All & Sysop: I now know what the next folder should be on Knots: Grizzly v. Anti-Grizzily! Whaddayathink?
Duke
Kenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Replies
Or Interminable Whining vs. Not
Or "Is Life Fair or Unfair?"
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
forestgirl,
It's very interesting that you and other Grizzly supporters have become disrespectful and insulting to me personally. In all my messages about Grizzly, I have never once insulted you or the other Grizzly supporters. Quite the opposite, I have often thanked you for your input, even when you disagree with me.Why is it that my criticism of a company leads to personal insults from people with no vested interest in that company?
"It's very interesting that you and other Grizzly supporters have become disrespectful and insulting to me personally. " Matthew, it wouldn't matter which company made that tool, you'd still be getting the same message from us. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's a Grizzly tool. Your making that statement clearly shows you are not getting the message. And if you hven't gotten it by now, you probably never will, so I'm probably going to curtsy and leave very soon.
"What "homework" should I have done before my purchase?" Given your feelings about their return policy, and your apparent inability to negotiate an exception to said policy, I'd say you should have researched that very, very thoroughly.
"Why is it that my criticism of a company leads to personal insults " First of all, I'm not seeing anything that amounts to a true insult. But that aside, it's not your criticism that's getting you a bunch of flack. It's your inability to just let the thing go and get on with your life.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 10/17/2005 1:36 pm by forestgirl
forestgirl,
OK, this is getting surreal.So it's not Grizzly's fault for having an unfriendly return policy. No, it's my fault for not being able to negotiate an exception to the policy when one of their machines is defective. The responsibility for a defective machine is not on the maufacturer, but the customer! Hey, manufacturers can sell you a pile of scrap metal and call it a drill press, and if you don't read their return policy, well, that's your fault buddy!
Edited 10/17/2005 3:13 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Dear Matthew,
Your qualification as a Mensa member seems not to make any difference in your ability to read and remember correctly what people write and interpret what they're saying. I'm done with this conversation, because you persist in mis-summarizing what I and others have said, and you seem completely incapable of understanding the central message that most of us are trying to send (not saying that you must agree -- you don't even see it. And no, I'm not going to repeat it for the 3rd or 4th time. BTW, it has nothing to do with Grizzly or any other business.)
Sign me "not a Mensa member, but smart nevertheless"forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
forestgirl,
Strange how this discussion has caused Grizzly fans to get nasty and personal. For the record, all of my negative comments have been aimed at the company. I've thanked both you and Bill for your input, and never insulted you.
Glad you noticed FGs post about L-N. I pointed out in another thread the lunacy of suggesting that one would have to lay hands on an L-N plane before purchasing but it was A-OK to buy Grizzly, of all damned things, sight unseen save for a picture in a catalog.
charles,
My main argument in this whole Grizzly confusion is that there are inherent risks in buying large and/or expensive tools through mail order. The better the return policy, the lower the risk. I'm more likely now to buy mail order from a company that does not charge shipping, takes care of possible return shipping, and does not charge a "re-stocking fee" if a tool is returned for a refund. Of course, you still have the frustration of dealing with the return, but at least you are not out dollars as well as hours.All I have ever tried to do is show what COULD happen to you if you are one of the unlucky ones, as I was with my drill press, and to weigh that along with the price of the tool.I pointed out Forestgirl's L-N message only to show that she and I agree on this point. She was talking about hand planes, and I was talking about Grizzly, but the point is the same. I mean this sincerely.
Forestgirl,
Here's one of your posts, which is interesting in light of the current discussion. You were writing about buying Lie-Nielson hand planes through a catalog:"So, in this day and age, where else is he going to go to actually lay his hands on a specific line of hand-planes that he's interested in using? Certainly not his local Ace Hardware. Is he supposed to simply order the plane, for however many hundreds of dollars, and hope it's of the expected high quality."Sounds like we agree more than we disagree!
Edited 10/17/2005 4:43 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
<"So, in this day and age, where else is he going to go to actually lay his hands on a specific line of hand-planes that he's interested in using? Certainly not his local Ace Hardware. Is he supposed to simply order the plane, for however many hundreds of dollars, and hope it's of the expected high quality.">Careful you guys, Mr Ace himself reads this stuff too. Lets not get a True Value vs Ace debate going. ;-)aloha, mike
forestgirl,
You wrote that you did not get personal. In a quick scan of your messages to me, I found the following examples. There are lots of others, but this makes the point:--"Interminable Whining" - 10/16"Your apparent inability to negotiate an exception to said policy," - 10/17"...Your ability to read and remember correctly what people write and interpret what they're saying." - 10/17"You seem completely incapable of understanding the central message that most of us are trying to send," - 10/17"You're simply wallowing in your own misery and refusing to get on with your life." - 10/17"There's quite a difference between "sharing information" and this weird campaign you're on." - 10/17"I was...hoping against hope that you'd get some perspective on the whole thing" - 10/17---There are some by Bill as well, but he, unlike you, did not deny getting personal.By contrast, I've responded to each of your messages, including the ones above, by trying to find agreement with you and showing that I am in fact considering your point of view. The record speaks for itself.
