To All ,
Tell how you look at this subject .
Much debate occurs regarding sanding or scraping or planning . Do you think a hand made profile or detail can be finished without sanding but not a machine made one ?
Some folks sneer at us who sand instead of scrape or use other non abrasive methods , sort of like the ” Fly Fisherman vs the Bait Fisherman ” If all work was flat with little or no detail or profiles scraping would seem more doable .I think of running a set of cabinet doors without sanding them , gives me the willy’s.
When we are done and the piece is polished or otherwise finished to a perfect luster can one tell the difference ? if so how ? and why is one better than the other ?
For a person who makes a living from custom woodworking all I can say is I have never had a client ask or care much about the process more about the final results . When they feel the wood and see the beauty that was created just for them they are content and without reservation or buyers remorse .
regards dusty
Edited 8/28/2007 2:03 am ET by oldusty
Replies
Dusty,
I've never seen a scraped surface that did not require sanding; done well it doesn't require much sanding, but some sanding is necessary, especially if finishing with a water based product.
If the wood cooperates, I have made profiles with molding planes that did not need sanding, but I'm not sure if that is what you mean by "hand made profile/detail" In skilled hands some carving can be accomplished without sand paper (I can't personally do it).
I doubt that a well sanded surface would be distinguishable from one scraped and sanded, when viewed under a finish. The problem I see, is with belt sanders being used to level surfaces; under oblique lighting the surface is a mushy undulating mess. More or less the same thing happens with RO sanders and orbital sanders; the surface is not one crisp plane. While I have not used one, I think a wide stationary belt sander could produce an excellent surface.
For the kind of work I do, making period reproductions, only the hand plane will do for solid wood surfaces. It leaves behind a subtle but important texture, that anything but the lightest sanding would ruin.
I see sanding as an absolutely necessary step in surface preparation, but it shouldn't be used as way to remove significant amounts of stock. I once worked 6 weeks full time on building a Federal secretary, but only a half hour to 45 minutes was spent sanding, just prior to applying the finish. I actually spent far more time sanding/rubbing out the finish than I did on the raw wood.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
I think that carving might be the real exception to the sanding / scraping debate, no matter how good you are.
Carving with gouges leaves facets on the surface that grab light from all sorts of angles. There are old carvers that argue this property is what brings archtecural carvings to life. Personally, I am much more reliable keeping crisp edges if I scrape rather than sand - Its a bit of a tradeof for me because I might like the finish from sanding but really dont want to loose the corners - and i can always tell if someone has dubbed off corners with sanding.
dave
Hi Rob ,
Perhaps with the type and style of your work (which is beautiful) the methods you use are superior and produce the desired results. Just as Orbital and belt sanding do the job on the more standard types of case work (not reproduction works) imo they each have their place .
Yes I did mean molding planes and such as hand made not machined , it makes sense since it is not cut by a rotational cutter , rather straight strokes as you say when the wood cooperates little sanding may be needed.
Wide belt sanders produce a very even surface , however they do not eliminate final sanding and still they leave some cross grain scratches on door rails for example . The softer grain and parts of the board may still become uneven.
thanks for your reply
dusty
Dusty,
I avoid any sanding that is not absolutely necessary. As you have stated this is not a problem on flat surfaces, however on machine cut profiles you do not have much choice. The flat surfaces can for the most part be hand planed and then sanded with 220 grit paper, this allows you to avoid 2 or 3 grits of laborious sanding, and in my experience I get much less grain raising with water based finishes using this technique, surfaces that are prepared starting with 80 or 100 grit sandpaper and working thru the grits will be much more likely to develope low spots where the softer areas of wood were removed more than the harder areas and will not be as flat as a surface planed and sanded with 220 grit, the surface prepared with extensive sanding thur several grits will also require preraising of the grain prior to using a waterbased colorant or top coat.
Machine cut profiles however just have to be sanded and the grain preraisied prior to finishing with waterborne colorants, scraping would help but not all profiles lend themselves to scraping. I typically sand all surfaces to 220 grit just to get a consistent scratch pattern so that the colorants used will absorb consistently. As to whether or not one could tell the difference between a surface that was sanded in lieu of being hand planed, I think the surface that was hand planed and sanded with 220 grit would be flatter than the surfaces prepared exclusively with abrasives.
Ron
I've never had a customer ask whether I sand, scrape, or plane. In fact, none of them have ever asked whether I use hand tools or power tools. If my work meets their needs and looks good, they write the check(s) and are as happy as clams.
On a side note, only one customer has ever asked about dovetail drawer boxes. (I rarely do them and have never had a drawer failure.) I told her I could do them if she wants, but the cost would go up because of the additional labor involved. She will make her decision after we finish her kitchen design and I generate the pricing. - lol
Dave ,
My clients come to me most often because they either have seen my work or were referred by a past client . After the design process and quote typically the only question they ask is when can I deliver .
I take the same approach on DT drawers as you . I think on say a kitchen when they ask about DT it tells me they have been shopping at a kitchen center or the likes. Imo many of the modular cabinet outfits offer a beautiful DT solid wood drawer box often fitted with quality slides to take the customers attention away from the pile of 1/2" or less boxes that leave much to be desired , sort of like at the furniture store the cheapest pieces are usually finished with the a high gloss top coat .
I have built thousands of drawer boxes and never had a failure , I have had a few pair of slides fail but not the box . I used to say my drawers will hold water , until one day this old timer asked me why I would want to put water in a drawer .
regards dusty
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