Talk me out of a Festool Domino
flairwoodworks
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Since the release of the Domino, I have heard nothing negative about it other than the price. I can’t really justify the expense and don’t want to spend $700 on one, but the temptation is growing. Does anyone have any reason not to buy one if they had $700 burning a hole in their pocket (not that I do)?
Chris @ flairwoodworks
– Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. – Albert Schweitzer
Replies
Sorry. I can't help. I love mine and wouldn't be without it. Worth every penny, in my opinion.
Good luck.
Dick
The primary argument against it is the price. You can make mortise and tenon joints in many others ways. After all, they've been the primary furniture joint for many centuries before the Domino arrived. Depending on what else you have in your workshop, and in your personal skill set, the Domino might be able to make these joints faster. Me, I'd spend my money on a tool which allows me to do something that I just cannot do at all with my present shop.
Jamie,That’s an excellent point. I too have been going back and forth on the purchase of a Domino since they came out and to date have not made the plunge pardon the pun. I think that Festool makes great tools even though I’ve got a fair amount of money invested in them, I just can’t seem to bring myself to purchase it. I mean I can make a mortise so many ways. . .http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
The reason that you haven't seen any bad reviews of the tool is because the tool is worth every penny it costs. Yes there are many ways to cut M & T, it depends on the type of work you are doing. This tool enhances speed in production, it allows you to take the tool to the piece instead of the piece to the tool. It makes furniture making and M & T's so easy that there are no excuses not to use traditional joinery in this new way.
Kaleo
http://www.kaleosworkshop.com
I've had mine a few weeks and love it. It's the strenght of M&T with the conveneience of a biscuit jointer. Mater of fact, I just boxed up my PC 557 with a box of biscuits going to a knots member in tomorrows mail. I'll challenge you on the $700 cost unless you are getting an sweet deal. Don't forget the extra cutters and domino's in the $240 kit. I added the 33CTe so my trip to the hip was painful, but I don't regret it. All you will say after you use it is WOW!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
One example of a tool which truly gives me new capabilities: a vacuum press. It offers an effective way to tackle the whole world of veneering, and it can do lumber lamination, and bent lamination, and all sorts of stuff. A vacuum veneer press rig costs less than a Domino -- particularly when you add in $250 for the biscuits and cutters and such.
Another tool which truly changed what I can do: a carbide-tipped resaw blade on my bandsaw. I can now resaw anything with ease. I can saw veneers with such a clean surface that I can use it for either the glue face or the show face. A carbide blade for my saw is about $200.
Another machine which truly changes what I can do: a jointer at least 8" wide. I can flatten and straighten nearly any board. I can't figure out how I built any furniture before I had that capability. A 12" combo jointer-planer costs a couple grand. That's the price of two Dominos, but if you don't have wide face-jointing capability, it'll extend your shop way more than a Domino will.
Jamie,
Thanks for your response... certainly some interesting thoughts.
Regarding the vacuum press, I use a technique for veneering which utilizes thinnes yellow glue and an iron which works flawlessly. I wouldn't consider a vacuum press for this. I feel that I can do a perfectly fine job of laminating with clamps. I'm sure that you used clamps back in the day before a vacuum press. Could you reflect on the differences between clamps and a press?
I'm in the middle of tuning up my relatively new General 14" band saw (with riser). I've bought a 1/2" Swedish steel bandsaw blade which is supposed to do a good job of resawing, though I'm positive it won't cut as smoothly as your blade. Which carbide blade did you get?
I already own a 8" jointer... now I want a 12".Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"Regarding the vacuum press, I use a technique for veneering which utilizes thinnes yellow glue and an iron which works flawlessly. I wouldn't consider a vacuum press for this. I feel that I can do a perfectly fine job of laminating with clamps. I'm sure that you used clamps back in the day before a vacuum press. Could you reflect on the differences between clamps and a press?"
I've tried all sorts of techniques for veneering, in a personal history which goes back at least thirty years. In my hands, none are as reliable or as easy as a veneer press. My interest is furniture, so I'm wanting to veneer panels which are several feet across -- heck, sometimes four feet by eight feet.
Of course, there are a zillion ways to do almost everything in woodworking, so other folks may have different experience and/or opinions about this than I do. However, when I first put a vacuum press together I immediately gave up on all those other methods. The vacuum press works very well, and is very reliable.
I’d much rather have a jointer/planner combo machine with a slot mortising attachment. And from the sound of it the “Domino” gets you about half way there price wise. I regret selling my Robland J/P/M machine every time I’m in the shop and am just waiting for Grizzly to get the mortising table for their new combo machine, and then I sell the jointer and the planer and replace them. Once you use a real slot morticer, everything else pales in comparison.
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As it stands I have been able to cut just about any mortise with a combination of a plunge router, various jigs and hand tools.
Edited 1/21/2008 9:19 am ET by Napie
Unfortunately the color scheme of tools give away the manufacturer and those in the know know that Feestool makes nothing that is reasonably priced. After I got my Domino I decided to keep it hidden except when I’m using it in private. In other words I don’t want anyone to think I’ve lost my mind paying $1000 for a hand held power tool and all the accessories. Yes the tool works but a lot of the much less expensive tools I’ve bought also work.
