Because of hearing all the fuss about the blades here, I checked them out online and ordered their catalog. I did notice, at least on line, they do not offer 105″ blades. Seems odd. Are they available???
Don
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Replies
Don, Suffolk (Timeberwolf) will send you any size blade you need. The chart is a price chart. If there's a size not listed, find the next size up -- that's your price. Call them and tell them which size you need (or there is probably a way to do this online, I don't know. I called 'em when I needed blades).
PS: I got my blades delivered all the way to the left coast in 5 days.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/29/2002 4:03:52 PM ET by forest_girl
AHHHH, thank you.
Their prices aren't substancially greater then Delta's from Amazon, so I don't see any reason not to give the blades a try. Thanks again.
Don
Edited 8/29/2002 4:07:31 PM ET by Don C.
Anytime Don! While you're waiting for them to arrive, you might want to peruse the instructions for the "flutter test" method of tensioning blades. They indicate you need to use the procedure to get the best out of your blade (I guess this is assuming you don't have a tension meter or gauge or whatever it's called).
I've not had a chance to use mine yet, as am in the middle of a major cleaning-out project prepping for a new lumber rack. Hope you're duly impressed with the blades.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The flutter test is simple. Tension the blades as usual for the blade width as indicated on the saw's tension guage. Back off all guides. Start the machine and lower the tension slowly, a half turn at a time until the band flutters. Then SLOWLY, 1/4 turn at a time increase the tension until the blade runs without flutter. Give it 1/8 turn more and start cutting. The tension indicator will be at a MUCH lower setting than "standard."
Always de-tension blades at the end of the day. Count the number of turns to detension, then re-tension using the same number.
Use cooking spray Pam to lubricate the blade. Spray under the table for 2-3 seconds. BOTH SIDES. Let dry for 30 seconds. IT WORKS. The sound of cutting is greatly reduced after spraying. Spray again when the sound starts to increase. Lubricate the cutting tool. What a concept!
Rich
Rich -
You've given me great advice and counsel in the past so I have to ask ....
I've been told (by my Amana blade dealer) that overtensioning is *not* deterimental to a bandsaw blade. In fact, that it's preferable to put more tension on the blade than the saw's tension gauge would indicate as correct. I'm not doubting your comment for a moment, just asking your opinion since I don't have the experience or knowledge to *have* an opinion.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
I can't agree that "overtensioning is not detrimental" to a band. Overstressing any mechanical part will lead to earlier wear and eventual failure than not over stressing.
Putting excessive tension on the system will place more stress on the axles and bearings, resulting in greater wear there.
What does he mean by that statement? That eventual metal fatigue and band breaking has nothing to do with blade tension? Excessive blade tension?
Reminds me of sailing. The tighter the jib is tensioned, the better. If the luff of the jib can be tightened just a bit more, we might just get another .01 knots speed or .01 degrees closer when we're hard on the wind. What's the correct tension for the jib halyard? Answer: Whatever its tension was just before it broke! Somehow, I don't think that applies to bandsaw blades.
I think what he meant was, the tension "indicators" on most saws are notoriously low reading. When set for a particular blade width (they're all graduated in blade widths, not actual blade tension) most blades are significantly undertensioned. So, don't be hesitant about cranking up the tension until the blade performs optimally, no matter what the indicator reads. Some saws can't even get some blades up to optimal tension because the tension spring is not up to the task and the indicator is a uselessly optimistic scale.
At any rate, any improvement in blade design which allows a bandsaw to run the blade at a tension lower than traditionally expected is an advantage.
Rich
Thanks, Rich.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Your response to my posting was very disappointing to say the least. I guess when you don't like the message, you shoot the messenger!
A significant part of my training and education as a wood technologist involves calculations. As a researcher in this field (Penn State thesis, Masonite Corporation and Oregon State University) data collection and analysis was a way of life. Not surprisingly, my shopwork also involves accurate calculations and measurements.
The calculations I did for my previous response in this thread took me all of 5 minutes to complete. I have a file with various engineering information and I pulled it and my calculator, and wrote some answers on a piece of scrap paper.
For all your antagonism toward me regarding bandsaw dynamics, I completely agree with your statements regarding the strain mechanism on most small bandsaw machines.
