So much is written on this forum about getting tools cheap. People drive all over to save a few bucks. Sometimes it seems price is all that counts. Gloat.
I bought the latest router from a popular tool company this week. I have a few routers but after seeing the promo material on this model I thought there would be some speed and convenience that would be useful with this tool.
Went through the manual and tried each feature of the router. A good concept but in trying to make this tool sell at a low price the manufacturer missed the mark – it’s not a quality tool and I don’t think it would last. I returned it the next day.
I would be willing to pay twice the price for this router if it was a really well made quality tool. I wonder if there are other woodworkers that feel this way and I wonder if any of the tool companies would be willing to make some premium tools.
Replies
Hi Corners - Sorry the new router isn't what you had hoped...it might be beneficial to others to know what router your referring to.
I'm guessing Triton.
John
It's not that I'm dissapointed in one specific brand of router - the problem for me is that there are no routers of the quality I would like to buy. I believe the price issue is controlling the quality. I have a 30 year old Craftsman router and it's as good or better quality than many of the current routers. However many of the current routers have some great design concepts. If the quality of manufacture had advanced as much as the design concepts I would be a happy tool buyer but the quality and fit of the parts making up the tools are in my opinion going downhill forced by market price pressure. I also doubt if many or in fact any of the current routers will still be in use 30 years from now if they are well used.
On this forum there are wooden chairs shown which sell for thousands of dollars - you can't buy them from Walmart or from an internet discount house. There are customers for these chairs. I would be a customer for high end tools and I wonder how many others would be interested. For me a superior tool is a real joy - an ordinary tool is a frustration. In this statement I'm refering to solid functionality not collectable fantasy tools such as gold plated walnut burl inlaid squares.
Tools should evolve continuously in both concept and quality.
There are some very high quality tools out there, but regrettably most are hand tools. things like L-N handplanes ect. The problem maybe that with powertools you are looking for the wrong tools. A high end router for instance may not exist because very many of the top artists in this trade do very little work with a router. Many use a shaper when they have to but use a large assortment of profiling cutting handplanes rabbetting planes and ect to do the work most of us delegate to a router. kinda takes away the market for a high end for most companies.
Exactly -
I have high quality hand tools - they are easy to find.
But I can't find equally high quality power tools.
After a lifetime in engineering management positions, I converted my lifelong interest in woodworking into a career change and went to work in a high-end cabinet shop. Among the 40 or so builders, there is a wide range of talent, commitment and craftsmanship. There is also a wide range in the collection of personal tools that each builder has.
One of the guys is a tool fanatic, for sure. Only the most expensive will do and he will argue all day long about the value of owning, using and caring for the most expensive items.
Another has a basic collection of hand and power tools. Nothing with an expensive name attached to it. All items show that they have been used well, although are maintained well.
Guess which one consistently has the best performance? Yep -- guy number two.
For my example above, I had two specific guys in mind but the same comparison could have been drawn between others in the shop.
Bottom line? It's not the cost or perceived quality of a person's tools that count -- it's the quality of the craftsman!
'He who dies with the most tools' may be a cute t-shirt slogan, but more importantly is he who dies happy with his life.
If the spindle lock doesn't work and the bit can't be changed neither guy number 1 or guy number 2 can do any work with this tool at all.
The quality issue with a router is nothing to do with individual craftsmanship, it's mass production and market price pressures. The tool buying woodworker has made it clear that they want cheap tools. Is it possible that there are enough other tool buyers that would be willing to pay more for a quality tool that some smart marketing person at one tool company might recognize this and convince the company there is another market to serve.
Corners,
I've read and re-read many of the posts and agree with 'aj' that people just won't buy high quality/high priced power tools....in general. We will spend for higher quality than needed for things like cabinet saws....jointers...bandsaws...but for power tools a thicker housing material, needle bearings, etc. make a tool higher quality...but not enough ROI for the hobbiest.
I got power tools from the 50's from my father....the darn things won't die. Recently I got a 1/4 sheet finish sander for free...it does not have the quality or heft of the 50's power tools...however, the cheap little sander performs three times better than the old stuff....must be those engineers (lol).
