Just in, NYW has been canceled after this season. No more Norm, except on the This Old House shows. No more woodshop from Norm and company. Comments?
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Replies
Whitedog,
Without getting long and deep about it, Norm probably had more impact on woodworking in general than any woodworker of this current and last century. One might bring up the whole range of styles (Danish, A&C, Shaker etc) of master practitioners in their fields and it's not arguable that their craftsmanship was superior to Norm's. Of course it was, but none had the raw impact for good or poor that NYW had on the masses. An absolutely none had the impact to manufacturers of power tool equipment.
His show and methods were not the worst things to emulate for those woodworkers just starting out. Without such as Norm Abrams or Bob Vila, large tool companies wouldn't be the size they are now and the huge box stores dedicated to DYI would probably not come along at near the speed they did.
I enjoyed Norm,
It is the end of a time.
Boiler
bbI think your analysis is spot on. Norm is more responsible than any other woodworker in the last 50 years or more to keep the woodworking flag flying, at least in the U.S.A.. Without all the weekend warriors buying woodworking tools, 2/3's of the tool companies that exist today would not have market to sell too, and certainly not at the current pricing structure. That would leave the professional woodworking shops to foot the bill for much more expensive tablesaws, bandsaws, jointers, planers, routers, and the list goes on and on.....I would say that next to my grandfather's memory, Norm is most responsible for my interest in woodworking. I didn't have a mentor like Maloof, Frid, or Klausz. I didn't even know who those guys were 25 years ago, but I sure knew who Norm was.Hopefully, someone will start a new series of shows to be aired on DIY , or the like, and peak some woodworking interest in the next generation. At the very least, to keep the woodworking hobby in the hearts and minds of those not privaliged enough to seek a proper apprenticeship.Jeff
Yup and yup to bolier too. Couldn't have said it better.
I watch a lot of HGTV and DIY for ideas. A lot of the programs have good ideas but the level of craftsmanship is just slightly above framing.
Yeah I know, I'll prolly get flamed for that but, as you know, there's a big difference between furniture making and framing a wall, and I've done my fair share of framing, still do. Takes a different craftsmanship to do framing in a 100 year old house methinks.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
On the weekends in the country I used to turn on the TV to HGTV in the kitchen when I came downstairs and it usually stayed on all day. Used to. The decorating shows the now broadcast are really less then useful.
ASK
That makes me very sad. My very first exposure to woodworking was New Yankee. With David Marks' show no longer in production, there is nothing left to watch. I can't stand the new shows with idiots yelling at us.
I definitely agree with photonut on this. For some reason, those DIY, HGTV, and to a lesser extent PBS seem to equate home improvement as woodworking. Perhaps with the demise of woodworking shops in our schools, this is just a matter of us (collectively speaking) reaping what we have sewn.
Steve
Sewn?
The Router Workshop went off broadcast several years ago but they continue to market their products. NYW still has a lot to offer so hopefully they will keep selling their products.
Seems that a lot of the DIY shows slowly died the past 3 years or so.
Don
I remember reading an article about NYW and Abram made it clear that he had no intentions of doing the show forever. Considering he was building at least two of everything, it probably got old and he's been doing it for 20 years. I'd say he's earned a break. I don't enjoy the show as much as I once did, but I'm a woodworker because of Norm. Tom
This news really saddens me. I am a huge Norm fan and was exposed to woodworking thru him, and the New Yankee Workshop.
I am interested to hear the source of this information so I can read more for myself.
I have learned alot from norm and patterned many of my techniques like his. I liked his practical approach. I will miss the New Yankee.
Ok, while reeling from the news I searched other media websites looking for more info. Ha didn't even thing to go to the FWW homepage. Thats how upset i am!!! This is gonna hurt.
Webby
Edited 10/17/2009 8:48 pm ET by webby
I t have learned a lot from Norm. Cross grain when explained Dahh.
Well PBS did a great service to all and I appreciate that. My Daughters would snuggle up and be quiet during TOH and NYW. sort of quality daddy time.They now point out Carp work. yet don't do any WW. Shows how a little bit of knowledge can seep into their I pod brains.Yup he did a good job and Thank you Norm and PBS. Many hours of knowledge and entertainment. "Tomorrow we will assemble the ......................" The project I am working on.Thanks to All his production staff, producers et al.But one burning question????? does he have his base boards installed?Next show Mrs . Norm What he didn't do around this House?Shoe
Norm and I are the same age, can't say that I blame him for opting for retirement. Great gig if you can get it!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another long-time Norm fan here, but I think he's been around closer to 30 years. I'm sure that I discovered NYW in the late 70's.I can remember watching NYW years ago and thinking "So, THAT'S how to do that!" For the past several years, however, it's more like "That's cool, Norm, but I do it this way."Here's to plaid flannel shirts and the most popular Jewish carpenter in 2000 years!! - lol
21 seasons total, created in 1989. This Old House first aired in 1979.
Yea, I remember as a kid watching that stuff and then taking a hammer to things around the house.
Now that I'm married and have kids of my own I try and incourage them not to breake to many things. My mother still wants me to come back and fix some things (now that she sees I don't exclusivly break things anymore!
Chaim :-O
Dave
He has been around about that long. I remember when Norm was doing what Tommy Silva is doing now on TOH. It must be 20 years ago he was doing timberframe stuff with Ted Benson in Alstead. I liked when Norm came on and Bob V moved on and took Sears with him. Norm has done well for himself and others. I bet he's satisfied with most of his work and wishes he did somethings another way as he looks back.
Sound like some others???
dan
Ted Benson did a timberframe addition to Norm's house...
Yeah, I remember watching TOH when Bob Vila was host and Norm was pretty much a walk-on. I could have sworn, however, that I was watching NYW in the late 70's or early 80's.I completely understand the feeling that things would be done better today. I've made quite a bit of stuff for my kids over the years and they sometimes don't understand when I have no problem with them getting rid of it. They see heirlooms and I see embarrassment - lol
I wonder if PBS will keep airing older shows after this year. I hope so. As evidenced by this thread, he's responsible for bringing many people to the woodworking table. Sure, there are shortcomings (finishing wasn't his strong suit, eh?) but all in all, he made significant contributions.
I built his router table and a variation of his mailbox. I never built his furniture, just not my style, but I always enjoyed his show. I still have some plans for other of his non furniture projects which I will one day get around to making. He seemed like a nice guy and explained things well, that was a great help to me several years ago.
Someone new needs to step up.
Jim
Let us not forget his little book
http://www.amazon.com/Measure-Twice-Cut-Once-Carpenter/dp/0316004944/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255838700&sr=1-1
Who ever stole Norm's stainless handsaw otta been hung by his suspenders !
During his shows I enjoyed his trips to all the many places of special interest like the Estate of the collector who has the H.O. Studley wall mounted tool panel and the Winterther/Dupont house between New York and Washington DC. Full of truly great world class furniture. ! I wouldn't even know about Winterther if it wasn't for Norm.
I have watched most all of his shows and ( don't tell anyone ) recorded a few to rewatch now and again.
No . . . more . . . Norm's New Yankee Workshop . . . ? I knew we were firmly entrenched in the modern version of the dark ages but this must be the zenith ( or the antizinith if you will ) .
What next ? A return to leeches ?
woe is me.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 10/18/2009 12:29 am by roc
This is sad. Like a lot of others, he was an important part of my woodworking life. I loved his shows. Although the season focused on a kitchen cabinet restoration was a dissapointment and this years rerruns of other shows were the same. He IMO helped launch the hobbyist tool market. I've built a couple of his projects. The plans he provides are top notch. I hope he decides to keep going and moves into the internet age and does podcasts. I'll pay to keep watching. Oh, well I guess now there's room for another dumb arse reality show somehwere. I use to love the DIY channel but all those shows are gone.
I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.
George Burns
Do you have a link to the announcement? I checked the WGBH website and the New Yankee site and find nothing about the cancellation.
Thanks,
Ron
They issued a press release just the other day. Wood magazine has a write-up, click here.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/18/2009 10:51 am by forestgirl
Apparently, the news came out this past Friday. There's a mention of the cancellation in one of the editor's blogs on the home page here:https://www.finewoodworking.com/item/20355/new-yankee-workshop-series-ends
You sure?
The Spokane station is running some of his kitchen series into November, Boston has the same series on for October
Maybe some clarification is in order.
