Hello Knots members,
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In our newest issue of Fine Woodworking (#198 on newsstands soon) we published an article on a huge commission received by Irion Company Furniture Makers. A client asked Irion to reproduce over 90 pieces of the “greatest American period furniture ever built.”
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The furniture itself is flawless. No question about that. For more information about the Irion reproductions, see slideshows detailing all the pieces. But what about the roster of pieces in the commission? Do you think that Irion’s client really did choose the “greatest” examples of American period furniture? Here’s your chance to tell the woodworking community what pieces you would have included, and why. We’re hopeful this will begin a lively discussion.
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Finally, one modest request: Please try to keep comments focused on the pieces in the commission and avoid comments about the value of bankrolling furniture instead of, say, medical research or support for humanitarian causes worldwide. For all we know, the individual behind the Irion commission will have a few bucks left to support those other causes, too.
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Gina
FineWoodworking.com
Edited 4/2/2008 10:34 am ET by GEide
Replies
Gina,
The real problem in attempting to discuss this is that just trying to go through the slideshow is overwhelming!
The only thing that comes to my mind, is "will Irion be offering the plans?"
As to whether or not these are the finest, to judge that would require a knowledge of all pieces made in the period - not a practical thing. And then on what basis would you judge them?
I am glad that Irion got the commission, glad that FWW took some pictures, but it is so far out of my world that it is immaterial whether or not they are the "best" by whatever standard. As long as "John" is happy with the work, that is all that counts.
Mike
I agree with Mike's comments. They are well thought out. As someone who truly appreciates furniture of the styles and periods covered in the commission I can say that the choice and workmanship looks to be excellent from the perspective of a true amateur. Whether or not they will be equally appreciated by those who "study" furniture remains to be seen.
The only problem that I see is in the statement, <A client asked Irion to reproduce over 90 pieces of the “greatest American period furniture ever built.”> One might question the choice of the term "period." It should be defined. One could argue that additional styles, i.e. Shaker, Mission, Modern ect. might include some of the "greatest period furniture" ever built in America. Yes, I realize that the client wanted "period furniture" for a a traditional Pennsylvania farmhouse with excellent woodwork inside, so he selected appropriate period furniture for that setting, but it doesn't mean that there aren't other "periods" in which great pieces of furniture were made.
Edited 4/2/2008 12:36 pm ET by basset-hound
Edited 4/2/2008 12:38 pm ET by basset-hound
I use the term period as short hand for "pre-industrial period", which isn't technically a time period. While some Shaker furniture might fit that definition, most wouldn't, nor would mission, A&C. Interestingly, modern furniture,though sometimes quite different in appearance, is often built pre-industrial circumstances. Winterthur loosely defines the pre-industrial furniture age as pre-1830.Adam
Adam, thanks for the definition. What I was saying is that the article should have defined "period furniture" and not assume that everyone would know that. Otherwise one could define the term in different ways.
I don't think anyone has defined it. At least, I haven't seen any definitions. And there's plenty of reasons to quibble with any definition. I don't like the term myself but I don't know what else to use. I also think there's a difference between period woodworkers (like Roy Underhill) and reproduction furniture makers (like Irion). One concerns himself with the process, one with the product. And Lataxe is right in that I prefer the work of the process oriented stuff.Adam
I would have included one of the stop-fluted leg Pembroke or card tables by John Townsend. And I would have replaced one of the many large breakfronts with an Eliphalet Chapin Highboy, with such an elegant cartouche.
I also have a question about the magnificant tea table with ogee apron attributed to John Townsend, located at Winterthur and published in Michael Moses Master Craftsmen of Newport according to the slide show caption. The Frontispiece of that book shows a table of approximately that form and calls it the only tea table of the form that can be attributed to John Townsend. But this isn't the tea table shown in the slides--that table has the apron running horizontally entirely to the corner, covering the vertical post of the leg, while the publish one shows the apron joined to the vertical leg. One more similar to the table pictured in the slide is one on Plate 7 of the Moses book, and also a Winterthur piece. But this one is attributed to John Goddard. So my question is whether the attribution by Winterthur has changed or just disagrees with Moses? The other possibility is that features of Townsend and Goddard pieces were amalgamated for the piece pictured in the slide.
Steve,
I was the first client to commission Irion make one of those tea tables. See my other photos in my earlier post today (also attached here of the tea table). The aprons do in fact run to the corner. I seem to remember a conversation 15 years ago that the table may have been made both ways. I don't recall whether the original for my repro was at Winterthur or not, but they did make a trip to a museum to copy it. This was in the Paoli (PA) shop. Irion later merged all operations into the Christiana shop. Undoubtedly, when their client wanted one of those tea tables, they just dusted of the plans for mine.
Dan
Steve,
Your comments prompted me to revisit why we had certain pieces commissioned, and our sources. We not only used the Moses-Sack book (where you will see a version of the tea table with continuous aprons on Plate 7 and elsewhere), but also the excellent book "American Furniture in the Metropolitan Museum of Art." I think that's where we picked th etall case clock.
Regards,
Dan
Yes, to my eye the commissioned table follows the Plate 7 table which is a Winterthur piece as a continuouis apron piece. It is a magnificant table, helped by the flow of the apron. I have seen the similar table reproduced by another craftsman--which is not surprising given the beauty of the piece.
My only question was about the makers attribution. The slide show caption speaks of the maker as being attributed to John Townsend, while Plate 7 states calls it "made by John Goddard". As far as I know, based entirely on the Moses book, the only table of similar form made by John Townsend was one without the continuous apron. That is the one pictured in the Frontispiece and not mentioned in the text. My question then was whether there has been subsequent scholoarship, probably at Winterthur, that would change the attribution from Goddard to Townsend on the Plate 7 piece.
My interest in Townsend was sparked by the card table by him in the Metropolitan Museum of Art (plate 100 in the American Furniture in the ....) I was so captured by it that I spent several hours plopped on the floor next to it in the museum making a few sketches. That must have been in the mid-eighties. It became the first period piece that I attempted to reproduce in my hobbiest's shop.
Steve,
I also liked that card table from the MMA. In fact, 10 years ago it was my spark to build a simple side table evoking the same lines as that piece. Photos attached. My skills are still meager, but it's great to get inspiration from these wonderful pieces built hundreds of years ago.
Regards,
Dan
What nothing from John and Thomas Seymour! Surely at least one of their pieces should have been included in the series.
The sideboard with the gallery to my eye is the best piece, followed by the demilune card table with crotch veneer. The bombe chest on chest with the gilded eagle is pretty impressive too.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I agree
i was allso hoping to see a piece by John and Thomas Seamour,
Mark
I am familiar with and love many of these pieces. I wouldn't get too far into the "Greatest" pieces without the Cadwalader card table. Of course this is extremely subjective with my taste being the best. I also agree with Steve on the Townsend chinese inspired pembroke tables. I don't think I saw any pie-crust tea tables, either. Cal
I feel the pieces chosen offer a narrative that the owners may not have intended. Its a story about social climbing by the nevus-riche then and now. Its a collection of furniture that could only exist in the period in the houses of people like scoundrel sea captain James MacPherson, a privateer from a poor family who struck it rich and purchased the trappings of an aristocratic life to ensure his social ascension.
I find Irion's pieces in general to evoke a 1976 idea of American history. They are exceptional, shiny, unblemished, glossing over the ever present contradictions that define the period. It was a time in our history when slave owners fought for individual rights. Where democracy was vital, but only offered to land owners. And such contradictions found their way to the furniture. One of the finest mechanics of the period, John Goddard went to extraordinary lengths to "build well" but routinely skipped even a jack plane on undersides or innards. Philadelphia craftsmen were more fastidious, but left rive marks on drawer bottoms of the finest pieces and their backs are often atrocious nightmares of cobbled together packing crates.
Were I in the position, I would have chosen pieces that represent the period warts and all, to offer my guests or heirs a deeper understanding of the complexities and contradictions that define us all. I may also have chosen pieces over a wider time span to offer an interpretation of a family with roots.
Lastly, I would have chosen a craftsman to build that furniture who would use that money to further research the period and give something back to the artisan community. Not a high end furniture factory.
The pieces are beautiful. Big sales like this are good for the entire industry, me included. But I think this customer could have done a better job furnishing their mansion.
Adam
Adam,
Ha ha - you are soooo predictable. Do you never tire of the sound of your own Braying Trumpet and your desire to knock everyone who steps on "your" territory?
That furniture is beautiful and beautifully executed. Does one need any of that socioligist blather of yours to appreciate it. (No question mark, that was a rhetorical question). No doubt you think you should have built it all, inclusive of the "authenticity" of the deliberately poor workmanship you are so keen to recommend.
I think I am going to make you the first poster to Knots I ever switched out, you weary me so with your pointless parping and one-note "message". Gawd, you can drone! You shoulda been an English vicar.
I greatly admire the people who made those pieces and the person who commissioned them, despite knowing virtually nothing of the design-stories behind them - about which stories you pompo-vendors will no doubt disagree, fabricate, imagine and read somewhere then regurgitate. Like hi-fi buyers who only listen for the glitches or valve-hisses and never hear the music.
As to whether they are the greatest period pieces - it seems an artificial question. There are surely a thousand lists, all different, depending who makes the list and their tastes. Or is someone going to outline the definitive set of objetive and scientific rules for selecting great period furniture. No, Adam, please, no. no! (Not you either Boss, thenk yew).
Lataxe
David, I'm a little confused about your role here. It's my understanding that you write a blog hosted by Fine Woodworking. I've avoided it for fear of burns from hot air or perhaps other torture by rectilinear contrivance.
May we assume that these posts of yours now bear the editorial imprimatur of Taunton Publishing given your expanded role and battlefield promotion, as it were?
Clearly, somebody has added oats to your diet. Perhaps the ladywife? Anatole? By Golly, I bet I know what it is - you're in your late 50s right? Did you start male hormone replacement therapy? It's okay. Tell Daddy all about it.
Edited 4/2/2008 5:07 pm ET by BossCrunk
Dadda!
Yes, it's them oats. I will lay off the extra muesli immediately.
As to Taunton blogs, I'm afraid you've got the wrong end of the stick. I happened to make one poor contribution to one o' them. I can't imagine Taunton would regard me as anything other than an embarrassment (silly old Brit phart). Anyway, if I were a Rotweiler, I would be the one with three legs that hobbles towards you grunting (bark gone and its an effort to hobble) to give you a nasty gumming.
Thank you, though, for your enquiry concerning the hormones. I still have a surfeit, unfortunately, despite trying to dissipate their energy by pushing planes about and pestering the ladywife. I blame all them years racing a bicycle, which tends to stimulate all kinds of glands into over-production.
You may be sad to learn that I have decided to lay off poor Adam as he was feeling it a bit personally. (Actually, it was me feeling like that, but I like to blame him for everything as a matter of habit now). You enjoy blood-letting, I know - it is your cruel and unusual nature which you cannot help. I am trying to reform before I am sent off by Ms Eide the moderator to dunce's corner for a spell (or even expelled). It might be even worse than that - Mel will tell me I must be nice and I will have to be!
Meanwhile, where is your Hot Air concerning The Importance of Art in Furniture? I was hoping for some of your Great Truths so I could giggle a bit.
Lataxe, trying to freewheel, honestly.
You manly man you! Gracious Lawd!You're trying too hard. Relax. We all think you are cute. Give it a go without all the rhetorical accoutrement and assorted shabby mis-matched baggage.Daddy is gettin' tired.
Edited 4/3/2008 9:11 am ET by BossCrunk
Papa,
You are a typical daddy. One minute you tell me to try harder and the next I must relax. Contradictions all the time! No wonder teenagers get moody. I've a good mind to stomp off in a huff to the fridge.
Lataxe, yower li'l boyuh.
You should try harder at relaxing....;-)Damn, I used one of those ForestGirl winky things. Did I do it right?
Edited 4/3/2008 9:38 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
You must be Irish, issuing me with all them paradoxical aphorisms. Well, ye can stop that for a start!
Top o' the mornin' to ye (and the rest o' the day to yerself, ye wee skalpeen).
Lataxe
Boss,
Honest to Pete, you and David are what gets my sorry butt out of bed in the mornings.
Winky things, indeed.
Regarding period furniture, I attended a lecture last evening by a fellow named Sumpter Priddy, one of the editors of the CW book on southern furniture. His talk was on early furniture of the Shenandoah Valley. Mr P is an antiques dealer, and student of southern furniture, former CW employee, and all round guru. It was quite an interesting talk. He has photos of stuff made right here in my back yard that rivals the stuff made in the big cities. Fascinating stuff, carved, inlaid, and pretty sophisticated. Might want to add a piece or two of southern stuff in that 100 best list. (Maybe it is already there, my dial-up connection is too slow to think about downloading.)