One word of advice - If you get the Domino remember to clamp down any piece you use it on. It plunges into wood like a gentle biscuit joiner but unlike a biscuit joiner the bit oscillates (I think that’s the right word) and it will jerk your work piece around.
Aha! A negative! "it will jerk your work piece around." Unfortunately, I still need more convincing.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
My comment was not intended to be a negative. I was just telling you to make sure your piece is clamped down. The Feestool people will tell you that. What I was really trying to say is that if you won’t miss the money, buy it and have a good time. If you will miss the money, how are you going to feel in six months when you need your $700 to $1000 for something that really matters? “Sorry son, I can’t pay to straighten out your teeth and stop the kids from calling you beaver, but I can cut a this great new hole for joints in wood”.
If money was no object, there are plenty of woodworking tools that make things easier - industrial sized drum sanders, CNC machines, etc. Even if such machines made my work "better" in some respects, or four times faster, I wouldn't want them. Same goes for a Domino. I'm a hobbiest - I'm largely indifferent to speed and I don't want to produce anything that someone might mistake for having come from a factory. I also take personal satisfaction in knowing certain things were done in certain ways and to certain tolerances, even on parts that do not show. I'm not arguing that you should be like me AT ALL. All I'm saying is that one reason that some folks, like myself, might not buy a Domino, is that the Domino would change the process for us in a negative way.
Buy a WoodRat instead. You can buy the same size router bits as the Domino uses from Woodcraft, then buy the little wood inserts. The 'Rat does everything the Domino does, maybe a bit better. Plus, then you will have a new tool that will cut about every other type of joinery you can think of as well.
I already had a 'Rat, so I'll never buy a Domino. Besides, that is a lot of money for a one trick pony.
I certainly would not tell you "not" to buy one.. nor would I tell you "to buy" one. You are putting the verdict in the hands of a judge and jury that doesn't know the truth.. the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Only you do, IMO.
I would sit down with a cup of coffee Chris.. think about it and then ask myself "what do I need one for"? Are you commercial and require fast runs of M&T's?.. Is M&T's your go to joint and just how many do you use? .. How are you cutting M&T's now? ..
And you might consider a few other things. Do I have a biscuit joiner and if so.. why could I not lower the center-line the thickness of the cutter head and make one cut and then turn the stock over and make another cut to give me double thickness centered. With my floating tenon I could produce by the hundreds from scrap stock, I then have my own floating tenon system with something I already have.
And then after all that thinking.. I would ask myself is if I really have a true need... or have I just become brain-washed from the current hype into thinking that I cannot complete a piece without one as the older methods that have been used for many years are now obsolete and they won't work anymore.
So.. then if ya need one.. borrow and get one. Or if you just feel life is not worth living anymore without a Domino.. get one by whatever means necessary and please.. please.. see your shrink to get on some medication.
Just my $.02 worth.. as they say. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
TOTALLY UNESSARY
Flair:
I, too, am the happy owner of a Domino. But, I had nothing invested in a biscuit joiner. I also considered the Powermatic mortiser.
First off, it's a great way to make loose tenon joinery. Recently, I was able to make some 48 joints for a vanity in about a couple of hours. Portability is a real benefit; I used it to locate a removable panel in the kitchen floor. It's really very versatile; yesterday, I used it to locate and attach a 10 foot cap rail to the vertical piece for the top of some wainscoting. I used the narrow setting for the "male" piece and the widest setting for the "female" allowing for lateral adjustment.
However, it is not without some problems. Many users report to the need to make adjustments out of the box (you can find these on the Festool Owners Group). Although it looks simple to use, there is a learning curve and some reported dissatisfaction was in fact due to operator error. Others have noted alignment problems when using the cross-stop accessory or the alignment pins ( I, like others, do not rely on these). Remember too, that you can only make relatively small joints.
So it's not the answer to the maiden's prayer! If it fits well with the type of work that you do, then it's a great buy. And only you know the answer to that.
Regards,
Hastings
Chris,
It will run you about $990 with the domino assortment and the 2 extra fences that are fairly handy.
I was on the fence on buying one since I already have a multi router, I finally bought one and find it fairly easy to use and real versatile. There is a learning curve but it is not much more complicated than a biscuit jointer and it is pretty easy to learn on the go once you figure out the basics. It won't do it all and I'm not going to sell my multi router but it does about 90% of the work I used to do on the multi router and is much more convenient to use and it is fairly fast and has good accuracy.
Tom
A multi router AND a Domino. Man...if I had your money, I'd throw mine away...;-)
Not wealthy by any stretch, I make furniture for a living so I do a lot of looking at pros/cons of tools when I purchase them. I bought the multi router used 10 years ago for less than the domino costs. Yes the domino is expensive but for what I do the Domino has probably paid for itself in six months. You can look at my badly out of date web site to see what I do
http://www.starbuckfurniture.net
Tom
Making furniture for a living is where I believe this tool can be justified for the average Joe Woodworker. It seems to be a production tool. It makes sense to me why you would own one. Same goes for the multi router. I see you tutored under David Marks. I have watched and enjoyed many of his WW episodes on cable. Is he the same in life as he appears on his shows? He seems like a pretty decent person if he is...