"So, don't be hesitant about cranking up the tension until the blade performs optimally, no matter what the indicator reads. "
In my mind, these are a cheap and lousy system. Like you, I totally disregard the setting indicators. Instead of doing something like your flutter test, I simply base the amount of strain on cutting results. If the blade is not cutting straight, I increase the strain level. If the blade is acting funny (vibrating in the cut) I will either increase or decrease the strain level because I sense that I am at some harmonic. The sound of the machine as it operates (both running and in the cut) is also something I pay attention to. Somehow I think the main difference in the approach we take relative to straining -- you seemingly pre-set while I make my determination based on cutting/machine performance.
There is a concept in material theory of elastic limits -- that is you can apply a force to a material and as long as that level of force is below the elastic limit, no permanent damage will occur. If however you exceed the elastic limit, irreversible change occurs. In applying a force to any material, you can literally induce enough force so that the material will break it (referred to as the Modulus of Rupture [MOR]). When this is graphically depicted with force (load) on one axis and measured deformation on the other, the line will be straight for a period and then begin to curve until there is a sharp downward plunge of the line. In the area where the results are straight, the material is within its elastic limits. The point where the line begins to curve is the elastic limit. As more loading occurs, a curve develops until the plunge occurs -- the point where that plunge happens is the point of rupture (that is it breaks).
I suppose there are fools out there that will crank on the straining mechanism until they break a blade but most times a break occurs during sawing. In my experience, breakage occurs with overfeed or when the blade hits something hard (a knot, a nail, etc.). The explanation of this is that the combined forces of strain and cutting forces, or strain and impact loads exceed the MOR of the steel.
The trick in strain a blade is to apply enough force so that when the blade expands with heat there is enough force to keep it running true but at the same time insure that the combined cutting and straining force are below elastic limit and most certainly, the MOR.
Straining mechanisms that utilize a spring are bogus. On the large bandsaws in sawmills, they use either a hydraulic system, a pneumatic system or surprisingly, a lever arm with some big-assed weight hanging off it. Thermal linear expansion on a 60' blade can be considerable and a spring is just not up to the task. For small shop band saws machines a better strain mechanism needs to be developed.
And finally, I feel that an apology for your last comment to me might be appropriate; at the very least, I think you should recognize that I am not attacking you personally and that you should restrain (talk about a bad pun) from making further mean-spirited and vulgar responses in the future.
You are a real character, Stanley. I mean that in a completely positive way.
Hey, I've been using the Timberwolf blades for several years now and they do seem to work well. The flutter test really didn't result in enough tension when doing any resawing as I kept getting barrel cuts. I've got the 14" Delta w/riser. After a bit of frustration I ended up buying the stiffer tensioning spring from Iturra Designs and I simply tension until I get a good cut. With the new stiffer spring the factory setting for whichever blade I'm using seems to work pretty well even on the resawing. With the factory spring and a 1/2" Timberwolf blade I was not able to apply enough tension to resaw w/o barrel cuts. The new spring did wonders.
Stanley--
Knowing what is always nice. Knowing why is even nicer. Thanks for your analysis.
Someone has said, "Would you rather be right -- or happy?"
I also appreciate what you offer. Depth of knowledge is a good thing when shared so willingly.
So I am patiently reading the information you are providing about the supposed benefits of the low strain approach with Timberwolf blades.
If I read correctly what you are writing you slowly tighten the strain mechanism until the blade flutters when running and then proceed to tighten the strain mechanism another 3/8 of a turn.
I have a 14" Rockwell and for the sake of calculation purposes, I have installed the riser blocks so my blade length is 105". The threads per inch (TPI) on the strain mechanism are 16 to the inch. Thus with one complete revolution I am changing the distance of the top wheel by 0.0625". In turning it 3/8 of a turn I am moving the top wheel 0.02344". If the blade was elastic, this would mean that the blade would stretch twice that or 0.04688".
I keep my shop cool, about 55 degrees F in winter, and I will increase the heat to 60 or so for work. Suppose I set the strain first thing in the morning (following your recommendations) because I want to resaw some material to work on the rest of the day.
The thermal linear expansion co-efficient for mild steel is 0.00065 per 100 degrees F. (Obtained from a Table in a book published by the American Institute of Steel Construction) Thus if a 105" blade increases in temperature 100 degrees F, the linear thermal expansion of the blade would be 0.06825". (105" x 0.00065 = 0.06825").