Edited 10/18/2005 9:57 am ET by MatthewSchenker
fer cryin' out loud Matt......dont be so sensitive. Its just a message board.......he didnt call you an a-hole or anything. Have a martini, sit down and relax. For all his faults ( he wears thiongs on the beach.and he is like.......OLD!) Bill is an OK guy.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
cherryjohn,
It's ironic that I'm the one labeled as sensitive!I tried to keep the discussion focused on tools and company policies, and I even thanked the people who were hounding me personally and took their advice. I don't think there's a good reason in a tool forum to get personal. It's tempting when someone attacks you, but even then we should try to remember the whole point of the discussion.Seems there are a few people here who very quickly cross that line.
Edited 10/18/2005 2:13 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
To Grizz or not to Grizz? That IS the question!
"To Grizz or not to Grizz? That IS the question!"
...but then we'd have to have a "To PC or not to PC" Forum and a "To Festool or not to Festool" Forum.
Like Jamie said, maybe the best is just a "Whiner" Forum. Those who choose not to do their homework before making a purchase are the most likely to be whining about it afterward. I trust the judgement and experience of folks on the Forum like Jamie who have had first-hand experience with tools to lead me in the right direction. I've bought Grizzly, PC, Jet and many other brands. I'm most displeased with PC because I trusted the brand and have been disappointed, but I'm not going to whine about it because it was my choice.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I agree. Also, no matter the brand or where made, there will always, it seems, be occasinal item that gets shipped and is a lemon. It is what happens after the fact that counts - both the companys customer service and how you deal with them. i have worked in customer service and I will state that if you come on from the start with abusive language and threats, you arte going to get the minimal amount of help they can get away with. Some companies have penalties if the service agent is giving too much away and as a result, with those, you have to be firm (not abusive) and may have to ask for a supervisor and possibly even a manager to get results.
Note: when calling, make sure you note the date and time you called and get the name of the peron(s) you spoke with.
Also, the people on the other end of the line are decent people and really want to help in 99.9% of the cases and will work with you harder if you show them some respect and a willingness to work with them.
As a final note on customer support, if you have a very positive experience with them, ask to speak to a supervisor and give that person a compliment. On the flip side, if the agent was disrespectful, rude or hangs up on you, talk to a supervisor and express that as well. They want to know which agents are doing good work and which ones need some coaching and watching. Remember, you are the customer and they make their money off of you and want you to be happy.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Bill,
I assume your insults were directed at me.Could you explain what you mean by this statement:
"Those who choose not to do their homework before making a purchase are the most likely to be whining about it afterward."What "homework" should I have done before my purchase?
My comment was intended to be generic. If any one of us fails to do our homework before placing an order or walking into a store and making a purchase, we deserve what we get. Homework involves not only determining what we feel is the best tool to do the job, but the reputation of the vendor to stand behind the item they sell us.
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill,
I am not stupid (I'm also a Mensa member, by the way, even though I don't include it in my signature). So even if your last message was "generic," it was still directed at me (as well as others).I just want to make sure I understand your logic here. My homework should have included the knowledge that Grizzly is not a reputable vendor?Let's follow that...Where would I get such knowledge? Perhaps from tool reviews? Maybe even ones here on Knots. And how would those useful tool reviews come to exist, so that someone like me could "do his homework" and know which brand to stay away from?Might they come to exist by the efforts of someone like myself writing about his experiences with the tools? But you and some others say I am wasting my time on such reviews.Let's get this straight. You want me to do my homework by reading reviews that you say someone should not write?
Edited 10/17/2005 3:15 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
"I am not stupid (I'm also a Mensa member, by the way, even though I don't include it in my signature)."
Nobody has said or implied that you're stupid. I don't have a list of the alphabet following my name, so I opted to become a Mensan to indicate I have something on the ball (although the ball is getting more corners knocked off of it as the years go by. If my signature offends you, you can turn off signatures in your profile.
"So even if your last message was "generic," it was still directed at me (as well as others)."
Yeah, let's see now -- summarizing your comment -- my message was directed at someone (you, others, whatever). It ain't a message if it don't go to someone, huh?
"I just want to make sure I understand your logic here. My homework should have included the knowledge that Grizzly is not a reputable vendor?"
Well, I did my homework and determined that Grizzly IS a reputable vendor.
"Let's follow that..."
Lead, follow or get out of the way!
"Where would I get such knowledge? Perhaps from tool reviews? Maybe even ones here on Knots. And how would those useful tool reviews come to exist, so that someone like me could "do his homework" and know which brand to stay away from?
Might they come to exist by the efforts of someone like myself writing about his experiences with the tools? But you and some others say I am wasting my time on such reviews."
Hmmm....seems like this has been covered already. I trust the input from folks (well, most folks) on Forums such as this. To put it in plain language, I ask about a specific type of product when I think I'm ready for it and then about a specific brand when I think that's the one for me.
Tool reviews? I don't waste too much time on them. Many times, the review is done a year ahead of publication and new models are available. Obvious exclusion of some brands or models from reviews negates their value.
"Let's get this straight. You want me to do my homework by reading reviews that you say someone should not write?"