I'd $hit a green nickel if somebody would give a presentation like that in Memphis.
Boss,
Ah but didn't Memphis host "The Art of the Motorcycle" a few years back? (Insert smiley thing here.)
I had to drive an hour and a half, to Winchester, to hear the talk, but it was worth it. This guy's next book will be a doozey.
Are you familiar with Derita Williams' book on Tennessee furniture? There is a group of stuff built in the Knoxville area that has a lot in common with Winchester's. Some craftsman, or one of his journeymen, moved south.
One of Priddy's points was on the mobility of craftsmen of that time. He traced one maker and his son, from New England, to New Jersey, to Va, NC, son went to Alabama, back to Va
There was a definite path of migration for cabinetmakers, shown by furniture details and construction, from Annapolis Md, thru Frederick Md. thence thru Winchester Va and south to Tn. Also west from Winchester thru WVA, and into Ohio. Winchester was the going place back in the 18th c. Stepping off point for all areas of the back country. It must have been a real boom town, had a thriving furniture/joinery industry as well as clockmakers, gunsmiths, all sorts of crafts.
Ray
Yep, part of an ongoing series of "Wonders" exhibits that started back in the early 1980s I think. Took my son to see the bikes. Good show.I have not read the book you mentioned. I'll make a note to check it out.
Edited 4/3/2008 10:49 am ET by BossCrunk
"
Yep, part of an ongoing series of "Wonders" exhibits that started back in the early 1980s I think. Took my son to see the bikes. Good show".
***
And hopefully you stopped and picked up some Memphis bar-be-que on the way to or from. Now unlike furniture.. there's another area I am more than familiar with.
Regards...
Sarge..
Man I live here I've eaten my weight in it many times over..... tell 'ya what though I like Topps BBQ as much as the designer, touristy brands like Corky's, Neely's, et al.
Topps has been around forever and there used to be enough of them around town that you didn't have to drive more than a few miles to find one. Leonard's was a legend but there's only one of them left but that's all you need right?
I just came up for a coffee break and saw your post, Charles. After reading it their are plans on the burner to head out for bar-be-que to-night as it put me in the mood. And the mood a few dollars is all that is required if you know the hot-spots.
Bar-be-que is all g-o-o-d... some is just better than others. As long as you have a southern slow cook with smoke for 12-18 hours.. you have a start. But what separates the good from the also ran is probably the sauce. And that is where you will get different opinions of what's fine and what's so-so..
Interestingly, I have never heard of Topps and probably just a major over-sight on my part if they have "been around". Corky's.. Cozy and Interstate aren't worth a return visit as I see it. Leonard's.. Central are worth the drive IMO. And the bar-be-que and coconut creme pie out in Germantown at the Comm. are notable also.
I would also recommend Memphis Minnies but it's all the way out in San Francisco, Californ-i-a and and the price of gas is prohibitive. he.... If and when I roll through again.. Topps is on my menu. I'm sure you can pull up to any filling station and just ask for directions. They may not be able to direct you to City Hall... but h*ll anyone can tell you where to get some "fine bar-be-que and how to get there as it's a road well traveled.
Back to the shop as I suppose this thread is about "fine furniture". We got off on "fine".. just not furniture. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards to W. TN. where the bar-be-que and blues are *****...
Sarge..
Used to be a place over in West Memphis, Arkansas (Holliman's) that had the best brisket sandwich I've ever had. It was to die for. I don't think they're still in business. Just a short jaunt across the bridge. I may call information and see if they're still around. I'm hawngry.When I eat Topps I don't even put BBQ sauce on the meat. The pork is perfect. Each little restaurant has its own pit and I happen to live close enough to one to smell it when the wind's blowing right.
I'm sitting in an office near Boston and suddenly I can smell it too.
I do love good bbq. Don't know if I've ever had it, though, being a lifelong Nor'Easterner...
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
This is the hotbed. Wet, dry, in-between, sweet sauce, vinegar based sauce, no sauce. Shoulders, beef brisket, ribs. It's all here.If you come to Memphis you need to get a BBQ pizza from Coletta's. If you go to the one on S. Parkway (the original I think it's still open), take your Glock.
Edited 4/3/2008 4:00 pm ET by BossCrunk
Good tip.
I could easily pile on the pounds in Memphis.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
BC
Don't know if you have time to watch b-ball but Memphis is in a big one with Kansas. Looks exciting.
d
Oh I watched it. I practically live on campus. The street I live on is closer to the academic buildings than most of the campus parking lots...
Back to the original topic of discussion - There's little doubt that Irion's client picked out most of the most celebrated icons of early American furniture, but there's a difference, in my opinion, between "celebrated icon" and "best".
Naturally, "best" is a HIGHLY subjective question, but I really don't think Affleck's Philadelphia high chests are the best of the best in early American high chests. Masterfully carved, yes, but proportionally appropriate - no. To my eyes, they are very "heavy" and - dare I say it - clumsy looking.
A similar sort of argument could be made about most of the pieces that the client commissioned - depending on your point of view, Townsend tea tables are sparse and plain, or they're the epitome of graceful form.
The point I'm making is that it would seem that the client made choices based on the most famous or costly design of a basic form, instead of presenting a unifying sense of taste as the criterion for selecting the pieces to be reproduced. For example, the client could've decided that he preferred the highly-ornamented forms of Roccoco Philadelphia furniture, and based his choices from other regions on that basis. Or, he could've selected the "form over ornamentation" style most represented by the restrained carving on Newport pieces, and based his decisions in Salem, Boston or Charleston furniture on that basis. Either way, I personally think it would've made for a better collection. As it is, the house would seem to be more of a museum than a unified, high-style representation of 18th century furniture as it would be seen in an affluent household in the period.
Or, just maybe, he simply commissioned what he liked. His house, his money.I think he did a great job.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Peter,
I hope you are not going to deny Excited Folk the opportunity to explore their various taxonomies? This would be like taking away the pills from an ill person just as an attack is coming on.
Anyway, very soon now they will all begin discussing how many angels can dance on the head of that pin and so we will have The Answer at last! Surely you will feel gratitude!? I know I won't. :-)
Lataxe, mouth still hanging open with personality-amazement.
This little piggy went to market.... this little piggy stayed home........and this little piggy cried, meme, meme, meme, all the way home.
Edited 4/7/2008 6:56 am ET by BossCrunk
Oink!
I don't think I would want to live down the street from one as that might present just too much temptation. I had to lay off cholesterol to a degree after getting a stent put in my leg about 2 years ago... so that requires I live off Creole red beans and rice.. potatoes.. vegetables and fish all week. I weigh the same as the day I came out of VN... so probably a heredity thing in my case from my dad.
But... come Saturday or Sunday after running on lean all week... clear the way to the nearest Cajun or BBQ shack for either some adouille (An-dwee) and crawfish gumbo when in season.. or the nearest BBQ shack for some smoked pork sandwiches or ribs..
Those Memphis ribs are real good also BTW.. as good as there is I believe. And to not go out of bounds too far....
I like to view fine pieces of furniture even though it would not fit the mold at my own home. Now.. that's somewhat on track with the thread theme. I just like to view it while chewing a pork rib or downing a BBQ sandwich... hold the side orders with the exception of good Brunswick stew. And most have no clue what that is I would guess? ha.. ha...
Back to the hole for round 4 of a 12 rounder today with sawdust...
Regards...
Sarge..
It does need to be enjoyed in moderation. Have fun.
This stuff is impossible to resist. The trouble for a visitor is there isn't enough time to take in all of the backcorner spots in Memphis. I can eat enough B-stew in NC, I can't get enough Andwee when I'm along the river. Love that food.
Evening Ray.... in one of these threads (of course I can't find it now).. you mentioned a book by I believe George Stuart titled The Wheelwright's Shop. I found the book at Amazon but my local library strangely enough doesn't have it. Nor did I find in on the Borders web-site. So.. I cannot have a look before purchase.
You made it sound interesting to me.. so could you advise if it is worth the price of purchase without being in position to spot check the contents?
Thanks for any assitance...
Sarge...
Sarge,If you go to http//books.google.com and do a search for "wheelwright's shop" there, I think you'll be able to preview enough of the book to decide if you want to buy it. My guess is that you will.Dan
Thank you for the info, Dan. From what Ray stated (if I could just find the post) it immediately got my attention as it sounded to be a very interesting read. From your comment... I assume you have read it or at least skimmed it's content.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,No, unfortunately I haven't read the book - at least not yet - just the preview pages at the Google book site. Like you, I thought it sounded interesting when Ray mentioned it, and I intended to look for it, but then let it slip. Ray's post was March 29, 2007, just over a year ago. It's athttp://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=35333.36 On the page for the book at the Google book site you can enter your Zip Code and look for a library that has it. Looks like in this case it's mostly universities - Emory, Oglethorpe, Georgia Tech, etc. - so it's not surprising you couldn't find it locally.I see that Amazon is down to just two copies in stock. Should be enough.Regards,
Dan
Thanks Dan, as I will jump on one of those two this morning after I try a local search of the library. Ray posted that the gentlemen's last name is not Stuart but Sturt. Worth the shot as the library (which is exceptional in our area) nor Borders (who covers most bases) rejected as could not find with what I entered.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,I put my order in at Amazon this morning, and just went back to see if they still had a copy in stock. I was surprised to find they now have 4. Also the price was different. I was sure it was Amazon both times, not one of their client companies, so it was a bit confusing.If you go to http://tinyurl.com/5wu5xo , over on the right is the "Find this book in a library" link that I used earlier. According to the information there, 15 editions of the book have been published. They show Amazon as a source for three of them. I suspect my two visits to Amazon landed at two different editions. I don't think the edition should matter much as to content, but if you go through your local library as Bob suggested, some editions may be easier for them to get than others. Just in case they ask. Regards,
Dan
I ran "The Wheelwright's Shop" on another search at both the library and Borders under title. Seems that these little computer thangy's are a bit sensitive and they kicked me out by omitting the ' coma in Wheelwrights as I just did. They just don't care if one is computer illiterate and old or not.
Give an old man a break would ya.. cyber-world. ha.. ha... ha.. ha..ha..
BTW.. both had it and it seems as Ray mentioned, it has been re-printed on quite a few occasions. I didn't see one as a revision.. so I would also guess as you that a publisher just had at the original copy.
Regards...
Sarge..
Mornin Sarge,
Just as a footnote to your message to Ray, you might want to recheck with the ligrary as they may have a lending from other libraries in Georgia. I think most state libraries around the country can do this. If the local library doesn't have what you are looking for they oftimes can get it from another one.
I've had really good success in NH where I live. I live in a little podunk town but the local library has all the states libraries as a resource.
Just a thought,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Excellent suggestion and worth a few minutes to take the shot, Bob.
Thanks sir...
Sarge..
Hey, what's this sir stuff!?
How many times did ya hear, "Don't call me sir, I work for a livin" in the military?
Ha, ha, ha,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Sarge,
I found it to be a fascinating read. George Sturt (not Stuart, maybe that's why the library couldn't find it?) confusingly, he also wrote under the name "George Bourne"--had been educated, and his interest was directed, toward being a school teacher. But his father's death in the late 1800's forced him instead to take over the family business, the wheelwright's shop, just at the time when the industrial revolution reached the little village where he lived. His interest in literature sparked him to keep a chronicle of both his education in the art and mystery of his late-adopted trade and the skills needed for the day to day operations, but also in the changes that overtook the business with the unstoppable advance of "progress".
Here's a sample of his style:
"Wooden hames (or haims) well, there had once been a demand for them in my shop. Cook knew how to make them; Hammond could go through all the detail involved in ironing them up. Moreover, we had a "pattern" of their shape- a thin lath of delicate curves, brown with age; proof enough, in itself, that of old the making of them had been a common task for skillful wheelwrights. More- I remember not only marking-out, by the pattern, and perhaps I helped saw, the stuff for a new pair of hames. The very toughest ash butt was good enough for them, and might give approximately the right turn- if the tree had been cut off low enough to contain an inch or two of the curve upward from the roots. Indeed, nothing else would suffice, so delicate and slender were the curves...But of course I could not have competed against the midland factoiries,with their steel or brass hames. The work was easily standardised; localised skill in it was unnecessary, and as far as I could see, the ready made article was really better than I could produce. None the less, it was well for workmen like Cook and Hammond that they were not dependent for a living on the demand for hames..."
