Replies

1. 
   RDNZL | Apr 03, 2008 04:17am | #1

   Bob -

   Oil soluble dye powders will do what you are looking for. Woodworker's Supply, and undoubtably other suppliers, have them in a wide variety of intermixable colors.

   Just a suggestion: save the wipe on for the final coat or two, and use thinned poly (dyed if you wish or need to) for the initial coats - you will get a faster build. Also practice so as to minimize striping.

   Good luck!

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 03, 2008 05:45am | #2

   While you can tint the wipe on varnish, I don't really recommend it.  Minwax has already tried something like it.  They call it Polyshades, and for many people it is about the worst finishing product sold.  Tinted top coats are great when you have the equipment and skill to spray them on evenly.  Wiping them on is very difficult to get that even a finish. 

   All is not lost however.  There are several solutions to your problem.  I usually find that the most satisfactory way to apply the basic color, especially to ring porous woods like maple, is to use a dye.  With a wipe on oil based finish, a powdered water soluble dye is a good choice.  Dye penetrates much more evenly, especially if you flood the surface with it, just wiping off real excess.  I usually use a clean kitchen sponge.  You have to experiment on largish scraps of the same wood to get the concentration right for the effect you want.  I usually end up with less concentrated dye than the manufacturer's recommendations.  By the way, you can't tell how the dye will look until a coat of the top coat you will use has been applied.   

3. 
   terrylee86 | Apr 03, 2008 04:19pm | #3

   Steve is right about the water based dye stains.  General Finishes carries a premixed water dye stain you can try at Woodcraft if you don't want to mix your own. It is a little more labor intensive because of the grain raising effect.  I have had very good luck with Mohawk wiping stains (not the ultra penetrating) on woods like cherry, maple (hard & soft) and even pine. You can get these at http://www.woodfinisherssource.com/cart/Tek9.asp?pg=default

   You may also want to try a gel stain.  General Finishes makes an excellent product as do others.  Tinting lacquer gives a great shading effect, tinting wipe on finishes generally does not work at all.  Steve is right about Polyshades; it does not work very well.

    

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 03, 2008 06:35pm | #4

   I couldn't find any line of General Finishes Water based stains that are solely dye based, though there may be some particular colors that are all or nearly all dyes.  But what I saw had a binder included, while dyes don't include a binder. 

1. 
   terrylee86 | Apr 04, 2008 05:20pm | #5

   Steve,Check on http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=20491 I checked other websites and could not find it as well. I was in a Woodcraft store and the finishing guy took me in the shop and showed how well this stuff works for dark stains on maple. Woodcraft might have an exclusive on the stuff, because my local supplier has never heard of it and can't get it to come up on his computer.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 04, 2008 06:03pm | #6

   Neat.  I now find it as a new product under the Enduro line of "Industrial" products on the General Finishes web pages.  Looks like it may be a NGR type stain, though there is no MSDS on the web pages as of yet.  (Where the MSDS is supposed to be there is a data sheet.)   But since according to that there are some VOCs included there is a solvent other than water--a glycol ether perhaps?   Thinned with water instead of methanol or lacquer thinner? 

1. 
   terrylee86 | Apr 04, 2008 06:12pm | #7

   Steve,

   It is not an NGR stain in the real sense of the term NGR.  It still raises the grain and it behaves just like a water stain.  Like the MSDS, the can gives you no chemistry.  It just says you can thin it with water.  It has no solvent odor at all, so it has no methanol but maybe it does contain some glycol.

   Terry

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 04, 2008 10:59pm | #8

   Makes sense.  If it has water it will raise grain.  Makes me wonder what General would have us believe is the special property that makes this worth buying. 

3. 
   bobbronner | Apr 08, 2008 01:30am | #9

   Thanks for all of the advice, guys.I'll be trying the general finishes dye stain that was mentioned. I've also heard that was a really nice product, but for this project my process is going to be a little different. Instead of tinting wipe on poly (everybody says this is a bad idea - I agree), I'm going to tint wax free shellac (bulls eye seal coat) with trans tint.So heres my process:Sand to 220
   Seal bare wood with Seal coat
   Wipe on tinted seal coat (I'm using dark vintage maple TransTint).
   Sand lightly with 400
   Wipe on Minwax's wipe on poly (high gloss) - 3 coatsI did some testing and this gave me the best results.Another thing that worked pretty well was tinting Polycrylic. General finishes makes a nice product and minwax makes a good one too. TransTint seems to be compatible with polycrylic too.Hope someone else finds this helpful.

4. 
   JamesS | Apr 08, 2008 03:46am | #10

   Bob:  By putting the color in the shellac, are you leaving yourself open to "blotching"?

   I think I would put a thin wash coat of clear shellac on B/4 I would put a colored coat on a blotch prone wood. Just my $.02

   James

   Ooops, Didn't see yor sealcoat, sorry.

   Edited 4/7/2008 8:47 pm ET by JamesS

5. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 08, 2008 07:03am | #11

   Make sure before going to the actual project that you run your tests on a large enough sample piece to really see how it works.  It's easy to avoid problem on 6"x12" scraps, get some things more the size of large door panels.  At least, use a very lightly tinted finish and sneak up on the desired color with multiple coats.  Still I think this is a technique best suited to spraying where application is easier to get even. Even in shellac, applying a tinted finish by hand is a challenge to avoid streaks, streaks that being manmade could look worse than the natural "blotches" from the maple.

   I'm not really sure why you are resisting the use of a dye to establish the basic color directly on bare wood.    Dye penetrates--it doesn't leave little speckles.  You vary the darkness by changing the concentration of the dye when you mix the powder with water.  Apply the dye liberally--really wet--I use a sponge, and wipe off standing excess with the same sponge just wrung out a bit.  That won't give you much blotching, but if it does,there are several alternative.  One is to first wet down the surface with water (distilled) and then apply the water mixed dye while the wood is still wet.  Or you can use a very light wash coat of shellac--1/2 pound cut--it should not really seal the wood.   Almost no "finesse" is needed to apply dye well--just avoid drips and runs from wet areas on to dry areas.  (Start at the bottom of vertical panels, or on the near side and work away from you on horizontal ones.--that way any drips are over still wet surfaces and you have much more time to piclk up the extra dye without any effect.    

   I'll also suggest that 3 coats of wipe on varnish is not enough.  That is about equivalent to just one coat of brush on strength varnish.  For protection go with something like 6 or more coats.