I've actually never seen an entire episode of his show, don't have TV. David is a great guy and was very helpful to me both before and after I apprenticed with him. He is also a very good teacher and even before he opened his school he always had apprentices.
Tom
Thanks for all your responses, both pushing me towards and away from the Domino. I've decided to (drum roll please...) not purchase the Domino now, but instead look at a dedicated mortiser or router jigs - either shop-built or prefabricated (either the Leigh FMT or Woodrat). Or maybe I'll just continue making mortises the "old-fashioned" way. The deciding factors were:
Efficiency versus enjoyment. I would enjoy chopping out a mortise more than plunging a bit into wood.
Domino versus dedicated mortiser (or slot mortiser). Thanks Hastings for your very insightful and informative post. Portability, which the Domino obviously has over a mortiser is not an issue for me. I will consider a mortiser.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Glad to see that you were able to make a decision. Perhaps you don't need any more input, but....
I am NOT a professional woodworker, so efficiency is not a huge issue for me. I do not travel to job sites or need a portable tool. I do have somewhat limited space so a dedicated slot mortiser (i.e. the Laguna) just wouldn't make a lot of sense despite its capabilities...perhaps ditto for the multirouter. Not to mention that my wife might have a stroke if I shoehorned another large stational machine into our garage.
I do have a dedicated hollow chisel mortiser which USED to get a fair bit of use. Since I got the domino, I don't think I've used the hollow chisel mortiser more that 4 times in 6 months (sniff). The domino is just too much fun not to use on any project that can be realistically created using floating tenons. The hollow chisel mortiser is pretty much relegated to through tenon jobs now and will probably get sold.
I'm not sure about the "fun" of ploughing mortises with a freehand router. I've never found that to be very fun. Chopping them by hand is fun but, of course, not where you want to apply most of your effort in some projects. No one says you can't have a Domino AND a chisel, though.
I don't have any first hand experience with the FMT or woodrat. I kind of think those jigs are the equivalent of the dovetail router jigs. If you are producing a LOT of parts with the same mortise and tenon setup then the jig is worth the time to set up, fine tune and use. For just a couple of joints, I'm not so sure... On the plus side, the FMT has dropped quite a bit in price over the past 9 months....hmm...wonder why that is?
Bottom line: love the domino. Well worth the money. Ten times more versatile than my hollow chisel mortiser and only about 3 times the price. Obviously a slot mortiser or multirouter is more versatile but also a lot bigger, and heavier (and frankly more expensive).
Ever met anyone who regretted their previous purchase of the domino? I'm sure that person exists but I haven't met him or her yet. Can't say that about many tools these days....
Best wishes.
Rick
Thanks for you input Rick. That's certainly food for thought. Thinking... thinking... still thinking...Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Not so fast!There's one for sale in the classifieds you can save a few bucks.(I have no affiliation, just stumbled on it)Sgwilliams
Good advice.
It's interesting to see one in the classifieds. I can't imagine what would prompt someone to use the domino twice and then sell it. Hard to fathom how you could try the thing and then say: "well...that just doesn't do what it's supposed to do..." When I tried it for the first time, that little voice in my head started yelling "hey...what else could we use this for outside woodworking...maybe auto maintenence or making cheese sculptures...." Soungs like the seller is the poster you need to contact for the negative input to help avoid purchasing it.
The knocks on the domino are cost, relative one-trick-pony status, and maybe that it takes the challenge (and need for skill) out of certain woodworking tasks. Not gracefully making precise holes in wood isn't one of its weaknesses...that it does very nicely indeed.
Rick
Edited 1/21/2008 10:47 pm ET by Astro
I believe the seller bought it for a particular job, knowing he could use it & get enough on the re-sell to justify the cost / time savings. (I first saw it advertised on another forum)I actually am a owner of a domino. I love the thing! Pricey, sure. But just this week I used it for rails in a king bed. Don't see you slide'n them in a "Rat" or easily in a slot mortiser. I actually have a Griz horizontal boring machine that can be used for doweling or morticing. It's fast and easy for short pieces but just not usable for anything longer than about 2 or 3 ft.I'm not say'n there are not other options but depending on the project, sometimes it's just better to take the tool to the wood instead of wrestling the wood through the tool.Everyone has their own way, to me, shop time is precious... The right tool for the job is priceless.Sgwilliams
might not be a doesnt do what its supposed to do. might be good tool but isnt practical for me.That is why I wont purchase one. Looks like a great tool. I sort of lusted over it when I first saw it...But I can do the same thing with a lot of other tools.
For example, I own a biscuit jointer. before I would buy a domino I would try doubling or even tripling up the biscuits if it needed added strength for example. if i was to small for biscuits theres always dowls. Just my opinion
Edited 1/23/2008 2:56 pm by Sancho
That is why I wont purchase one. Looks like a great tool. I sort of lusted over it when I first saw it...But I can do the same thing with a lot of other tools.For example, I own a biscuit jointer. before I would buy a domino I would try doubling or even tripling up the biscuits if it needed added strength for example.