The book was written in the 1920's after he'd sold the business and had a stroke. Sturt drew his account from journals he'd kept while running the shop.
My copy is a paperback by Cambridge University Press, 1993 Canto edition, ISBN 0 521 44772 0 But it has been in and out of print since the 20's when it was first published.
Ray
Thanks Ray, as I will run another search under Sturt. I do believe that the listing on Amazon did show Bourne in parenthesis. But if all else fails, Dan stated that Amazon did have two in stock and I will just get one with your reccomendation.
Regards...
Sarge..
J
Will Priddy's next book address some of the history of the migration of these craftsmen? This sounds like an interesting subject.
dan
dan,
My reference to his "next book" was wishful thinking. I have no idea whether he is currently planning to put his recent findings into a book; one can hope at least that they will turn up as an article in one of the chipstone series.
Ray
That's OK. I'm still saving for Gordon's book. I really want to get a copy. And another piece of wood and .....
dan
Ray,
I have had the occasion to meet Sumpter at his antique dealership in Alexandria. He has some really nice stuff in his store and I agree he loves his southern furniture (obviously a man of good taste). Cal
On topic, I don't get your point. This is artwork, not stereo equipment. The details really do matter here. And artwork tells us things. Sometimes things we don't want to hear. The best analogy I can come up with is that its like the difference between an original painting and a print. Both are beautiful, and the print can be an exact dimensional copy, but prints lack the textural evidence of a human hand. Its not like the client had a choice though. I don't think there's another firm that could handle this commission in under 10 years.Off topic, you just don't know anything about me. I can kinda see why you think what you think, say what you say. I just don't think of how everything effects me personally. My writing here, elsewhere, is really separate from me. So I couldn't care less if you put my posts on ignore. That has nothing to do with me. Adam
Adam,
The "real you" is a mystery to me (and perhaps also an art). Perhaps I have been over-vigorous in bashing your views, which seem driven by a Huge Ego and devoid of content other than knocking others and sneering down your long nose in a vain attempt to promote your self-claimed status as some kind of guru.
But I apologise if I've seemed to be wishing the real you ill-will. This is not the case - I want to give only your memes a battering, as they represent (to me) the epitome of high-handed nonsense from a self-appointed and empty Authority. Your posts are forever alluding to some arcane art & mystery - which remain mysterious and seems to lack all art. Your posts are reminiscent of my time suffering the noise of loud strings of meningless buzz-phrases, cod-theories and content-free obscure-speak from "consultants".
But you're right - I shouldn't let your awful Knots personality bring out my worst traits. I'm becoming worse than you! I'll just try to ignore your posts in future and cease trying to be some sort of silly personality-policeman.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
arcane art & mystery
I'm going to take a wild guess at what I believe Adam is referring to in his posts here. Ya I know, this will no doubt certainly be a wild one.
I have been doing a lot of reading about American Period Furniture (18th c. and before) recently and have often read words to the effect that the quality of furniture in those days had a lot to do with the proximity of the maker to urban areas of the country. To wit, the further away they were the less refined the pieces.
In other words makers pretty much made furniture with what resources (tools) they had at their disposal. Rural folks simply did not have access to the finely crafted tools of their urban counterparts.
Also, refinements in both tools and furniture took painfully long periods of time to migrate from urban to rural parts of the country as well. This led to a lot of furniture being made that was not considered to be refined by many standards held by others, especially those folks from city/urban parts of the country.
Furniture styles also were effected likewise and were profoundly effected by the sociology dynamics of the times. Urnbanites moving to America did not typically inhabit rural parts of the country so skills were greatly affected as well. Needs of the times came into play as well.
I'm sure there are those far more eloquent than I who can shed more light on what I've attempted to say.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
" the quality of furniture in those days had a lot to do with the proximity of the maker to urban areas of the country. To wit, the further away they were the less refined the pieces."I think this is incorrect and also not what I was saying. IIRC, there is a publication called "Country Furniture" which is an assemblage of papers from a Winterthur conference that discusses this very issue. I think the consensus is that one can't identify country furniture based on its quality. They certainly had different markets which may have led the rural makers to build certain items. What I'm talking about is that our definition of quality certainly isn't exhibited in the finest urban pieces. Our values were not theirs. In the video of Irion's factory Charles posted, we could see a drawer bottom slid in from the back. This may be a better design but it wasn't their design. Like Gene Landon, I prefer to see the "warts and all" construction of 18th c furniture for many reasons: It reminds us they were real, imperfect people, just like us. And it encourages woodworkers like you to try it.The idea that these pieces are "perfect" is something sellers have put forth. Furniture scholars and every conservator will tell you (and quickly) otherwise. I think the reason these pieces have lasted 200 or 300 years is not due to their superb construction but rather that their owners had the cash to pay for their repairs. Joints and glue used also make them easy to repair, which has certainly helped their longevity.Adam
Hi Adam,
Just last nite I heard Sumpter Priddy give a talk in which he illustrated that rarest of things- a piece of furniture both signed and dated- from Shepherdstown, WVA, that was of a design that predated its appearance in any of the city centers. The maker was a Scot who had recently arrived in this country from London, and apparently wasted no time in showing off his abilities to the landed gentry around and about his new home. Mr Priddy also mentioned the use of a name for a furniture form (was it "bureau"?) in one of the rural VA papers, that predated any such in the large cities' papers by a year or more. Immigration patterns of craftsmen, especially into the South, and the influence of their previous training on the work they produced once here, is an area of study just now being explored.
Not having seen the video, I can't comment on that but drawer bottoms slid in from the back are not at all unusual on much of the furniture that comes thru my shop. I'm thinking drawer sides and fronts grooved, with backs held up to be flush with the top of the grooves in the sides. The bottom bevelled on three edges, often glue-blocked in place as well as nailed to the back. I've read the Newport drawers were constructed differently, and have seen English pieces with drawer bottoms glueblocked into rabbetted sides.
Ray
Ray, yo mouth sho is Priddy.
Edited 4/3/2008 1:35 pm ET by BossCrunk
Yes, Newport drawer bottoms are different. For example, on small drawers, as in Pembroke tables or card tables by John Townsend, the bottom has grain running front to back, that is nailed directly to the drawer sides and to a rabbet in the drawer front. (All the ones I've seen have split). Larger drawers as on casegoods do run the grain across the width of the drawer and are attached to the drawer side, though some appear to be sandwiched between the side and a hardware runner. I don't know if the runner was part of the original design or a repair as the bottom became worn. I haven't had an opportunity to see the drawer bottoms on any Goddard Townsend case goods in person.
The front to back orientation is fairly typical of Newport, Providence, and Philadlephia. They all nailed their bottoms up from underneath. Long grain runners were typical and there are a few different flavors of these. Newport builders feathered the edge and applied a beveled wear strip, which is sometimes segmented.I've never seen a piece of 18th c furniture with grooved drawer sides for a beveled panel but I believe they exist. I thought the piece in the video was a philadelphia piece but i was mistaken.Adam
Adam,
Here ya go. The large drawer is from a slant-front desk, the smaller from a chest of drawers. Normally I'm seeing the grain run the narrow way. That is, front to back on drawers like the littler one, and side to side on the larger.
Ray
What's the age and provenance of the piece Ray? Looks like pine secondary wood. I've seen a lot of drawers made this way. They just weren't 18th c drawers. This matters. We don't see much pine used as a secondary wood in Philly. Mostly white cedar. I just ran across a piece that had oak as a secondary. But the piece had a paper trail back to a philly maker (I forget who it was). I think you guys who restore old pieces are a fantastic resource for stuff like this. I hope you photograph old pieces you see. I had my hands on a crumbling book case probably owned by James Fenimore Cooper (who lived near me for some time). I didn't think to get pictures of it. Stupid.Adam
Adam,
The large drawer is from a desk and bookcase built in Winchester Va. It is part of a group that came from the Frye-Martin shop or shops, that worked from mid 1700's thru early 1800's. This piece is likely from 1810 or so. The construction of the drawers is identical to others in the Queen Anne style I've examined that are dated to 1790 or so, built for a house outside Winchester that has a stone mortared into the brick with that date. Walnut, with yellow pine and tulip poplar. The construction of this group of furniture is pretty consistant throughout.
The smaller drawer is from perhaps a slightly earlier date, 1790-1800. Best to say Shenandoah Valley, and let it go at that, as its pedigree has been lost along the way. The chest of drawers has some inlay, and French feet, but lipped drawer fronts, and a molded edge top. All poplar secondary, walnut primary, stoutly constructed.
I'm aware of the sea change that took place in drawer construction when the joined furniture of the pilgrim century, with its side hung supports and nailed rabbeted corners, gave way to cabinet makers case goods with solid ends and dovetailed corners. But are you saying that drawer construction changed again when Queen Anne and Chippendale designs gave way to federal ones? I haven't seen that myself.
I'm wondering if the laying of bottoms onto the edges of sides, or into rabbetted edges- grain front to back, vs sliding into grooves- grain side to side, might reflect a craft tradition of the makers that extends back to their country of origin. That is Scots or Irish vs English, or German or Continental vs British. Seems that grooved drawer sides are a lot more common in the South, and perhaps New England, than in RI and Phila. Maybe it was Quaker thing.
Ray
I really don't know much about Southern Furniture. I always suspect that there is no such thing. Those builders were probably immigrant builders who reflected their origins like Thomas Elfe. I don't see Elfe as a Southern Gentleman. He was a London trained, tea sipping, wig wearing, Tory. I think to use Myrna Kaye's term southern furniture and regionalism in general is "dealer speak". (Don't miss her scathing review of my favorite book "American Furniture of the 18th Century" in Chipstone.)Back to drawers: I hate to say this but it might be a regional thing. I only see nailed up bottoms in Philly pieces from 1700-1790. I surveyed every piece in the Philadelphia Museum of Art and some that were not on display. Every piece had similar drawer construction. It appeared to me that they were riving drawer parts and possibly using roof shingles made by someone else. It may be that this sort of construction is found in cities with rapidly expanding populations (said differently, this IS true of the 3 cities I mentioned). So it could be that the builders simply took advantage of readily available materials. The average 18th c roof shingle is rarely longer than 2' which would make them impossible to use side to side in large case pieces. In observing these drawer bottoms, I also noted that very few were cracked or showed evidence of repair. In my shop, I've found that secondary wood really adds to the cost of a piece. There's a lot of wood in a drawer. And if I add full dustboards, the weight and cost of the wood in a piece really skyrockets. This may have been a factor in chosing drawer construction methods.I think we've had this conversation before Ray.Adam
Uh, Adam,
"There's no such thing as Southern furniture... It may be a regional thing. " Are you a little conflicted?
Since at least the '30's, furniture built in the south has been dis-respected, or at best, mis-attributed to the north or to England. Not to worry, we in the South are used to that. Add to that the dispersion of southern material culture as a result of the tumult and poverty following the Civil W..er the late unpleasantness, it is only in the last 50 or so years that interest and scholarship in southern furniture has been taken seriously. While it is true that many makers in the southern colonies were immigrants, is this not true of their northern counterparts? At the same time it is hard to dismiss regional characteristics as entirely dealerspeak. When one sees a Newport shellback chair, it is hard to mistake it for its Philadelphia counterpart. Ditto for Boston, Wethersfield, Williamsburg, Winchester, or Charleston.
I'm inclined to agree that the availability of stock may at least once have had something to do with drawer grain orientation. The front to back bottoms I've looked at often are made up of glued up panels of narrower billets. Maybe that indicates limited stock, maybe it indicates a preference for edge grain. Maybe it indicates "That's how I was taught to do it, back in the old country where wide boards were limited, and I just have kept on doing it, because it works for me." And side to side bottoms are mostly wide boards. Still, that doesn't account for the practice of rabbetting sides vs grooving them. There are examples of both grain orientations, associated with both rabbets and grooved sides. Maybe it was just individual preference.
The use of dustboards or not, like the orientation of grain in drawer bottoms I suspect has antecedents in the European practices that the makers brought over with them. I don't know if the Brits have tried to tease these sort of variations out-- that is whether there has been much research into Welsh, vs Irish, vs Scotttish, vs East Anglian vs Lancastrian craft techniques. My guess is that a lot of what we are nit-picking at, has its origins across the water. "We've always done it like this" carries a lot of weight in shop practice, in the shops I've worked in.