Don
Don, see the link in the post above.I couldn't find the press release from WGBH, which produced the show, but PBS will likely play re-runs for years, even though new episodes have been canceled.Next thing we know, Roy will change his last name to Overthehill, and retire from TV, too. ;-)
Rakph,
Good one! I can tell you one thing, he hasn't slowed down one iota.
At the beginning of his lecture he lugged a carpenters chest (read BIG), with a hefty bunch of tools in it, when I saw him at WIA. 'Cept for a bit more gray hair you'd have sworn you were in the audience of one of his old shows.
Then he set it on the first table and said, "Now pass this around so everyone can get a close look at 150 year old dovetails". And it just got better from there.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I was inspired to take a stab at building chairs after watching Norm build a child's rocking chair. He made it look easy, so I built two. The children have long gotten too big to sit in them now, but I can still remember how much fun it was to build them.
Maybe Forest Girl can be Norm's successor.
I will miss Norm as well have many tapes of his shows l liked the way he explained things in detail.
He inspired me as he did many hundreds to get into woodworking thanks norm.
Jim from Ontario, Canada
Think there will be a clearance sale on equipment at his shop?
No yard sale I'm afraid. The shop does not belong to Norm. I think it belongs to R. Morash as I understand it.
Now that Norm is retiring, I'll have to retire my brad gun and screw gun. He's never shown the style of Sam Maloof or George Nakishimia (sp?), but he DID get lots of people interested in woodworking. Yes, he may have gotten tired of the year in - year out grind to produce all those projects, but I suspect the real reason he couldn't compete any more is that he isn't a 'stud-stud'. Look at most of those 'chippendale dancers' turned handymen, swinging a hammer. No skill, but they look good on TV. Or... those gals on home renovation shows AND the cooking shows who show more cleavage than original ideas.
As one of my buddies said to me ... 'You've got a face for radio.'
SawdustSteve
<<but I suspect the real reason he couldn't compete any more is that he isn't a 'stud-stud'.>>Oooo, sounds like sour grapes to me.Ta ta...
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Sour grapes.... No. For the longest time, my motto has been....
'I used to skinny-dip. Now I chunky-dunk'My doctor told me I had to get in shape. ROUND IS A SHAPE.
SawdustSteve
<<ROUND IS A SHAPE>>Obviously you have seen a picture of me. :-)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Won't be missing the show in the least bit. IMHO I think the show really cheapened the craft and gave the masses a sort of false sense of what fine woodworking really is. It may have inspired people to get into the craft but beyond that I think it did very little to inspire original design or get people to explore outside the box.
I' hope he concentrates his efforts on This Old House where I thought he was a better carpenter than woodworker.
ted,
Amen brother. Amen
Ray
I was wondering when Norm bashers were going to come around.Oh well..
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Guess you didn't have to wait too long.
I hope I don't disappoint...Norm became a cartoon of a woodworker and in the process made mediocrity acceptable and accessible to millions. This is not Norm as a person, but as a trademark, you understand. As a creation of the mass marketers, his job was to sell tools and the entire lifestyle to a willing public that would not have otherwise entered the field, much less 'tuned in.' One might even go so far as to draw a line from the 'show' (it was theater - make-believe. You remember that, don't you?) to the demise of the original Fine Woodworking magazine and encouraged a hobby full of mediocrity. To mourn the passing of the show is akin to worrying about whether Mickey will ever marry Minnie Mouse. You know - the poor guy could not go out in public without a flannel shirt - contractual restrictions. Perhaps he can now wear his own clothes when and where he wants. Or he may just continue the illusion, much as many TV personalities have confused their reality with the fantasy created by others. Hopefully, the loss of the show will not restrict the free flow of folksy, witty and tedious banter on this forum, nor slow the numerous postings from the advance guard (when do you people cut wood?). The venom can still flow for those with a differing view from the self-appointed mainstream.But that is just one person's opinion.
Thanks for the edumacation. I didn't know all dem tings.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Norm a "cartoon" is it now? Hmm. Norm was a VERY good carpenter, who happened to be able to explain things to a camera as he worked ( try THAT sometime) and still was able to get a job done. The NYW come out of all those trips Norm and Bob V. made to the OLD NYW that was in Norm's garage. The "public" wanted to see more of this shop and WHAT could be made there. Russel Morash had a "set" built on his property for the NYW to be filmed in. The shows were intended as "beginner level" instruction for those out there who WANTED to learn HOW to make things out of wood. It was never intended to be on the level of " fine furniture making", just those of us who wanted to learn. A LOT has been made about all the tools Norm has, now, IF you had a sponsor that supplied every tool YOU needed for YOUR work, would you say no? I suspect that IF Norm had just a "basic" set of tools in the shop, he could still get the same results. Sure, the show was only a half hour long and still got the project finished. THAT was the "hollywood" part. What you didn't see was all the work (sometimes two weeks worth) that went into making that project to start with. All the show actually showed was HOW to do each "step" of that project. Whether a project is a simple little table, or a "fine woodworking highboy", it all boils down to the steps in takes to get from a "pile of wood" to a finished project. As for those plaid shirts, Norm started out in those on TOH, and kept them as just work shirts. I have seen him on TOH in just plain T-shirts (hot weather, hotter work) so it wasn't a "contract" sort of thing. Although I suppose some "purists of fine woodworking" show up in a suit and tie for work, just to say they ain't Norm. The New Yankee Workshop was just "shop class" for adults who WANTED to learn to make a few things out of wood.
" Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"
Hi'
You definitely said it best.
IOW my sentiments exactly.
Vasco
I have been reading this thread and shaking my head. I'll probably get some flack, so be it, but I like Norm.
I just wonder where all of the super talented, very professional, Fine Wood Working, people came from? You know, the place where these fine craftsman were born with all their skills.
Now me, I definitely was not born with all the skills, such as they are, that I have today; I had to start at the bottom and learn, the hard way, how to do the best quality work.
Now, if we did not have someone, Norm maybe?, that inspired us to believe that building furniture was an attainable skill, most of us would probably still think that it was too hard or difficult to even think about. I think that Norm has inspired many to believe that woodworking was an attainable skill, and that every generation that has watched the shows for the past 20+ years has learned that with encouragement and hard work that they too can build furniture. Some of those people may have taken the skills that Norm demonstrated and built upon them to be Fine Woodworkers. Because we do not stay at the level that Norm demonstrates does not mean that he is not a valuable inspiration to the aspiring woodworker.
I have never heard Norm call himself a "Fine Woodworker", he just just builds projects in his workshop and show you that you can do it too. The TOH people call Norm a "Master Carpenter" but I have never heard Norm say that. He has made a good living at what he does and that is what all of us strive to do.
Give Norm the credit for what he has accomplished.
Thanks Norm!!
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
I agree
I enjoyed the visits to the museum's, Old Sturbrige Village, Antique shops. I new would have had the exposure to such places. Always entertaining when he went to a archy salvage shop!Remember It was the new Yankee workshop. not the Upper class/ Blue Blood workshop!Everyone started some were, or are we blessed by those who are warm from the womb, who would lay there hands on a stack of wood and it would assemble itself. with never getting a sliver or a nick with a blade, let alone cut to the wrong side of the line. Plaid hides glue and coffee stains.
"One might even go so far as to draw a line from the 'show' (it was theater - make-believe. You remember that, don't you?) to the demise of the original Fine Woodworking magazine and encouraged a hobby full of mediocrity."Sadly, I think you may be onto something.
So by that logic if you are not Tiger Woods then you should just stay off of the golf course?<!----><!----><!---->
I’m no fan of the “new” FWW at all but I believe Norm made a lot of things available to the average hobbyist that would have never happened otherwise. Or would you prefer only a few choices in table saws like it was in 1980? <!----><!---->
I don't think your golf analogy works. When was woodworking machinery not available to nonprofessionals?Please explain the early success of Fine Woodworking magazine pre-Norm, pre-15 different brands of tablesaws all made in Taiwan, and all these other supposed boons to the craft.I frankly think there will always be people for whom building things is akin to breathing. I doubt they need to watch television for inspiration.