You will not get strength from biscuits. First, they are pressed wood chips, and second they don't go into the wood very far. I used biscuits and they were great for alingemnt of panels and such, but studies have shown that they only provide a minimum strenght, where the domino is solid wood that acts as a floating tenon with all the bennifits, but with the ease of use.
if i was to small for biscuits theres always dowls. Just my opinion
You could use dowels as an alternative and there plusses and minuses with dowels as well. The advanage of the domino over dowles is the adjustability. You can be off slightly and still hit the mark.
You are correct there are lots of alternatives, and the domino is one, but a very convenient one, and expensive for sure. Some people will thing it's too expensive for a tool. But then, some will think the convenience is worth the money. and some will pay hundreds for a hand plane. So I guess value is in the eye of the beholder.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
How wide.. how deep.. will the Domino go and what thickness are the tenons the Domino uses...
And just to keep the thread active for another 500 post.. can you get official.. factory distributed "Domino touch-up paint"?.. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 1/23/2008 6:41 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Only $250 per 1/2 oz. bottle!
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It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Are the tenons of adequate size to build 1 3/8" interior doors?Thanks, John
Excellent question IMO, John. I often do 3"-31/2" table legs with hidden M&T's and work-bench legs up to 4" in through mortices. The reason I ask a similar question in sincerity to arrive at an answer to the question of, "just how much beef" could I expect for $1 K.
And it it a question that should be ask before you make a purchase of that nature as I personally see. Someone else may see it in a different view.
Sarge..
I think they might be a tad short for full size door work, the largest tenon is 3/8 in. thick by 2 in. long by 7/8 in. wide.
If you haven't seen it yet Asa's got a review here.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Not quite big enough, IMO
Paul
Big Doors and DOMINOBigger ain't necessarily better. Mortise and Tenon joints are joining end grain to side grain. Wood changes dimensions more acrossed the grain than with the grain.So - lots of acrossed the grain (wide tenon) into a tight mortise in the long grain can present a problem, especially near the ends of the mortised part. Four smaller M&Ts - or 6 if you have the room - can be better than one HUGED one.Now I know you're gonna say - But that means I have to cut MORE mortises. You're absolutely correct. But remember they can be cut as fast as a biscuit cut.Check this page out - and note that the guy cutting all those mortises a) has very little woodworking experience and b) watched one set of mortises cut. Four mortises - one mitered corners - on BOTH ends - in under three minutes - including flipping the part around and walking to the other end of a SEVEN FOOT LONG part.http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DougGate/DougGate.htmlI've got a General International 75-075M - the one with the XY table AND tilting head. I got it while building my workbench cause I "needed" BIG through mortises. Haven't used it much since I started using loose tenon M&T joints.And we're talking Loose Tenon M&T here and not "real" M&T joinery. The former has significant advantages over the latter.1. No "visible length" PLUS tenon lengthS to deal with, Cut the part to its visible length - period, No additional math, fractions or integers to deal with - and misread or mismark.
.
2. If you cut your loose tenon too short - grab, or make another one. No making a whole new part because you screwed up by a half inch on one or both ends.3. No danger in tear out or splintering the shoulders of the tenoned parts.Now to comparing the DOMINO method of cutting mortises for loose tenon joints to Dedicated Chisel and Bit mortising machine, Leigh / Wood Rat jig and Horizontal Mortising/Boring machines.A chisel and bit mortising machine normally can't cut mortises into end grain - they're designed for side grain. And they don't do that well on end grain even if the part would fit the space available. Loose tenon joinery wasn't doable with chisel and mallet - you'd split the wood.With a chisel and bit machine you have some set up and set up changes to mess with. You either have to layout every mortise on every part AND align the chisel and bit distance from fence to mortise and travel left and right in order to set the stops - or eyeball the whole process. Think about a table leg to aprons joinery - with the face of the apron set back for a reveal. Unless you center the leg's TWO mortises (for front AND side aprons) you need TWO set ups.
Now you've got TWO possible ways to screw up (ok - so I;m the only one who makes those kinds of mistakes)So lets look at the Leigh FMT and the new WoodRat router and jigs methods and the horizontal mortiserSome illustrations might help
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DOMINO/Jigs/DOMINO_Compare1.htmlBack up to the Domino Index and see how the DOMINO approaches things.
I still think the 2 inch length limit makes it unsuitable for doors.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Can a Dowel-max accomplish the same thing as the Domino for about $775 less if you want loose tenons?
Regards...
Sarge..
Hi charlie b,
It certainly is a wonder of engineering and I'm sure is very accurate. For smaller projects I'm sure it would do a fantastic job.
I just prefer a longer and sometimes wider and sometimes thicker tenon. It would be great for model making :) Just kidding. Don't want to offend. Seriously. I can see a usefulness depending on the type of projects you do.
I do enjoy the range of sizes my slot mortiser gives me. Maybe not quite as fast but certainly no less accurate. I'll save my money and buy some wood instead.
Paul
charlie,
Bigger ain't necessarily better.
I think smaller ain't necessarily better either. With just 2" of tenon that pretty much eliminates the Domino to very small pieces I would think. On even small frame and panle doors I would be curious as to the max. width that mating pieces can/should be?
Might be a slick way of accomplishing the task but with such a small tenon how long will doors stand up? Typically I would think that doors take a lot of abuse over their lifetime.