Perhaps you've heard the story about the young bride who, upon cooking her first Easter ham, asked her husband to cut off the hock end. Asked why he needed to do that, she replied, "My mother always cuts off the hock." Later, she asked her mom about cutting off the ham hock. "Well, your grandma always had grand-dad cut off the hock, so I always got your father to do it, too." When they got around to asking Grand-ma, she said, "The roaster I used to have, was too little to hold the whole thing, so I got Earl to cut off the little end. Now I have a bigger roaster, so I cook the whole thing."
Cheers,
Ray
Yes, saying there is no Southern furniture might well be fighting words at the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. Certainly the Sumpter Priddy III introduction to Wallace Gusler Furniture of Williamsburg and Eastern Virginia 1710-1790 makes the case for a significant Southern furniture, as do Ronald L. Hurst and Jonathan Prown in Southern Furniture 1680-1830, a later publication of the CW Foundation.
Of course the apparent preferences for "neat and plain" furniture among the Southern elite may in some degree account for their funiture being slighted by history. Frankly, to my eye the Galt Desk and Bookcase no. 142 in Hurst-Prown, or figure 82 in Gusler could have been among the pieces reproduced for the exibition.
Steve,
Fightin' words, indeed. There is a story floating around, about a lecture given by Joseph Downs, back in the 50"s wherein he stated, "There was no period furniture of any note built south of Baltimore," (to that effect, I am not quoting directly). A little southern lady queried, during the Q &A session afterwards, whether he'd made that statement out of prejudice, or ignorance. He had the presence of mind to plead ignorance.
Ray
No such thing as Southern Furniture?
Even lowly North Carolina had a great cabinetmaking tradition (must have been misplaced Yankees, right?). Perquimans County, Edenton, and Roanoke had prolific furniture production, with builders such as Thomas White, the Sharrocks, and the W.H. Cabinetmaker. The furniture built there never approached the North in fancy ornamentation, but the workmanship was "neat and plain" and first rate.
Cal
"Plain and Neat" was "in style" in the American South, but it was NOT a "Southern style". "Plain and Neat" was an English style, produced by Englishmen who settled in the South. There's a big difference there.In the years leading up to the Revolution, "Plain and Neat" was in style in England. Southern planters did lots of business with England and kept pace with English styles, traditions, etc. They purchased furniture from England in fair quantities. Southerners demanded domestic builders to keep pace with English firms. Plain and Neat is not a Southern style. Its a style that was "in style" in the South. There may be Southern styles. But "Plain and Neat" is not one.Adam
That is not the point. It's merely that is the more ornate pieces that are put on 20th and 21st century masterpiece lists.
It's certainly possible to trace British or European origins or influences in all of the regions. Frankly, I don't seen as much difference between being "in style" in the South and a "Southern style" as being as as meaningful a difference as you. In Newport and Philadelphia, Boston or Hartford what is produced depends heavily on the interaction between what customers want and how cabinet makers are trained.
Adam,
Right. Just like "rococco" isn't a Philadelphia style; it was copied out of Chippendale's book.
Ray
Thanks for not allowing dismissal of no such thing as "southern furniture". And I agree that it derived from immigrants just as our northern counter-parts. Rare to see any Native American furniture these days coming from any region.
Again thanks as I know you have the "high end" covered and I seem to cover the "bottom of the barrel" with the "low end". Why at this very moment I am nearing completion of a Blue Ridge chest of drawers with left over copper tubing and bent 16 penny nails. ha.. ha...
Regards from Hazzard County, Georgia.. from a long line of immigrants that were sent to the "Penal Colony" under the guidance of Sir James Ogelthorpe by grant from King George II.
Ya'll come to see us if you get a chance...
Sarge..
Hi Adam/all,Drawers in British furniture used to be made with the grain lines in the timber running from front to back until about (1740?) After this time, training and fashion changed to have the grain running from side to side.Just a data point, for what it's worth. My memory's sketchy but I think that the above date is correct
Of course I know nothing about C18th furniture and its design. However, I was under the impression that a reproduction that seeks to reproduce everything in an old piece, including typical bad workmanship, dirt, cracks in the panels, etc. was essentially a fake.
Surely a reproduction is a reproduction of the design and materials, not an attempt to fool people who see it that it genuinely old?
****
There is a great scandal going on in the British antiques trade at the moment whereby various pottery manufacturers have bought up the trademarks of old and famous makers now long-gone. They make faithful copies of these pieces and put on the trade mark. Even an expert finds it difficult or impossible (without breaking the piece) to tell an old from one of these new ones. This is not illegal becaause....
The manufacturers escape censure as they sell the new items openly as new copies; and for not much money. However, hundereds of these things are turning up at antique fares and even in shops marked as the real thing. Even their sellers do not always realise they are essentially fakes........
*****
So - what is acceptably reproduction and what.....something else? I am asking, not making a judgement.
Lataxe
I don't know what is considered acceptable, but I seek to have my pieces mimic in every detail of the originals, when they were new (except for the exterior color). I don't try to reproduce aging; age is an elusive thing to reproduce. I couldn't bear to distress, what I worked so hard to make crisp and clean. Perhaps in the distant future with some genuine age, someone could be fooled.
I do take steps to see that serious flaws are not built into a piece, if it can be done in such a way as to not change the period details.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
It is an interesting problem to determine what degree of "faithfulness" to the original should be followed, without producing fakes. One important point in why people have hand made reproductions is the desire for them to fit into rooms where there are genuine period pieces. Factory furniture, even of the same style and dimensions stands out from across a large room.
There is also some benefit to follow the original joinery and materials. For me, who am purely a hobbyist, it is a way to better understand the material culture of the period. But reproducing the incidental flaws of interior appearances goes a bit far. They will have my own incidental flaws, and sometimes following original joinery will likely create problems down the road. For that matter, instead of laboring to reproduce pit saw marks to leave on unfinished surface, it would be more in the spirit of the original intent to leave planer ripples and circular saw burns on unseen interior surfaces. Yet, I can't bring myself to do that--it's too jarring to my modern sensibilities.
As far as the European and British influence on American regional and rural style I think there has been a fair amount of study along those lines. Stephen Kirk comes to mind.
Steve,
Who is Stephen Kirk? I've heard of John Kirk, but not Stephen.
Ray
He's the product of a faulty memory (mine), and the disorganization of moving into a new house so that I couldn't lay my hands on my copy of American Furniture: Understanding Style, Construction, and Quality by John T. Kirk that is somewhere around here.
Steve,
Gotcha; him, I'm familiar with.
Thanks,
Ray
Adam, Bob, Lataxe, et al -
Let's cut Adam some slack, after all the man plays a mean harpsichord in an 18th century.... ummm .....what should I call it? Anyway, had red lantern in the winder.
Grrrriiinnnnnn!
(Actually, its Adam at Colonial Williamsburg and he DOES play the harpsichord quite well!)
Mike
You said it just fine.John
Adam you enjoy the luxury of spouting off about so much while living in total ignorance. So much to cover, where do I start?
Reproduction furnituremaking is not artwork. Look up the defintion of the word "art" and you will understand. This type of work is usually referred to as craft and the maker is an artisan, not an artist.
The choosing of pieces of furniture for to be constructed and put in ones house is not governed by rules that you set forth. Just as when you go to IKEA and buy a piece because you like it John chose the pieces because he appreciated (liked) the pieces. That is usually the only rule that should govern what furniture one puts in their house. Obvious considerations of cost one can usually factor in for themselves. it really sounds like you are upset to know that someone has enough money to build such a beautiful house and fill it with so many nice pieces of furniture. Is it really a surprise to you that wealth like this exists? Come to Pennsylvania, there are a lot of houses like that out here, trust me.
So you think you know something about how furniture should be built...or you object to drawer bottoms being scrub planes? I guess you shouldn't buy reproduction furniture done the way it was done originally then. Secondary surfaces were always done in this manner, plain and simple. It doesn't make the craftsman inferior for following the construction methods he was taught, it was simply the method of the time, with some variation. My suggestion would be that when you make your next highboy you plane your draw bottoms, then you scape them, then orbital sand them to #180, and follow it up with hand sanding of same. Don't forget to french polish when you get all the dust off, okay?
Lastly, do you really think you know anything about the Irion shop? Please, you've never been there and you never will. You want to sound like you know something but that's the closest to accuracy you care to get. This furniture "factory" is an old hardware store in a town with a grocery store, a lumber yard and a post office. The elevator in the building has no motor but runs on weights. They have the basics in machines with a handfull fo big machines, nothing factory like. They have built themselves over the years and have acquired a tremendous knowledge of period furniture. They have struggled and survived in an industry that depends on a clientel having desposable income to spend on custom furniture. You want to assume that all their clients are the super rich but I can assure you they depend on many clients that are not like John, some not even close. Irion is a company of superb craftsmen that deserve everything they have made for themselves, but they certainly don't deserve your ignorant derision. Visit them if you dare and see their simple shop filled with the solid benches and excellent hand tools of gifted craftsmen.
John
"Reproduction furnituremaking is not artwork."I agree. That's what I don't like about it. I wanted to find something you wrote that I agree with. That's it. I agree 100%, and I've made it my mission in life to change that fact. Check out my latest blog and you'll see exactly how passionately I feel about it; http://www.artsandmysteries.comAdam
Lataxe, Now this, Adam it is tough being you,
Adam,
I took a few minutes to look over your website and blog...is the computer an 18th century tool? I feel much more educated about where you are coming from and what the basis is for your frustrations. I've also seen the movie; I think I had a better seat then you. Here in Chester County there are many very good furnituremakers frustrated by trying to compete with Irion and they try to badmouth the shop too. Truth of the matter is it is very easy to read between the lines and know that they are jealous and frustrated with dealing with "the big guy." Irion had a fantastic relationship with Winterthur, their conservators frequently visiting the shop, and Irion's craftsmen being able to examine and measure any piece in the collection. They did restoration for the best antique shops of the Philadelphia area, seeing valuable originals on a daily basis. Irion also developed excellent resoucres and stockpiles of lumber, often having more than the local small wood dealors.
Can I guess that a small New Jersey craftsman like yourself has to struggle to compete with all the Philadelphia area craftsmen like Irion, usually failinig. I guess it helps to find some way to knock them down.
If you really knew their work, and period work, you would know that finishes vary and Irion's taste for the finish has never been a shiny finish, quite the opposite. there are many pieces for which the gloss finish is appropriate, not the case for the W&M highboy you show in your web site. Many pieces the Irion shop has produced did not have this finish you are so critical of...their Octararo tall chest and other Chester County pieces are perfect examples. Look at all the painted pieces on their web site, ah, but you chose not to be informed.
It is great that you chose to build the furniture the way you do but you need to remember, that is for you. It's not the right way, nor are Irion's methods the wrong ones...they just aren't the same methods. I once read about some folk that made birch bark canoes with a hook knife, a few other tools and a mess of pine tar. This was the way to make a canoe, tradition. I think that is the biggest load of hooey I have ever heard. The galoot mentality is great...for the galoot...but as soon as he is stupid enough to tell the world "my way is the right way", yours is wrong, he gets bumped up in line for moron of the year. We all could have fun pointing out that the shop he works in wasn't built with 18th century tools, his lumber wasn't felled with an axe, probably wasn't pit sawn, and even the tools he made himself were made with 20th century steel and other 20th century implements. The list could go on. In the long run most who won't use electricity in business do it because they want to say "Look at me, I'm different, I'm better." You ain't.
Movie criticism is not based on whether we can make the movie better but on whether or not we were entertained, whether or not the movie maker could have done a better job. The idea that the customer should have spread his needs out among the areas other reproduction shops is absurd. If that is a suggestion you would give a customer than you are very bad at customer service and a very bad businessman. Your job in both respects is not to give your customer more running around to do, more personalities to deal with. Your job is not to give money to your competitors. Believe me, if Irion had done this there are many shops that would have gotten the bids...many shops...before he got to you and decided you weren't what he was looking for. Of all the hair brained things you've written on this subject that one is the silliest.
Now this is art.