Edited 10/20/2009 2:46 pm ET by Marsupial
As a subscriber from issue #1 (although not any more…) I can easily answer that, it was the ONLY GAME IN TOWN. In fact FWW preceded Norm in promoting the hobbyist, offering a place for tool makers to market their offerings and a venue to explore new ones and expanding knowledge in the field. Their advertising space allowed a lot of now established names a place to start.<!----><!----><!---->
Low cost tools were not the rule in 1978 and that prevented a lot of folks from getting involved, the NYW helped that expansion along. A lot of people got started with Norm and moved on to bigger and better projects and some stayed at the beginner level, so what? They are all good for the craft. They are not “supposed” boons, they are real. You didn’t fill out your profile so I have no idea how old you are but anyone who remembers 25 years ago knows what I’m talking about.<!----><!---->
You assertion seems to be that if you don’t “live and breathe” it you have no business doing it. Not everyone will know if they want to and Norm offered a look into that world. Inspiration has many sources.<!----><!---->
(As to my personal dislike for the current FWW it is predicated on it single minded focus on furniture, the old publication had a lot of variety, just my opinion).<!----><!---->
I don't see the opinions expressed in this thread as mutually exclusive.
NYW can be all of the following at one time without causing even the slightest degree of cognitive dissonance:
- a tool shilling vehicle
- an adult shop class
- fun to watch in the same way many process and DIY shows are interesting "stories"
- bad for professional woodworkers to the extent that it gave many non-woodworker customers dubious ideas about what constitutes and goes into fine furniture, not to mention what it is worth (why anyone with a shop full tools like Norm's can pretty much automatically whip this stuff out)
- attracted legions into the hobby
- thereby creating new markets and products
- as well as shifting the lowest common denominator several units towards "beginner" such that magazines like FWW have a lot more dumbed down content
In short, like most things, NYW was neither all good not all bad, but some of each depending upon your outlook and interests.
That is the most logical comment I’ve seen on the subject, thanks.<!----><!----><!---->
Nap,
Yes, that lad Sean has applied his incisive eye and mind to the discussion. The fundamental point is that the Norm phenomenon, despite being a spectacle and a marketing tool, also serves all those other purposes that Samson lists.
The trick is to separate oneself from the phenomenon (the Norm show in this case) and realise it doesn't have to reflect one's own values to nevertheless contain something of use, both to oneself and others (who may have different wants). The same approach may well inform our view of other information sources, such as FWW. ;->
Moreover, we don't have to treat Norm as either an expert or a charlatan just because we have some view or other concerning his style of woodwork and the medium in which he communicates it. We can use whatever we find useful and ignore the rest.....
Unless, of course, we have some strange belief that the world ought to only reflect our personal wants. It's been called the "me-generation" but perhaps the "cult of the narcissist" better describes this fascination with celebrity along with the wild swings bewteen adoration and villification by the fascinated ones, who abrogate responsibility for their own jusgements and education to some self-appointed expert or other, thus elevating celebrities to the status of either god or devil.
But Norm is just a bloke doing some woodwork on the tele, in fact. No one has to treat him as either a guru/expert or a corrupter of American would-be woodworkers. If he is an advert for tools, we don't have to accept the premiss of the advert. If he is enlightening about how to make some things, we do not have to believe every last thing he says or never step outside of Normism. He's just a useful (to some degree or other) resource.
I have just finished reading Christopher Lasch "Culture of Narcissism". Can you tell? :-)
Lataxe, mentally tooled-up to deal with the modern world of marketing and celebrity (its called "healthy skepticism").
Lataxe,
It's quite obvious even to the most casual observer that Norm is a corrupter..I never owned a flannel shirt until I took up woodworking. Now I even sleep in the things if it's a cold enough night...the wife complains about bits of sawdust in the sheets in the morning prompting me to make comments about the princess and the pea.
I do take off my safety glasses before joining her in the sleeping chamber.
Neil, who, being born in Georgia, can never claim Yankee status (except to our British cousins who make no distinction pertaining to the Mason-Dixon Line though it were a Geordy that made it)
Edited 10/22/2009 2:21 pm ET by noviceneil
What a great post, Samson. Thanks.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
I really don't understand the concept 'good for the craft.' What does that really mean? Was woodworking itself in danger of becoming an artifact of history? Is your whole argument based on the availability of cheap(er) tools?
Not in danger of becoming an “artifact” but not very popular either, there just were not that many tool vendors or much variety available. Not everyone could pony up for a Northfield #4 or a PM66, I would say that the new premium hand planes that we can get with ease are certainly an outgrowth of the rise of hobbyist woodworking and much of that is attributable to PBS and Norm. I remember when a blue Record #7 was as good as it got (no matter how much you tuned it up…). What is your experience with it 25+ years ago? If you were not involved then I can better understand your comments.<!----><!----><!---->
I posted this a short time ago, before I entered this thread...
" I fully understand why Norms' retiring. After 21 seasons, there's not much left for him to expand upon without becoming redundant...or stale. I can only imagine the satisfaction that he's gained thoughout the years, from doing his share to promote woodworking. Someday, somewhere, there will be a replacement person who'll pick up the torch and carry it onward for the next generation. I applaud Norm for his dedication, and wish him the very best.My very 1st project was building his woodworking bench...and I'm still using it today.I believe there'll be a part of Norm in all of us."
Norm wasn't trying to 'wow" the pants off of the already-experienced, he was promoting woodworking, not carpentry, with his show. many beginners started BECAUSE of his show, and that says more than anything about the true motive of the show.
I owned and ran a millwork shop during the shank of my career. I sold the business in 1999 after a 22 year run. I've earned my living working at the bench my entire adult life. Now, I make furniture in my home shop. I guess I've had a shop at home my entire life if you count my childhood.It still seems that your argument has to do with the availability of tools. I guess those arguments would need to be squared with the history of Western woodworking over the last six hundred years or so.As for the show, one wonders why WGBH doesn't simply replace Norm and keep the concept in place. I guess for the groupies this would be an unspeakable blasphemy. That said, New England isn't exactly short on experienced furnituremakers.Other than for the tool argument that you've already made, how exactly does woodworking being "popular" enhance your practice of the craft?
Edited 10/20/2009 5:20 pm ET by Marsupial
how exactly does woodworking being "popular" enhance your practice of the craft?
Maybe you've heard the quote: if you put a million monkeys at million typewriters for 1,000 years, maybe one of them will write Hamlet? ;-)
Great quote.
Well now, IF a show comes along and shows someone a "new way" to do a craft, If a show would TEACH beginers how to make simple things from wood, and IF a show were to INSPIRE others to pick up a tool or two and actually use that tool, THAT might be worthwhile. If a "craft" keeps doing the same-old-same-old, it will wither away. The NYW helped inspire beginers to at least try this craft out. About a third of the replies to this post have been nothing more than a bunch of "elitest" B.S. , that I'm almost sorry I started this thread. Almost like the "owner" of an Ivory Tower, looking down their noses at the "little people" who, it just so happened, built that tower for them. Sheesh, talk about SNOBS.
" Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"
Well said.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Well now, there is the difference, I owned a mechanical contracting business (Commercial and industrial) for over 20 years, sold it a few years back (prior to the meltdown thank the Lord) and now enjoy wood as a hobby along with sporting clays, playing with 1911A1’s, bird hunting, cooking and lots of travel and buying neat tools of all sorts. So, as the hobby increased in popularity (brought on by the likes of Norm) there is an increase in the flow of information, products and services that previously only “insiders” like you had access too. That makes it more enjoyable for those of us for whom it is not a career as it was for you. <!----><!----><!---->
So, if hobby pipe welding and machine rigging ever comes about I’ll do my best to write articles on how to select the best 800 ton centrifugal chiller and cooling tower combinations and deal with the sheet metal and DDC sub-contractors. Until them I’ll just watch NYW reruns.<!---->
FWIW I’m not sure much of anyone had hobbies, wood or otherwise 600 years ago or 100 years ago for that matter so I don’t feel the need to “square’ that subject. <!----><!----><!---->
Edited 10/20/2009 9:19 pm ET by Napie
Edited 10/20/2009 9:21 pm ET by Napie
Your posts really answers the questions you asked. HVAC has a hobby won't ever really exist.
People have always made things out of wood, even as nonprofessionals.
Norm is given too much credit for an activity that people have been engaged in for millenia.
Ya think? Maybe that sarcasm thing slipped right by you….<!----><!----><!---->
As to the influence of the NYW, we’ll just disagree, but the preponderance of the evidence is pointing against your opinion. People have been cooking for millennia also but there is little doubt Julia Child brought it to the forefront in America, or would you like to argue that established fact also?<!----><!---->
Napie,
I believe that Rachel Ray and her 30 minute meals might be a more apt comparison than Julia Child.