My point is, I really don't want to pay for tools that will last 50 years....going 7/24....I want to buy new every 7-10 years and get the new improvements.
Maybe what we need are tools where you can swap out certain parts to produce better quality ...
Oh Brother...
I hate to make my first posting on this fine forum a negative one, but you've pressed a button of mine that demands response.
What the heck are you talking about? Quality tools? Can't even imagine what you are getting at. You bought a bum router, and it frustrated you. I can understand that. However, there are plenty to tools out there that work fine, day in day out, in almost production like conditions. My main router is an ELU, bought in the mid 80s, and it works as well today as it did when new. That ain't 30 years yet, but also isn't bad.
Of course you get what you pay for, and a guy who'll spend hours chasing around to save $50 is his own punishment, over time. However, your postings look pretty much like an indictment of the tool industry as a whole, and I don't buy it. I can't imagine that you are cranking out so much stuff that you are wearing out tools. My drill press and my RAS were both purchased in 1982 -- and NOT top of the line stuff, and they are terrific today. Other tools are newer, and also NOT top of the line, and they are also serving me well.
Sure, buy from HF or some Pacific Rim companies, and you are asking for trouble. That is NOT, though, the blanket indictment you seem to present.
The 'old saw' seems to really hold true...'it's a poor workman who blames his tools!' I see a fantastic amount of good work being done with all those inferior tools you dislike, and I see a lot of tools being used all day every day for years. I guess most folks just don't need the quality you do.
Finally, I suppose you miss the irony in your comments...dichotomy to say the least. You want tools with lots of wonderful features that will last 30 years or more...and you'd pay extra for them. And then you close by noting that the most important thing is that tools evolve over time. Which is it...get the newest stuff, or use the old stuff forever. If you are still using tools from 30 years ago, all that evolution has just passed you by.
My budget is limited by the fact that I am merely a career postal worker, and couldn't buy the stuff you demand anyway. For many of us, the tool is the journey, and the completed project is the destination. My tools -- such as they are -- get me there just fine, and give me pleasure. Sorry that your experience is so much the opposite.
Or, your anti tool tirade is just hyperbole, and you are doing just fine.
YMMV
Terry in Iowa
Nothing anti tool - in fact the exact opposite - tools have been my life. I have been using tools for about 50 years. Tool design was my major in engineering school. I have done tool research in a machine lab. I have taught the use of computer operated tools all over North America.
Go out to buy a car and you can choose fom a Yugo to a Mercedes. Buy a strereo and you have even more range of choice. Go out to buy a mid sized router and they are so similar and directed at such a narrow segment of the market that when a magazine does a review they can hardly choose one from another. There is a market for a really cheap router and those are available. There is a market for a mid priced router and those are available. There is a market for a high priced, quality router and those aren't available.
The router that I bought and returned was well conceived but made of low quality parts. The nicely conceived features simply didn't work well. The manufacturer could have put another 30 bucks into the cost of manufacture and sold the tool for 50 to 100 bucks more. This is the tool I want to buy.
Is there something wrong with asking a manufacturing company to excel at what they do?
Well this is an interesting debate. I always buy the cheapest tools I can get. I only use them from time to time but I have never had one break on me. If I was doing this as a job I would of course buy high quality stuff but since I am not I will not spend 500$ on a drill when one at 30$ does the same job.
So when you say that high quality tool will break the first time you use them I have pretty sure that is so rare that it is not even worth mentioning. Anyone here ever had tool break on them a short time after purchase? How about break at all? I have never seen a power tool break but I don't have much experience so I am not a reference.
Your point is well taken, but too narrowly applied.
You are absolutely correct that when shopping for cars you can buy -- metaphorically speaking anyway -- anything from a Yugo to a Mercedes. ( we happen to drive two BMW M Roadsters here, so are at least a bit familiar with shopping for quality and features). And if you compare the MB to the ultra low cost vehicle, your appeal for quality is obvious.