John
Yeah, I wouldn't have gotten this job, wouldn't have gotten to bid on this job. I don't have the skills or productivity to compete for work at this level. And I think this particular job was contracted before I was in business. Irion has been around for a long time and they have a big shop, maybe the biggest of all the high end reproduction furniture shops. So no, I have no elusions to this job at all. I'm not jealous of NBA players either. But I appreciate your unintended flattery. I'm just not in this league.All I can do for you is underline what I've already said: The question I read was "Did the customer choose the best?" My answer is "not really" or at least, the collection has a "give me the best (whatever that is)" Donald Trump feel to it. I would have chosen a single region for example, exploring George III more deeply perhaps, or based my choices on inventory data, a reproduction of the entire Cadwalader collection would have been interesting for example. As to execution, Irion, like other big repro shops, really plays up the hand work they do, but the pieces don't show it in person, possibly for the reason you yourself state. Folks who don't use electricity can't stay in business long. Or it could be that they actually believe this is how the pieces looked. I find this hard to believe, especially if they have the access you say they have. I don't have access like that in Winterthur, and its very plain to me what the character of a hand made piece is.You said something about my shop not being different or special? Let me correct you there. I may not be able to compete with all the top furniture makers, but I know most or all of them and I feel I can safely say you're wrong. My shop IS different and IS special because there are no power tools in it. I believe I'm the only commercially active reproduction cabinetmaker who works solely with period tools. This is not a neener neener thing. But it can help explain the different points of view. When you have a shaper and a table saw and a drum sander in your shop, your reality (and your work and your product) is going to be fundamentally different from my own.I think you had a few good points (maybe) but you could have made them better without the personal content. This is not Fox news. You can disagree vehemently without personal attacks. This is a skill I think our society is lacking. I don't dislike Irion. I'm not trying to be nasty. I'd probably like the client if I met him. I'm critiquing both, without excoriating either. Adam
Irion does have a pretty big shop, probably like the bigger shops in Philadelphia in the 1700s.I know Chippendale's shop England employed dozens of people and was much bigger than Irion's shop is today - in square footage, number of employees, and production too.Is there something about a shop with employees you find disturbing?
No no. Why would you ask that? I talked about the difference between my piddly shop and Irion's large one and how we weren't in the same league. Did you need me to say that again? Look this doesn't humiliate me guys. I'm proud of what I do. I'm proud of almost all of my work! :)Adam
Adam wrote:
"I'm proud of almost all of my work!"Adam's posts in this thread are fascinating! I wonder how many pieces he has actually completed, since his website doesn't show them (he's protecting the privacy of his clients), compared to how many pieces the average 18 c. apprentice completed? I'm mean this question in all seriousness! Perhaps some master could come forward, judge Adam's pieces, and name him a journeyman.Of course, the apprentice had the guidance of a master, an advantage that Adam hasn't had, hence the obsession with "mysteries" (It's all a mystery when one isn't being taught, right?) His shop really is unique -- how many other weekend woodworkers have their own magazine column? I don't know any except for Adam.There are lots of aspects of the uniqueness of Adam's shop that should really be brought to light to the public, who are really interested to hear more --- like lumber selection. Gathered from pics from his blog, for instance, it seems that he uses pre-surfaced lumber. I doubt that the folks at Irion have figured out what a time-saver that can be! Also, on some forum or other, Adam wrote about picking through the lumber at a home store to find quartersawn stuff. Obviously the folks at Irion are not as advanced in their knowledge of stock selection. I'm sure the list could go on and on. I'd like to know more. I'm hoping that Popular Woodworking will devote an entire issue to his work, and include commentary by Larry Williams, Don McConnell, and Charles Stanford, among others. Perhaps FWW could lend PopWood Lataxe, just for that one issue, to comment on Adam's mastery of the written word.
Thoroughly entertained,
-Andy
"Perhaps some master could come forward, judge Adam's pieces, and name him a journeyman."Funny you should mention, Check my latest blog entry and website. Pretty sure this has been done! To my knowledge when I made the cut in 2005, Eugene Landon was one of the judges. There aren't masters anymore because there aren't guilds here in the US. But I think he's as close to an 18th c master as one can get. Speaking of which, you guys seem to think what I'm saying is new or unique. Gene Landon wrote an article for FWW years ago published in FWW's "Best of Period Furniture Making". I think you'll find I'm a devotee of his point of view. Also if you look at the chair he recently finished in FWW you'll see what I believe is a good representation of 18th c work. Look carefully at the details of the shoe molding. A shoe cut on a shaper wouldn't look like that.Hey this has been fun. I feel like I'm in a Monty Python skit and went to the door marked insults by mistake!I'm out. You guys have the last word. Adam
Still doesn't answer the question, Adam, of how many pieces of furniture you have made. Without a master to answer to, you've produced a lot of smoke and mirrors. Your skill does not even come close to what an 18th century apprentice would be able to do after the first two or three years. I think that it is embarrassing that Early American Life lists you in their directory -- it reflects a disrespect, or total ignorance of, what the apprentice-journeyman-master model meant for traditional crafts before it disintegrated in this country. By the way, "guilds" (in the historical sense, related to economic control) no longer exist in France, Germany, etc., but apprenticeships are still taken seriously, and one has to meet certain standards before one becomes a journeyman, let alone a master. Tsk tsk tsk, shame on you for believing that the EAL listing is today's equivalent. I think that it's ironic that you attribute meaning to EAL's directory listing, whereas you are clearly hesitant to place photos of your work on your website -- are you afraid of critique?In the interest of my study of the erosion of craftsmanship in this country, I'd love to see a portfolio posted online of the work that was judged by EAL for which your were awarded "mastery" of your craft. I'm sure others here would also like to see it. I am serious.
-Andy
Edited 4/20/2008 7:00 pm ET by VTAndy_
Adam wrote:
"As to execution, Irion, like other big repro shops, really plays up the hand work they do, but the pieces don't show it in person, possibly for the reason you yourself state."Huh? Is the carving done by machine, by that new Sears computer-guided carver?
Adam,
Didn't mean to flatter you, sorry if I did. Also didn't mean to get "personal" but it ruffles my feathers that you attack Irion, and attack is the right word, while pretending to be informed. I don't think you have 1/10th the knowledge of period furniture that Irion does, and I don't think you have the knowledge of Irion that you say you do...at least not sufficient to say the things you do.
You go on about the Irion "factory" in an obvious attempt to position them beneath you. This is low and adolescent. Their shop is not a factory and nothing about it resembles one. Use of that term makes you nothing more than a liar and deserving of condemnation.
I think the customer chose what he felt were the best. Considering he was footing the bill and putting them in his house, I'd say he chose correctly.
"As to execution, Irion, like other big repro shops, really plays up the hand work they do, but the pieces don't show it in person, possibly for the reason you yourself state. Folks who don't use electricity can't stay in business long. Or it could be that they actually believe this is how the pieces looked. I find this hard to believe, especially if they have the access you say they have. I don't have access like that in Winterthur, and its very plain to me what the character of a hand made piece is."
Yes, Irion uses more 20th century tools than you do, this doesn't diminish their work. This doesn't diminish the skills of the craftsman. If I bandsaw out the rough cuts of a blockfront drawer front before planing down to the line what atrocity have I committed? Where have I sabotaged the character of the piece. Do you think John Townsend would have said "No!" if I brought a bandsaw to his shop? (He might have said where do I plug it in.) Yes, there are many pieces that show flaws, some of which are attributed to the beating the piece took in the 300 years since it was made. In some cases the craftsman might have been less skilled, didn't care, had a poorly lit shop or just plain didn't see the flaws as flaws. I see no reason to reproduce flaws and I don't see a lack of flaws as a bad thing. Yes, Irions shop uses jointers, planers, power saws and air driven orbital sanders. They know period pieces and know what they should look like. There is nothing wrong with the use of power tools to achieve a good clean surface, as there is nothing wrong with a good clean surface.
No, not Fox news but if you are going to attack Irion with such obvious ignorance then I will defend them; and I will point out how silly you sound in the process. If this hurts your feelings, c'est la vie.
John
This topic had great potential at the beginning...
Now, with all the personal attacks.....it's getting a bit childish and completely BORING listening to people attack others for their expressed opinions.
Moderator.....I say take it off the site!
Dave
Edited 4/20/2008 2:58 pm by bluejay
I suppose the fact that some of us find it interesting and entertaining and occasionally informative matters not?
Is someone there forcing you to click on this thread and read it?If you don't like it don't look at it. Pretty simple eh?"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
One would think that at some point......they would discuss the topic. If not, isn't that what the Cafe is for?
Just a thought.
Edited 4/20/2008 4:16 pm by bluejay
Dave,
I understand your point but I do not like to see Adam trying to tear Irion down, especially considering the quality of their work. It is obvious to me that much of what he pretends to know about them is based on one or two encounters. No matter the number he is misrepresenting them and their work. His description of their "factory" is a bold faced lie...I should know I did a lot of the renovation work on the building before it became their new shop.
Irion Co. is not here to defend themselves from lies and misrepresentation so I will, plain and simple. I'm sorry if this detracts from the spirit of the conversation you want to pursue. Please skip the posts if you see they are off topic. We know there are many posts here that are off topic, I've read a bunch.
Please, let me know what you think of their work. I worked for Irion Co. about 18 years ago. It was a fantastic learning experience in both woodworking and 18th century furniture. They have been lucky enough to build a fantastic assortment of pieces for their customers. This part of Pennsylvania is chock full of furniture history and people willing to spend money on it, which gives a shop like Irion the opportunity to go and research great pieces. There are a good number of excellent shops in this area, many staffed by ex Irion employees. I don't know if there are many areas like this on the east coast in terms of the number of quality repro shops.
John
Edited 4/20/2008 4:43 pm ET by JTBark
Quote:"Lastly, I would have chosen a craftsman to build that furniture who would use that money to further research the period and give something back to the artisan community. Not a high end furniture factory."I don't know about "giving back" but from their YouTube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPOVPn0UqSQ, I wouldn't classify Irion as a "factory".
"But I think this customer could have done a better job furnishing their mansion."Now, that made me shake my head in amazement.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...Edited 4/4/2008 2:56 pm by PeterDurand
Edited 4/4/2008 2:56 pm by PeterDurand
Peter,
Yeah of course! At least he could have bought the originals. What a cheapskate he must be.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Simply stated, if I were shelling out this kind of cash for a repro, I'd want original looking details, tool marks, profiles. I know a dozen craftsmen who can do that kind of work today. Its really not asking that much.Take a look at the attached picture. Notice the reflected light of the edge, the changing size of the fillet. The dovetails aren't even all that great. This drawer came from a chest that looks very similar to one copied by the firm in question. I'd estimate its value at $.25M. AdamP.S. This drawer is a little different than what I was writing about earlier in that it's rabbeted flush with the top pin (the drawer is upside down) then the bottom is nailed on then the runners are applied with glue flush with the bottom (upper in the picture) edge of the drawer.
If a particular craftsman, say a guy working now building reproductions, is able to cut tight, accurate dovetails almost everytime as a matter of course then that's what he should do. In the drawer shown you have virtually no way of knowing who cut that joint - it could have been done by somebody just moving up the ladder in whatever shop the piece came out of.
Putting in details that represent a degree of skill less than one actually possesses is ersazt woodworking to the Nth degree.
There are tons of guys around who can cut half-blinds on lipped drawers quickly and leave a gap on may one out of fifty corners they do.
I agree. In this case, its a machine thing. In others, its a time thing. Almost anyone can make a lipped drawer. The question is, can you (impersonal) make one in an hour? Your scenario, a guy moving up the skills ladder, is only one of many possibilities. The master of that shop could have made that drawer as fast as he could and felt that drawer was good enough. It would be good enough for me.I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but WHATEVER. It is what it is. This is the drawer of a bona fide masterpiece. We're talking about copying masterpieces. This is one. This is what this furniture looks like.Again, not to be snippy at all, but I wonder how many people both here and reproduction furniture makers get to see pieces like this up close or at all. The Sack's were selling furniture. Winterthur books don't show this sort of thing on purpose. They both seek/sought to make the furniture into something its not.Let me just say this now and I'll deny it later: This furniture isn't always that well built. It looks nice from the outside until you get close. Just like our Founding Fathers. Its a wonderful life lesson for the curious and open minded. Adam
Adam,
I have found most customers see the idealized version of period furniture, and that is what they want.
I've been hauled on the carpet for my supposedly ill fitting dovetails. I have had some questions about the quality of the hardware I use (Londonderrry Brasses) they complained that they weren't symmetrical and had file marks visible on the face. Just recently a customer told me he wasn't too happy with the sideboard I made a couple of years ago, because I had left exposed secondary wood under the recessed center cupboard section. He only told me this after he had seen the original which was done the same way (he's happy now). Another customer didn't like that I used a secondary wood for the pull out slides on a desk. These things are my fault; I should have explained things better and I do now.
One of my favorite parts of period furniture is the contrast between the highly finished exterior and the rather crude interior.
On the drawer construction details. I was surprised to learn from you that the grooved front and sides with beveled bottom wasn't typical of Philadelphia furniture. I looked through a few books and found references to the method you describe and to the way I assumed was universal by the Queen Anne period (grooved). One such piece is catalog number 16 in your favorite book.