Ray
That's funny, you are of course wrong but it is still funny. Both Norm and Julia started something those that followed did fine jobs but they were first. And remember French food snobs said many of the same things about her that we are seeing here about Norm, I'll chaulk it up to pure envy.
What, exactly, are you saying that Norm started?
Napie,
I'd guess the envious ones are those who aspire to having a 20plus year career as a tv celebrity. It's revealing to the discussion, I think, that suddenly we're talking about other tv entertainer/ celebrities. Folks that I admire and aspire to emulate as craftsmen I admire for the mastery of their craft, not the degree of their fame nor the number of fans they have acquired.
I have absolutely no animus towards Mr Abrams. I don't mean to come across as having such. I just do not understand his deification, and based purely upon his unassuming tv persona, I'd be curious as to how he feels to be the recipient of such fierce hero worship.
Ray
I believe that Rachel Ray and her 30 minute meals might be a more apt comparison than Julia Child.
Wow. That's a good one Ray.
dan
I understand that you think Norm Abrams' show on PBS was transformative for vast numbers of people and that he almost single-handedly created a woodworking tool renaissance and brought hobby woodworking out of the Dark Ages or an impending Dark Ages.The odd thing about the tool argument is that he hawked a brand, Delta, that had long served the hobby market as well as the professional market and had done so literally decades before Norm came on the scene. Ever laid eyes on a Delta Homecraft machine? How about The Deltagram magazine? (EBay has some for sale from the 1930s, fwiw) Delta's sponsorship of NYW was merely a continuation of a decades long history of providing products and how-to information specifically geared to the home craftsman. Nothing new about the concept, AT ALL. Grizzly predates Norm by five years. Powermatic was founded in 1928. Lie-Nielsen started twenty eight years ago, six years before Norm went on the air. Delta was founded in 1919. Stanley Rule and Level 1920 (origins of company back to 1843), Record (C&J Hampton) 1931. I guess, just as the prophets anticipated the birth of the Messiah, these companies foresaw Norm and planned to somehow stay in business until his arrival on television in the early 1980s. This seems to be what you would have us believe.This "larger than life" figure has apparently been featured in FWW only twice. The most recent article was on how to build kitchen cabinets.
Edited 10/21/2009 5:36 pm ET by Marsupial
Hmm, and what about your last reply? Yes, there are two "camps" here. Or maybe three? One "camp" looks to Norm as a teacher, another looks at any "Normist" as a piriah to be purge from everyone's memory, and a third camp just sits there and laughs at both camps. Some send a lot of strange E-mails, others "dart in" and sling a bit of mud. Answer me this, if it wasn't for Norm's "work", HOW could we even tell IF YOUR work is even in the "Fine" level that YOU brag about. Others are in a "Norm Fan Club" and get all bent out of shape evne at the least disrespect of Norm.
A third camp will drop in on Norm's show for a tip or two, or check out the piece that Norm is going to copy. A technique might catch their eye and then a "light bulb" goes on.
As for the arguement about plaid shirts, why are you so wrapped up in what the guy wears? This wasn't a fashion show. I suppose YOU wear a suit and tie in the shop?
Lastly, to the "Norm Snobs" out there, you have fought for 20+ years to get rid of Norm, now you have your wish. You have made the world of "FIne" woodworking safe from heretics.
" Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"
I haven't made any claims about my work, though I've attached a picture for you.I don't care what Norm wears.My posts are addressing the groupies, not those in the third camp who by your description, to me, would seem to have him in proper perspective.I was not aware that there was some sort of conspiracy to "get rid" of Norm. Could you explain further about how such a conspiracy was supposed to have operated? Are you asserting that the conspirators have somehow forced Norm to announce his retirement?
Edited 10/21/2009 1:45 pm ET by Marsupial
I think I'm also in that third camp. As for the "fight against Norm" , seems everytome Norm's name came up, some would go out of their way to "bash" anything "Norm". Almost as if the mere presence of the NYW would somehow "Cheapen" THEIR CRAFT. I was woodworking since I was a teenager, when Norm started his show I was in my late twenties. I'd watch the show for ideas I could use in MY shop. I even used some of his projects as a "starting point" for mine.
I'd show off some of my "Fine" work, but since they have all SOLD, I don't have any pictures right now to "show off" as it were. However, if you'd care to do a little digging around here, you MIGHT find one or two things I've posted here. While I've been in this "Craft" for about 40+ years, I'm always looking at ways to learn new things, try out some new tips and just HAVE FUN. This also has been just a hobby for me ( keeps me out of the local bars) and that's fine with me. In a few years, I can retire, and then we'll see where this hobby takes me. I don't think, though, that it will be to an Ivory Tower, so I can look down my nose at other people's hard work. " Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"
I appreciate the intensity with which you make your argument.
man... thats' some chair !!!!
Thank you. Phil Lowe can teach you how to make one. Now, there's a furnituremaker!
Edited 10/21/2009 3:26 pm ET by Marsupial
Dear Norm Bashers:<!----><!----><!---->
So, you seem to look down on Norm’s work. One reason given: It “cheapens the craft”. Please explain what that means. Then tell me how you are contributing to enhance the craft. <!----><!---->
I had to laugh at “demise of the original Fine Woodworking magazine and encouraged a hobby full of mediocrity” You may want to start your own magazine or show.<!----><!---->
I think it’s time for the bashers to put up or shut up. Let's see your work. Show us your creative genius. Don’t be surprise when someone asks, what’s that piece of crap?<!----><!---->
I apologize in advance to FWW this link is from another source, but it's interesting.
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Norm+Abram+Closes+Up+Shop.aspx#
Please to all those with tool envy please do not click on the above link. Thats my public service advisory for today. I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
Hey, no need to apologize. We're all woodworkers, right?
Now wearing my FWW shirt to a PW bash might be another matter. I certainly got some strange looks/comments, that was funny.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Damn, you are full of hate for the man; you really need to chill out. I think Norms a great guy very accomplished and to be admired but this has already taken far, far too much of my valuable retirement time. I got a new shotgun to start breaking in today, cigars to smoke and a wee dram to taste!!! I might even use my pin nailer, just for fun.. Oh yeah, I even have one of those old “Homecraft” machines (8” tilt-table saw/4” jointer combo waiting to be restored) and quite a few copies of old Deltagrams too. Early retirement has its benefits like time to collect stuff.<!----><!----><!---->
Great chair you built, WAY beyond my abilities.<!----><!---->
BTW, when exactly was your cover shot on FWW? Just curious. <!----><!---->
I don't hate Norm. What I don't care for is hyperbole and the blah, blah, blah that usually comes with. I've never had a cover piece in FW, but if they're interested I'd be happy to do a write up on the chair.I'd still enjoy hearing the specifics of your theory about Norm's impact on the woodworking tool industry.
Edited 10/22/2009 9:35 am ET by Marsupial
I think Norms a great guy very accomplished and to be admired
I totally agree Napie.
Most on this forum will recognise me as one who prefers handtools. Yet I, too, went through a period when I aspired to work like Norm. Like others, I moved on from this, not so much that I stopped using machines, but rather that they became relegated to a secondary role in my workshop. My methods of work changed, and the times that I caught one of Norm's shows I would watch with one eye - just curious how he would attack the joinery. I had moved away, and no longer found his way to be my way. There was the occasional show in which Norm used a handtool, such a hand cutting dovetails or using chisels or a block plane. I read an article (in Pop Wood?) that he enjoyed handtools in his own workshop. I wanted to read this. It renewed a bond. You see I like Norm. I may no longer identify with his methods, but my respect for him has not wavered. A great teacher, and a man modest in his success.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 10/22/2009 10:19 am ET by derekcohen
I think that I saw only one episode of the New Yankee workshop - some 20 years ago. Not a badge of honor not a statement of shame.How you see Norm (or anything else for that matter) depends on your angle.To use golfers' terms (even though I am not into golf): to a middle schooler, a high school is an 'eagle', to a high schooler it is a 'par', and to a college student a 'bogey'. A high school does not 'do' something that was not done before. Are high schools of a lesser value? Nope!Going a bit further. Even the 'finest' woodworking is not in the league of the proverbial rocket science. Should the folks with advanced degrees (and competence) in, say, hard fields look down on fine woodworking? Nope!We enjoy different things, we strive to be good at different things - so why be antagonistic toward them?Best wishes,
Metod
Derek,
Like you, I aspired to work like Norm. So what does that mean? It means that someone else sets up each of the tools so that I only have to push the wood through. Ha ha ha ha. I always liked Norm because of his persona. He comes across as a normal, good, nice guy who enjoys life and works hard. I could never understand why some woodworkers are so uppity. Norm never appeared uppity. He was "the guy next door who could make or fix anything." He never seemed to be speaking "down" to his audience. I never thought of Norm in terms of period furniture, or studio furniture. I don't think he did either. Norm has influenced more people about woodworking than all other woodworkers in the history of the world taken together. If I could take any five woodworkers, current or deceased, to a special dinner using a time machine, Norm would be one of the five. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'll jump into the fray. Hopefully, this thread will be the last of the Norm is Great-Norm is a Hack discussions.