The blade was fluttering and you increased the strain by turning the strain mechanism screw 3/8 of turn giving you a linear expansion tolerance of 0.04688". But a hundred degree F change in the blade will increase the blade length by 0.06825" and thus (since this is larger than the amount of strain you induced to stop blade flutter) puts you back into a situation where the blade does flutter. The reality is that the blade temperature only needs to increase by 68.7 degrees F to eliminate the added strain above the flutter point. ( [0.04688"/0.06825] x 100 = 68.7 ).
Add this to the early morning ambient temperature of 55 degrees F and at a blade temperature of 123.7 degrees F the blade begins to flutter and I lose sawing accuracy and maybe the blade starts snaking in the cut.
If I want to resaw a billet of White oak that is 10" deep and 3 feet long, I will guarantee that the blade temperature at the end of the cut will exceed 125 degrees F due to the blade rubbing against the side walls of the kerf, the rubbing forces of the teeth and the friction of cutting and sawdust movement in the gullet. A blade temperature of 125 degrees F would be warm to the touch, not hot. My experience with deep resaw cuts indicates that immediately after resawing thick dense stock, the blade is really to hot to handle.
I'm sorry Rich -- I simply do not believe that a low strain system is realistic and until I see definitive data to back up your assertions, I will continue to be a disbeliever. This is entirely based on thermal expansion and does not consider the amount of stretch (elasticity) that exists within the blade and the real change in blade length that occurs during the straining process. Maybe I miscalculated or did something else wrong. Please correct me if I am in error.
It amazes me that you can actually get through a 24 hour day, what with all the myriad calculations needed regarding the coefficient of expansion secondary to diurnal temperature changes and its effect on the mean width of certain tissue paper products and the necessary adjustment in wiping force when applied to certain areas of your anatomy where the sun never shines.
Get a LIFE!
Sorry everyone, else.
Edited 8/30/2002 2:31:29 AM ET by Rich Rose
Jeez,
I thought Stanley's contribution was a pretty straight forward, well thought out, polite response. Followed by a fairly nasty, non-thought out reponse on your part.
Scott
Edited 8/30/2002 9:31:43 AM ET by the rev
One, how the heck can I reply to "All" rather than to a specific person?
Two, I also thought Stanley's response was very interesting. Probably a bit over the top in practical terms, but very interesting at least on an academic level and therefore worthwhile.
Three, Rich's "flutter" method has always worked perfectly for me, notwithstanding what appear to be very cogent reasons why it shouldn't. Maybe this is like bumblebees - the science says they shouldn't be able to fly, but they do.
In the message composition window, there are a From: and a To: in the upper left corner. The To: is a drop down menu, and ALL is the second choice on the menu. The button that says Others pops up a dialog box so you can enter a name that doesn't appear in the menu. It either doesn't work or requires you to enter a user's registered login name instead of whatever nickname he posts under.
My message composition window (the window I am composing in right now) doesn't have drop-down menus of the kind you describe. In the upper left hand corner it says From: MarkRoderick and To: Uncle Dunc. No other choices.
So I see. I hadn't realized the menu is only available if you're using the Advanced View. In the message reading screen, near the bottom of the right frame, there is an Advanced View link next to the Previous Message button. The advanced view gives you more bells and whistles, like the drop down menu for addressee, but it also gives you more to keep track of. It can't hurt to try it, and if you don't like it, it's easy to switch back.
Got it. Thanks. Although I wouldn't have guessed the Prospero screen could get any busier, it appears I once again underestimated the inventiveness of software developers and overestimated their understanding of the practical world.
C'mon Rich. Niemiec is who he is, and you are who you are. If you don't like his posts, why not choose the "Ignore" option and you won't ever the 'em again, unless you change your mind. You have a choice. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yeah,
I won't waste any more time with his ridiculous pseudo-science and irrelevant rantings.
If he had said, "Well, look. I've used the blades and my experiences are different from yours, and I haven't gotten good results from them, and I've been curious why, and I've tried to find the answer in these calculations. Well OK. That's perfectly fine. And I would have been delighted to help figure out why his experience and mine were different.