I have not done many pieces of Philadelphia furniture, but now I know of an alternate way to make the drawers; I'll just have to find some riven stock.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Adam, I was just trying to ascertain whether you were advocating cutting poor joints, for the sake of a copy, even if one is capable of much better all the while working at a reasonable pace.
On my admittedly meager attempts at reproduction work I'm pretty much only able to copy dimensions and profiles from the sources I have in my library. I guess I probably end up with some idealized version. I must confess that I've committed the unspeakable blasphemy of planing both surfaces of drawer sides and bottoms. On a typical drawer bottom I guess it took an extra five to ten minutes or so to put a jack on it and maybe a smoother pass or two. The old blokes must have really been working under some unbelievable time pressure to feel like they needed to leave 'em untouched. I've sort of situated myself not to have that kind of knife at my throat.
Doing a little mental artithmetic leads me to the conclusion that not planing secondary surfaces might save, at most, a few hours or so. It doesn't seem to me to be an economically significant amount of time on hand wrought work in any century, yet they did what they did nevertheless.
On pieces where I've paid little attention to the secondary surfaces I haven't always been pleased with how well the piece knocked together at glue up. I seem to have lost the time at this stage that I had supposedly gained during stock preparation.
I'm sure the fault lies in my overall technique.
Edited 4/5/2008 11:53 am ET by BossCrunk
"Adam, I was just trying to ascertain whether you were advocating cutting poor joints"YES EXACTLY!Look for that article in your favorite woodworking magazine. HOW TO SCREW UP YOUR JOINERY: 10 fool proof ways to look like an 18th c apprentice.TIP #10, when sawing dovetails, close your eyes and use the "force"TIP #7, dead blow hammer review. I prefer this 5lb sledge to all the dead blow hammers reviewed. Not only does the joint go together, it actually mashes the wood together.TIP #3 Sharp chisels are for sissies. I prefer a cold chisel for mortise and tenon work. I mean, hey, its a chisel and its a lot cheaper than that one that Joel sells.I love it. And hey FWW, hands off! I thought of it first!!You guys have to fill in the rest. I have to get to work.AdamEDIT This was meant as a joke. I know sarcasm doesn't always translate on the internet.Edited 4/5/2008 8:58 am ET by AdamCherubini
Edited 4/5/2008 9:00 am ET by AdamCherubini
It's easy to get the impression that you'd be extremely disappointed if you happened to execute a piston-fit mortise and tenon joint and/or a gapless dovetail joint.
It is possible from time to time to stumble upon perfection. It usually delights me to no end when it happens in my shop.
Edited 4/5/2008 11:12 am ET by BossCrunk
Right. I just hear a lot about perfection both in terms of the furniture I know and love and the builders contemporary and historic who build these pieces. The original post certainly gave that impression. Its just not a very informed look at the product. It's almost the way a child sees his parents as perfect. It just ain't so, but one can learn to appreciate and love them as they are for what they are with an honest hard look. My experience is the same as Rob's. The high end furniture buyer wants perfection. The people buying "country" or "primitive" furniture want something else. Neither desire seem to come from intimate knowledge however. One of those Winterthur people i like to talk about recently saw one of my pieces in the flesh. I asked what she thought and she said "I love it, it's not shiny". You almost have to do shiny to sell. But that's not what the furniture looked like new. Rob and I are young enough to help educate our customers and hopefully move the market. Irion's customer could have talked to someone from Winterthur and they too could have helped move the market to a more nuanced version of american period furniture masterpieces. Guys this has been a great conversation. I have to get back to work. This is the sort of thread I think Asa and Anatole hoped for and I'm proud to be a part of. A very high level discussion. Thanks all.Adam
While I certainly don't believe in taking a half day to dovetail one drawer, I also don't buy into the notion that the joinery "looks too good" to be an accurate reproduction.
My own philosophy, lack or abundance of relative skills, as well the other constraints under which I might be working at a given point in time, are encapsulated in each piece I build. This was so for the 18th century boys as well.
Edited 4/5/2008 12:04 pm ET by BossCrunk
I have heard a very sad story told by Allan Breed of how, relatively early in his career, was stiffed by a client to refused to pay for (or return) for a set of ball and claw dining chairs because they were so regular that they "must" have been machine made. Of course Allan is a master of the ball and claw foot, demonstated a few years ago when he gave a demonstation of how they were carved at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, during the Townsend exibition where he carved one half in the style of John Townsend and the other in the manner of John Goddard.
Interesting. I would have salvaged said commission by inviting the client to the shop and carving one just like it.... right in front of his eyes.
If poorly fitted joints, hastily run mouldings, and irregularly carved feet are the essence of a masterpiece then I've been creating them for quite some time now.
It's sad that ONE of the techniques of dating a piece have now become a hallmark by which all, apparently, must be judged.
Edited 4/6/2008 7:58 am ET by BossCrunk
" If poorly fit joints, Hastily run mouldings ect....
Great line Boss , That was Funny.
Shiny depends on what period you actually mean. There is a fair amount of discussion about how originals were actually finished. Earlier pieces may have been simply linseed oil and wax, but shellac was advertised and available in the 18th century. Later periods brought more "shine." I think that in both painted furniture and "finished" furniture, a reflective surface was favored due to the very low levels of light in the 18th century home. I don't know that one can reliably say how pieces looked when delivered. Most people doing reproductions today shoot for a reproduction of how the piece looks now, which is almost certainly not the same. I would caution, however, that Winterthur is not necessarily the last word on period finishes. At the Philadelphia Museum of Art, the conservators DO use shellac, as do the Smithsonian conservators. Whether they believe in its total authenticity is a real question.
Boss,
I'm thinking that the lack of what we today might call proper dressing of interior parts of pieces might have something to do with the fact that they simply didn't show, so why bother.
Granted this process may not take an inordinate amount of time but who's to say that was the deciding factor?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
As I mentioned in another post, I believe the time savings is measured in hours not days. This might give an indication of just how busy these guys really were.
Edited 4/7/2008 10:05 am ET by BossCrunk
In much of the world, toilet and lavatory sink are generally in separate rooms (it's considered unsanitary to have them in the same room). Why do I bring this up? Just as most of us in the US wouldn't think twice about seeing a toilet and sink in the same room, I think that the craftsmen of the day didn't think twice about the "unfinished" look of the backs and insides of their cabinets. It's not that they didn't have time--it just wasn't on their radar, so to speak. It's only when we apply our own present-day sensibilities that we view those backs and insides as being unfinished.
-Steve
As good an explanation as any...
Edited 4/7/2008 11:56 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
This whole thing is rather silly to me. When was the last time you saw a glue block with finish applied to it? Is a glue block not part of a piece?
The tail is wagging the dog.
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It's completely silly. It truly is. Ultra rough secondary woods, riven shingles, crate lumber, etc. look silly on a reproduction IMO. It does start to border on the proffering of a fake instead of an honest reproduction.I wouldn't necessarily be above slapping a little varnish or other sealant on glue blocks (though I've never done this) since differential expansion and contraction of same is often blamed for joint failure.Better to just segment them (?). Probably.
Edited 4/7/2008 1:34 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
Here's a pic of a drawer that was in the secretarie that I found this past weekend. I'd been searching for original pieces made by local craftsmen and found this one.
The drawer bottom shows the vertical saw marks from the original stock from which it was made. Not sure of the date it was made but the sawmarks suggest to me that its sometime between 1840 to 1900 unless a pit saw was used which could make it earlier than that.
View Image
Also the pins used to attach the sides to the front instead of dovetails. The case parts were made from ash I believe and the secondary parts from either pine, fir or spruce.
If you get a chance take a look at another discussion about my Antique trip. Saw some interesting stuff.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That's relatively clean; anybody having done any handplaning at all knows it would take less than five minutes to take out those saw marks with a jack. I haven't met too many drawer bottoms in my shop that didn't need a touch of flattening - on both sides. You can nail on a bottom that has some warp, but you can't get them to fit (well at least) in a drawer in which you intend to trap the panel in grooves. If they're twisted, sumpns' gotta give somewhere - they'll be a rattle fit on one corner and a Dick's hatband fit on another.It's fun and interesting to note the manner of construction of early pieces with regard to secondary surfaces and parts, but it's quite another to become smitten with this whole issue to the point of distraction. Glad you're not.
Edited 4/7/2008 1:41 pm ET by BossCrunk
Tangential point, but related: how many carpenters do you hear say "Man, I can't wait to frame that whole house with my handsaws and hammers!"?
Both disciplines work with wood and tools. Both have practitioners that could be considered master craftsmen, and both produce works of beauty. But only in woodworking do I hear people talk about "that's the way they used to do it, so that's the way I'm gonna do it".
I'm probably missing the point, because there are many more differences than similarities between furnituremaking and carpentry. But it just strikes me that carpenters embrace the latest and greatest, and some furnituremakers can't bear progress. Maybe it's because you can sell someone the romance of fully hand-crafted furniture (and yes I understand that some things are indeed done better by hand), but the carpenter who pushes homebuilding circa 1776 will starve in no time.
In retrospect, this is a silly direction to take this conversation in, but why stop now.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
"In retrospect, this is a silly direction to take this conversation in, but why stop now."Love it!
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
In the house shown in the Irion commission article, who did the trim carpentry and how? All those moldings and railings etc. are might nice.
And by the way, a carpenter is not a carpenter - compare for example framing specialists versus finish carpenters.
I know; I was trying not to split hairs as I don't have many left. But even still, framer or trimmer, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who hand-saws exclusively or hand nails exclusively. It's not the fetish that it gets to be in the furnituremaking community.
Part of that may be the nature of the craft. There are plenty of hobbyist furnituremakers; I don't know of any hobbyist homebuilders (well, maybe Frenchy). Part of that may be the nature of the product. An expensive highboy is far more reasonable than a trophy home, so the suitably inclined can shop and pay for that level of execution (and they won't mind the wait, to boot). Rare, though, is the homeowner or homeowner-to-be bragging about how long it took to get their house or addition built. This guy (John in the article) is clearly an exception.
Agreed on the trimwork in that 35k sf manse; definitely jaw-dropping. I would suppose you could find someone willing to do period trim via period methods, but I suspect that even Irion used machines to mill their stock.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
While I understand your point, I have to say that from personal experience, carpenters aren't any less stuck in the mud than cabinetmakers (or anyone else, really). The difference is that the mud that carpenters are stuck in is only 40 years old, rather than 200 years old. In any occupation, it's only a small fraction of the practitioners that ever branch out and try something new.
-Steve
Good rebuttal, to which I'll offer this-how many carpenters do you know that refuse to use a nail gun? A circular saw?
I know carps can be just as hidebound in their methods, but when something truly speeds up their production, or makes them more efficient, those that refuse to use are probably those that are going out of business.
Generalizations, of course.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
I'm probably missing the point, because there are many more differences than similarities between furnituremaking and carpentry
Yup.
Rectilinear furntiture lends itself to the use of power all the way through the joinery stage. More complicated forms require substantial jigging for the joinery so we have the "modern" case of lumber four squared on premises with machines but a lot of handcut joinery in the more complicated examples. A lot of guys don't want to build jigs for one-off pieces.
I have a lot of respect for carpenters but as far as framing is concerned the joinery is all nailed butt joints (excluding timber framers and log house guys). Contrast this with the joinery in a substantial furniture commission. By all means nail the backboards on with a gun if you like. You might save twenty minutes. Are you going to nail the drawers together? They won't last. You going to nail the mouldings on or maybe attach them from inside? Maybe put them on dovetailed runners? How about the attachment of the top of a bombe' form? A tapered sliding dovetail seems to be a high-brow solution but you could just drive a bunch of nails through the mahogany top the lumber for which took six months to source.
Edited 4/7/2008 3:37 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I think that was kind of my point, in a way-using modern tools, a house can be up in 3 days. How long would that take if they were using only Disstons and Estwings?
Interesting sidebar, from my POV. Glad to see the Bogeyman is back.
EDIT and of course you added some salient points after I posted my reply, and they are well-taken. My entire hypothesis here is not that handwork is frivolous or a luxury; quite the opposite. I rather enjoy it. It's just that I find it curious that there's a subset of furniture makers who work by hand only because that's the way it was done centuries ago, while I would bet there's not a subset of carpenters (timber framers notwithstanding) building the way they did even 70 years ago, before power came to the jobsite.