I never thought he made very good furniture, with plywood, biscuits, his brad nailer, pocket screw machines or finishing with poly. Has anyone seen him make M&Ts? Or hand cut dove tails? Use a hand plane? I haven't, but I could be mistaken.
I won't miss the show at all and the 50 or shows I saw, didn't learn much. I did find the show interesting for how to do machine tool work-arounds, and his order of work, which was very organized. I do think his plywood work is excellent. Also his shop furniture (router tables and work benches) which also made extensive use of plywood were excellent.
Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
It is sad, but consistent, how humans in any group, wood working in this case, work so hard to bring down anyone that has had a certain degree of success and fame. I was hoping woodworking was somehow immune to that. I guess not. I am sad to see the show go, and I don't even use a brad nailer. Brent.
Some of you guys need to get over yourselves....just let it go!
Norm abrams is low hanging fruit , he really puts it out there . He has a lot of constraints put upon him, time , subject matter , being able to sell the episode , trying to schedule with the other program , and heaven forbid he has a personal life. I watched last year and was watching his hands and he had a touch of the shakes. He's tired , probably wants something more enriching than spending 60 hours in a frickin' shop. He probably wants a breathe and a little enjoying those bountiful low hanging fruit he has sowed . I for one have noticed that the program has waned a bit . But i have attributed that to my evolution as a carpenter, but he made it accessible , step by step. I for one am truly am a big fan, he a decent man and a good craftsman. We should all try to have a trifecta of a life like that. By the very slim chance that you read this , Vaya Con Dios, when things were not so good since 1979 you sparked me to keep at it , you have inspired, mentored alot of people. Hey one question..... do you think i could take a peek at that bank book.... i got this feeling.
Edited 10/21/2009 8:39 pm ET by alias
Hi All:Every couple of years there have been these Norm bashing/Norm is great debates which I quite enjoy. Where is that Drew fellow who use to flame everybody? I will miss these debatesDennis
Dennis,
I ignored this thread until today, and just scanned the entire thing. It didn't take long to read, since there isn't much intellectual content -- Just woodworkers having fun. Of all of the comments here, I liked yours best:"Every couple of years there have been these Norm bashing/Norm is great debates which I quite enjoy. Where is that Drew fellow who use to flame everybody?"Nicely said. I figured out long ago that Knots is not about woodworking. It is about woodworkers. We have all types of woodworkers. Indeed, woodworkers are pretty much like the general population of the world, but probably as a group are not as well educated as the general population. That doesn't matter because you don't have to be educated to be a "woodworker". This is especially true because we have no agreed-upon definition of a woodworker. I guess if you join Knots, you are a woodworker. We have some who make cabinets, and some who make period furniture. We have bowlmakers and chairmakers. If you look at the Gallery, you see folks who have great talent, and folks who don't, and ALL OF THEM get to have their say about important things and things which are not so important.All in all, woodworkers are a great group. They are much more fun, in general, than the general population. They have something special in common. They all make things. That can't be claimed about the general population. Of course, some woodworkers make more noise than woodwork, but what the heck, they are woodworkers too.I was thinking. We need to find a way to make woodworkers more of a "community". How about special clothing for woodworkers? Such as teeshirts which say things like:
- It's five oclock. Do you know where your woodworker is?"
- "Woodworkers need love too."
- "Take a woodworker to lunch."
- "would you let your daughter marry a woodworker?"
-"They'll have to pry my Lie Nielsen out of my cold dead hand."I think of this thread as a celebration of what woodworkers are all about. Let the discussions continue. I plan to start a thread on Norm every six months, just to get everyone to come out of the woodwork.Have fun. Thanks for the great post. Ain't this a wonderful place?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Ain't this a wonderful place?"
Amen Brother! Life is good! I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
Mellllll,
Woodworkers do have special clothes...dark tee shirts under flannel shirts...c'mon...jeans and workboots... AND no more important safety rule than these, safety glasses...
I like Norm even though I've never used a pin nailer to make furniture, I like David Marks, and Roy Underhill, and those terrible actors from Woodsmith...now I'm gonna have to buy a DVD every couple weeks cause there'll be no woodworking shows on TV...I wish to God they had a Woodworking Channel...but then it would gradually be replaced by a bunch of DIY'ers with Kiwi or Aussie accents that build bookcases and tables out of recycled construction grade plywood and remnants from Joanne Fabrics, shows like Flip that Workshop, etc
Sigh. Guess I'll have to stop watching the tellie and go out to the shop and make something....
Neil
Neil,
I like your style. I enjoyed both Norm and Roy. I do watch DVDs. I learn a lot from DVDs. David Savage has turned out his second pair of DVDs and I just ordered them. Only about $30 for the pair including shipping from Europe. He charges about $20,000 a year to his students, so the price of his DVDs is cheap in comparison. Interestingly enough, he doesn't do the DVDs himself. He has his chief woodworkers do it. I talked to him earlier this year, and suggested he turn out some DVDs on difficult issues such as design. He said that would be difficult. We'll see.I'd like to see a DVD on the use of the Stanley #45. I have gotten Larry's two videos on using Hollows and Rounds. What DVDs have you run across that you think are pretty good?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I just got done watching Larry Williams sharpening video which was quite helpful for carving tools and moulding planes. I want to build an exterior door for the walk out half basement under my shop so I got the NYW video wherein Norm builds a mahoganey door with bulls eye glass..my version will be of different wood and probably more Craftsman style but I just wanted to see it being built...recently I revisited Cosman's Rough to Ready video as I have some 12-15 inch wide walnut boards that just won't fit on an 8" jointer so I have to flatten them by hand.
David Marks has a video on hand scrapers that was helpful. I even built the jig he uses for holding the scrapers while flattening them on waterstones.
Graham Blackburn has a video series I started subscribing to that's enjoyable, can't recall its name..I think it's published quarterly, wish it was monthly.
I do miss the days when Woodworks was on every morning..I got to watch it several times per week when Indiana ignored DST and the show would come on an hour early...then I scheduled a weeks vacation in the summer, planning on watching the show every morning then going out to the shop inspired. That was the week they stopped broadcasting the show.
Neil
Forgotten about Drew. He hasnt been around for at least 7 or 8 years. The first Norm thread almost shut down the site. I remember the Mods posting, "What a weekend on Knots!" Those were the golden days of this site....Jimmy
Jimmy,
I think the golden days of KNots are still here.
I am enjoying them immensely, warts and all.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think the golden days of KNots are still here.
You bet! VERY SPECIAL FOLKS IN HERE.. Even if I do not understand what they said!
Hi Neil:I think you are on to something. How about the "Iron Woodworker" where a hand tool guy and a power tool guy compete to build a piece of furniture using a mystery wood. The Dalles Cowgirls could judge.Or how about "full contact woodworking"! Or "Woodworking with the Stars"In fact the market for people who want high end woodworking shows is quite small. To stay on the air the program must appeal to a large segment of the audience. I do tape Roy, Norm, and the Woodsmith guys who can't act, and play them when there is nothing else on to watch at night. (which is getting more and more often).Dennis
Dennis,
These are great ideas. How about a Woodworker 911 based on Nannie911 where dysfunctional woodworkers battle it out over Norm, tails/pins first, SawStop vs the peple who don't think it's worth the money, new tool guys vs old tool guys, etc...then in steps the expert to set them right (which sometimes may require a really hard blow to the head using a holdfast or an eight pound smoothing plane from NZ to get them to shut up long enough to explain the TRUTH, the one WAY that cannot be deviated from.....goodness, I think we highjacked the thread...never saw that coming....yeah, I hate Norm...I hate everybody...but then again sometimes I like to watch Norm...I guess I don't hate him...damn, I forgot my meds this morning....