Sounds like very limited use/utility for all that money. Also I wonder what other uses it can provide besides loose M & T's? As a hobbyist with a small shop I try to buy tools that can be multi functional whenever possible. I don't see that with the Domino.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
With a Dowel-max Bob, you can set the depth you drill well beyond 1" and make custom floating tenons for basically nothing from scrap. I believe it runs around $229-$250. Or Rockler has a Beadlock Pro that will do basically the same thing as the Dowel-max for $119.
People can spend there hard earned money where they want.. but I hate to write checks in the middle of a day-dream personally. Some thought is required before I put the signature on the bottom line.
Regards... and off to the Atlanta WW Show to day-dream but not write any checks.. ha.. ha...
Sarge..
Edited 1/25/2008 10:14 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hi Sarge,
I agree with you. Over $900 for a single use mortising machine is doggy pooh to me. Not only single function, but limited single function to boot!
I really like my mortising machine I bought from a guy down south.:-) Lots of flexibility as I'm exploring using it also as a drill press. So far, very good results and more flexibility than other DPs. Haven't yet explored angled mortises, yet.
Oh and another thing for ya. I bought a LV ½" hollow chisel mortising bit. NICE! Based on another of your posts I'll check it for ½" exact when it warms up. It was -16° this AM!
Have fun at the show and be sure to let us know what you find that's interesting.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It was 17 degrees in Atlanta, Bob. But my natural gas space heater is slinging out some BTU's and I'll be down in the shop in about 45 minutes. I will fore-go the Show today as I'm not fooling with Friday traffic in Atlanta latter. I got off to a late start and will go tomorrow when all others are home and not commutting to work.
If you want to see shop pics, I just took some for Old Fred a few minutes ago and posted them to him in Which Drill Press. Watch your step as a chest of drawers is in progress. :>)
Sarge..
talk you out buying it.
ok
Too much money, and it's only been out a year. Another one will be along shortly with some improvements. I don't have one, but the reviews aren't without complaints. Location pins get in the way,only three sizes of tenons are two that come to mind.
Next question.. can I paint 4 Barr timber-framing mortise chiesel handles from 1" up with 1/2 oz. of the green one or would it not adhere to a non FT product?
Ahh.. never mind! I think I better go finish that back frame on the chest of drawers after the first question... :>)
Sarge..
I do not have a Domino, I find it very attractive, I believe the reviews I've read that loose tenons are just as strong as "real" tenons (I've also watched most of David Mark's shows), but I would need to get into woodworking at a professional level before the price would make sense. It would seem to me that the limitations are:
1) cost, which I think is a real issue for most non-professionals - I would think there will be numerous "clones" appearing soon for $250 (or $80 at HF for a poor quality version) - waiting a year doesn't cause me any problem...
2) the tenons are well-engineered birch, but it would seem that same-species tenons would work better
3) I want thicker tenons! I realize why the Domino cannot do thick tenons, I realize that two or three tenons in one joint is probably stronger than one thick tenon, but I want thicker tenons! (OK, so I've got a defective brain...)The convenience of the Domino is really quite spectacular. Look at all the testimonials where someone has used 100 tenons - or would he have only used 30 if he didn't have a Domino? But it would seem (to me who hasn't done this yet) that an alternative could be setup that would limit the time penalty -
1) a dedicated mortise station costs valuable floor space but is vastly more versatile, although I would set it up with "standard" jigs for the 2 or 3 tenon sizes I usually use (just to make normal mortises quicker)
2) I would have a dedicated router at the mortise station - I have numerous routers, and I could use one of my lesser routers
3) I would probably also have a dedicated router (an old Craftsman piece of junk) with a round-over bit and templates so I can cut my tenons quickly in whatever thickness I want - 1/8 would work regardless of how thick or long the tenon was(I wish the guy with the sliding mortise machine would give a rough comparison of the time using the two, and whether he still uses his sliding mortise machine often because he doesn't want to be restricted to the Domino-sized tenons.)Of course my rant is silly, because most of us are tool junkies and you can't change a zealots mind ("zealot" is a complimentary term in my book). And I certainly believe the Domino feels good, is an innovative design, is well engineered, and is well executed.
To me, the biggest deterent is the learning curve. I know; some will say "oh, it's so easy". That's what the guy told me when I went to buy the programmable VCR, too. Probably, if someone offered a class on using it, I might take it and buy it.
To me, the biggest deterent is the learning curve. I know; some will say "oh, it's so easy". That's what the guy told me when I went to buy the programmable VCR, too. Probably, if someone offered a class on using it, I might take it and buy it.
It is as easy as it promotes. If you have ever used a biscuit jointer it's the same. If you can put to pieces of wood down, draw a strait line and put the marker on the tool on that line, you can cut floating tenons. I was skeptical until I used it. It's not cheap, but then what is anymore.
Here's your class:
http://www.festoolusa.com/pages.aspx?docid=553Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I'll look at it. Thank you.