But from the beginning he has said that I can not have had the experiences that I've described and that his calculations are proof that my experiences haven't happened. That's about as insulting as it gets. He refuses to try the blades because his "calculations" prove that they don't work and that it would be economically harmful to him to buy one.
I shall just ignore him in the future.
Rich
Great response !!
Thank you all for your positive and supportive comments. I feel that I have been extremely lucky to have had the opportunities to learn as I have -- I share this knowledge so that, hopefully, others will attain a better understanding of wood and wood processing so that they can work more accurately, efficiently and creatively.
As far as I am concerned the best woodworking tool available to us is our minds.
Stanley, I am wondering if you have a further bit of information re:tensioning at your fingertips.
I acquired a clamp-to-blade tension meter mfg'd by American Saw and distributed by Lenox that is calbirated in PSI from 0 to 50,000. Information from the packaging suggests most band saws should be tensioned to 25 - 30,000 PSI. I am unsure if they are refering to metal or wood sawblades, or if this number is even reasonable. I would like to find out what appropriate tension settings are, and how they would vary by blade size.
Any help you could provide would be much appreciated.
I think what you are referring to is something that sawfilers in the primary mills call a strain gauge. Then again what they may be using is something that measures the stretch/elongation of the blade when the blade is strained. I would have to both find and refer to my notes of a study I did at one mill to refresh my memories about those numbers. And at that, the numbers I have are likely irrelevant because we were measuring a 14" wide, 60+' band.
I would recommend you obtain some information from the bandsaw manufacturer regarding the tensile strength of the blade metal. As I stated earlier, the ideal situation would exist when the combined strain and cutting/impact forces are within the elastic limits of the metal.
I know Rich is thoroughly teed off at me but I have to agree that he is correct in the sense that excessive strain is harder on bearings, etc. so there is no reason to over strain (ie to the limit of the blade).
You have a great tool to use but I think you will have to do some testing to determine optimum strain for each blade width. However once done, you will have an absolutely accurate means to reset the machine. You might start at the flutter point (in Rich's procedure) and take a measurement. I don't know where this would be with regard to the blade's elastic limit but you could certainly increase strain by several increments and test performance. I would think that (excluding some harmonic points) there will be a strain level above which sawing accuracy does not improve. To me this would be the optimum strain level (assuming, of course, it, with cutting forces, are below blade break point).
I consider bandsaw blades to be very reasonably priced (almost cheap) in comparison to the amount and value of the wood sawn by a given blade. In the long run, a blade that cuts accurately and smoothly (due to "proper" geometry and set-up) is many times more valuable than an inaccurate, rough cutting one. It can save wood, labor and time and these combined issues mandate, in my opinion, additional study/published research and improved add-ons/components for small shop bandsaw machines. Needless to say, the first step ought to be improved straining mechanisms and procedures.
Edited 9/4/2002 3:34:47 PM ET by NIEMIEC1
"You might start at the flutter point (in Rich's procedure) and take a measurement. "
For the record, the procedure is not mine. It is straight out of the Timberwolf blade instruction sheet.
Rich
Thanks for the thoughts. This device measures blade elongation with no reference to blade cross sectional area so the PSI scale is a little moot unless there is a standard blade it is meant to be used on. As you suggested, I thought it would be a useful tool for resetting blade tension adjustment consistently and so am looking for any info before I try to calibrate it to the blades I'll use it on. So far, what it calls 15,000 PSI seems to work on a 1/4" blade.
Timberwolf bandsaw blades are the best, in my humble opinion.
I have never been particularly successful with TImberwolf's tensioning approach. My Delta always seems to have a slight periodic flutter as I tension it. I just set mine according the scale on the saw (right or wrong) and it seems to wok fine.
That said, I do think the TImberwolf is a better cutting blade than I have used before.
Klingspor's Woodworking Shop in the Carolinas sells these blade and stock 105 in. blades. Their price is $8 - $10 (approx. $18) less than other places, at least partly because they don't come in the bubble packs.
BSUTTON12:
Do you have the ph# for Klingspor's? If not what city are they in? I can get their area code from the city and call LD info for ph#. Also, do they stock all TW's or just the re-saws?
Any help would be appreciated. I was going to order Tues. from Suffolk.
Thanks in advance if you can supply more info, have a great holiday week-end!
sarge..jt
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