Come to think of it, looking at some homes being built today, maybe they should.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Edited 4/7/2008 3:46 pm ET by JJV
Ther's a lot of prefab stuff doen in new homes in things like trusses. Cutting each stick (the way they used to) ups the price substantially. In other words, they may not forgo nail guns in favor of hammers, but there are custom builders out there that offer stick by stick construction and people willing to pay for it.
Of course. There's someone willing to pay for anything. I was just watching a show about a car show, and there's a maker who will custom build any one of their car models for you individually. Prices start at $250 k.
Even then, I would bet those home builders will cut their sticks with a circular saw (worm drive on the west coast, sidewinder on the east-now THERE'S an unending debate) over a handsaw.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
I think that was kind of my point, in a way-using modern tools, a house can be up in 3 days. How long would that take if they were using only Disstons and Estwings?
I'd guess the difference is mostly related to the building materials. With pre-cut studs and sheet goods maybe an extra three days or so I'd guess. The old boys had to put sheathing on and install subfloors and the roof deck board by board. Sheet goods make that a walk in the park.
I've seen an attic expansion done with lots of dormers and no circ. saws used and the blokes said it didn't slow them down much at all. Even kind of liberating I was told.
If the layout goes well putting the sticks together ain't that big a deal. They hire monkeys to do that. The guy walking around with the blueprints and the chalkbox snapping lines is what makes it all go like clockwork.
Edited 4/7/2008 4:32 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
One of the guys on Breaktime broke down the jobsite pecking order thusly:
There's the new kid. He carries a huge toolbox.
The foreman has everything he needs in his toolbelt.
The "old man" on the site can pack everything he needs in a small pouch.
The boss carries a cellphone.
Made me laugh.
You mention sheet goods vs. subflooring. That was another example I forgot about. Find me someone who says "Sure, let's use 6" T&G instead of Advantech. You guys could use the nailing practice.".
After I posted last I was thinking that there have to be experienced guys who could hand saw a 2x4 almost as fast as they could with a power saw. Just a hell of a lot more tiring.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Gotta tell 'ya that those little Stanley toolbox saws with a Japanese pattern tooth will blow through 2x material almost like it wasn't there. And you don't mind cutting sheetgoods with one either.
I've used them-they certainly are quick. Tough to gang-cut with, though. :-)
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Larry Haun would fire you before morning break if you showed up with one that's for sure.
Funny.
No flies on him, eh? I hope to be walking at his age; he's still framing.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
I call him Mr. Wormdrive.
Apropos for sure.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
"they'll be a rattle fit on one corner and a Dick's hatband fit on another."
Classic.Philip Marcou
Boss,
Dick's hatband?
Rob
Dear Evan: My late father was in the habit of using certain expressions that repeatedly cropped up in his conversation. In connection with unscrewing a rusty bolt, or with putting on a pair of trousers that had not grown at the same rate as his waistline, or occasionally with reference to someone who was reluctant to pay out money that he owed, Dad would say that the bolt, or the trousers, or the person, was "as tight as Dick's hatband". Who was Dick, and why was his hatband so close-fitting? -- Wallace Riley, via the internet.
By virtue of the sort of eerie coincidence that characterizes this column, I have uncovered, just yesterday, evidence of a nefarious plot among our nation's haberdashers. Upon returning from a shopping trip, I discovered to my horror that the trousers I had purchased, while supposedly the same size I have worn for years, did not fit. I'm no Einstein, but it seems clear to me that manufacturers have decided to cut corners by making waistbands smaller. It's an outrage.
You don't say where you grew up, but I'd hazard a guess that it was somewhere in the South, for "tight as Dick's hatband" is primarily a Southern expression here in the U.S. I say "here in the U.S." because, according to Robert Hendrickson's "Whistling Dixie, A Dictionary of Southern Expressions" (Pocket Books, $12.95), the phrase actually originated in Great Britain. The "Dick" in question was probably Oliver Cromwell's son Richard (1626-1712), who succeeded his father as ruler of England. Richard's brief reign, a matter of only seven months ending in his abdication, made him the object of popular contempt and the butt of many jokes. The unfortunate Dick's "hatband" was his crown, and the "tightness" was the discomfort and apprehension he was presumed to have felt. Variants on the joke at the time included another phrase sometimes still heard, "queer as Dick's hatband," referring to the preposterous course of Richard's reign.
"Tight as Dick's hatband" made the leap across the Atlantic and took up residence in the American South, where, the Cromwell saga being largely unknown, it was taken as a folk expression denoting extreme tightness or, sometimes, stinginess. And now, if you'll excuse me, I have to return something to the store.
[Q] From Martin Toseland, London: “My grandmother, from Lincolnshire, regularly compared something to Dick’s hatband, a puzzling allusion that I’ve never since quite sorted out. Can you help?”
[A] In truth, nobody has quite got to the bottom of this one. It was once commonly encountered in phrases like as tight as Dick’s hatband or as queer as Dick’s hatband. It means that something is absurd, perverse, or peculiar.
Its earliest appearance in print is in the 1796 edition of Francis Grose’s Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue. From references in various dialect and local glossaries, it seems to have been widely known in the early nineteenth century. This, for example, turns up in The History and Antiquities of Boston (the original, in your grandmother’s home country of Lincolnshire) by the wonderfully named Pishey Thompson, published in 1856:
It had by then long since been taken across the Atlantic, since it is referred to in 1848 in A Dictionary of Americanisms, by John Russell Bartlett:
I’ve also found as plain as Dick’s hatband and older than Dick’s hatband in later American works. Clearly an all-purpose expression — it adds emphasis to any occasion.
All well and good, you may agree, but none of this suggests where it comes from. There is a story that it refers to Richard Cromwell, the son of Oliver Cromwell, who briefly took over as Lord Protector of England in 1658 after his father’s death. Alas, he was not the man his father was. He was too amiable, thrust into a position of responsibility at a time of national crisis, and he was unable to reconcile the various factions in the military and Parliament. He was deposed after eight months. The hatband was supposed to be a reference to the crown of England, something he found too tight to wear with comfort.
Nice story, but if true, we would expect to find an example of its use popping up well before Francis Grose mentioned it in 1796. Also, to be strictly correct about it (read pedantic if it makes you happier), Richard Cromwell never had the title of king, which was anathema to the Puritans of the time, and he certainly never wore a crown.
To judge from the evidence, it’s actually of lateish eighteenth-century origin. But where it comes from, and who Dick was, if he was ever a real person, we have no clear idea. An intriguing suggestion I’ve seen is that Dick here was originally Nick, a reference to the devil.
"This is the drawer of a bona fide masterpiece."
What about the piece makes it a masterpiece? The loose dovetails? The uneven fillets? I would think not. Maybe it's the fact that someone is willing to pay a lot of money for it? I just can't fathom how any of those kinds of things have anything to do with the piece being a masterpiece (or not).
-Steve
Furniture factory? You couldn't have seen the Irion shop (a term used advisedly)... while they do use machines, the handwork done there is impeccable.
What there is of it
If I had to guess I'd say that either you're the beneficiary of a large inheritance or you are married to someone with a large enough salary to support the two of you. Perhaps you live a very humble life style, I don't know. Surely your woodworking is supplemented with some extra curricular teaching. Personally, I feel that it is hard enough earning money with machines. -j
What a great article! It brought back wonderful memories for me and my wife. We went to <!----><!----><!---->Winterthur<!----><!----> one weekend in 2000 or 2001 (It was a while ago so I am not exactly sure) when they were holding a craft fair. Irion had set up a booth and they were actually working on some of the pieces for the commision. While I was there I watched one of the craftsmen carve the knee on one of the 18 Phildelphia style chairs and another was making drawers for a chest. I can tell you that he could cut and chop the dovetails with amazing speed and they fit almost perfect the first time. <!----><!----><!---->
The craftsman working on the chairs probably gave me an hour of his time and he showed me part of the process he used for doing his carvings. He had a full scale drawing of the chair which he used to transfer the designs to the stock. He was relatively young so I asked him how he got so good at his craft. He told me one of the perks of working for Irion was that he could build all the furniture he wanted for himself on his own time in their shop. For the first two years he worked there he spent as much time as he could building pieces for his own house. One of his first was a clock that he built for his wife that was too tall for the 7 foot ceilings in his house so they cut a hole in the ceiling for it. <!----><!---->
I am amazed that you can ascertain the underlying details of Irions work by how shiny the finish is. The article is merely a glimpse at 10 years of work for a handful of guys. I appreciate your interpretation of how period furniture should be made but have to disagree with your narrow point of view and wonder if you even read the article.
Lastly, I am not sure what would serve the "artisan community" better but I can not see how spending money on researching the eating habits of Philadelphia chair makers would help. They were probably just trying to make a living, otherwise they wouldn't have been nailing crates to the back of their furniture to save money.
Of course I've seen their work up close. I'm not Sister Wendy! I think its important to see things in person. In fact, I really recommend it. Its tough to understand furniture by looking at pictures in books.And please don't take offense or make this into a personal thing. I'm talking about esthetics, and the way one interprets 18th c furniture or one's view of the period. It would have been better for us and for the industry if the customer asked for hand made copies of specific pieces from a large number of makers.Adam
"It would have been better for us and for the industry if the customer asked for hand made copies of specific pieces from a large number of makers." Adam, I am beginning to think you have something personal against the folks at this shop.Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Don't know about Adam but I basically hate their guts because they can out woodwork me with one hand tied behind their back. Adam has put his work in the public domain and I must say, unfortunately and with all due respect, that it simply does not measure up to what comes out of the Irion shop. One can quibble about secondary woods and finish with too bright a sheen all one wants, but I say - show me the last cartouche you carved, or how about the last massive breakfront you knocked out. Pierced carved pediments, anyone? Let's see the last bombe' form you completed.Let's get real. There are a relative handful of people in the world who can pull off work like this (even one piece, much less several) in ANY timeframe. I am not one of them. I'm pretty sure Adam Cherubini is not one either.
Edited 4/9/2008 10:44 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
There are a relative handful of people in the world who can pull off work like this (even one piece, much less several) in ANY timeframe. I am not one of them. I'm pretty sure Adam Cherubini is not one either.
I find this a very interesting assertion to ponder. I think it depends upon how you define "can." If you define it as producing a piece on the first attempt with a reasonable use of materials and a level of efficiency that makes the effort economically viable as a business, then I would agree. On the other hand, if one instead posits a hobbiest sort of effort, the number might well go up substantially. There are many folks who are good with their hands, clever, and artistically talented enough to make excellent reproductions if that is what they set their mind to. "Reproductions" is the key word here as it is much easier to duplicate than create in the first instance.
You're right, I would dismiss out of hand any attempts taking months on end where the profuse making and remaking of parts is a prominent feature of how the project progresses, if you could even call it that.The pieces pictured in the article are extremely difficult to reproduce under any set of circumstances you'd care to impose. Extremely difficult. Of course, this takes nothing away from the long dead original designers.
Edited 4/9/2008 4:14 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
Depends on how you define "handful". There are a heck of a lot of us by my count that are quite up to carving a cartouche or a ball and claw foot. In fact, way too many of us from the standpoint of those trying to make a living at it. There are few other industires that have to compete with an enormous number of capable amateurs or semi-amateurs that don't charge nearly enough for their time and expertise.
Just one example - with apologies to Robert Millard (whom I greatly respect), he describes in detail the construction of a Federal period candlestand with an inlaid eagle paterare that can be seen on his "current inventory" page:
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com/current%20inventory.html The sale price listed before this table was sold was $799, and I've seen a reference elsewhere on his site that the table took about 70 shop hours to complete.
The math here is rather obvious. Even without materials, that's a shockingly low per-hour rate, and not something sustainable without another source of income.
Rob, of course, can charge whatever he likes, and it's quite possible that his motivation for making the fine pieces that he does is not really an economic one.
But that's exactly the point - with so many semi-amateur makers selling very finely crafted objects, it's nearly impossible for a company like Irion to survive making one-off pieces. If you read the Fortune article about Irion Furniture Co., you find out that Irion yields a shockingly low return on investment, and even that would not be possible without the use of some labor-saving devices on the front end.
Rob Millard is one of the handful. I agree that Rob's pricing is rather a bargain. No doubt he can fill an order for a Seymour reproduction. His work is above reproach.Here's what I know about Irion:1) They got the commission. Speaks volumes? I think so.
2) They do great work.
3) They are a thoroughly professional shop.
4) They have tens of dozens of serious commissions under their collective belts.
5) They haven't gone belly-up yet.