People can write reviews all they want -- doesn't mean I'll take them with anything other than a grain of salt. Unfortunately, there is a vast audience that will take what some magazine says as gospel rather than expanding their research to include us front-line folks.
OK -- now let's go make some more sawdust!
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill,
By "reviews," I mean user comments here on Knots and other woodworking forums. Like you, I'm skeptical of magazine tool reviews. I even alluded to this here on Knots, in my very favorable review of the Ridgid TS2400 benchtop table saw. I trust comments by fellow woodworkers a lot more than magazines in this field. Which is exactly why I wrote what I wrote about Grizzly.I am passionate about sharing experiences about woodworking tools. If you look back through my history on this board, you'll see that I always put a tremendous amount of thought into writing extensively about tools I have used, especially when I can be of help to other woodworkers. I believe my actions speak for themselves here.Other people's "reviews" have been tremendously helpful to me, and I think it's important for us to add our experiences if there is to be a substantial, and trustworthy, archive of information about tools.I still don't understand what you mean by telling me I should have "done my homework." You said you did the homework and determined that Grizzly is reputable. Well, so did I. How would "doing my homework" have avoided my problem?Your signature doesn't bother me at all.
Edited 10/17/2005 4:15 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
"I still don't understand what you mean by telling me I should have "done my homework." You said you did the homework and determined that Grizzly is reputable. Well, so did I. How would "doing my homework" have avoided my problem?"
If you did your homework, determined you were satisfied with making a purchase from Grizzly and followed through on it, those were only the first steps. Not having been by your side when you unpacked your drill press, I can't speak for what might have transpired at that point.
When I receive something, be it a small package or a larger item, the first thing I grab is my camera, then a knife. If there is any sign of damage or even a bump, I start taking pictures. As I open the box, I take pictures. As I remove packing material....well, you see where I'm going. If there is any sign of an issue with a shipment, I document it immediately and fire off an e-mail to Customer Service at the vendor. By having all the photos as I unpack something, it's hard for a vendor to point the finger back at me.
Last year, I received an item costing about $380. Externally, there was no sign of damage. As I opened the box, it appeared there was some shifting of the contents, but no major issue. As I continued to unpack the box and setup the equipment, I noticed a ding on the end of the motor that appeared to be only cosmetic. I documented it, sent the photos to the vendor and they issued a 20% refund on my credit card immediately. I have had no problem with the equipment and haven't even bothered to touchup the 3/8" scratch with flat black paint.
By documenting issues and putting a machine through it's paces as soon as it's received, I also have recourse through my credit card company. If I'm dissatisfied, the card company can certainly add some pressure by refusing to pay the vendor.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill,
Now we're possibly getting somewhere.Yes, I did the background and decided I would go with Grizzly for my drill press.When I found damage, I didn't take photos of the damage, but I'm sure this is not necessarily considered a failure on my part. I did contact Grizzly customer service. Unlike the other vendor you mentioned, I got no offers of a discount, or any option but to pay for return shipping of the machine or to return it, pay shipping back, plus the original shipping, plus a 10% "re-stocking fee."Except for taking a photo, I did all the things you included in "doing my homework."Can't you see this is an example of a poor return policy, and a company not doing its best to stand behind their product?
Here's the link to Grizzly's shipping and return policies: http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2005/main/563.aspx
They don't hide their policies.
Again, the next step is the credit card company.
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
OK, children, I've had enough of your bickering. Go to your rooms for at least an hour and calm down. If you can't stop this argument, NO desert for any of you tonight. SawdustSteve
Billy, is that Mensa Member or is it Mens A Menber??Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Are you talking about whining or did you mean winning? Sorry, I couldn't resist. Just always trying to be positive.
I thought the next folder was going to be about jigs and stuff? I guess doing product research does come in handy. But you can read all you want, I am noticing some tools being made a little "cheaper". I try to get hands on before I buy.
Joe
Is it really saw dust or wood dust?
it is saw dust when i comes out of the saw, and it is wood dust all the time and all over my house. I guess is should not have bought that cheap dust collector. but that would be wineing if i told you which one
David
Gee I have the small JET one.. Dust blows out of the top bag at the clamp.. Geeeee. Would DUCK tape work?
<Geeeee. Would DUCK tape work?>quack, sure would........one of my favorite animals-baby ducks.....(This thread needs hijacking!)aloha, mike
or: Do you prefer Taiwanese to Chinese?
aloha, mike
Mike: Sure do! Also, speaking strictly machinery wise, not politically, an ISO 2001 (#?) factory is preferable. I had one Grizzly tool, a 14'' bandsaw that I sold off because it was not up to my standards. I spent my working life with heavy duty industrial machinery and even though my woodworking needs are not that high I'm just used to good quality machines. Ended up with a Laguna 18''. DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
<Ended up with a Laguna 18''>You could do way worse ;-)........I have one meself and just resawed 250 bd ft of cherry to bend into handrails. That machine (with Timberwolf blades) is killer...... Who cares where its made-mine is the older version (Meber) made in Italy. They are made by another mfg now. Still awesome as well. aloha, mike
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