Tom,I just visited your website. Nice work. I am a fan of Greene and Greene, but have not built the breadth of work that you show. I have a shop built horizontal mortisor that uses a router motor mounted on a x/y stage. It works really well, especially when building a set of chairs. I built a clamping jig for each mortise, and these jigs are usually pretty simple.My question to you is this: How simple is it to use the domino tool when cutting mortises for chair work? In particular, cutting a mortise into the end of a curved back slat looks pretty difficult with the domino. (I have not yet test driven the tool) I would appreciate your input on this.Another question: Do you see a significant difference in the mortise width when cutting into end grain versus long grain?Thanks and best regards,
Tom
Tom,
I would probably use my multi router for most of the chair joints. I think a single wider tenon would be stronger than two domino's were a rail meets the leg.
Tom
Thanks for the response to Tom, as I was also wondering about the versatility of the FT on chair rails. It is a great machine for what it is and I think a lot of mission with slats would warrant it if I were commercial.
But.. I do face the reality of "what it is" and I'm not sure some do that with the hype it carriess. Just my opinion of course.
Sarge..
Trying to communicate what the DOMINO is and can do is sort of like trying to explain the advantages of the newly invented printing press - to a scribe; a word processor to a writer use to his Underwood; CAD to an inking pen draftsman; color to a color blind person; the Apple MacIntosh to a Command Line computer person; . . . Yes, much of what it can do is familiar - but how it does it isn't. How long it takes to do "it" has to be seen to be believed. Obvious if you see it used and play with it - but hard to explain with just word - and a picture or two.No, it's not THE Wonder Tool - the Swiss Army Pocket Knife of woodworking tools. I've got a five function Robland X31 combi - and it, and its far more expensive Felder cousin, doen't Do It All.What the DOMINO does do is make it quick and easy to cut mortises - in side grain or end grain - with the minimum of layout and set up time.Yes, the Dowel Max / BeadLok (or their clones) will do mortises. But there's a bit of fiddling and fussing and the speed is nowhere close to the DOMINO for the first mortise or subsequent mortises, or subsequent parts.Look at the attached picture. Note that the top of the part is curved. Now think through what you'd need to do to cut those mortises using the mortising method you prefer - router and jig. multi-router, horizontal mortiser/boring machine or chisel and bit mortising machine. Now think in terms of time - and think in terms of time to cut a biscuit slot - not the set up time - just the time to cut the slot. Would you be somewhat surprised to learn that all six mortises could be cut in well under two minutes?Could you show an absolute novice woodworker - or anyone for that matter - how to cut the mortises. You cut the first two mortises - then hand them the tool and have them cut the next four using your current preferred mortising method?A "not obvious at all" thing about the DOMINO is the ability to easily record, and later repeat, the "settings" on the DOMINO
1. Bit Diameter (5, 6, 8 or 10mm - only one number required)
2. Fence to Centerline setting (5,8,10,11,12.5,18 or 20 pick one)
3. Stop Pin to Centerline (37mm or anything from 100 to 205mm in 1mm increments)
4. Mortise Width setting (O slop, 6mm slop or 10mm slop)
5. Depth of Cut setting (12 15, 20, 25, 28 mms - pick one)
6. Optional Stock Thickness Six numbers written right on the part - where they won't be seen of course - that's all you need to Do It Again. No drawings or notes to make - and try to find again later. If you have the piece of furniture you made, the info is written right on the parts.
BD 5
FC 12.5
SP 103
MW 0
DC 15
ST 0.75I' m really getting a feeling of inadequacy when trying to convey the value of the DOMINO with just words. pcitures and illustrations. Find someone who has one and see if they'll show you some things then let you play with it.And as far as price goes - I bought the TREND M&T Jig ($250) and already had the plunge router ($225). Worked but ....
Bought the General Intl 75-750M ($800) and a set of Fisch chisels and bits ($100+). Worked and was great for through mortises in 3x3 and 4x4 bench legs, but . . .
Had the horizontal mortiser on my Robland X31 but it was a PITA when it came to end grain mortising and the set up time and reproducability was a PITA. Been There - Done That - Got the DOMINO - I'm Done Looking
Thank you for the onfo Charlie. I will drop by the Domino booth tomorrow at the Atlanta WW Show and watch a demo. If I have questions to field at that point, the Domino boys can show while explaining. I realize some of the things it can do, but not all. Speed of replication is one I am aware of.
By tomorrow I should know what it can and what it can't straight from the Domino horse's mouth.
Thanks for the information you posted.
Sarge..