Edited 4/9/2008 12:46 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
No disagreement on any of the numbered points. My point is that Irion doesn't make very much money, and I strongly suspect even that margin is in jeopardy if the used only the tools that an 18th century craftsman would have had available.
Like it or not, making exact reproductions including the pit saw marks often found on the tertiary surfaces of period pieces cannot be done in a concern that must produce a profit (however small) - there are far too many extremely skilled amateurs for whom even making a marginal profit is not a consideration to compete against.
No need to apologize, and thanks for saying you like my work.
The candlestand was sold for $750 but it actually took me less than 20 hours to make it. The 70 hour figure is for the tea caddy, which has the article describing its construction. I made the candlestand as a project for a video.
Still, making reproductions in not the way to get rich, or even live comfortably (my motivation for making the furniture is economic, it has to be I don't know how to do anything else). I've been told I don't charge enough, and that may be true, because there is a school of thought that says if you don't charge enough, people will think you're not doing good work. I have been lucky, because I have had many repeat customers, and few that have bought 8-10 pieces for their homes.
I'm able to make it because I live in an area where the cost of living is quite low. One of my customers lives in New Jersey, his auto insurance is more a year than I paid for my car. He paid $60.00 just to park to see a Christmas show; I paid $5.00 to park at a restaurant a few years ago and nearly cried; in fact I'm still not over it.
I think the person who commissioned the series from Irion bought the furniture as much as they did the schedule; few others could do the quality of work in the time frame.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob - Thanks for the explanation. I have to say I was really scratching my head when I'd thought you had 70 hours in that candlestand and only wanted $750 for it. I'm quite impressed, though, that you managed to build and finish the candlestand in 2 and a half days of shop time, including the eagle. That's frankly amazing for a superb piece of work.
Funny thing about the comment about not charging enough. I rememer a saying about that sort of thing when it comes to making high-end furniture - You can charge too much and starve to death, or you can charge too little and starve to death. The difference is that if you charge too little, you'll be really busy.
A person I used to know, sold high end military collectibles, and he said to always price your stuff to sell. As an example he showed me a dealer, who had the same set of wings for sale for years; the guy I was talking to, sold several sets in the same time period, so who made the most money. He said not only did he come out ahead just on those sales but he also ended up with more traffic to his booth, because he always had new stuff, which in turn netted him more sales. While this didn't translate directly to furniture, I have been guided by that example.
That candlestand is one of my favorite pieces to build (I have made 7 of 8 of them). It looks like it would be time consuming but it actually is very easy to build. The eagle takes about 2 1/2 -3 hours to make; making it the single most time consuming part of the table, followed closely by the top.
Thanks again
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Hmm - I'm still impressed that you can make the eagle in 2-3 hours. It'd take me several days. Of course, it's always like that when you're looking at something that someone else has made and you haven't. I've had people look over my shoulder at a Newport shell I was carving at a demonstration and whistle under their breath, then say that I must be a master carver to be able to create a convincing copy. The reality is that there are few carvings on early american furniture that are as easy, once you know the steps involved.
And I can understand why you would think that. But that's absolutely 100% wrong.If you follow my column you will soon learn that I do not always like my own furniture. Perhaps this is my maturation as a furniture maker (because I've liked previous pieces). But I view my latest project as an abject failure. I carefully photographed my mistakes and detailed exactly what I didn't like. And its not the craftsmanship, though I wasn't especially pleased with that. I felt I took my eye off the art work.I wrote an objective critique having seen this firm's work inside and out. I would have written and felt the same had they been my pieces. And for Charles and Samson, it matters not at all what I can do. Few of us can make a movie, but we are all at our ease to discuss what we like or dislike. It seems however, I'm one of the few in this thread who actually saw this movie.Adam
Edited 4/9/2008 11:38 am ET by AdamCherubini
For the record, I have very little idea of what you personally can or cannot do. I was responding to Charles larger thesis concerning the ability to create first class reproductions of period furniture.
And you know I'm with you on the art point.
"I wrote an objective critique having seen this firm's work inside and out."I think once you see planed and cleaned up secondary surfaces any critique you write after having done so is anything but objective.I think the original post from Taunton requested a critique of the selection of pieces. I don't think they ever dreamed that the work itself could or would be panned and I believe the language in the original post alluded to this. I have to agree.Adam, this latest bit of silliness of yours is bordering on, if it doesn't surpass, your statement that Lie-Nielsen didn't know what they were doing. "Making up planes as they go" or something like that. What's up with all this?
No. You're wrong. My crack about LN was much more boneheaded than this! I gotta get back to work and I have a huge bowl of bolognese to eat. Aw crud! Now its cold. Where's the pepperoncino? Where's mio amico Mel?Ciao!Adamo
You ought to sit down with Chris Schwartz and get approval to contact the Irion people about doing a story. I think once you're in there your mind might change a little bit.
I would have also like to seen a bit more variety in origin such as pieces from the surrounding areas not just the economic centers. I would have like to seen some pieces from New Hampshire or Connecticut craftsmen. But those pieces represent what was bought by the affluent people of the time and the people who could afford those pieces back then lived in Boston, Newport, New York and Philadephia. I dont have 2.2mil for a commission and maybe if I did my tastes would also lean toward the highly decorative and stylized pieces of this commission.
"...They were probably just trying to make a living, otherwise they wouldn't have been nailing crates to the back of their furniture to save money...."
Precisely.
Other than for perhaps sheer habit in a limited number of instances yours is the only explanation that makes any sense. It's doubtful anybody ever thought the substandard lumber was attractive, just expedient under the circumstances.
I'm trying to picture the principal of a well known shop proudly pointing out to a customer thusly: "hey, please make sure you notice the chicken crate lumber we used to make these drawer bottoms. "The shingles we used as bottoms on the small drawers came off the brothel down the street in the last big storm."
Those involved and invested in the cult of strict copy seem to be losing all sense of perspective.
These were marketplace transactions in the 1700s and so was the Irion commission. The guy with the money gets to decide who gets the work. I can live with that.
Edited 4/9/2008 9:46 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
The answer to the question is yes, these are examples of the greatest pieces of period furniture ever. They represent a period where is was more than craft or utility, it was truly furniture art and the skills required to execute were significant.
I admire the team the reproduced the pieces and the client who felt passionate about re-creating that period in his home.
Wow! What an inspiration. Several years ago Taunton published Fine Furniture and this artical has come the closest to that great magazine. As for the artisans that built this collection, all I can think of is what a great job. I just wish I had the time, let alone the skill to attempt such work.
I would add the 9 shell newport secetary as I understand there is only one origional in a museum in at the John Brown in Providence Rhoad Island.. I would like to talk to anyone who has built this .. or knows anything about it my e-mail is mackay [email protected]
Allan Breed http://www.allanbreed.com is likely one of the best sources for information on the Newport secretaries. He has done close reproductions with the originals completely available to him. He has plans for a 6-shell available for sale on his web pages. (He has worked, through the auction houses, for sellers of masterpieces to make reproductions of items being sold, making, for example, reproductions for two inheriting siblings, so they could split the money without having to argue over splitting the furniture.)
By the way, he offers classes. Having taken one of his classes I highly recommend him as a teacher.
Edited 4/10/2008 5:40 am ET by SteveSchoene
Steve,
I just checked and the plans for the 6 shell secretary sells for $575! Eeee gads is that expensive or what!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yes, but they're quite accurate from the standpoint of interior construction. I have Alan's Newport Kneehole Bureau plans, which were also quite pricey at $350. While I was a bit dissapointed in them because they're simply a xerox copy of the originals (versus a true print), $350 was a heck of a lot cheaper than taking the trip to see the original, even if I had been given access, and I'd estimate I'd have had at least $350 of my time in developing plans of my own from various (expensive) books like Master Craftsmen of Newport.
If you'd like a bargain for some incredible plans, consider Robert Whitley's Bombe Chest plans. They're masterfully done, and includes 5 E-size drawings of the interior case parts, curvature of the sides, curved drawer dovetails, and explanatory notes and pictures of the piece under construction.
$350 was a heck of a lot cheaper than taking the trip to see the original
How true! Perhaps I should think beyond the end of my nose.
As an aside, have you ever come across plans for a cylinder top secretarie? Like this one:
View Image
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob - I haven't, and after viewing the picture you provided, I suppose I should say "Unfortunately, I haven't". The big plans resources, at least for period furniture, is FWW (the store), Tools for Working Wood (Carlisle Lynch plans), and Olde Mill Cabinet Shoppe, besides, of course, Robert Whitley and Alan Breed. If you find a decent set of plans for the secretary you pictured or one like it, I'd certainly like to know about it.
David
Another source for high quality plans of period furniture would be Phil Lowe at
http://www.furnituremakingclasses.com/home.html
David,
I will certainly make any plans available to you as well as anyone in Knots if I should happen to find one.
I think that starting with the cylinder would be first so as to determine dimensions for its enclosure. Guess I should start a new discussion as just looking at the piece leads me to think that there would be a multitude of skills used in its construction.
Another great challenge.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I have never seen plans for a cylinder desk, but there is a pretty good description of the process in The Encyclopedia of Furniture Making by Ernest Joyce. I have the 1979 printing and the discussion is on page 330-333.
I think with a good full size drawing and some careful work, it would be pretty easy to do.
There is a Baltimore cylinder desk with an eagle inlay shown in one of the Albert Sack books, that I would like to make; I just need to find a customer that wants one.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
Thanks a bunch man. That's the first one!
When you say easy that takes on a whole new meaning to me. :>)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Steve I was looking for a 9shell is the 6 shell .similar. I have plans for a9shell now that I paid 2000 for but feel they are to incomplete for me to build off ... How complete are the 6 shell plans woodkeith
I haven't actually seen the plans for the six-shell secretary I just know that Allan Breed is a meticulous craftsman who has had Newport originals in his shop. He would probably be willing to discuss what is in his plans with you.
There are some aspects of the 9-shell that would be pretty daunting in making an accurate reproduction. Alone among the 10 block and shell front secretaries, it has the shells carved from the solid where the others have applied shells. The wood choosen should be spectacular--the Moses description calls it "on fire" compared to the figured mahogany of the others. The lipped drawers, instead inset and cockbeaded, add significantly to the work involved. You probably don't want to reproduce the nails some butcher subsquently added to "strengthen" the dovetailed drawer sides. At least the desk section is very plain.
I assume you have or have access to the Moses Master Craftsmen of Newport it's chapter 8 discusses these pieces in some detail and has pictures of many details. The 1999 issue of American Furniture has a few other pictures and a little discussion of this piece, now attributed to Providence Cabinetmaker John Carlile (Carlyle).
Is the piece still at the Rhode Island Historical Society. There were plans announced to sell it in 2005 that generated a major controversy. I think that some donors were found that bailed the institution out, but I don't really know the story on this. If it is still on public display a visit would be mandatory I would think if you have occastion to get across the continent. I have no idea what kind of access might be had--museums vary widely on this. Donors do often get special benefits.
Edited 4/14/2008 7:25 am ET by SteveSchoene
I would agree with woodkeith about the 9 shell secretary at the Brown House in Providence. A stunning piece for any similar collection.
It's a big puppy though.
John
Good suggestion. I should check it out as a summer road trip… <!----><!----><!---->Providence<!----><!----> is not too far from our CT offices. I got my first taste of <!----><!---->Newport<!----><!----> furniture last summer at the Whitehorne House but it sounds like I missed out on a lot of furniture gems in the area.
Gina
I am joining in rather late and see a lot of discussion about whether or not the pieces in the collection have been reproduced accurately. For instance, whether or not the drawer bottoms were let into the sides or just nailed on. This comment by Adam seems to stem for a video of work at the Irion shop. Can you tell us if this was in fact done on these pieces? In fact were the pieces exactly reproduced or were changes made to the details to accommodate wood movement?
Bill
The Greatest American Period Furniture
I'd say something made by a child that was made from orange crates!
I couldn't think of a better way to spend $2,000,000 dollars.
If he had a workshop in that house, wonder what that would look like...
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 4/18/2008 10:08 pm by flairwoodworks
I was a little surprised that I did not see a more involved tilt top table. There are more than a few well done pieces from the Philadelphia area which I would think would be well suited to this collection.
John
If I had pockets as deep as Johns " the patron" I know wher id be going to get my furniture. These guys are fantastic...makes me feel like a piker
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
The Greatest American Period Furniture
I'd say the really OLD beds with a tall board in the middle to keep us APART untill the morning time! I forget what they are called!
Bundling boards."There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
Bundling boards. THANKS! And I thought my OLD term memory was OK! LOL
I could not think of that for the life of me!
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