Neil, I think
Neil, you think?
Uh, good thing this isn't a blog or you'd be required to provide full disclosure. Please, no visuals.......
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
A blog requires too much consistent thinking, my thoughts come in inconsistent and random spurts...I did have an idea for a nude women in woodworking show but I don't think I could get it past the censors, here or on PBS.
Neil
Edited 10/23/2009 11:17 am ET by noviceneil
Neil,
"....inconsistent and random spurts.....".
Belay that nasty phrase! There are ole gimmers using this site!!!
"I did have an idea for a nude women in woodworking show.....".
Mr Ian Norbury got there afore ye. I once saw a full-size figure o' his in the "flesh" at his wifey's Cheltenham exhibition of contemporary furniture. My, those pieces are .... realistic.
View Image
Lataxe, an art conasewah.
Lataxe,
Damn, that's the trouble with woodworking, ya gotta think fast or someone'll get there afore ye. Looks like you shudda spelt it "conasewer" for the prudes.
Neil, a step or two off the pace
I love the picture! Nothing like a dressed or nude woman in my opinion!
I would like to try and carve that. Yes, I'm NOT A TRUE woodworker. I cannot carve worth a hoot! I have to admit I own a CarveWright machine I bought to carve some Draggons for my two China Doll canopy beds. I did MOST of the carvings but I wanted the Dragons to stand out.. I never could carve them all even if I tried really hard!
I would sure love to have a HI-REZ PNG/EPS/AI of that picture... OK so I am asking ALOT!
WillG,
You could always add an Ian Norbury book or three to your vast collection. Thus you would pick up a few tips on carvin' whilst having your attention rivetted by one or two o' his nood ladee pieces - joy squared!
If you were Very Rich you could even buy one of those life-size wooden wimmin o' his. I can tell you that they are indeed Remarkable Objects of a kind that disturb one's biological equilibrium. They are so .... lifelike! Even now there will be Relictius Fundaments dictating detailed dogma concerning various verbotten procedures with such wooden lasses. (Of course, to make up their that's-naughty rules they must be imaginin' them procedures already).
But I digress.
Perhaps your carvin' gene might be activated by the stimulating prospect of carving such a figure yoursen?
Lataxe, always looking for novel educational motives & methods.
Lataxe,
always looking for novel educational motives
I thought you said educational movies whn I first read it.
That brought to mind a commercial whilst viewing 60 Minutes tonight, right before Andy Rooney's segment. It was an ad for The Men Who Stare at Goats. Imagine that, right before Halloween!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
That tele you have in the US of A is (I hear) somewhat peculiar. I rarely watch the things myself, these days, as there seems to be an enormous amount of antic and verbal gobbledegook that I cannot grasp the import of.
If and when I do watch, my innate snobbery operates so its usually the BBC. There are still half a dozen programmes they make that don't seem like broadcasts from another galaxy. However, if there is a rare programme on a commercial channel, such that the discourse or drama is interrupted by glaring, hysterical, shouty eejits waving "products" or worse "services" at me, I like to mute the sound - just so I can hear myself better as I shout back at them. Or put scurrilous words in to their mouths. Catharsis!
Have y'all seen them Madmen dramas that I have recently watched? Here is a US tele programme with some real content and subtle ideas! No car chases, no mad firing of guns and everyone is a reflection of the then-current society, inclusive of the Big Boss of the advertising agency mooning over Ayn Rand. Perhaps I likes it because it reflects a great many of the concepts that I have been imbibing of late from your Christopher Lasch? ("The Culture of Narcissism"; "The True and Only Heaven"; "The Revolt of the Elites").
****
Incidentally, real men do nor stare at goats. They first challenge them to head-butting and then claim their winner's reward. It is harder than sheep-chasing but, hey, who wants things easy? Mind, butting tires a goat so the wellies are not usually needed (or so I hear).
Lataxe, who would have a row of teles to throw bricks through if he wasn't busy with reality.
It’s funny you mention it but as a US of A citizen I have fallen away from the nonsense broadcasted here also and have been enjoying more of the your country’s entertainment. But alas they have deposited ‘Dad’s Army’.
Bob.. Just for you.
Andy Rooney Thoughts Here's what I have learned.
http://www.funny2.com/rooney.htm
I am one that just loves to hear him talk.
Hi Will,
Thanks, I'm a huge fan of Mr. Rooney. Really liked his article about his woodworking. Last night he said he hope we overhaul the health care industry, it makes him sick.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
This article?https://www.finewoodworking.com/fwnpdf/011146086.pdfTo me, Rooney is like the MasterCard ad - his commentary is entertaining, his insights priceless.
Hey it was cool he had a shopsmith. Must have been a mark I. I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
the stimulating prospect of carving such a figure yoursen.. LOL
Ted,If you want to cheapen the craft... tell everybody they have to do it with hand tools, don't give them any instruction and tell them the can only make _____ style...Norm was always entertaining... even if it was in the 'I could do that faster/better...'
I don't think the idea of craft has anything to do with whether something is done with machine or hand tool. To me the issue has more to do with the attitude the show conveyed, that woodworking is a simple set of procedures performed on some amorphous material and voila, you have a (fill in the blank) . . . To me craft is much less generic. And part of being a woodworker is much more than picking a board or sheet of plywood out of the pile and slapping a cut pattern on it or running a 220 disc on it and calling it done.
I see the elitists are coming out. So how is your career as a conservator at the SPNEA going, or is that beneath you now also… <!----><!----><!---->
Norm bashers suck!! that is my opinnion.Webby
Thats intelligent.
Just making an observation. I agree with Napie, Wingdoctor, Bones, and the others. To say that fine woodworking can only be defined by a few characteristics, is absurd. Woodworking is its own thing to each of us. And is obviously a very personal thing.
I appreciate Norm and his efforts at explaining materials and techniques in an easy to understand manner. And at the time the New Yankee workshop was the only avenue of its kind to educate people broadly on the joys of woodworking. Tage had no show. Sam Maloof had no show. David Marks had no show then, just to give an example.
I agree Norm never would proclaim himself a fine woodworker, but he challenged himself and all of us to produce as fine a project as we could.
It seems to me you are judging the New Yankee workshop acccording to your personal beleifs about woodworking, and the way it should be done. You must be alot better than Norm and his work, if you are I am happy for you but don't knock someone for trying to inspire and educate. I learned a long time ago in life that before you toot your own horn to loudly there will always be smoeone better than you, so learn modesty, and be gracious in your tooting, it will make you more friends in life and you will go farther.
Thanks again Norm for all you have given us.Webby
Right you are!<!----><!----><!---->
“The toes you step on the way up are almost always directly connected to the a** you gotta kiss on the way back down”<!----><!---->
Never said that I thought woodworking should live up to my ideals. Merely stating my opinion on how I felt about NYW and Norm as a woodworker.
So you don't agree with me thats fine.
And of course I know there are many woodworkers out there that excel at what they do and have attained a self actualization that I could only dream of. those folks I do appreciate and look to for inspiration.
Not claiming to be an expert on anything. Just giving my thoughts on a television show I had no deep feelings for and why.
Ted,
I agree with your assesment of craft. But fine woodowrking rests on the foundation of woodworking basics. These basics are just a set of simple procedures. The issue I see is that craft makes for good sound bites, but doesn't necessarily make for good tv… Basics on the other hand are universal.
**
The claim that Norm somehow lowered the quality of woodworking is pretty lame. I think Norm brought an enourmous amount of people into woodworking. If some of those people were not very good, or if they didn't advance; that's not Norms fault. Chances are those people weren't involved very long. On the other hand there are more than a few people that saw that woodworking wasn't 'hard', that took up te craft and grew. I’m one of the people. I don't work like Norm, I don't build any of Norm's projects; but I can safley say that Norm was one of the inspirations to get me started in woodworking.
Will I miss the new Yankee Workshop? We'll see. I PVR'ed the show each week, but more often than not I watch the first portion when he went on his field trip to 'find' the project, then skip the rest.
Buster
"Won't be missing the show in the least bit. IMHO I think the show really cheapened the craft and gave the masses a sort of false sense of what fine woodworking really is. It may have inspired people to get into the craft but beyond that I think it did very little to inspire original design or get people to explore outside the box. I' hope he concentrates his efforts on This Old House where I thought he was a better carpenter than woodworker "
I did not realize it takes original design to be considered FWW. Almost all of his shows were based on taking an existing piece explaining the history or something about the piece that makes it a fun piece to do and proceeds to replicate it. I don't see the issue. His gig was not about original design. I've seen a lot of non-original pieces that were FWW and vice-versa.