Don't count on a Festool rep at a woodworking show for a good show and tell - they've got too many products to try and sell. NONE of the vendors selling at the woodworking show I bought my DOMINO at knew much about it. Only one of the three that had were selling them had one out and plugged in. And that vendor had four pieces of wood to play with and some biscuits - no real world example.The most recent woodworking show I attended - back in November had a Festool booth with a rep. At lunch I sat down and struck up a conversation with a guy about new stuff at this show. I mentioned the DOMINO. He'd seen the Festool booth and had seen ads for it, but couldn't get much out of the Festool rep. I took him over to the booth, asked the rep if he had the outriggers and the narrow end grain attachments. Had to get him to bring the DOMINOs "systainer" over and show him what I was asking for. I then showed the guy I'd brought over the "presets" , what they do and why they're so handy, then ran through the two attachments. Answered some questions and left him with the rep.A little while later a guy who had overheard me talking about the DOMINO found me and quized me on the DOMINO and then headed for the Festool booth to buy one. I asked "Don't you want to try the damned thing out BEFORE you buy?" "No, you're enthusiasm sold me. And this sounds like a tool that owners will be finding applications Festool haven't even thought of."Later, while talking with a guy about a set of router bits for doing Maloof type leg to seat joints, the first guy came over to tell me he'd picked up a DOMINO and the Accessories.I've since showed a very accomplished woodworker how quick and easy it was to use the DOMINO on a table - aprons to legs and stretchers to legs. Offered to let him borrow the DOMINO for a while to try it out. He thanked me but said "I'm sold and I want my own." He has sinced e-mailed me some photos of the two english sycamore (actually maple) tables he did after bringing his DOMINO home.This is a tool that, while looking sort of familiar, isn't. Some of how it works is obvious, some misleading without a manual and some not obvious at all, even with the manual that comes with it.So, take two pieces of sample table legs and an apron and try it on a simple, real, application, If you've done these joints other ways, you know that being off - even just a little - and either the top of the apron often sits a tad higher or lower than the top of the leg. Won't happen with the DOMINO cut joints.Ramble mode - OFF
Ha.. ha... I know what you mean about some of the representation at the shows. Unless you go to IWF here in Atlanta, you get the local distributor presenting the line and maybe they have someone that knows and maybe not.
I will see Scott Box (VP of Steel City Tool-works) tomorrow at the local distributors booth. Steel City does have the local bring the machines and they fly or drive in and work with them on their machines. I was impressed with that as I go to a number of shows and a lot of local shows are not top notch, even though Atlanta is well represented as one of the larger markets with most distributors here in town. Not many tools you can't see physically in this areal
I will check em out.. as Woodcraft and Highland Woodworking are both distributors. But.. I have my doubts either will be at the show. I'm still hoping the home-boys from Festool USA show.. but reality is reality.
BTW.. I am not personally looking to get one. I am well out-fitted as I am a amateur with no need for speed or deadlines. I cut M&T's for years by hand.. had a small bench mortiser.. can cut them with a router and have a mortiser with a little more capability than most, I suppose.
I just like to stay abreast of the machinery scene as I have been involved in machines for a long time.
Regards...
Sarge..
The grip is kind of big if you have arthritis
If you are working on 3/4 in stock or less and place the stock on a table or bench your angle will be off for some cuts you have to over hang the work over the edge of table to stop this the bottom of the tool holds you up.
that is the best negatives I can come up with I will never go back to a bisect except to get rid of them on utility project.
Buy a WoodRat instead. You can buy the same size router bits as the Domino uses from Woodcraft, then buy the little wood inserts. The 'Rat does everything the Domino does, maybe a bit better. Plus, then you will have a new tool that will cut about every other type of joinery you can think of as well.
I already had a 'Rat, so I'll never buy a Domino. Besides, that is a lot of money for a one trick pony.
Me too!
knuts,
Just went to the Woodrat WEBsite and watched a demo. Now that makes a whole lot more sense tom
Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The way politics goes over there, I would buy something truely made in the USA. You never know who will be the next target for a war.
There are so many ways to spend money, but I try not to buy anything which relies upon dedicated accessories which may not be obtainable a few years down the line, or even in the short term when they are really needed. I have a few dowelling jigs with imperial bushes, and now most dowels and drills are metric.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=24110 The DIY in FWW is better. Then there's the Grizzly G0540 http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G0540 $350 plus shipping
For a little more ($1,000) I'd go with the http://www.lagunatools.com/platinum3.htm
The domino is nice for the guy on site or someone with a small shop. You can't beat a dedicated slot mortiser for speed, accuracy and simplicity. The floor model can use the Domino tenons but you can make your own larger tenons as well. Plus the slot mortiser can be used as a horizontal drill press of doweling machine so it's more than a one trick pony. I've been using slot mortisers for 25 years and can't see the point of getting a Domino for my needs.
Sorry, not gonna get what you are looking for from me. I have posted several times on this forum about how great the domino is. INDISPENSABLE. And I waiting a long time because of the price. give up and go for it. PMM
I too am very tempted by the Domino. The problem is that I am also tempted by lots of other tools. So for what it's worth, here's how I tame my animal instincts driving me be buy more tools: I start with what I really want to make and reference everything back to that. I don't start with imagining what I could make with the new, all-mighty tool. (Those latter things seem never to get built.)
Will the Domino allow me to make a project that I couldn't otherwise make? Probably not. Will it allow me to make it better? Probably not. More enjoyable to make? Doubt it. Faster? Ok, yes.
Now, how much of the total time of the project will be spent on mortises and tenons with methods that I have already mastered and have good tools for? How much time do I really save?
So if I'm dying to make a hall table with shaped legs and bent laminated aprons, and it contains 8 M&Ts, I really save very little portion of the total work time with the Domino. And more directions to read, more noise and dust to make, less money to buy really cool wood... If, on the other hand, I wanted to make 3 outdoor benches in teak with a dozen slats in the back of each, yeah, bring on the Domino.
So the idea for me is to always look first at what I want to build and ask questions from there.
And if and when the time is right, I'll get a Domino, or if I wait long enough, the new/ improved/less expensive model that inevitably seems to come along.
Good luck and happy woodworking!
