here is a similar suggestion -- but a bit different. How about taking a week and thinking about writing an essay on "learning to turn bowls". Notice, I said "Essay" - that is, a personal statement. How did you go about taking your journey into bowl making? What were the things that concerned you when you started? What were the things you learned which changed your "preconceptions" the most? What were the ideas and who were the people who influence your designs, wood selection ..... your journey?
It would be truly exciting to be able to hear your thoughts about your journey -- to be able to see into your head -- to get a better understanding of your take on learning to turn.
This is quite different than a "step by step". It is more of Samsonian mind-meld. A brief glimpse into the mind of someone I consider a genius woodworker.
When I think of who are the best woodworkers here on Knots, I think of Ray Pine and Rob Millard. When I think of those who have a gift for design and the ability to bring design to reality, I think of you and Richard Jones.
Your bowls confirm what I have long thought.
My hat is off to you. Please think about an essay. In other words, suppose you could have gotten someone like Krenov or Alan Peters or ....... to write an essay which gave you insights into their thought processes on how they approach an area of woodworking. What types of things would you like to hear from them? That is what I want to hear from you about your personal journey into turning.
I hope I have piqued your interest in doing something that could be quite useful, and a lot of fun. Thank you for posting the photos of your bowls.
Mel
Mel, you are as crazy as ever. Very very kind, but crazy nonetheless.
Over at Sawmill Creek, not to mention in numerous magazines, books, and DVDs, I routinely see turnings that are miles ahead of mine. Miles and miles and miles (to quote the WHO). My basic proficiency is growing, but I ain't anywhere near all that.
I suppose I could write something about my learning process in the first 10 months of turning that might be of interest to newbies, as I've so recently experienced it, but I absolutely ain't no master holding forth.
Also, my approach is rather idiosyncratic from what I gather in listening to fellow turners at places like the Creek. As usual I just try to please myself, and it seems that most people's selves are pleased by different things when it comes to turning - lots more shiny finishes; lots more pure art (as opposed to utilitarian) pieces; etc.
One interesting overlap between flat work and turning is how quickly it becomes the challenge of good design. Even a nice curve on a bowl is a subtle and difficult achievement (at least for me), to say nothing of trying to come up with a new design for the legs and spindles that make up a chair, table, etc.!
I'll think about it, but I sort of don't think folks would be as interested in "An Intermediate Turner's Reflections on His Recent Journey Into the Vortex Known as Woodturning!" as they were in building a frame and panel door by hand.
Thanks again for all the ego stroking though. Crazy and wrongheaded as I know it is, it's nice to pretend it might be true, at least on Tuesdays, in Mel's World!
Namaste.
Sean,
You have been "endeavoring to learn the lathe". Well, I studied (not merely perused) the photographs of your work. Your bowls are a delight to see, and would be a delight to hold and feel. I know more turners than furniture makers, and I see more turning than any other kind of woodworking. I know people who have been teaching turning for decades. None of their work holds a candle to yours.
You chose wood for beautiful grain, and you found ways to turn it to bring out the beauty of the grain. The curves of your bowls are subtle and simple. The finish you put on adds to the effect of the entire piece rather than overwhelming it.
I believe that anyone can learn to ride a bike, rebuild a kitchen, make furniture and turn bowls, but some have a gift that goes beyond. You are one of those people. I said that about the piece that you wrote about a few years ago, and I urged you to write more. You did, and you got rave reviews.
Here is a similar suggestion -- but a bit different. How about taking a week and thinking about writing an essay on "learning to turn bowls". Notice, I said "Essay" - that is, a personal statement. How did you go about taking your journey into bowl making? What were the things that concerned you when you started? What were the things you learned which changed your "preconceptions" the most? What were the ideas and who were the people who influence your designs, wood selection ..... your journey?
It would be truly exciting to be able to hear your thoughts about your journey -- to be able to see into your head -- to get a better understanding of your take on learning to turn.
This is quite different than a "step by step". It is more of Samsonian mind-meld. A brief glimpse into the mind of someone I consider a genius woodworker.
When I think of who are the best woodworkers here on Knots, I think of Ray Pine and Rob Millard. When I think of those who have a gift for design and the ability to bring design to reality, I think of you and Richard Jones.
Your bowls confirm what I have long thought.
My hat is off to you. Please think about an essay. In other words, suppose you could have gotten someone like Krenov or Alan Peters or ....... to write an essay which gave you insights into their thought processes on how they approach an area of woodworking. What types of things would you like to hear from them? That is what I want to hear from you about your personal journey into turning.
I hope I have piqued your interest in doing something that could be quite useful, and a lot of fun. Thank you for posting the photos of your bowls.
Mel
Larry, the OP asked for help with a jig. While not using a jig is one answer, I suppose, it's not really addressing what he wants to know which is how to make the jig work. He probably knew before trying the jig that sharpening without one was an option, but chose to try the jig for whatever reason.
Just because you like your way, does not mean that it is the best way for eveyone or that others cannot obtain excellent results with other methods.