I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.George Burns
Edited 10/20/2009 1:44 pm by bones
Never said woodworking or furniture making had to be "original" merely stated what "I" thought. And my thoughts are that Norm and his show cheapened the craft.
Sure I've watched more than a few shows in the past and like you say the show wasn't meant for a bunch of artsy farts. I can see that. But even the period pieces he attempted to replicate I couldn't appreciate either. The mish-mash of modern day techniques applied to an old world genre just doesn't resonate with me and quite frankly I thought his work to be rather crude.
Now obviously you don't agree with me and so be it. Thats fine I'm not trying to win anyone over to my way of thinking.
ted,
It may have inspired people to get into the craft but beyond that I think it did very little to inspire original design or get people to explore outside the box.
Hmmmmmm, not saying much for those who were inspired to get in. I'd be willing to bet there must have been some who became quite good at woodworking.
But they prolly had it in em anyway........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
But they prolly had it in em anyway........
Head of nail, meet hammer.
True craftsmen go through the long, arduous process of serving an apprenticeship where they learn the trade. Understanding the properties of wood, learning the skills necessary to use hand tools effectively are the backbone of "true" woodworking.
Norm has always billed himself as what he is--a master carpenter. He selected pieces which interested him and, given that he had a 30 minute TV show, showed how antiques could be replicated in outward appearance using modern tools. His impact on the sale of routers in particular and woodworking tools in general cannot be discounted. Who has not lusted after his well-equipped shop at one time or another?
The key to Norm's impact may be seen on his website at each project under "See What Other Viewers Have Built." A great many woodworkers of varying skill levels have used Norm's work as the inspiration for their own work. We can't all be Sam Maloof, but we can admire his work and the impact he made on woodworking. In a much broader sense, Norm Abrams has made an impact on woodworking as well.
"True craftsmen go through the long, arduous process of serving an apprenticeship where they learn the trade. Understanding the properties of wood, learning the skills necessary to use hand tools effectively are the backbone of "true" woodworking."
I think your statement, sadly, speaks to a paradigm that has long shifted. I don't think many, folks entering the trade are coming on as apprentices with traditional woodworkers. Rather, I suspect, those entering the business these days are getting a day's training to man a sanding station, glue station or to load/unload sheet goods off a CNC.
There may be a few working in small shops and learning from masters. There are a relative few who go through North Bennet Street, College of the Redwoods, The Furniture Institute of Mass, etc., but I suspect that if you bundled them all together you would be hard pressed to come up with 5% of the woodworking community.
The media (print/video/broadcast/internet) has played a big role, in the last 15-20 years in attracting and developing woodworkers. That's just a fact. Then there is the availability of schools offering weekend and week long classes with respected craftsmen. Those with a passion for the craft have absorbed these things like sponges and learned what they have learned.
The times they are a changing. Love him or hate him, like it or not, Norm's stepping back from NYW has created as much buzz around the community as did the passing of Sam Maloof and James Krenov.
Frank
As in anything such as music or woodworking or etc. there are different levels. Norm was just one of many levels. Norm attracted many people and I think that is great, and I feel he is a jumping off point for many. How could he have cheapened the craft. What cheapens something is forgetting where one comes from, and then comments negatively about where they had come from because their level of expertise has grown. Everything has levels I think we should take what norm did for what it was, one of many levels in woodworking. This is not about Norm but should be about woodworking and appreciation for one of the people in it. He has put his heart and soul into it. If you do something with your heart you cannot cheapen the thing or craft you are doing. I think Norm has added richness to the craft because of this. At every level there is someone better. There maybe someone better than your skill level that thinks your work is not that good. Take out the opinions about the craft and just do it. That keeps everything open and progresses the craft forward.
My post(s) to this thread have nothing to do with looking down on beginners. I'm all for beginners exploring the medium.
The problem "I" had with NYW is "I" feel that it represented the craft with a fairly mundane sterile attitude. "I" never got a sense that there was any real connection between the material, design and "soul of the work" being represented on the show.
But I guess what can one expect in a 30 minute segment. Draw the subject out on the finer points of sanding or shellac and who's gonna want to watch but a bunch of "elitists"? It's much easier to show someone smearing on a coat of plastic and be done with it in 10 minutes or less and get back to the football game. Just like the Minwax commercials.
Edited 10/21/2009 1:13 pm ET by ted
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of the show?
IN my opinnion the show was never about original design, or pefecting fine woodworking techniques. I think the premise of the show was to show how amatuer woodworkers could reproduce some of the finer pieces from prolific cabinetmakers of the past as well as common everyday pieces with no provenance (sp).
It seems to me that obviously in the beginning the show drew heavily upon pieces from New England. From, the Shakers, and other cabinetmakers and pieces found in antique stores and auction houses. I think the idea was that using woodworking skill to recreate pieces that were unavaliable to the public or priced out of the range of the average persons budget was intregal to the format of the show, Thus the tours of places and museums, and the mention of measuring the piece and copying it in 'the shop'.
The idea that it was an assault on fine woodworking is ridiculous; it was a show meant to bring fine woodworking pieces into the range of the weekend woodworkers skill, budget, and ability. Otherwise why did Norm always copy older pieces. He has rarely designed anything in the furniture category. He has designed (or the show) has designed utilitarian pieces i.e. storage sheds, outdoor furniture, etc.
Norm always gave credit and admiration to the craftsmen of old as he gave the public a look at woodworking of the past. Just because he choose not to cut many dovetails by hand says nothing about his skill, ability, or craftsmanship.
So that may contribute to the feeling of sterility and boringness some describe. In my opinnion however I would much rather watch norm recreate a beautiful chest on chest, than watch the father and son on the Router workshop make hokie high school shop looking projects. Just my opinnion and its not wrong, woodworking is what it is to each of us.
Webby
There would most likely be far fewer objections to Mr. Abrams if the claims about his impact on woodworking, impact on tool manufacturing, etc. weren't so ridiculously overblown and if the man himself weren't deified, as another poster put it.
Essentially, you guys are being called out about your man crushes on Norm.
Don't bring the place down by talking about him like he was the daddy you never had. It's kind of depressing and a little bit icky if you want to know the truth. He's a dude on TV. He may go home and beat his wife and kick hell out of his dog for all you know.
Edited 10/22/2009 5:22 pm ET by Marsupial
I have no man crush on Norm Abrams. However, when I was younger the New Yankkee Workshop was my woodworking influence. No one in my family was a woodworker and I had no one else to draw influence from. I took shop class in high school but that was a joke.
Norm has brought the world of woodworking down to a level where it is easily accessible to those who are interested, and provides a good springboard for future learning. If Norm is deified he is in the same way others are in the wide world of woodworking. I would mention names, but then you might think I was trashing them. I enjoy all of the woodworking shows we have now, and draw many things from each of them.
I will say that the clarity and ease at which Norm explained things was better than most, as well as David Marks. For example I like to watch Roy, but sometimes his breathless and convoluted explanation of a woodworking technique amazes me, I mean its enjoyable to watch but really...Not to metion the digging about for stuff on the bench and the sound of falling wood and tools its a wonder.Webby
Webby, have you given books a try? Video is good, don't get me wrong, but maybe the point is to learn woodworking without the added burden of TV personality hero-worship.
Try some of the vintage volumes by Charles Hayward.
For video stuff try a few Jim Kingshott DVDs. Jim's dead, so you're safe.
Edited 10/22/2009 4:45 pm ET by Marsupial
"Try some of the vintage volumes by Charles Hayward. For video stuff try a few Jim Kingshott DVDs."Works for me.
True however when you are fourteen or fifteen, you tend to gravitate toward the traditional. Also the library here has a dirth of books on woodworking that are even remotely modern. Most are pattern books for furniture from the 60's.
Which serves to illustrate my point. I new what I liked and Norm was doing it. I could discern the difference in what Norm was making, pieces with a traditional bloodline so to speak versus the other stuff you might have seen in the day. Yes maybe there were other influences but I lacked the means to find them, the internet wasn't even around then.
I don't care now and didnt then if the piece wasnt created strictly using solid wood and hand methods. To each his own.Webby
Cool.