I think you hit the nail on the head with your last statement about waiting for a knock off, someone is probably already working on it and it will probably be half the price and 95% as good. I would be tempted if I didn't already have one. I bought a Porter cable biscuit jointer instead of a Lamello for the exact same reason why spend $700 when you can get something that works just as well for $200.
I think your way of looking at a tool purchase is good, you shouldn't buy a Domino because it's the latest and greatest you should get it because you have a need for it. There are way to many tools that are the latest and greatest sitting around collecting dust on shelves.
Tom
You're spot on. I couldn't agree with what you said more.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
It works for me.
Now, how to tame an insatiable desire to acquire cool wood. I don't know, sometimes the wood generates the idea for the project so I think it's often a good thing to drool over some beautiful and unique boards.
Anyway, best wishes for happy woodworking.
Hi Chris,
You might find this interesting. Check out (advanced search) post # 36263.1 Very nifty, little machine and it takes up hardly any floor space. I have never used a Domino but from what I understand you need to clamp or secure your work piece during use. So why not use a slot mortiser? Plus, it will produce a wider range of mortise sizes as well.
Slot mortising was already mentioned earlier in this thread but the above post has a few photos.
Paul
The thing about the high cost is that you only think about that when you buy the tool...
I have yet to meet someone who has a Domino that doesn't rave about how it's taken them up a level in terms of productivity and/or capability.
I see you read my post before I deleted it. Still believe every word of it, but don't have the energy to defend it.
I think about how tasty eating cardboard is when I combine woodworking from plans and measured drawings (which I do often) and cutting all the joinery on said canned project with admittedly well-designed machines from Festo and other companies. I'm looking hard, but I don't see much if any craftsmanship or creativity in that scenario. When the so called "workmanship of risk" has been more or less eliminated, IMO that's where the line has been crossed to making factory furniture. In today's world, you don't need 100,000 square feet to make factory furniture. It's easy enough to do with a two-car garage and a fat wallet.
For me, imperfect perfection is where it's at.
I think the OP is in business and the circumstances are different when there are bills to pay.
Edited 1/23/2008 10:17 am ET by BossCrunk
When the so called "workmanship of risk" has been more or less eliminated, IMO that's where the line has been crossed to making factory furniture. In today's world, you don't need 100,000 square feet to make factory furniture. It's easy enough to do with a two-car garage and a fat wallet.
For me, imperfect perfection is where it's at.
My sentiments exactly. You have a gift for expressing these things, Boss.
I remember the moment I consciously realized (or perhaps I should say "articulated in my own mind" as I think we all "know" it) that the art - the beauty - the quality - happens in the risk as manifested in the "imperfections."
I don't want no Domino.
Makes me think of Van Morrison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aXHWcnl4es
Maybe Festoon will come out with a version that makes bigger M&Ts:
the "Fats Domino"
Samson,
You mean it's a Moondance with a Festoon!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Huh, you wanna dance with Festus?
View Image
"Maybe Festoon will come out with a version that makes bigger M&Ts:the 'Fats Domino'"Damn, I wish I'd thought of that one...
Clearly a topic of much interest! I didn't read the whole thread, so at the risk of repeating someone, I'd like to throw in two bits for the Leigh industries FMT (frame mortise and tennon jig) If you already own a plunge router, this jig comes at around the same price as the domino with all the attatchments and is IMO a much more versatile setup
The Leight FMT has the same depth of mortise limitations as the DOMINO - the depth the router bit can cut.It also requires laying out at least one of each type of mortise to be cut - the two centerlines which intersect at right angles of the mortise - in order to be able to set the the jig to the part. And setting those stops is an "eyeballing" procedure - even with the cross hairs thing. With the DOMINO you don't need layout lines - you can work out the settings - presets or set yourself - on paper, with a pencil - numerically rather than graphically.When cutting mortises in end grain - for loose tenon M&T joints - the part has to be oriented vertically. So cutting mortises in the end of a part longer than maybe 40" requires that you raise the jig higher - and attach it to something. And you still have to operate the router at that height. With the DOMINO, all parts can be mortise while the part is horizontal - on your bench - or on the floor - with your standing or kneeling.With the Leight FMT you have to clamp the part to the jig - and on end grain mortises you're pushing down on the part. And while you're tightening that clamp you have to hold the part where you want it to be while you're tightening the clamp. With the DOMINO you often don't need to clamp the part at all - your downward pressure on the top of the "fence" is often enough to hold the part. The DOMINO is registered to the part whereas, with the jig, the jig is registered to the part.Go through the illustrations and notes on the following page and then think of using a bicsuit cutter - but cutting the mortise, not a curved slot. Note that you need to set up the jig twice - one set up for each end of the part . The "pins" on the DOMINO eliminate the multiple set ups process.http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DOMINO/Jigs/DOMINO_Compare3.htmlI have only a vague idea of how you'd cut mortises on a curved part like a chair back with the FMT.As for "only three sizes of loose tenons" with the DOMINO it's actually FOUR - 5mm, 6mm, 8mm and 10mm thicknesses. If you want tenons wider than the ones Festool makes - make them yourself - the DOMINO will cut mortises 6 and 10 mm wider than the Festool loose tenons.
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