To those who have had in-person training from an old hand, or have just been at it so long that it has become second nature, I think it's easy to forget how hard and intimidating sharpening can be for a beginner, especially a beginner who is standing alone in his garage or basement trying to do what he's only read about.
And as far as your characterization of sharpening as a mere six strokes, that's not always the way it goes, especially when you are sharpeing either a vintage chisel you are rehabilitating or a set of new, never used chisels. Indeed, sometimes we need to change angles or sharpen out nicks and things as well. Also, taking , oh, about 3 seconds, literally, to look at the shiny bevel is not a major time waster. One might well pause briefly to check results when sharpening any sort of blade even completely freehand.
Why some, like yourself, seem to take personal affront to sharpening jigs is beyond me. It's just another tool.
Samson,
I take affront to honing guides because they're a dead-end. Even if people manage some success with them, they're incredibly handicapped when it comes to sharpening profiled tools like gouges or the simplest molding planes. The real problem with honing guides is they cause people to focus on the wrong thing. The honed bevel is a snap, the difficult part is the other half of every cutting edge.
I don't know how many times I've taught a molding plane making workshop but it's been a lot. Invariably a person or three comes up to me and says something like, "I had no idea sharpening could be this easy." A significant number have told me they'd completely given up and one said he'd done that after buying something like $3,000 worth of jigs, stones and paraphernalia. Some people don't say anything but suddenly have all their chisels and plane irons on the stones we take with us. I've learned we have to allow extra time in the workshops for people to sharpen all their tools after they've learned basic sharpening by sharpening their molding plane irons. I get e-mails after the workshops with people telling me how much space they've gained in their shops by getting rid of unnecessary sharpening stuff or saying they now never have to sharpen more than one tool at a time because all their tools are sharp when they put them away.
It's incredibly easy and is just another traditional trade practice. It's not skill, it's process and steps. The price of admission is getting and maintaining repeatably flat backs and stones, and learning basic grinding techniques. Even something as difficult as rehabbing an abused old tool ends up with exactly the same few strokes on the stones. The work is getting the back flat and free of defects like pitting and grinding an appropriate new bevel. You sure don't need a honing guide for getting it ready to hone.
Larry, you're really laying a lot of baggage on the doorstep of a simple jig that holds chisels and plane blades at a constant and repeatable angle. I really don't think the poor Veritas jig is responsible for all the sharpening ignorance and ineptness in the world.
Anyway, given how hungry the masses are for this sharpening information (look at the thousands of dollars each may spend on "useless" sharpening equipment), you really owe it to yourself and your heirs to make a video and some sort of Clark and Williams sharpening "kit" (I assume that would be like two oilstones or something) for the masses to purchase. ;-) Why leave all that money for Tormek and all the other false prophets?
I notice another thing about your approach to sharpening. It apparently takes for granted a grinder:
"... learning basic grinding techniques. Even something as difficult as rehabbing an abused old tool ends up with exactly the same few strokes on the stones. The work is getting the back flat and free of defects like pitting and grinding an appropriate new bevel."
Those grinders aren't so cheap or intuitive to use (not to mention the threat of overheating the steel) and tend to take up valuable shop space! I'm also under the impression that they tend to require platforms at the front of the wheel that effectively "jigs" the cutting angle on the bevel, no? Do you grind scorps, adzes, drawknives? If so, do you find it simple? Do you think it's simple for a beginner to even grind a gouge bevel?
On a sufficiently course stone, I can grind a new bevel on a 1/2 chisel in a minute or two without any threat of overheating - and have saved the expense of a grinder. While you apparently wouldn't mind the use the grinder platform in establishing this bevel, if I were to use a Veritas jig, for effectively the same purpose, it would be a travesty.
Sean, In part you said, "I
Sean,
In part you said, "I notice another thing about your approach to sharpening. It apparently takes for granted a grinder..."
Yeah, is there something surprising about that? Grinding has been assumed as far back as books and instructions have been written in English. Starting with Joseph Moxon in the late 1600's ( http://tinyurl.com/2uubtw4 , see page 74) to Peter Nicholson in the 1840's ( http://tinyurl.com/2wcut5s , see the section on jack planes on page 91) to Stanley's sharpening instructions ( http://tinyurl.com/272or2a , the back of a 1970's plane iron package). It's okay, woodworkers have been grinding for centuries.
"...Those grinders aren't so cheap or intuitive to use (not to mention the threat of overheating the steel) and tend to take up valuable shop space! I'm also under the impression that they tend to require platforms at the front of the wheel that effectively "jigs" the cutting angle on the bevel, no? Do you grind scorps, adzes, drawknives? If so, do you find it simple? Do you think it's simple for a beginner to even grind a gouge bevel?..."
Where to start? We paid less than the cost of a MKII honing guide for one of the grinders we use in our shop and it's one we take to workshops for people to use. One can get a reasonable grinder for about half the cost of the honing guide. Grinders also give you a lot of other capability.
I don't own a scorp and never sharpened one. I have fixed the cutting edge of a wooden spoke shave, which is much the same, with a grinder. Adzes, like axes, are intended to have their cutting edges shaped with a file. I removed some of the pitting on my drawknife with a grinder. I didn't have any trouble with the spokeshave or the drawkife. If a beginner was shown good grinding technique, which begins by establishing the location of the new cutting edge, they could easily handle a normal gouge. In-cannel gouges are more difficult but I don't know anyone who initially found them easy.
Can one over heat a tool in grinding? Yeah, they can also drop it on a concrete floor. The best advise is don't do either. I'm not sure where FOG disorder (fear of grinding) got so much traction on the Internet. It may have been with Steve LaMantia's popularizing his Scared of Sharpening (TM) system in 1995. I thought it was earlier than that but that's what a link I found said. Grinding techniques are simple and easy to learn. Like centuries of authors and writers, I think grinding is a key to efficient edge tool maintenance.
Here is a link to a very good guide to hand sharpening . http://antiquetools.com/sharp/ The article, which appears on Tools for Working Wood's site, was written by Maurice Fraser and is based on his teachings at the Craft Student's League, when it gave excellent wood working courses at the YWCA at 53rd and Lex. in Manhattan. Maurice could take a class of folks who may never have even seen a chisel before, and within the first class have them honing shaving sharp blades, with never a honing guide. It's easy, and fast. In the group of 20 I was in, almost no one failed to get the hang of it in one Thursday night session.
Yes it is greatly helped by the hollow grind from a grinder, but there are so many uses for a grinder in a shop that I can't imagine not having one. I can imagine the torment of trying to remove a nick from a blade with a series of sandpapers. I'd be running screaming from the shop if I had to do that as often as I grind a bevel. (Worse, unless you have VERY good skills, flattening a back of a chisel on sandpaper is quite prone to dub the edge, making proper honing a very long and ardous task.
Hi Larry
It is not that you are wrong about honing guides (in my opinion), or a number of other issues for that matter (again in my opinion), but it is that you attempt to "educate" in a dogmatic manner. It is either your way or the highway.
Not everyone wants to freehand blades. Indeed not everyone can. There are those with motor skills difficulties, whether age, injury or health related. Then there are those that simply want a sharp edge and do not want to learn new skills.
Those who wish to develop handskills will do so, perhaps not in the time frame you set, nor in the manner you expect, as most enjoy setting their own pace. While some are willing to dive in at the deep end, others need encouragement to move out of their comfort zone.
When someone on a forum asks for specific advice, the first response should be to answer their question. Once that is out of the way, then are you free to provide an alternate view. That is simple respect.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Yep
>To those who have had in-person training from an old hand, or have just been at it so long that it has become second nature, I think it's easy to forget how hard and intimidating sharpening can be for a beginner, especially a beginner who is standing alone in his garage or basement trying to do what he's only read about.<
> Why some, . . . , seem to take personal affront to sharpening jigs is beyond me. It's just another tool.<
So true.
Those are some fantastic points that I had not thought of. I figured that I might be over tightening but I had not thought of the possibility that the front and back of my chisels were not parallel. I expect that could be the case with them but I would expect more from my new Lie-Nielsens. I will check them though.
I have at least temporarily solved the issue with checking the chisels squareness to the body of the jig and since I have started doing that with my Starrett square I have solved the problem. I guess I should say that my Lie-Nielsens are done and look great as I have not redone my Marples.
I will be checking the face and back and will be interested to see if its a factor or not in the future. It is possible that I tighten the jig to tightly and that is what is throwing the chisel out of square to the registration fence
MEL: I have a new grandbaby boy.
Last week, on monday.. He was 8 pounds 10 ounces and the father is Italian. His older brother (A local firefighter) had the fire department drive up to the house when the new baby was brought home. They sounded off with the sirens for a few seconds.. They had premmision from the local folks that make the laws.. The village has a telephone warning systen to tell the locals what is going on or what will happen.. Keeps down the 911 calls...
Anyway, the baby and mother are fine. Not sure if the hubbie is... The new male baby will have to live with the name of GABRIELE .. Poor boy.. I had many, many fist fights over my name of Wilbert....
http://www.behindthename.com/name/gabriel
His older sister is named Giana. I think the parents dropped one 'n'. In Itallion, I am sure it would be Gianna.. Not sure...
And my child, the mother, is the only woman/girl in the family that looks like my long passed on wife.. Her mother was very special to me and she will use it to her advantage!
Thanks Derek
I appreciate all your comments Derek. I value your opinion. You are one of the guys that I hope to get answers from on this forum. I am going to try and do the things you talked about and see how it goes. I dont need a pliers to tighten my guide down but I do seem to need a little more force than what you seem to be describing. I thought that I took enough time to get the back of my chisels flattened but I will check again. I seem to be getting much better results after I started this knot. Once I tighten the down the guide i am not having a problem with the chisel moving during the act of sharpening. It just wasn' getting lined up square to the stone to begin with. I will take a look at the other honing guide and appreciate the time you have put into this knot
Thanks
Mike
still having problems veritas
Does your jig registers a dip below the bevel, cause mine always shows and feels one under a stable granite block with the jig?
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