Well, time marches on doesn't it? Norm's made his nut, the internet has woodworking video like crazy, Amazon sells vintage woodworking books for a song, and you also have places like this.
Yeah its amazing how much info there is now.Webby
WARNING! Could be misconstrued as hero worship!!! Read at your own will.
Just curious if anyone is familiar with how the whole thing got started? In the preface to one of the books that was given to me it described the start of This Old House.
Evidently Russ Morash was developing educational and documentary work for WGBH. He had a house on Martha's Vineyard. He wanted a garage built and was reffered to Norm. He visited Norms job site one day, and was impressed by the neatness of the job, the very small waste pile, and the ability of the then young Norm Abrams. He mentioned that he had a garage that he wanted built, and in typical fashion of contractors Norm said that he was interested, but had some work ahead of him.
Well when the day came, Norm showed up at the Morash home to begin work, a very cold day in New England. In short, Norm completed the building in a timely fashion and Russ was further impressed by Norms ability, even placing two large steel beams virtually by himself.
Russ said at the completion of the job that, "Hey I am thinking of producing an educational show showing people the side of building and construction that isn't normally seen, yada yada, would you like to work for the show. Norm took the opportunity, and This Old House was born, with Bob Villa as the host.
Now this was a low, low budget affair, so they buy a house to remodel, yes the first one was actually purchased by This Old House, as was the 25th. So here they are, with a crumbling rotten house in Dorchester Heights. Of course they thought what are we getting into we could crash and burn so easily. And they really weren't all that encouraged after Norms first assesment - Rotten eaves and sills, termite damage, failing roof. At one point Russ thought god, is this going to work, Can we pull this off?
It was raining as they discussed it and iirc, Russ thought how is this going to work how can we do it? It was all on Norms shoulders as a GC on the project. Norm did it, it worked the, the show worked and look what grew from that? This is This Old House's 30 season.
I would hope that if I was ever given the opportunity like that, that I would have the courage and skill, and wherewithall to come thru when people put there faith in me like that.
Norm is no joke and the real deal, he was given the opportunity of a lifetime, which coincidently required alot of hardwork, smarts and skill on his part in those early days. He in my oppinion has truly earned what recognition and fame that he has.
Webby
Edited 10/22/2009 8:05 pm ET by webby
Mr Wombat,
"Man crush". Tee hee.
Nevertheless, despite your antipodean inclinations to deflate other fellows' dearly-held beliefs with a rude guffaw, you must retain some good manners and refer to Norm as Mr Abrams. If you cannot behave I will have to send Prince Philip to look down his considerable nose at you whilst asking what you do.
After all, Norm cannot help the inclination of the groupies to have crushes on him so snobby fellows should not be blaming the whole cultural psychosis on one man.
And there is nothing wrong with plaid shirts and beards. This is just a fashion. After all, you probably wear flappy-legged fawn shorts and a hat with corks 'round the rim. You too, in all likelihood, are merely an exudation of your local cultural sausage machine.
Lataxe, an awfully good-mannered chap hisself.
With an occasional foray into jodphurs and plus four golfing britches.
Edited 10/22/2009 5:23 pm ET by Marsupial
Lataxe, just a minor correction. It is "Abram" and not "Abrams". :<)
For that minor error you must forfeit one Marcou, please send ASAP. Thanks!
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Bruce,
"It is "Abram" and not "Abrams". ...For that minor error you must forfeit one Marcou, please send ASAP".
Not one but two Marcous (planes, not the bloke) are in the post to you as pedant-reward. (No they aren't). :-)
Incidentally, I should have mentioned that worship of hiz honour The Marcou is the only exception to the general rule banning hero-worship as a pernicious sucker of a trooly individualistic approach to life. Marcou planes are, as you know, the Absolute Knee of the Bee and their maker is obviously A God sent down by Aliens to [message truncated by the Anti-hero committee, who have also send a Deprogrammer to the Lataxe household].
Lataxe, dismantling the altar and hiding the priest-robes in a hole.
I like Norm, but no hero worship. And you would have to be daft to give up one of your Marcou's.
I have to agree about the Marcou throne. Philip makes some of the most handsome, most sexy planes in the world. There are more expensive custom planes out there, but if I could afford it there would be a herd of Marcou on my bench.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Hah!
I loved your post. I am trying to picture Norm kicking his dog and beating the hell out of his wife and I'm cracking up to myself. Beautiful chair by the way.
I am one of those guys who started woodworking because of Norm. It has been about ten years now since I started I guess and it has been a very fun and rewarding journey. Funny thing though, I never built anything from his show, never ordered any plans, never bought a brad nailer.
I do have some plaid shirts. I actually quit watching it several years ago because my tastes and way of working went in a different direction. But, it started because of him. I'm not a groupie, the show being gone doesn't bother me a bit and I do wish there was more woodworking/fine furniture building shows on tv. The DIY shows at times drives me nuts.
But as I said, his show started me off on my journey. He did inspire me early on to think outside the box. A few years ago now I was priveledged to have one of my handplanes in the readers gallery of the Tools and Shops issue of Fine Woodworking. I mention this, not to brag, but to demonstrate that his show helped me to want to be as good as I can possibly be and to always try and learn new ways of doing things.
So I am one of those guys that benefitted greatly from the NYW and am grateful for the show being on. Will I miss it? No. But I'm glad it was on.
Anyway, just my opinion.
When are posters on this site going to remain silent unless they have something good to say. Anyone can criticise.
JP
When are posters on this site going to remain silent unless they have something good to say.
Would you really find a happy-clappy, hold hands, sway and sing Kumbaya forum interesting?
Edited 10/22/2009 2:30 pm ET by Marsupial
Mel's advice was good. I will take it and refrain from posting on this site again.
JP
OK
Want some cheese to go with that whine?Ron
JP,
"When are posters on this site going to remain silent unless they have something good to say. Anyone can criticise."Isn't your comment a criticism? Are you not a pot calling the kettles black?Is your comment the most useful think you could think of to say? If you don't like this thread, why not just ignore it and go to a thread which is of interest to you?Do I think my response to you will do any good? NO.
So why did I write it?
Same reason that the chicken crossed the road.
Y'all have fun. I hope you are able to find happiness somewhere, somehow. If you don't find it here, look elsewhere. Or stick around and be unhappy and negative. Your choice.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have been in the woodworking business for over 50 years and have made everything fron foundry patterns to Kitchen cabinets to custom furniture and I still enjoy watching NYW. With all my experience I still find I can learn somthing from Norm. The only people I have met that don't like him have an overactive ego and presume they are way smarter than he is and usually there work is well under par.
Edited 10/21/2009 8:37 am ET by mrbird90
I can do very nice woodworking.. Not sure if FineWoodworking...
As for Norm and others I took up woodworking because I wanted to try something different. I think I was about 5 years old and asked my Grandpa for tools and wood? Really not sure what I said to him.. But he understood? Grandpa gave be a hammer, saw, orange crates and a bunch of nail to drive into the wood.
He only came to help me if he had to bandage a cut finger!
Norm is the one person who has been on the same TV program for the longest period of time. (possibly in the history of television)
I think close, but perhaps I'd hold off on that cigar.NYW ran for 21 seasons but the entire last season - this one - is comprised entirely of composite reruns. See NYW site list. Norm was in 239 new episodes from 1989 to 2008. An average of 13 per year.Then we have James Arness (Marshall Dillon) in Gunsmoke at 605 episodes in 20 years from 1955 to 1975. Over 400 of which were 60 minute shows. An average of 30+ per year.
He was in all of them.In terms of years, a draw but in terms of total time, I think there was a touch more gunsmoke than wood smoke :)I enjoyed Norm.BoilerKind of little funny side note:
The only authenticated "walk down/quick draw", which started every Gunsmoke episode, was by Bill Hickock v Tutt in Springfield, Missouri 1865. They fired once at 75 yards. Tutt didn't quite win.
not to mention Roy Underhill has been doing The Woodwright's Shop since 1979.http://www.mvflaim.com
He does have a Longggg track record. 377 episodes. How many shave horses do you suppose he made in all that time.
Check out
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/let your mouse wonder over the shot.Boiler
not sure how many shaving horses he has made but he has made 42 chairs since 1979. : )
http://www.mvflaim.com
Thanks for the years of entertainment Norm. Cheers to you. Norm rekindled my interest in ww, though first credit goes to Mr. Kerns my high school shop teacher who was a master craftsman who abided no fools.
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