However, you are mixing apples with oranges, and only wanting to look at the apples. Just as you say, when the woodworking magazines do a router comparo -- for example -- they compare a dozen different routers from as many manufacturers -- ALL in the same price and feature range. Naturally they are similar...they all appeal to exactly the same market segment. The mags do NOT compare a 1hp Sears router to a 3hp 'upscale' electronic plunge router...just as the car mags NEVER compare that MB with that Yugo. (when comparing cars, the mags always pick models from exactly the same niche...and those comparisons also make it hard to distinguish one from another.) It is not in the nature of comparison publishing to do that. Your suggestion that by merely comparing the $100 routers from each maker that somehow that proves that those are the ONLY choices, is pretty simplistic, and does not serve you well.
You definitely get what you pay for. I think you are implying that that is not the case...that you pay more and get less. I don't find that to be the case. Just as I would NOT buy that 1hp Sears router for my use (though I did 25 years ago, and of course it did not last long), I also wouldn't tirade against it; it is merely inappropriate to my uses.
You've been working with this stuff for a long time -- though you are far from unique in that. Clearly, those of us who have been doing it a while have somehow managed to muddle through with the selection of 'crappy' tools available to us. Personally -- and being completely frank -- it just seems to me a bit of an elitist POV to state that none of the tools around are good enough for YOU. They are for some of the rest of us, and I can get to sleep tonight without worrying that my shop is full of functionless, low quality tools.
And I say again, the tool is only the means to get there -- at least for me and a few others. The completed project is the end we seek. My assortment of tools is sufficient to get me there.
(I include the photo ONLY to show that my approach to things in life is NOT to seek the yugos or the HF tools...it is to get the best I can, of what I want, with the limited means I have available. AND, I am constantly happy with the results.
Terry in Iowa
Corners-
I was re-reading all the posts here and began to wander about the "features" you want from a router. I have three PC routers that have served me well over the years, and what I like about them is their simplicity...two wrenches to tighten or loosed the chuck, a straight shaft, and reasonable power for the job at hand. Oh, and the ability to hold a setup for many repetitive cuts.
Yes, I abandoned the inexpensive power tools in my collection when I was able...and then realized the skill has to come from me. As others have observed, power tools are a great way to do things quickly, but you need to be able to perform these operations by hand if you're going to do a "proper" job with a power tool...the only difference between a hand tool and a power tool is the latter uses electricity while the former uses calories. And mistakes happen much faster with power tools!
I prefer discussions that add value to our body of knowledge. I bailed out of the corporate world so I could stop listening to complaints without solutions.
Show off :)If nothing sticks to Teflon,how does Teflon Stick to metal. Huh
Getting back to your original value question: When you commented that you'd be willing to pay twice as much for a better router that had more features, I think you answered your own question. If you can buy 2 routers that will do the work of one super router and the end result is the same price, then the 2 router option would be the better value because there'd be less lost time for set ups.
What is the brand of the router?
Is there something wrong with asking a manufacturing company to excel at what they do?
Yea Festool and Bosch do just what you want.
I bought a small Elu router when they came out with all the accesories and have been happy with it for years and still am.
There are quality tools out there but they cost more and won't have all the bells and whistles.
If you buy a router and some of it's parts fail the first day how in the heck is intelligence going to rout the sliding dovetail?
I suppose those workers in the router factory must have really excellent tools so they can make a poor product. Maybe they should get some low quality tools, add some intelligence and then they could make some high quality routers.
Or is it possible that the company recognising a potential market could assign a team to design a router made of higher precision parts and better materials which would function better and longer than those currently on the market? I would be a part of this market willing to pay more for this tool.
Perhaps you wouldn't.
A comment was made on this forum regarding most high quality tools are generally in the form of hand tools. Please allow me to add my two cents in the quality power tool catagory, Festool rocks.
