Replies

1. 
   CStanford | Jun 23, 2004 04:36pm | #1

   Some have complained about Sorby chisels folding up on really hard species.  Hickory qualifies on that count.

   You could try taking them back down to 25 degrees with no microbevel.  Do not hollow grind the chisels.  Lap them on stones or sandpaper on glass.

1. 
   Froed | Jun 23, 2004 07:28pm | #6

   Can you explain why you recommend decreasing the bevel angle, I'm not sure I understand?  It sounds like Nick is paring to tweak the fit of his tenons, 30 degree secondary bevel.  If that's the case, wouldn't a 25 degree bevel tend to crumble more?  A steeper bevel should have less of a tendency to crush or chip the edge, but will make it a bit harder to cut, right?

   It sounds to me like the Sorby's can't cut it, but I want to make sure I'm not missing something.  I've never worked with hickory, but I've heard it can be rather stringy.  I have a Sorby corner chisel.  It sits in a drawer somewhere, because it was a pain to sharpen, and the edge folded over as soon as I used it.  Don't remember what the bevel angle is.

   I think I'd be real tempted to get a shoulder plane about now.  Better control, lighter cuts.

1. 
   CStanford | Jun 23, 2004 07:49pm | #7

   While he is not using a mortise chisel to do this paring, my recommendation is based on the typical strategy of not using microbevels on chisels destined for heavy use.  A 30 degree primary bevel with no added microbevel would probably be fine, if the primary is already at 30 degrees.

   I am assuming that the regular factory ('primary') grind on his chisels is 25 degrees.  All I am suggesting is that he remove the microbevel, which will be relatively easy.  I don't think there would be any sense in regrinding the primary to 30 degrees.

   IMO, going from a hollow grind back to a flat grind would be the first thing to do, assuming that the chisels are, in fact, hollow ground. 

   All this said, I would probably hack and pare until the tenons fit and worry about the edges later.  Or if they really were breaking down that badly, I'd just pick up a rasp and finish up (or a shoulder plane). 

   Ultimately, you might be right about the 30 degrees.  But, again, I don't think it would make enough difference to warrant a regrind of the primary.  I stand by my recommendation to eliminate the microbevel, although others might disagree.

1. 
   Froed | Jun 24, 2004 02:48pm | #10

   Thanks for the explanation.  I typically don't use a microbevel anyway, it just seemed that 25 degrees wouldn’t do much for him if a 30 degree edge was crumbling.  I agree that a hollow grind won’t help.

   Of course, I’d have grabbed the shoulder plane straight away…

1. 
   ndeevers | Jun 24, 2004 03:45pm | #11

   I admit that a shoulder plane would have been the best tool for this application, but I have yet to purchase one. My shop is very new and it's primary funding come from me. And I also fund my own college and college comes first. I will plan on purchasing one in the future. I also admit I have no formal training, I learn through books, trial and error, and advice. So I very much appreciate all the advice.

2. 
   Froed | Jun 24, 2004 08:27pm | #12

   "...college comes first."  Sounds like a good plan to me.  I hope I didn't come off as snobbish, like somehow not having a shoulder plane makes you less of a woodworker.  Not at all.  I'm also self-taught, and will be for the foreseeable future.  My tools also come one at a time, but I'd say the limiting factor to my work is me.

   I've also fit tenons using chisels, and with block and bench planes.  Using a plane worked out fine, as long as I was careful to keep the tenon cheeks parallel.  I just cleaned up the step with a chisel.  Anyway, once I decided it was time for a shoulder plane (and funds allowed it), fitting tenons got much more efficient and pleasant (and yes, fun).

   For me, if it's a question of having a cheap tool now, or doing without a bit longer to get a better tool, I'll wait.  However, I'm not so vain as to think I need Lie-Nielsen everything (or Norris, or Bridge City), or a full set of matching type Bailey planes to do good work.

3. 
   ndeevers | Jun 24, 2004 09:45pm | #13

   You didn't sound snobbish at all. I too, believe it is better to wait for proper funding for the right tool then to buy a cheap tool. Though a cheap tool is sometimes just as good as the exspensive tool. I also can't justify purchasing a Lie Nielson. Maybe a Veritas? 

2. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 23, 2004 05:17pm | #2

   youngin

      Have to agree with Mr. Stanford. A normal bevel on a bench chisel is 25 degrees. When you take it up to 30, you are approaching the 31 to 35 degrees which is normal for a mortice chisel. The higher bevel should be stronger and less prone to nick and dull. Hollow grinding is quicker, but at the price of giving up some strenght on the bevel. OK for soft-wood, but a bit more sacrifice when the going gets tough.

      I have a set of Sorby's I bought somewhere around the late 70's. I find that the Sorby's now don't have the same edge holding ability that my early ones do. This may be the root of your problem combined with hickory isn't a push-over. You won't hold an edge on a very hard wood like hickory as long as you would a more moderate hard-wood like walnut, maple, oak, etc. with any chisel.

      As a thought if you ever replace your chisels, you might look into Hirsch, Ashley Isles, etc. as they are quality at a price the same or less than the Sorby's. If you hang onto the Sorb's, then the alternative is to keep the stones or sand-paper convenient and learn to drink coffee while you sharpen. I personally like to sharpen as I missed all that trans-cendal (sp) mediation stuff back in the 60's as they sent me off to war. It's my way of retaliating.  ha.. ha...  ha.. ha.. ha..

   Regards from the deep southern U.S. ...

   sarge..jt

   Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

3. 
   BG | Jun 23, 2004 06:16pm | #3

   youngin,

   I'll echo what the others have said. I keep my Sorby at 25 degrees and almost never put a mallet to it...use it strickley for paring...which I love it for.  However, it seems to me the tennons your triming... weren't you only paring those?
1. 
   ndeevers | Jun 23, 2004 06:32pm | #4

   BG,

   I was trimming the thickness of the tenon so the top face would match the mating piece's top face. I hope that gives more info of what the cutting action was.

   Edited 6/23/2004 11:33 am ET by youngin

1. 
   BG | Jun 23, 2004 07:09pm | #5

   youngin,

   My point was...the tip should not roll if your paring with the Sorby....especailly if its 25 degree.  If it is rolling and your using it for paring (ie. not hitting it with a mallet) ....I don't know what is going on...

4. 
   Alan | Jun 24, 2004 12:10am | #8

   Young sir,

   I suspect the problem is the chisels, not you.  I too have heard similar stories of Sorby chisels folding and crumbling--and I have such a story too.

   I own only two Sorby chisels and I will not own a third.  The steel on both is too soft.  They fold over and run for cover if they're in the same room with a piece of oak.

   Alan

5. 
   mike4244 | Jun 24, 2004 02:08am | #9

   No experience with Sorby chisels, only lathe tools that I like. I hollow grind at 25*, never put a secondary or micro bevel on a paring or butt chisel. I hone several times until the hollow grind dissapears. Many times I do not regrind but hone the entire bevel without regard to hollow grind. When the chisel starts to rock when honing , it's time to regrind the hollow grind, means I started rounding the bevel. I tried microbevels a number of years ago, I did not find it any better or faster than the way i described.The more bevel  the weaker the edge.

   mike