I think the market offers a wide range in quality, and that to a large degree you get what you pay for. I've been very impressed with the quality of Festo power tools. Somewhat expensive, but very well-designed and well-made. Great service too. I have a Festo router that is a delight to use. It's a bit small, but offers a lot of finesse for critical jig work like dovetails and smaller M&Ts. I also have a larger, heavier, and generally more robust Fein router that is more suitable for larger M&Ts, and router table work. I think you can find a solution. Nick
Funny this conversation comes up today...My neighbor is just starting out in woodworking..He saw My shop and was hooked...now..about tool quality..My advice to him was..buy what you can afford..then move up when you can..today..I took him to the local outlet store...he purchased a 50.00$ 1 3/4 hp Craftsman router..very basic and simple...I spent the day with him showing him with his limited tools..(cheap table saw..old miter box..and new router) how to build a decent basic router table...all said and done...the router table turned out very well..flat..straight and works great..the thing is..the router vibrated alot..and eventually the height adjustment lever lock popped loose..hhmmmm...after about 5min of staring at the table..the router lever..I made a simple wooden lever..swings over..holds the lock lever in place...tighten the wing nut..done...he probably could have taken it back..but thats almost 2 hours of time..the router lock stays put when free handing..but the table vibration works it loose..point is..buy what you can afford..use a little ingenuity and move on...but if tool quality has you this upset...your not getting what you should from working wood.....
JC
Carpenter-
I couldn't agree with you more. I think that a lot of people get hung up on buying top of the line (i.e. expensive) tools and either give up because the tools are so expensive, or never utilize the capabilities of the few tools thay have.
I'm not suggesting that someone buy the cheapest thing available, but having a wider collection of 'middle grade' tools allows someone to learn more and better define their specific needs when they 'outgrow' the tools and are ready to upgrade.
I've gone thru a great many tools over the last 20+ years. Some I've never replaced, others were replaced in kind, and the rest were upgraded when I had a better idea of what I really needed.
I'll be the first to tell you that you don't have to have the best of tools to create beautiful work ... but ... looking back on expensive tools I have purchased, I can think of no regrets (except maybe not waiting for a sale!!), but I sure as h*ll can think of some tools I have (or had) where I wish I'd bought better.
You don't have to buy the most expensive to have a fine quality tool, but a cheap tool is always a poor purchase.
Dale
I think another consideration is what sort of work you do. For me, my most important tool for precision is my drill press. Much of my work is done with the drill press.
I have a brand new Delta drill press the best of their "home" units. As soon as I can afford it, I will buy a low end industrial unit with 6" of quill travel and variable speed.
I have a crappy craftsman table saw that I leave in the rain in the winter, but it does everything I ask of it, which isn't much. I would probably be happier with a tiny desktop model.
I don't even have a jig saw...but for some, nothing less than a Heagner (sic) would do. So take a long hard look at what your doing and concentrate your money on the tools that make a real difference for the kind of work you do.
Michael
as a professional woodworker, buy what you can afford. just remember the beginning of this post. it is not the tool that does the work it is the craftsman that does it.
I would rather buy low to midrange tools, so that I have money to buy high end wood.
when you are done with a project what shows is the wood and your ability.
my opinion, over the next 50 years good wood will get more expensive, my old tools will still last but will not be as good as what the will be making, and I will want to upgrade and lastly my ability to make a project look better will get better over time because I have learned more from others and my mistakes.
David
http://WWW.darbynwoods.com
I must take exception with that statement. Grizzley is about the cheapest stationary tools out there, yet I am pleased as punch with those I have bought..
Since I'm well on my way towards having worked 40,000 bd.ft. of hardwood building my timberframe I know quality is in those machines.. (frankly they can do better work than I can)
the purchase of more expensive equipment would have forced me to delay their purchase and forced me to delay or not evan start this project..
I have a set of Lie Nelson's planes and while they are nice, frankly I'm not skilled enough to appreciate their features. I bought them on the mistaken impression that mere ownership would increase my skill levels..
While everyone always comments about them they pretty much remain in wrappers untill I become skilled enough with the Stanleys' that I've owned for decades..
Maybe I should be honest with myself and just put them on display kinda as a testament to my having "arrived"
Those blessed with real talent can do marvelous work with crudest of implements ("Poppie hollowed the seats of his windsor chairs using a sharpened bicycle sprocket on a motor-driven shaft.) Those with low talent will forever wonder, "Is it their lack, or the tool's lack." If one uses quality stuff at least that question will be answered. ;-)
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled